In Golarion, I mean. RL, of course, it was, well, not exactly philosophers...
Constraining characters to one of nine alignments is a philosphical system worthy of the Greeks, isn't it? Seeing complex, multi-faceted personalities in terms of a 3x3 grid...
"But it's reality!" you protest. "Reflected in the Outer Planes!" Sure, it helps a lot if you can travel extra-planar. But I doubt that Asmodeus has mounted a massive "Lawful Evils welcome" sign at the gates of Hell. Someone had to get to know these various outer planes and then try to find a systemic way to describe them: philosophers -- or maybe theologians.
So whose? Does the grid go all the way back to the aboleths? Azlant? Thassilon? Or were they all groping with a complex reality that only a civilization post-Earthfall codified?
I'm running Jade Regent, and looking at changing the alignment system for a different, Japanese-feeling Minkai. The effort has made me curious what name to use for the Inner Sea understanding, which seems reflective of western & specifically Christian notions of "good" and "evil." (Funny, that! ;) )
PS: If anyone can point me to discussions of others who have looked at Japanese alignments, I would be very grateful!
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It wasn't philosophers, it was scientists (if there's a difference in the early days). I mean...you can use the Detect Alignment and actually figure out how Alignment works and what behaviors it results in via observation.
Heck, a Zone of Truth, a Phylactery of Faithfulness, and some atheists of all Alignments, and you can do really solid empirical testing on how it works.
The names are a little arbitrary, and probably come from the denizens of Heaven and the other Upper Planes, but the actual way Alignment works? Empirically observable with very low level characters, actually.
I'm running Jade Regent, and looking at changing the alignment system for a different, Japanese-feeling Minkai. (...)
PS: If anyone can point me to discussions of others who have looked at Japanese alignments, I would be very grateful!
for those of us GMing characters from Minkai, can you share whatever system you come up with?
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house Gixx of Absalom?
for those of us GMing characters from Minkai, can you share whatever system you come up with?
I'm running Jade Regent, and looking at changing the alignment system for a different, Japanese-feeling Minkai. (...)
PS: If anyone can point me to discussions of others who have looked at Japanese alignments, I would be very grateful!
Sure!
It was created by a famous philosopher scientist genious named Gygax ...
Sure, but WHAT was he? An aboleth? An Azlanti?
OK, if low-level spells can do it, did they always know how to cast those spells? I'm thinking that knowledge of the alignment system came first...
ETA: Although it sounds like canon isn't available here.
Let me approach it this way, then. Do aboleths access the same outer planes we do? Are there aboleths on those planes?
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OK, if low-level spells can do it, did they always know how to cast those spells? I'm thinking that knowledge of the alignment system came first...
That's very unlikely. A 3rd level Cleric can do all the necessary spell work, and as soon as people have deities they're likely to have Clerics...who have access to the entire spell list.
Morals, ethics.. is there another real world dimension that would go on the alignment chart?
For some home games, I've toyed with the inclusion of 'self' and 'other'. XD They're a sort of motivational alignment, and mostly exist to provide context to the main two parts. The basic gist is whether your focus is on yourself ("I strive to perfect myself, fulfill my greed, etc."), or on others ("I want to help people who need it, burn all the orphanages, etc.). On a grid, these would be 'up' and 'down'.
I asked James Jacobs about this - if the characters and creatures in the Pathfinder universe are aware of the nine different alignments, and also which one they belong to. He answered that they are not, and that alignments are a rules abstraction, like levels or challenge rating. So, at least in Mr. Jacobs take on it (and if I understood him correctly) alignments are not a "reality" exactly. The Abyss is Chaotic Evil in the way that Dvork the Brave is a Fighter/Cleric 4/2 with a 17 Strength.
Which should mean that a Barbazu devil is as unlikely to say "I'm Lawful Evil, and so is this lemure I just summoned" as it is to say "I'm CR 5 and this lemure is CR 1". But it could say "It would take about half a dozen of these little lemure guys to give me a good fight" as readily as it might say "sure, me and this lemure share the same basic views on things. In contrast to that demon over there who is just totally anarchic and untrustworthy. They always are!"
Of course this is up to each GM, but it's a way to look at it that I like. Having nine "slots" that people and creatures are aware of and talk about is just too silly for me, just like it would be with people sitting around the campfire discussing what class they should level up in when they've acquired 2000 more xp. It's something that exists in the world of Golarion, but represented as alignments in the rules as a simplification and abstraction.
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Still, Deadmanwalking is correct in that alignment is empirically observable. So Clerics will probably know about that there are spells they can't cast (or rather, that only clerics of certain gods can cast). They will observe that you can either channel positive or negative energy according to your belief (and that their obviously gods whose followers can choose. They can detect different auras with different strength on clerics of their and other beliefs.
So personally I find it hard to believe, that there is no science (theology, if you will) trying to figure out those differences and to order them in a system. In the end, you'd get the nine alignment system or at least an approximation of that.
So maybe, this knowledge has all been collected by Pharasman priests (given that Pharasma decides where to send the souls of the deceased, at least she and her followers would know abourt the differences), and if you don't want it to be widely known, this collection was probably stolen and hidden by the followers of the Reaper of Reputation. I think you could actually make a point, that the gods probably don't want people to think about them in these categories for obviously very selfish reasons.
I'm running Jade Regent, and looking at changing the alignment system for a different, Japanese-feeling Minkai. The effort has made me curious what name to use for the Inner Sea understanding, which seems reflective of western & specifically Christian notions of "good" and "evil." (Funny, that! ;) )PS: If anyone can point me to discussions of others who have looked at Japanese alignments, I would be very grateful!
Nothing Japanese but system wise take a look a the Pendragon RPG's personality traits system for inspiration - full description here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendragon_(role-playing_game)) but in short the idea was to have a dozen pairs of opposed traits, each with a score - Chaste / Lustful, Energetic / Lazy, Forgiving / Vengeful, Generous / Selfish etc
Each had a score from 1-20 that mirrored - e.g. Generous 15 / Selfish 5
The key concept relevant to your post is that the game then had different lists of which were considered the key virtues based on your character's religion and culture - so Chivalric Knights got a bonus based scores in Energetic, Generous, Forgiving, Just, Modest, Temperate, and Valorous but Wotanic religion characters were instead expected to be Generous, Honest, Proud, Worldly, Reckless and Indulgent
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In Jade Regent there are systems to track Reputation and Honor. They provide some clues on what different cultures value (Norse and Japanese respectively)
Those are in addition to alignment though and are mostly social constructs rather than innate metaphysical properties
There is no Smite Honorless Dog
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I asked James Jacobs about this - if the characters and creatures in the Pathfinder universe are aware of the nine different alignments, and also which one they belong to. He answered that they are not, and that alignments are a rules abstraction, like levels or challenge rating. So, at least in Mr. Jacobs take on it (and if I understood him correctly) alignments are not a "reality" exactly. The Abyss is Chaotic Evil in the way that Dvork the Brave is a Fighter/Cleric 4/2 with a 17 Strength.
Could you link this statement?
Because that doesn't make a lot of sense with a couple of things that very definitely exist in-world. Most notably the Outer Planes (of which there is one for each Alignment in a clear and direct fashion), and the Harrow (which is organized into Alignment, and has a reading structure based on Alignment as well). Plus, of course, the aforementioned Detect (Alignment) or Protection from (Alignment) spells...
Which leads me to believe that you may have misinterpreted what was said.
EDIT: Ah! Found it.
To quote:
1) Alignment is an abstraction, and while players ABSOLUTELY know their own characters' alignments, folks in world don't say "I'm chaotic good." They would instead say something like, "I try to do good deeds, but don't let that get in the way of having fun if I can help it!" or the like; they'd be descriptive. An outsider would say something like "I am a paragon of chaos and good!" or even "I am a champion of entropy and kindness" or whatever. But even they wouldn't refer to a group as a "bunch of chaotics."
So...that's not saying they don't exist in-setting as real things. That's saying there's no agreed in-setting terminology for them, and that they aren't quite as simple in-world as in the rules. Which actually isn't inconsistent with anything I've been saying at all.
In Jade Regent there are systems to track Reputation and Honor. They provide some clues on what different cultures value (Norse and Japanese respectively)
Those are in addition to alignment though and are mostly social constructs rather than innate metaphysical properties
There is no Smite Honorless Dog
I see your point... I'm just frustrated by it.
From what I've read, there is indeed a sense of good & evil, of generosity & selfishness, in Japanese morality. But... it sure looks different. Is this giri vs. ninjo? Or is giri "Law" and ninjo "Chaos"?
Also, I'm looking at the five elements, and it's tempting to suggest that Law (Earth) gives rise to an intermediate step (Water) and then to Chaos (Fire), and then via another intermediate step (Wind) ascends to Neutrality (Heaven/Void/Spirit).
All I need is a way to divide one of the planes -- say, the Abyss (it's so very convoluted) -- in two, and I can get a 5-row, 2-column alignment grid, and then fit in the planes. [Edited for clarity]
But no, not the spells... Or Smites...
Still, Deadmanwalking is correct in that alignment is empirically observable. (...) So personally I find it hard to believe, that there is no science (theology, if you will) trying to figure out those differences and to order them in a system. In the end, you'd get the nine alignment system or at least an approximation of that.
So maybe, this knowledge has all been collected by Pharasman priests (given that Pharasma decides where to send the souls of the deceased, at least she and her followers would know abourt the differences), and if you don't want it to be widely known, this collection was probably stolen and hidden by the followers of the Reaper of Reputation. I think you could actually make a point, that the gods probably don't want people to think about them in these categories for obviously very selfish reasons.
I would tend to argue that nothing has been hidden, and that yes, highly educated people do have a 3x3 grid to impose on very diffused reality -- it's what education is for, after all! Your suggestion that Pharasman clerics would most likely be the philosophers makes sense.
So who started worshipping Pharasma first?
ETA: I agree with Deadmanwalking: Anyone who uses a Harrow deck definitely understands reality as a 3x3 grid. Harrowings make no sense, otherwise.
For some home games, I've toyed with the inclusion of 'self' and 'other'. XD They're a sort of motivational alignment, and mostly exist to provide context to the main two parts. The basic gist is whether your focus is on yourself ("I strive to perfect myself, fulfill my greed, etc."), or on others ("I want to help people who need it, burn all the orphanages, etc.). On a grid, these would be 'up' and 'down'.
Interesting... Or, I assume, if I have a 5-row element chart handy :), I could use these as columns...
It definitely is a twist on ninjo (self) & giri (other), where often ninjo (self-actualization) would get defined (I believe) as evil & giri (duty) as good.
In this case, "I strive to perfect myself in my duties" would be "self" while "I strive to kill my lord's enemies" would be "other." At the same time, I assume both are reflective of giri. And both "I seek my own pleasure" would be "self" while "I burn orphanages" would be "other," but both are still ninjo -- I trust. Yes?
It's not classical Japanese thinking, or so I believe, but this isn't Japan, after all, it's Minkai. I like it!
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If you would try to fit in the ones you have into a 5x2 grid, how would it look?
A plane with layers could theoretically be divided, or split Neutrality into Inner and Outer planes.
I like the latter which could be used to simulate the two classic stances on True Neutral :
1 - no strong feelings for any alignment pole (E vs G, L vs C)
2 - a deliberate avoidance of extremes of alignment
Not sure how it would fit a 5x2 though.
Maybe the 4 extreme alignments on one hand with TN 2 (deliberate avoidance) could be the "involved" set of 5, while the 4 Nx alignments with TN1 (no strong feelings) could be the "dispassionate" set of 5
We could even call the first set Yang and the second set Yin ;-)
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In Jade Regent there are systems to track Reputation and Honor. They provide some clues on what different cultures value (Norse and Japanese respectively)
Those are in addition to alignment though and are mostly social constructs rather than innate metaphysical properties
There is no Smite Honorless Dog
I see your point... I'm just frustrated by it.
From what I've read, there is indeed a sense of good & evil, of generosity & selfishness, in Japanese morality. But... it sure looks different. Is this giri vs. ninjo? Or is giri "Law" and ninjo "Chaos"?
Japan is the perfect example of a RL Lawful Neutral society IMO. I did not know about ninjo, but from what I read thanks to you (and Wikipedia) and my own assessment of the alignment axes, then yes Giri is Lawful (respect of obligations) and Ninjo is Chaotic (betrayal of obligations)
If you would try to fit in the ones you have into a 5x2 grid, how would it look?
A plane with layers could theoretically be divided, or split Neutrality into Inner and Outer planes.
I like the latter which could be used to simulate the two classic stances on True Neutral :
1 - no strong feelings for any alignment pole (E vs G, L vs C)
2 - a deliberate avoidance of extremes of alignment
Not sure how it would fit a 5x2 though.
Maybe the 4 extreme alignments on one hand with TN 2 (deliberate avoidance) could be the "involved" set of 5, while the 4 Nx alignments with TN1 (no strong feelings) could be the "dispassionate" set of 5
We could even call the first set Yang and the second set Yin ;-)
Ummm, I really want to understand what you've said here... but I don't. <sigh> Can you run this for me as an actual 5x2 grid?
Japan is the perfect example of a RL Lawful Neutral society IMO. I did not know about ninjo, but from what I read thanks to you (and Wikipedia) and my own assessment of the alignment axes, then yes Giri is Lawful (respect of obligations) and Ninjo is Chaotic (betrayal of obligations)I see your point... I'm just frustrated by it.
From what I've read, there is indeed a sense of good & evil, of generosity & selfishness, in Japanese morality. But... it sure looks different. Is this giri vs. ninjo? Or is giri "Law" and ninjo "Chaos"?
OK... Lawful Neutral makes a lot of sense to me. But... err... what does RL stand for?
ETA: Does this mean that Minkaian Paladins get "Smite Chaos"?
RL is short for "real life", from IRL.
RL is short for "real life", from IRL.
OOOPS! I do know that, and recognize it in other contexts. Somehow I had a brain short here... So, thanks for clarifying!
I'm feeling stupid in general, I think.
Time to get away from the keyboard and walk my dogs! :)
The Raven Black's grid is fairly simple, now that I look at it again.
Sadly, I don't think it fits my needs, at least not without a suitable definition of "good" and "evil," but it would look something like this:
Yang ~~~~~~~ Yin
LG ~~~~~~~~~ LN
LE ~~~~~~~~~ NG
N (avoid) ~~~~~ N (circs)
CG ~~~~~~~~~ CN
CE ~~~~~~~~~ NE
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What do you think True Neutral represents?
Is it either:
1. Apathy. No strong drive toward any extreme. Passively goes along with life.
2. Deliberate neutrality. Like a druid striving to maintain balance in an ecosystem, good acts should be balanced by evil, and chaotic met with the order of law. Extremes are dangerous after all.
Edit: Nvm, you got it.
Still, Deadmanwalking is correct in that alignment is empirically observable.[snip]
My question to Jacobs was asked with this in mind - that you can cast spells that will suss out people's alignments, and that there's aligned planes and so forth. I thought they were akin to blood types - everyone has one and it can be tested. But how aware are people of which one they have? So I was a tad surprised by his answer. Then again, I might very well surmise too much out of it, he just said that people (and even outsiders) do not speak in those terms.
(Of course, it's his personal take on this, in an answer in a forum thread, and I'm in no way trying to paint this as "canon". I found it interesting though, since I started with 1:st edition AD&D where alignment was a stronger part of the game - everyone of the same alignment even shared a common language! Only assassins could learn alignment languages different from their own... crazy.)A: Alignment is an abstraction, and while players ABSOLUTELY know their own characters' alignments, folks in world don't say "I'm chaotic good." They would instead say something like, "I try to do good deeds, but don't let that get in the way of having fun if I can help it!" or the like; they'd be descriptive. An outsider would say something like "I am a paragon of chaos and good!" or even "I am a champion of entropy and kindness" or whatever. But even they wouldn't refer to a group as a "bunch of chaotics."
[snip]So...that's not saying they don't exist in-setting as real things. That's saying there's no agreed in-setting terminology for them, and that they aren't quite as simple in-world as in the rules. Which actually isn't inconsistent with anything I've been saying at all
Never said you were inconsistent, or that they don't exist. I wanted to chime in with my opinion about if the alignments are "real" to people in Golarion. Evidently they exist, as there are spells to detect them with, just like you can detect poison. But at least according to one developer, Golarion creatures don't use the alignment terms like we do. Dvork the Brave in my example above exists in Golarion, even if no one would use game terms to describe him. But even if you run with this take, as I've done in our game, it doesn't preclude stuff like what was proposed by WormysQueue above; it's plausible that priests of Pharasma or other folks with "alignment meters" have sussed out a chart from the detectable alignment auras, and even named them like they are called on our character sheets or in the Bestiaries. And if so, hey, there you are, nine slots. However, it would be far from the only game system they would be able to figure out - they could for example easily determine how many times per day you could use your spells/abilities to determine your e.g. "power level" and so on, and in the end reverse engineer poor Dvork the Brave down to game terms. A real can of worms - as always when the game systems and world immersion meet :)
My apologies to Bitter lily if you feel I derailed your thread.
A set of rows is starting to crystalize in my mind. It involves the distinction between giri & ninjo, plus that between yin & yang. Naturally, "giri" does not necessarily have the same definition as "lawful" in western cultures, nor "ninjo" the same as "chaotic." (And, I hasten to add, the definition in my gaijin game would not be that in a truly informed one!) However, they're close enough that spells & weapon abilities, etc, should carry over. An axiomatic weapon would do more damage against chaotic- or ninjo-aligned creatures alike. But if I go with this, Minkai might also have "yin" or "yang" alignments for spells & weapons that would affect the other. Yin-creatures might be more likely to have cold resistance but a vulnerability to fire, & yang-creatures the reverse, regardless of what's in the book. That sort of thing.
Element ~ Alignment
Heaven ~~ Neutral
Wind ~~~ Yang giri (lawful)
Fire ~~~~ Yang ninjo (chaotic)
Water ~~~ Yin ninjo (chaotic)
Earth ~~~ Yin giri (lawful)
Now, for the columns.
I did say that I had seen references to generosity as a good & selfishness as an evil, so maybe good & evil could be descriptors that get applied to some of the instances of outward or inward, and the latter are the column headings. Most people & many creatures that one encounters would be considered neutral with respect to good/evil, in essence, but still categorized as outward/inward, w/ no neutral option. (I do like the distinction, Rednal!) In that case, a holy weapon is still effective... just less of the time...
But Minkaian Paladins really ought to get Smite Ninjo.
Big hole: I don't know how this fits with the Japanese view of monsters. Is it selfish as such to want to eat people?
[snip]So...that's not saying they don't exist in-setting as real things. That's saying there's no agreed in-setting terminology for them, and that they aren't quite as simple in-world as in the rules. Which actually isn't inconsistent with anything I've been saying at allNever said you were inconsistent, or that they don't exist. I wanted to chime in with my opinion about if the alignments are "real" to people in Golarion. Evidently they exist, as there are spells to detect them with, just like you can detect poison. But at least according to one developer, Golarion creatures don't use the alignment terms like we do. Dvork the Brave in my example above exists in Golarion, even if no one would use game terms to describe him. But even if you run with this take, as I've done in our game, it doesn't preclude stuff like what was proposed by WormysQueue above; it's plausible that priests of Pharasma or other folks with "alignment meters" have sussed out a chart from the detectable alignment auras, and even named them like they are called on our character sheets or in the Bestiaries. And if so, hey, there you are, nine slots. However, it would be far from the only game system they would be able to figure out - they could for example easily determine how many times per day you could use your spells/abilities to determine your e.g. "power level" and so on, and in the end reverse engineer poor Dvork the Brave down to game terms. A real can of worms - as always when the game systems and world immersion meet :)
My apologies to Bitter lily if you feel I derailed your thread.
No apologies necessary; this is very much what I was asking about!
I do disagree that priests of Pharasma could of necessity figure out "power levels" and so on. It's one thing to be able to determine if someone looks ready to head off to thus-and-such a plane after they die. That's their goddess's business, after all. It's another to say that other game systems would be apparent to them; that isn't, so far as I can tell, something Pharasma is especially concerned with. (But I'm feeling a little shaky on that, because I don't have any of the deity supplements, just the Inner Sea World Guide.)
Given that Harrowings are so popular with their descendants and, honestly, based on the sin magic they employed, I assume that Thassilonians for sure had the 3x3 grid. Not necessarily the Dvoraks among them -- the Runelords. And priests. And other educated folks. I'm basing that on the belief that Varisians aren't big on "education," but could easily have retained that much of the culture after Earthfall. (The harrow deck, in particular, requires master-to-apprentice education.)
Did Thassilonians worship Pharasma?
Azlanti?
Aboleths?
And do aboleths go to her boneyard?
I do disagree that priests of Pharasma could of necessity figure out "power levels" and so on. It's one thing to be able to determine if someone looks ready to head off to thus-and-such a plane after they die. That's their goddess's business, after all. It's another to say that other game systems would be apparent to them; that isn't, so far as I can tell, something Pharasma is especially concerned with. (But I'm feeling a little shaky on that, because I don't have any of the deity supplements, just the Inner Sea World Guide.)Given that Harrowings are so popular with their descendants and, honestly, based on the sin magic they employed, I assume that Thassilonians for sure had the 3x3 grid. Not necessarily the Dvoraks among them -- the Runelords. And priests. And other educated folks. I'm basing that on the belief that Varisians aren't big on "education," but could easily have retained that much of the culture after Earthfall. (The harrow deck, in particular, requires master-to-apprentice education.)
Did Thassilonians worship Pharasma?
Azlanti?
Aboleths?
And do aboleths go to her boneyard?
I don't think priests of Pharasma would generally be interested in how many levels of a class someone has, just that game mechanics are an absolute and "reality" is not. That if Wizzy the Wizard can cast four 1:st level spells a day, but her pal Evy the Evoker can cast five, that's a sign there's a "chart" in there somewhere, just like the different detect alignment auras would be an indicator of a "chart" for (maybe) priests. It's a rabbit hole is what I am saying, and if you want to say folks belong to a named and known "alignment" in world, then the step is not too far to determine class, and then to mechanics such as levels and on you go. The line is a bit fuzzy between what characters know and what the rules show, and alignment is, in my opinion, smack in the middle of that fuzziness.
From what I have read, Pharasma is one of the oldest and powerful of the gods, so I suppose the Azlanti worshipped her, and the pathfinder wiki says so too.
I think the Thassilonian empires were more evil and probably had more of Rune lord cults, along with worship of now mostly forgotten gods such as the Peacock spirit or Lissala. As for what empire would had made the first 3x3 chart, if that's the way you want to go with alignment knowledge, my bet would be on the Azlanti, seeing as they worshiped Pharasma as well as they were highly educated. I don't think the Aboleths care about moral questions, as long as they get to be the bosses and everyone else their slaves they're "happy".
The Aboleths are "Golarion atheists", meaning they acknowledge the existence of gods but do not worship them. That means their souls should either stay in the Boneyard after death, or go to Hell (since they are Lawful Evil), I suppose.
Why don't you try asking James Jacobs these questions, for his take on them? His fortitude and speed in answering questions in his thread here is just mind boggling, especially considering the very large quality variation of them - and yours are (IMHO) good! :)
And, for an iconoclast's take on the question....
Deadmanwalking correctly points out that the Detect <philosophy> spells can be used to suss out the alignment system. However, all of those spells are available (AFAIR) only to divine casters, which means that the information, in the end, comes from the Gods. Now, you can point out that the Protection from <philosophy> spells are not just divine, but arcane casters still need some sort of matrix and filter to feed energy into, and the matrices and filters come from the Detect spells.
So, since the alignment system is intimately based on the deities populating it, there seems to be nothing preventing a different pantheon of deities from providing different information to their adherents, giving them a completely separate system of alignment/philosophy. Now, admittedly, from a GM's POV, at that point, that part of the world will have/need a new set of spells/abilities, like bitter lily pointed out, and many GM's will be unwilling to put forth that effort. And that's fine! But my darling wife is obsessive about such things. :-)
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Never said you were inconsistent, or that they don't exist.
Cool. Just clarifying my own response to that answer.
I wanted to chime in with my opinion about if the alignments are "real" to people in Golarion. Evidently they exist, as there are spells to detect them with, just like you can detect poison. But at least according to one developer, Golarion creatures don't use the alignment terms like we do.
Right. And I'm totally willing to accept that. But that just means they don't use that terminology, not that the concept doesn't exist.
Dvork the Brave in my example above exists in Golarion, even if no one would use game terms to describe him. But even if you run with this take, as I've done in our game, it doesn't preclude stuff like what was proposed by WormysQueue above; it's plausible that priests of Pharasma or other folks with "alignment meters" have sussed out a chart from the detectable alignment auras, and even named them like they are called on our character sheets or in the Bestiaries. And if so, hey, there you are, nine slots. However, it would be far from the only game system they would be able to figure out - they could for example easily determine how many times per day you could use your spells/abilities to determine your e.g. "power level" and so on, and in the end reverse engineer poor Dvork the Brave down to game terms. A real can of worms - as always when the game systems and world immersion meet :)
My impression has always been that some people have indeed done precisely this. In detail, with charts. The issue is that doing so involves some rather specific magic, a willingness to go a fair ways to conduct your experiments, and a whole crapload of people to survey.
In short, it's a very rare and specialized knowledge base. I tend to assume knowledge of the coherent systems by which Alignment works (or of how many spells a Wizard has, or any other specific measure like this) are the equivalent of, oh, a particular area within advanced physics. Certain specific people are familiar with specific subsets of these facts (alignment, the spells available to a particular class, etc.) and have the terminology to talk about them (at least with other people who learned about them from the same places)...but they're highly skilled and rather rare specialists and don't use most of the terminology outside talking with other such experts since it'd be pretty impenetrable, instead using layman's terms to explain the situation.
I wouldn't be surprised if such knowledge was more common in, say, Ancient Azlant, but today? Not super common.
Given that Harrowings are so popular with their descendants and, honestly, based on the sin magic they employed, I assume that Thassilonians for sure had the 3x3 grid. Not necessarily the Dvoraks among them -- the Runelords. And priests. And other educated folks. I'm basing that on the belief that Varisians aren't big on "education," but could easily have retained that much of the culture after Earthfall. (The harrow deck, in particular, requires master-to-apprentice education.)
Seems a reasonable guess for where they got that, yeah.
Though I've gotta disagree on Varisians not being big on education. Remember, no more Varisians are illiterate than any other people, and Ustalav is mostly ethnically Varisian...and have some rather notable universities.
Did Thassilonians worship Pharasma?
They did. It's been noted and made explicit.
Azlanti?
Yep, them too. Both they and the Thassilonians primarily venerated her as the Goddess of Prophecy, interestingly enough.
Aboleths?
Aboleths hate the very notion of Gods and worship none, so no.
And do aboleths go to her boneyard?
They do. Everyone goes there to be judged whether they believe in Pharasma or like her or not.
And, for an iconoclast's take on the question....
Deadmanwalking correctly points out that the Detect <philosophy> spells can be used to suss out the alignment system. However, all of those spells are available (AFAIR) only to divine casters, which means that the information, in the end, comes from the Gods.
This is technically true, but Alchemists, Wizards, and Bards all have access to See Alignment, so it's verifiable that, say, a CE person and a LE person are different with arcane magic (or alchemy) as well.
And, for an iconoclast's take on the question....Deadmanwalking correctly points out that the Detect <philosophy> spells can be used to suss out the alignment system. However, all of those spells are available (AFAIR) only to divine casters, which means that the information, in the end, comes from the Gods.
This is technically true, but Alchemists, Wizards, and Bards all have access to See Alignment, so it's verifiable that, say, a CE person and a LE person are different with arcane magic (or alchemy) as well.
Well, that's why I used the acronym for As Far As I Remember.
But See Alignment requires that you specify an alignment you want to check for, so again, the arcane casters are using the matrices and filters provided to them by the divine casters. Which is not to invalidate any points you're making; I'm just saying that it doesn't have to be the final answer.
The iconoclast part is that I do not believe that there is One True and Right Way (TM).
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Well, that's why I used the acronym for As Far As I Remember.
Well, sure. Just aiming for clarity. :)
But See Alignment requires that you specify an alignment you want to check for, so again, the arcane casters are using the matrices and filters provided to them by the divine casters. Which is not to invalidate any points you're making; I'm just saying that it doesn't have to be the final answer.
Well, you can experimentally try it with different frameworks...at which point (by the rules) it doesn't work at all. Which sorta argues for the one framework it works with being objectively correct.
Heck, you could give it to people unfamiliar with the framework, tell them to try it with different frameworks, and the fact that only the one worked definitively proves which framework is objectively real. You could even research spells for other frameworks, but with nothing to hang them on I doubt they'd function.
The iconoclast part is that I do not believe that there is One True and Right Way (TM).
Well, depends on what you mean. In Golarion, Alignment is basically part of the laws of physics. It can be misunderstood, but can't actually be wrong per se any more than any other natural law.
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My impression has always been that some people have indeed done precisely this. In detail, with charts. The issue is that doing so involves some rather specific magic, a willingness to go a fair ways to conduct your experiments, and a whole crapload of people to survey.
I can't avoid getting a mental image of an Azlanti scholar, bent over scrolls and charts in a vast chamber, suddenly stopping in his tracks and staring at his colleagues - his face a distorted mask of existential terror. "What if all our work really shows that we actually are not free people, but puppets in a game, played in a far future on a distant world? That there's some person sitting, fingers colored orange from some cheese snack and rolling multi-colored dice determining our every action?" :)
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And, for an iconoclast's take on the question....Deadmanwalking correctly points out that the Detect <philosophy> spells can be used to suss out the alignment system. However, all of those spells are available (AFAIR) only to divine casters, which means that the information, in the end, comes from the Gods.
This is technically true, but Alchemists, Wizards, and Bards all have access to See Alignment, so it's verifiable that, say, a CE person and a LE person are different with arcane magic (or alchemy) as well.
Well, that's why I used the acronym for As Far As I Remember.
But See Alignment requires that you specify an alignment you want to check for, so again, the arcane casters are using the matrices and filters provided to them by the divine casters. Which is not to invalidate any points you're making; I'm just saying that it doesn't have to be the final answer.
The iconoclast part is that I do not believe that there is One True and Right Way (TM).
How right you are
Should you wish to change a system, any system in fact no matter how ingrained in reality, please contact Groetus
I don't think priests of Pharasma would generally be interested in how many levels of a class someone has, just that game mechanics are an absolute and "reality" is not. That if Wizzy the Wizard can cast four 1:st level spells a day, but her pal Evy the Evoker can cast five, that's a sign there's a "chart" in there somewhere, just like the different detect alignment auras would be an indicator of a "chart" for (maybe) priests. It's a rabbit hole is what I am saying, and if you want to say folks belong to a named and known "alignment" in world, then the step is not too far to determine class, and then to mechanics such as levels and on you go. The line is a bit fuzzy between what characters know and what the rules show, and alignment is, in my opinion, smack in the middle of that fuzziness.
Noted. And honestly, the all-at-once nature of leveling-up leads to this sort of understanding. So either you go with some sort of staggered advancement, or your game is liable to "Is mine bigger than yours" questions by characters in-game. I suppose I'm just not too troubled by it.
From what I have read, Pharasma is one of the oldest and powerful of the gods, so I suppose the Azlanti worshipped her, and the pathfinder wiki says so too.
I think the Thassilonian empires were more evil and probably had more of Rune lord cults, along with worship of now mostly forgotten gods such as the Peacock spirit or Lissala. As for what empire would had made the first 3x3 chart, if that's the way you want to go with alignment knowledge, my bet would be on the Azlanti, seeing as they worshiped Pharasma as well as they were highly educated. I don't think the Aboleths care about moral questions, as long as they get to be the bosses and everyone else their slaves they're "happy".
Thanks for the Pathfinder wiki reference! I'm happy to give the Azlanti the prestige of being the first to figure out the grid. At that point, Thassilonians would have absorbed it from their parent culture whether they had much interest in the subject or not, and could easily have passed knowledge of the grid onto modern-day folk in the form of the Harrowing deck.
The Aboleths are "Golarion atheists", meaning they acknowledge the existence of gods but do not worship them. That means their souls should either stay in the Boneyard after death, or go to Hell (since they are Lawful Evil), I suppose.
Why don't you try asking James Jacobs these questions, for his take on them? His fortitude and speed in answering questions in his thread here is just mind boggling, especially considering the very large quality variation of them - and yours are (IMHO) good! :)
Given the Raven Black's hint down-thread, I ran off to look Groetus up in the PF Wiki. It appears that aboleths likely do show up in the Boneyard, but then get gobbled up by Groetus, given that Pharasma permits gobbling for atheistic souls. So then only iconoclastic aboleths would make it to one of the outer planes. It still might make for an interesting conversation or two out there...
Thanks for complimenting my questions! I may ask Herr Jacobs, or settle for the great answers we fans are coming up with here.
At least now I can refer in-game with confidence to the Azlanti-alignments as the ones the PCs are familiar with. (Assuming that they have thought about alignment in-character at all...)
Do eastern philosophies even have the concept of chaotic good?
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Given the Raven Black's hint down-thread, I ran off to look Groetus up in the PF Wiki. It appears that aboleths likely do show up in the Boneyard, but then get gobbled up by Groetus, given that Pharasma permits gobbling for atheistic souls. So then only iconoclastic aboleths would make it to one of the outer planes. It still might make for an interesting conversation or two out there...
For the record, that only happens to the bad atheists. And not in the sense of Evil, in the sense of not meeting their own standards and the like.
Nicer things happen to good atheists.
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PS: If anyone can point me to discussions of others who have looked at Japanese alignments, I would be very grateful!
Not Japanese specifically, but a Wuxia based 3rd party book has an "Honorable" and "Dishonorable" alignment that replace Good and Evil. From Dragon Tiger Ox:
Killing an opponent is dishonorable, even if a feeling of justification exists. Defeating an opponent is sufficient (reducing to zero hp). A defeated opponent will take no action against the victor unless he wishes to become dishonorable. Killing a non-dishonorable creature can, at the GM’s discretion, result in a shift towards the dishonorable alignment. Even killing a dishonorable creature without a just cause can result in such a shift. Extenuating circumstances (such as a critical hit) should be taken into consideration. Act upon what the creature intended to do, not what happened. Sometimes killing a foe is required and can even be honorable under the right circumstances.
While might does not make right, wuxia who are at a moral or social impasse will fight to prove their points. This is seen as metaphorical. If two souls are dueling for what they believe is right, the outcome is seen as validation of the victor’s righteousness. If fought on principle, a defeated wuxia will often acquiesce to the victor’s point.
Honor Good and evil alignments have been replaced with “honorable” and “dishonorable.” They are functionally the same ( detect dishonor detects dishonorable characters for example), but the criteria is different. A character who conducts himself honorably by the wuxia code (see below) is considered honorable. A character who disregards the code is dishonorable. A character who is neutral is shifting from one to another. A blatant infraction will drop a character one step. Most non-wuxia are neutral on this axis of morality.
• You will not kill unless it is required.
• Fight in self defense whenever able.
• Show respect in defeat and humility in victory.
• Help those less fortunate than you.
• Your body is the temple for your spirit and should not be desecrated or polluted.
• Show respect to your peers, your elders, and your betters.
• Respect nature and art.
• Live modestly and give more than you take.
• A wuxia must test his skill and his limits every chance he gets.There is room for differing interpretations of this code, but those who seek to follow it are rewarded more so than those who do not. This is not as much a “one size fits all” code of morality, but rather a series of tenets that uplift those who seek it.
A dishonorable alignment does not not always mean a character would be considered “evil” in another setting. Alignments deal more with ignorance versus enlightenment, especially regarding this code of dignity. Those who are unaware of the code or who conduct themselves in an unbecoming way could be dishonorable. A wild child martial artist could be a dishonorable chaotic character and still have a heart of gold. However, if he seeks enlightenment by taming his actions, he may eventually become more cultured and gain the honorable enlightenment. On the other hand, an honorable character would almost always be good.
It is a VERY good book and goes more in depth on stuff later in snippets as part of PrCs and setting/clan details. I really recommend getting it.
My impression has always been that some people have indeed done precisely this. In detail, with charts. The issue is that doing so involves some rather specific magic, a willingness to go a fair ways to conduct your experiments, and a whole crapload of people to survey.
In short, it's a very rare and specialized knowledge base. I tend to assume knowledge of the coherent systems by which Alignment works (or of how many spells a Wizard has, or any other specific measure like this) are the equivalent of, oh, a particular area within advanced physics. Certain specific people are familiar with specific subsets of these facts (alignment, the spells available to a particular class, etc.) and have the terminology to talk about them (at least with other people who learned about them from the same places)...but they're highly skilled and rather rare specialists and don't use most of the terminology outside talking with other such experts since it'd be pretty impenetrable, instead using layman's terms to explain the situation.
I wouldn't be surprised if such knowledge was more common in, say, Ancient Azlant, but today? Not super common.
Now you're arguing about DCs. And what knowledge skill. I'd give knowledge of the alignment grid a much lower DC than you apparently would, but that's me. Maybe DC 15 or even DC 10 for alignments that the questor can identify by spell. Given our past convo here, I now would peg this as a question for Knowledge (religion).
"Is he of a higher level than I am?" is a bit different for me. If he's already cast a spell you can only marvel at, the answer clearly is "he can cast higher-level spells," no check needed. (And I believe James Jacobs has given us permission to categorize spells by level!) An equivalent for martials would be, has he made so many attacks in just a few seconds that you're amazed? If there haven't been clear signs of superior capability, though, I don't know how it could be settled in a short amount of time. There might be, or maybe, just maybe ought to be, a feat that lets one size up an opponent for level. I'm simply not as concerned with it in general. It's not, to me, as open to academic study as alignment is, given the spells we have.
Given that Harrowings are so popular with their descendants and, honestly, based on the sin magic they employed, I assume that Thassilonians for sure had the 3x3 grid. Not necessarily the Dvoraks among them -- the Runelords. And priests. And other educated folks. I'm basing that on the belief that Varisians aren't big on "education," but could easily have retained that much of the culture after Earthfall. (The harrow deck, in particular, requires master-to-apprentice education.)Seems a reasonable guess for where they got that, yeah.
Though I've gotta disagree on Varisians not being big on education. Remember, no more Varisians are illiterate than any other people, and Ustalav is mostly ethnically Varisian...and have some rather notable universities.
According to the PF Wiki: the University of Lepidstadt was founded in 4422 AR; the University of Korvosa in 4488 AR; and the Sincomakti School of Sciences in 4570 AR. None of those, IMO, demonstrates an ages-old inheritance of the love of education, untouched by influence from Taldor & Cheliax. Did I miss something?
As for the rest of your answers, esp the bit about Azlanti & Thessalonians worshipping Pharasma primarily as the goddess of prophecy, thank you very much.
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According to the PF Wiki: the University of Lepidstadt was founded in 4422 AR; the University of Korvosa in 4488 AR; and the Sincomakti School of Sciences in 4570 AR. None of those, IMO, demonstrates an ages-old inheritance of the love of education, untouched by influence from Taldor & Cheliax. Did I miss something?
No, that's fair enough. But it wasn't quite what you said before and I was trying to clarify that Varisians are as well educated as most people...which in no way includes knowledge of ancient Azlant.
As for the rest of your answers, esp the bit about Azlanti & Thessalonians worshipping Pharasma primarily as the goddess of prophecy, thank you very much.
You're quite welcome. Always happy to be of assistance. :)
But See Alignment requires that you specify an alignment you want to check for, so again, the arcane casters are using the matrices and filters provided to them by the divine casters. Which is not to invalidate any points you're making; I'm just saying that it doesn't have to be the final answer.Well, you can experimentally try it with different frameworks...at which point (by the rules) it doesn't work at all. Which sorta argues for the one framework it works with being objectively correct.
Heck, you could give it to people unfamiliar with the framework, tell them to try it with different frameworks, and the fact that only the one worked definitively proves which framework is objectively real. You could even research spells for other frameworks, but with nothing to hang them on I doubt they'd function.
The iconoclast part is that I do not believe that there is One True and Right Way (TM).Well, depends on what you mean. In Golarion, Alignment is basically part of the laws of physics. It can be misunderstood, but can't actually be wrong per se any more than any other natural law.
I created this thread with an a priori disagreement with your POV. Look at the alignment grid I suggested above. Would there actually be a reason why "Detect Yin" and "Detect Yang" would of necessity fail to work? Why? The fact that no western casters use those spells just means... they didn't try them. Gods who tried granting them couldn't explain what they were granting, and quit. The same with "Detect Outward/Inward" if I go with those.
As for Good/Evil functioning in Minkai, all right, I'm now granting that -- it's just that somehow many souls feel more neutral there than the same soul would here. Another way to say it is that my Tien deities from Axis, the Boneyard, and the Maelstrom are a lot more active in recruiting souls from Pharasma's judgment halls than their western fellows are -- and the "Detect" spells pick up on that. I'm suggesting that you have to be really good or really evil to smack of it in Minkai.
Of course, the follow-up is that Lawful/Chaotic (giri/ninjo) would have a much greater hold on people's hearts than they do here; it's harder to live a neutral life, especially by happenstance. The gods of Abaddon and Nirvana lose out more often than not to their lawful or chaotic rivals. I suppose it makes sense that a character must struggle and purify themself to escape the forces of reality, the pull of giri & ninjo both, on the one hand and also become pure & holy (ie, good) on the other hand in order to reach Nirvana.
Now, of course, I start wondering about reincarnation...
EtA: Debnor, I have to thank you for your support here. And your mind-broadening influence, IRL. (He's my husband!)
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It was created by a famous philosopher scientist genious named Gygax ...
Actually, it was another dude named Jack Vance. Gygax also copied the Vancian Magic System for D&D, and we still use it in Pathfinder.
Do eastern philosophies even have the concept of chaotic good?
That's part of what I'm wondering!
But I think so... At least, I can think of someone being honorless but generous. Certainly, it's possible for someone to be utterly, scrupulously honorable, but to use honor as an excuse for selfishness.
Given the Raven Black's hint down-thread, I ran off to look Groetus up in the PF Wiki. It appears that aboleths likely do show up in the Boneyard, but then get gobbled up by Groetus, given that Pharasma permits gobbling for atheistic souls. So then only iconoclastic aboleths would make it to one of the outer planes. It still might make for an interesting conversation or two out there...For the record, that only happens to the bad atheists. And not in the sense of Evil, in the sense of not meeting their own standards and the like.
Nicer things happen to good atheists.
Well, that's good... But WHAT nicer things?
I've got a PC who breathlessly wants to know...