As the title says, does blink 50% non-typed miss chance + 20% (concealment) miss chance, stack?
If memory serves, they don't stack to be 70%. I believe you do roll two miss chances, though. One against 50% and one against 20%
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Prior editions did not have it stack. I see nothing that would cause it to function any differently.
You only have one miss chance, despite having multiple levels of it from varying sources.
Just roll a 60% miss chance.
wat
Just roll a 60% miss chance.
To elaborate on My Self's number, suppose you roll the 50% miss chance followed by the 20% miss change. You have a 50% chance of missing on the first roll, and a (50%)×(20%) = 10% chance of making the second roll and missing on that roll instead. That sums to a 60% chance of missing.
It depends whether you count Blink as concealment - the spell description doesn't say it does, but it refers to concealment once. For concealment, the higher value counts:
A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
You could argue that during blinking you are not concealed but physically absent half of the time. Then rolling 50% and 20% fits - or you combine both rolls to a 60% one like My Self suggested.
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Just roll a 60% miss chance.To elaborate on My Self's number, suppose you roll the 50% miss chance followed by the 20% miss change. You have a 50% chance of missing on the first roll, and a (50%)×(20%) = 10% chance of making the second roll and missing on that roll instead. That sums to a 60% chance of missing.
it's (1 - (1 - 0.5)*(1 - 0.2)) or 0.6, so 60%.
for anyone wondering on how this works out mathematically.
Of course, since you only roll one miss chance, you just use the higher percentage, since nothing in the rules says multiple miss chance values interact with each other. If you roll a 67%, that is greater than both 20 and 50.
it's simply a time saving method if you're going to roll the 2 miss chances individually. the odds are the same if you just roll a single miss chance at 60.
You can't be MORE than completely concealed.
Sure you can. Invisible plus blink. You're entirely concealed and you're not even fully there all the time. So even if you get lucky on where to swing your sword, you also have to get lucky on when.
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You can't be MORE than completely concealed.Sure you can. Invisible plus blink. You're entirely concealed and you're not even fully there all the time. So even if you get lucky on where to swing your sword, you also have to get lucky on when.
So that'd be 50% concealment from invisibility and 20% 'not there' from blink. Still only total concealment, but a stronger case than the original scenario (i.e. stacking two forms of 20% concealment).
No actual rules on it, so sticking at 50% is still a plausible option. If you wanted to do it mathematically then I'd say that you target the right location 50% of the time, but 20% of those times the target is ethereal... so you'd hit 40% of the time.
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Make the attack normally—if the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance d% roll to avoid being struck.
If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment.
Since most miss chance effects target you and not your images, you can say that targeting a figment is not a hit and therefore the miss chance does not come into play.
Well actually you can get a higher than 50% miss chance- Changelings, for example, have a racial trait that increases any miss chance you have by 5%.
You can't be MORE than completely concealed.
Ergo, 50% miss chance maximum. One roll.
PS: Note that the 50% miss chance from Blink already includes a 20% chance from concealment. Thus an additional 20% chance from concealment does nothing.
20% chance from concealment only happens when and If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, otherwise it is a untyped bonus from blinking in and our of the planes.
What I'm gathering from this thread is that a sufficient number of low-mid level spells can temporarily duplicate an arbitrarily high AC, making your actual AC a redundant defense for a few rounds.
Which is more or less par for course for what spells do.
you're name confuses me, >like this<.
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Of course, since you only roll one miss chance, you just use the higher percentage, since nothing in the rules says multiple miss chance values interact with each other. If you roll a 67%, that is greater than both 20 and 50.
A interesting idea. I am not convinced you are right, but it is a possible interpretation.
About the specific example of blink+concealment, blink already include a concealment effect:
If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.)
I read that as "you are on another plane and invisible 50% of the time, but if your attacker can see invisible creatures he can see you even when away and try to time his strike to hit you when you materialize."
So normal concealment (20%) would not work together with 50% invisibility.If you use invisibility together with blink I would give you 2 miss rolls, one at 505 for invisibility and one at 20% for blink without invisibility, and roll them in sequence.
But that is a personal interpretation, not rules.
For sure I wouldn't allow anyone to add the two miss chances together.
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Of course, since you only roll one miss chance, you just use the higher percentage, since nothing in the rules says multiple miss chance values interact with each other. If you roll a 67%, that is greater than both 20 and 50.A interesting idea. I am not convinced you are right, but it is a possible interpretation.
If there is a clarification or rules example that defines how miss chances interaction, I would be glad to have it.
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There are two relevant questions.
1. Does Blink (only) grant concealment?
Personally I always considered concealment to be something solely based on visibility. Blink does more than that, it actually shifts you out of harms way into the etheral plane. We are also informed that Blind-Fight, a feat designed to help against concealed opponents, doesn't affect Blink.
There still seems to be a part of Blink that is basically concealment, but negating that part still causes a 20% miss chance that isn't further specified. In this thread we ignore the usual 50% miss chance caused by Blink as the concealment part of it wouldn't stack with invisibility, but this still leaves us with the 20% miss chance caused by becoming etheral at just the right time.
2. Do we only roll once for miss chance?
I don't think there is anything about this in the rules. We know we only roll once for concealment, but the rules are silent about other sources of miss chances. Personally I would assume you roll twice, simply because we are told to roll by two seperate effects.
This seems plausible as a character needs to overcome both obstacles (invisibility and etheralness) seperately to hit. Attacking the creature while it is not etheral doesn't help if you don't manage to hit it because of its concealment just like beating the concealment doesn't help if the target is etheral at that very moment.
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2. Do we only roll once for miss chance?
I don't think there is anything about this in the rules. We know we only roll once for concealment, but the rules are silent about other sources of miss chances. Personally I would assume you roll twice, simply because we are told to roll by two seperate effects.
Mathematically, the odds of success when rolling twice are identical to the odds when rolling once after multiplying the chances of success together;
Roll 50% chance to target right location & then roll 80% chance for target to be there/non-ethereal = 40% chance to hit
50% * 80% = roll 40% chance to hit
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If there is a clarification or rules example that defines how miss chances interaction, I would be glad to have it.Of course, since you only roll one miss chance, you just use the higher percentage, since nothing in the rules says multiple miss chance values interact with each other. If you roll a 67%, that is greater than both 20 and 50.A interesting idea. I am not convinced you are right, but it is a possible interpretation.
I don't believe there is.
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you first roll the 20% concealment miss to see of you "hit" the correct location in the square.
if you succeed this check, you will then roll the 50% chance to see if your target "was there" when you hit there.
No, there is only a 20% of the target being ethereal from Blink, so you would never roll a 50% 'not there' miss chance. Rather it'd be the other way around... if they have complete concealment you could roll 50% chance to hit the correct location followed by 80% chance that the target 'was there'.
this indeed combines into a 60% miss chance, combining the effects, but this should be a 20% and a 50% check, not a single 60%
Given that the odds are exactly the same, why should it be necessary to roll more dice?
Given that the odds are exactly the same, why should it be necessary to roll more dice?
My players love rolling dice.
When I am a player I love rolling dice.
When I GM, and the player OR the enemy has concealment and/or blink, I do the two-rolls way, and I prefer to have the player roll.
I find I get more player involvement if they get to roll the percentile to see if what they did worked.
Blink gives you this:
20% miss chance due to being incorporeal
20% miss chance due to concealment.
If both apply then you get a total 50% miss chance.
Adding concealment to concealment generally does nothing. There is only a 20% miss chance for someone under the effects of Blur and being in shadowed light conditions.
Concealment Miss Chance
Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. Make the attack normally—if the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance d% roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack.
So, adding Blur to a Blinking person would do nothing.
Blink is not a concealment bonus. UNLESS the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, then it counts as concealment.
Blink is not a concealment bonus. UNLESS the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, then it counts as concealment.
No, there is always a concealment portion to the miss chance, it is stated explicitly. It is just that what portion is concealment is irrelevant unless you can strike incorporeal creatures. For simplicity the miss chance is condensed into one roll, and things which modify only part of the roll are ignored.
So ok, Blink provides concealment (20% miss chance) and only a 30% chance of "not being there". That sounds strange considering that in other instances, it also explicitly confirms you're only "there" half the time:
You take only half damage from falling, since you fall only while you are material.
While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled.
Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures. You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones.
All that aside, however, does that mean total concealment (or displacement) plus Blink equals a 80% miss chance? (30% "not there" plus 50%?)
Miss chances don't add, they multiply. If you rolled 20% twice, you'd have a miss chance of 36% (not 40%). The miss chance that combines with 20% to give 50% is 37.5%.
Welcome to the world of mathemagics.
Blink is not a concealment bonus. UNLESS the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, then it counts as concealment.No, there is always a concealment portion to the miss chance, it is stated explicitly. It is just that what portion is concealment is irrelevant unless you can strike incorporeal creatures. For simplicity the miss chance is condensed into one roll, and things which modify only part of the roll are ignored.
Can you show where it explicitly says it always has concealment miss chance?
It says here that : Physical attacks against you have a 50% miss chance, and the Blind-Fight feat doesn't help opponents, since you're ethereal and not merely invisible.
Blind fight : In melee, every time you miss because of concealment (see Combat), you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit.
I don't see where you are getting it always has a concealment miss chance.
I'm gathering it's because there's a 20% miss chance that applies if the enemy can see invisible creatures and strike into the ethereal plane. The implication is that the concealment is always there, presumably part of the 50% miss chance.
If that's true, can Blink be used to make Stealth checks?
It doesn't say that though, it says if those requirements actually happen. It never says it is explicitly always there.
It seems to say the exact opposite.