So does Scorching Ray only work on swarms at CL7?It works no matter what! It's not a "Targeted" spell. It's a ray, a weapon. You can take weapon focus in it.Yes, but each ray only affects one creature. Overall, the spell affects a specific number of creatures (depending on caster level). The fact that the spell can only affect 1-3 creatures means that swarms are immune to it.
To contrast; How many creatures can fireball affect?
No! Each ray only affects one TARGET. TARGET != Creatures. The ray has no limit to targets. Just a limit on the number of rays.
And a Fireball can affect as many creatures within it's range. It is also not a targeted spell. Kinda cool.
So does Scorching Ray only work on swarms at CL7?It works no matter what! It's not a "Targeted" spell. It's a ray, a weapon. You can take weapon focus in it.A ray is not a weapon, it just is affected by some spells that affect weapons, and can be selected for some weapon feats. From the FAQ:
Certain special abilities (for instance rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts) can specifically be selected with feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. They still aren’t considered a type of weapon for other rules; they are not part of any weapon group and don’t qualify for the effects of fighter weapon training, warpriest sacred weapon, magus arcane pool, paladin divine bond, or any other such ability.
New info to me. Thanks!
Still doesn't change the fact that a ray is not a targeted spell.
No! Each ray only affects one TARGET. TARGET != Creatures. The ray has no limit to targets. Just a limit on the number of rays.
And a Fireball can affect as many creatures within it's range. It is also not a targeted spell. Kinda cool.
Exactly, fireball does not have a limit to the creatures it effects, so it works on swarms.
Scorching ray only affects 1-3 creatures, depending on caster level, so it is not effective on swarms.
Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming.
Rays only effect one creature. Disintegrate specifically calls this out. Other rays don't, but they also don't state that they effect more than one creature.
Each melee attack affects one creature, but you can make melee attacks against a swarm, hmm?
Damage is an effect of an attack roll. Can you show me where it says otherwise? (Serious question. If you can, please do )
Swarms are immune to spells that target a specific number of creatures. Not attacks. (Some swarms are immune to weapon damage though.)
No! Each ray only affects one TARGET. TARGET != Creatures. The ray has no limit to targets. Just a limit on the number of rays.So I can target as many creatures as I want with scorching ray?
Nope, only target as many targets equal to the number of rays you have.
1 Ray = 1 Target
2 Rays = 1 or 2 Targets
etc...
What I am trying say is that a Ray is not a "Target" based spell. Polymorph is a Target based spell. Slow is a "Target" based spell. Target is a term in spells that is under the description of the spell.
A ray just needs a successful attack against the target (this one is different from "Target" of a spell), just like a weapon, or a splash weapon, or anything else that requires an attack roll.
No, they are immune to spells OR EFFECTS. Everyone keeps thinking the two are one and the same.
A melee attack is a melee attack. It is not an effect.
An example of a single target EFFECT would be Smite Evil.
What I am trying say is that a Ray is not a "Target" based spell. Polymorph is a Target based spell. Slow is a "Target" based spell. Target is a term in spells that is under the description of the spell.
A ray just needs a successful attack against the target (this one is different from "Target" of a spell), just like a weapon, or a splash weapon, or anything else that requires an attack roll.
Target based spells don't need attack rolls to hit. You just say, "I am casting slow on the Thing" and the thing makes its saving throw.
Ray spells you have to make a ranged attack. There's a few other spells that are not target but do single target damage.
Acid arrow and acid splash are the ones that come to mind immediately.
Effect one arrow of acid
An arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels you possess, the acid, unless neutralized, lasts for another round (to a maximum of 6 additional rounds at 18th level), dealing another 2d4 points of damage in each round.
Effect one missile of acid
You fire a small orb of acid at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The orb deals 1d3 points of acid damage. This acid disappears after 1 round.
Do you think these spells are effective on swarms too?
Edit adding some more:
Effect single fist-sized blob of sticky mud
When you cast this spell, you conjure a single ball of sticky mud and launch it at an enemy's face as a ranged touch attack. If the mudball hits, the target is blinded. Each round at the beginning of its turn, a creature blinded by this spell can attempt a Reflex saving throw to shake off the mud, ending the effect. The mudball can also be wiped off by the creature affected by it or by a creature adjacent to the creature affected by it as a standard action.
Effect one ball of ice and snow
You conjure a ball of packed ice and snow that you can throw at a single target as a ranged touch attack. The snowball deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 5d6) on a successful hit, and the target must make a successful Fortitude saving throw or be staggered for 1 round.
Effect fist-sized blob of webbing
You launch a ball of webbing at a target, which must make a save or be affected as if by a web spell occupying only the creature's space. If the creature saves or breaks free of the webbing, the remaining webs dissolve and the square is not considered difficult terrain. The spell has no effect if the target is not on or adjacent to a solid surface that can support the webbing.
What I am trying say is that a Ray is not a "Target" based spell.No one is disputing that. What is in dispute is if swarms are immune to just Targeted spells or spells with targets.
It is being disputed because people keep saying that "it only targets one creature so swarms are immune", but a Ray doesn't select a creature, it selects a target to be affected by the cold damage.
Swarms are a massive number of creatures that are one target. That's why we "attack the swarm" not "attack 5 bugs of the group"
What I am trying say is that a Ray is not a "Target" based spell. Polymorph is a Target based spell. Slow is a "Target" based spell. Target is a term in spells that is under the description of the spell.
A ray just needs a successful attack against the target (this one is different from "Target" of a spell), just like a weapon, or a splash weapon, or anything else that requires an attack roll.
Target based spells don't need attack rolls to hit. You just say, "I am casting slow on the Thing" and the thing makes its saving throw.
Ray spells you have to make a ranged attack. There's a few other spells that are not target but do single target damage.
Acid arrow and acid splash are the ones that come to mind immediately.
Effect one arrow of acid
An arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels you possess, the acid, unless neutralized, lasts for another round (to a maximum of 6 additional rounds at 18th level), dealing another 2d4 points of damage in each round.
Do you think these spells are effective on swarms too?Effect one missile of acid
You fire a small orb of acid at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The orb deals 1d3 points of acid damage. This acid disappears after 1 round.
Absolutely! Why wouldn't they? Do they have "Target: 1 (or more) 'something somethings'"? If not, then you can select the target of your attack roll just like you would a ranged attack.
and have it do nothing because it's a spell against a swarm!
and have it do nothing because it's a spell against a swarm!
Why would it do nothing? Swarms aren't immune to spells or energy damage (Typically, I suppose some special swarms are).
|
It is being disputed because people keep saying that "it only targets one creature so swarms are immune", but a Ray doesn't select a creature, it selects a target to be affected by the cold damage.
The caster aims the rays at a number of targets. Are the targets creatures? If so, it targets a number of creatures. Swarms are immune to spells and effects that target a specific number of creatures. Where do you disagree with the logic?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Absolutely! Why wouldn't they? Do they have "Target: 1 (or more) 'something somethings'"? If not, then you can select the target of your attack roll just like you would a ranged attack.
Swarms aren't immune to spells with the Target line. They are "immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures."
It is being disputed because people keep saying that "it only targets one creature so swarms are immune", but a Ray doesn't select a creature, it selects a target to be affected by the cold damage.The caster aims the ray at a number of targets. Are the targets creatures? If so, it targets a number of creatures. Swarms are immune to spells and effects that target a specific number of creatures. Where do you disagree with the logic?
The Alchemist throws his bomb at a number of targets. Are the targets creatures? If so, it targets a number of creatures. Swarms are immune to spells and effects that target a specific number of creatures. Where do you disagree with the logic?
Absolutely! Why wouldn't they? Do they have "Target: 1 (or more) 'something somethings'"? If not, then you can select the target of your attack roll just like you would a ranged attack.Swarms aren't immune to spells with the Target line. They are "immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures."
And that last part "that targets a specific number of creatures" is looking for spells with the "Target" line. In fact, show me a spell that has the "Target" line in the description that affects a swarm.
I will drop this discussion immediately if you do (provided the spell doesn't specifically calls out is is usable against swarms).
Where do you disagree with the logic?I don't. Where do you? Or would you like for this FAQ to include alchemist bomb damage under the list of things swarms are immune to?
They both work because you are attacking the swarm. The entire swarm is a single target. You can target a single target with a bomb, ray, bow, axe, sword, shield, or whatever that you can attack with.
Target in terms of spells are looking for that specific line of "Target: ..." in the description of the spell.
Absolutely! Why wouldn't they? Do they have "Target: 1 (or more) 'something somethings'"? If not, then you can select the target of your attack roll just like you would a ranged attack.Swarms aren't immune to spells with the Target line. They are "immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures."And that last part "that targets a specific number of creatures" is looking for spells with the "Target" line. In fact, show me a spell that has the "Target" line in the description that affects a swarm.
I will drop this discussion immediately if you do (provided the spell doesn't specifically calls out is is usable against swarms).
Grease.
Target one object or 10-ft. square
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.
Targets a 10 foot square, all creatures in the area are effected. Works on swarms.
Absolutely! Why wouldn't they? Do they have "Target: 1 (or more) 'something somethings'"? If not, then you can select the target of your attack roll just like you would a ranged attack.Swarms aren't immune to spells with the Target line. They are "immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures."And that last part "that targets a specific number of creatures" is looking for spells with the "Target" line. In fact, show me a spell that has the "Target" line in the description that affects a swarm.
I will drop this discussion immediately if you do (provided the spell doesn't specifically calls out is is usable against swarms).
Grease.
Targets a 10 foot square, all creatures in the...Target one object or 10-ft. square
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.
You can't target a swarm with this... You can't even target a human with this spell. It doesn't even affect swarms any more than it affects people... It affects it less as swarms can't "fall".
But if that's your argument, I'll walk away, obviously it must be hard to find even this.
EDIT: Also it would work no matter what, because it is a "Target" spell that does not specify a number of targets, just an area (or object if you choose).
The swarm has to make an reflex save or fall (unimportant, since swarms can't be prone). It also must make an acrobatics check to move through the area, and if it fails, it can't move. That is an effect of the spell, on the swarm, which works.
Many target spells specify: "one creature" or "creatures touched". Both of those are covered by the swarm immunity to spells which target a specific number of creatures.
I found another one.
Target creatures and objects in a 10-ft. spread
A shower of iridescent black particles clings to and extinguishes torches, lanterns, sunrods, and similar mundane light sources and dispels any spell of 2nd level or lower with the light descriptor (as dispel magic). Creatures in the area must make a Fortitude save or become fatigued.
The swarm has to make an reflex save or fall (unimportant, since swarms can't be prone). It also must make an acrobatics check to move through the area, and if it fails, it can't move. That is an effect of the spell, on the swarm, which works.
Many target spells specify: "one creature" or "creatures touched". Both of those are covered by the swarm immunity to spells which target a specific number of creatures.
I found another one.
Target creatures and objects in a 10-ft. spread
A shower of iridescent black particles clings to and extinguishes torches, lanterns, sunrods, and similar mundane light sources and dispels any spell of 2nd level or lower with the light descriptor (as dispel magic). Creatures in the area must make a Fortitude save or become fatigued.
Another spell that naturally goes around the swarm's immunity to "Target" based spells as it does not specify a number of targets in the Target line of the spell description. I still wonder where that line is on any of the ray spells...
Rays use the same targeting rules as weapons. Therefore, if a swarm is immune to weapons, it is also immune to rays.
Swarms are never immune to weapons (unless it is specific by the swarm), they can be immune to weapon damage. But rays typically don't do weapon damage, usually they are energy damage.
And that last part "that targets a specific number of creatures" is looking for spells with the "Target" line. In fact, show me a spell that has the "Target" line in the description that affects a swarm.
I will drop this discussion immediately if you do (provided the spell doesn't specifically calls out is is usable against swarms).
Another spell that naturally goes around the swarm's immunity to "Target" based spells as it does not specify a number of targets in the Target line of the spell description. I still wonder where that line is on any of the ray spells...
Swarm's are not immune to target based spells. They are immune to spells which affect a specific number of creatures. That happens to be 99% of the Target spells, but not all of them as I have shown.
Swarms are never immune to weapons (unless it is specific by the swarm), they can be immune to weapon damage. But rays typically don't do weapon damage, usually they are energy damage.
I agree, they are not categorically immune to weapons. That includes thrown splash weapons, and alchemist bombs. They are immune to spells which only effect a specific number of creatures, which Ray spells are, as you target a specific creature to make an attack roll against.
| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Here's my suggestion for a FAQ question on this:
Are swarms immune to spells which require a ranged attack roll to hit a single target(ex Acid Arrow, Ray of Frost) even if the spell doesn't specifically state it targets a single creature?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
WARNING: The following spoiler block contains a long, rambling post.
So if I understand what's being debated, it comes down to this:
"A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons."
Ok, such a swarm can be dispatched by any sort of weapon, it just takes half damage from swords and arrows.
"A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage."
Here it gets tricky. No weapon can harm this kind of swarm. Not even the classic torch (after all, the battle poi is a weapon, even if it does fire damage). It doesn't just mean it's immune to piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage, as there are non-weapon attacks that inflict this type of damage. Ray spells are "weapon-like", so I'd assume they fall into this category, as would a Flame Blade.
Also, we get this line.
"A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind."
While I understand the assertion that a ray spell doesn't specifically state it has a single target, there are simply no rules stating a ray has more than one target, or that it targets an area. Two tiny creatures sharing a square are not subject to the same ray of frost. Scorching ray, in fact, shows that a ray needs to explicitly state if if it can have more than one target, the default is a single target, just like any other attack. Otherwise, one could dispatch a swarm with a shocking grasp. More on this below.
Not that I'd mind that, because, quite honestly, the rules for what can harm a swarm is dangerously narrow. Especially when you consider this line:
"A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells."
As noted, splash weapons do affect an area. However, only the target struck takes the full damage, the splash damage affects all creatures within 5' of the target. So where does this leave us?
1: as long as an attack affects an area, no matter what the effect of the attack is, it deals increased damage to a swarm. So a splash weapon can target the entire swarm, and inflict increased damage on a hit, because it can deal splash damage to an area.
Counterpoint: but no spell can do this, even if it functions in a similar manner (full damage to a single target, less damage to things near it), because of the rules saying it is immune to such spells. Unless, of course, we come to the conclusion that weapon-like spells are not subject to the "number of targets" immunity.
2: only attacks that affect an area can harm a swarm. So a swarm would only be subject to splash damage from splash weapons, as that's the only damage that affects an area.
Counterpoint: Which is dangerous in the extreme, because that effectively eliminates most non-magical means to deal with swarms.
I really hope I missed something. I've never cared for swarms, but the more I look at how they work, the less I see them as an actual enemy a group can fight. It reminds me of true golems, where only a very narrow list of magical effects can even harm them, supposedly to give the martials the ability to shine. Except worse, because a swarm can be both be pretty much invulnerable to martials AND require a narrow list of spell effects to finish them off!
I'm done discussing. I promise this will be my last post in this thread.
I'm just against the idea that the guy with a torch is going to be more effective against a swarm than a guy that fires ice out of their hands.
So if I was judging the encounter, even for PFS, ray of frost would be an acceptable spell against a swarm... at least until an FAQ negates that concept.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
To be fair, as I understand it a torch is ineffective against swarms as well.
It's not what I want the rules to be, it's what they are.
You are correct, a torch is not effective. 3.5 D&D gives swarms a vulnerability to torch damage (they did 1d3 damage to swarms), but listed it in the swarm creature entry of the Monster Manual, not the swarm type rules. Paizo decided to split the various swarms up, putting them with their base creatures instead of a single location, and so that rule was lost in Pathfinder. It was also the location of the rule that let flaming weapons and similar deal energy damage to swarms even if the base weapon was ignored, as well as the damage from thrown lit lanterns (1d4).
Unless they moved the rule and I totally missed it.
|
So if I was judging the encounter, even for PFS, ray of frost would be an acceptable spell against a swarm... at least until an FAQ negates that concept.
Just be sure to preface your ruling with a statement to the effect of "The following is how I interpret the rules, and should not be expected at every table you play at, so base any future character decisions on the assumption that this tactic may or may not work".
1: as long as an attack affects an area, no matter what the effect of the attack is, it deals increased damage to a swarm. So a splash weapon can target the entire swarm, and inflict increased damage on a hit, because it can deal splash damage to an area.
2: only attacks that affect an area can harm a swarm. So a swarm would only be subject to splash damage from splash weapons, as that's the only damage that affects an area.
1) Yes, area attacks affect swarms absolutely.
2) Only spells which affect an area can harm a swarm. Single target spells cannot. Weapon attacks can harm Tiny creature swarms. Fine/Diminutive swarms are immune to weapon damage, but not other sources of damage. All swarms are immune to spells which target a single creature (including rays as evidenced by disintegrate). I would allow a flaming sword to do 1d6 fire damage to a fine swarm, as the fire damage is not weapon damage.
Most casters do prepare area spells, like fireball and lightning bolt. Both of these have full damage to a swarm (plus 50% for being area).
Here's my suggestion for a FAQ question on this:
Are swarms immune to spells which require a ranged attack roll to hit a single target(ex Acid Arrow, Ray of Frost) even if the spell doesn't specifically state it targets a single creature?
Started a new thread for this so better chance they read your FAQ.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
*Groan*
The rules are clear.
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons
Not "splash damage". "Splash weapons". Why do people have to try to inject ambiguity where there is none?
Guys, seriously. You all know this wasn't intended, so why even bother? Why are we so obsessed with proving a point nobody actually cares about? It's literally just arguing for the sake of winning, which is basically the Rules Questions subforum in a nutshell.
Here is how we know swarms don't get affected by ranged touch attacks as questioned.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate),
DISINTEGRATE
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a lodestone and a pinch of dust)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect ray...
A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit....
Rays like any other attack roll based attack only target one creature unless otherwise specified.
Also the word "target" is used in more than one way. It is a specific way to aim a spell for spells such as "hold person". It is also used to mean the victim chosen for your attack. So if I target someone with a ray they are a target. If I target them with hold person they are also a target.