| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm a little confused about how this feat works.
It requires racial weapon familiarity and either A) grants you proficiency will the weapons mentioned in your race's trait or B) if "you are proficient with ANY" of those weapons instead grants you a flexible version of weapon focus.
The thing is, if you have weapon familiarity then you will always be proficient with at least some of the weapons in the group.
There is never a scenario where option A plays out.
Take a level 1 wizard for example: Not exactly a paragon of martial aptitude. Proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff. That's it. But, you're no regular wizard, you're a dwarf wizard. You're automatically proficient with the heavy pick, warhammer and battle axe.
Ergo, option B goes into play and you get the weapon focus version of the feat instead of say, proficiency with a longhammer.
Is that how it's supposed to work? Can anyone think of a scenario where you have the weapon familiarity racial trait but still aren't proficient with your race's weapons? Should it instead read "if you are proficient with all" then etc.?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
While racial weapon familiarity traits give you proficiency in any racial weapon that is normally martial for free, if the weapon is normally exotic (such as the elven curve blade), the trait only reduces it to martial grade for you.
If your wizard were an elf wizard, he could not equip the blade. If he had this feat, he could, but does not get to apply the flexible Weapon Focus to it.
As Saethori says, classes that don't grant familiarity with all martial weapons won't get you access to all of the options.
Dwarves
All Dwarves with Weapon Familiarity are proficient with the Battleaxe, Heavy Pick, and Warhammer, but only those with proficiency in all martial weapons are proficient with the Dwarven Boulder Helm, Dwarven Maulaxe, Dwarven Double Waraxe, Dwarven Waraxe, Dwarven Dorn-Dergar, Dwarven Longaxe, and Dwarven Longhammer.
Orcs
All Orcs with Weapon Familiarity are proficient with the Falchion and Greataxe, but only those with proficiency in all martial weapons are proficient with the Orc Double Axe and Orc Skull Ram.
Elves
All Elves with Weapon Familiarity are proficient with the Longsword, Rapier, Longbow, Composite Longbow, Shortbow, and Composite Shortbow, but only those with proficiency in all martial weapons are proficient with the Elven Curve Blade and Elven Branched Spear.
Note that Half-Elves with the Weapon Familiarity alternate racial trait get the same benefits as Elves.
Oh, I understand the whole martial proficiency side of it. But, and I apologize because I don't mean to be contrarian, I don't think that's how the feat is worded, which is the source of my confusion over it.
The elf is still proficient with some of the weapons in that group (lonbow, rapier, all the martials etc.). Hence, because the wording of the feat is "any of the weapons in that group" our pointy-eared wizard still can't use a curve blade proficiently but DOES get to apply the weird weapon focus.
Unfortunately the feat isn't worded "weapons named after your race" or what have you, it specifically mentions those listed under your weapon familiarity trait, which always seem to include martials.
Although that does help me see the intent, which appears to have been granting proficiency specifically with "race name" weapons and just suffers from unclear wording.
Yes, precisely what Bob said.
Good catch on gnomes, too.
I assume the feat is intended to do what the earlier posters suggest, but the odd wording makes it very confusing.
I think you two are missing the point.
Not really, since I was answering this question: "Can anyone think of a scenario where you have the weapon familiarity racial trait but still aren't proficient with your race's weapons?" I thought that should be addressed before delving into the wording of Ancestral Weapon Mastery. But now I'm unclear why that question was asked if the answer was already known.
Benefit(s): You're proficient with all of your race's racial weapons (the weapons mentioned in your race's weapon familiarity racial trait). If you're already proficient with any of those weapons, you instead gain Weapon Focus for one of those weapons as a bonus feat. Furthermore, if you gain Weapon Focus as a bonus feat with one of your racial weapons as a result of this feat, you can change which racial weapon your bonus Weapon Focus feat applies to by engaging in 10 minutes of practice with the new weapon.
The benefits of this bonus Weapon Focus feat last until you choose to practice and apply it to a different racial weapon.
...I see where the wording is confusing. It could be read that if you possess familiarity with at least one racial weapon, then it replaces giving you proficiency with all of them with the bonus feat that can be applied to any racial weapon, even one you don't have proficiency for.
However, as you mentioned, this makes the first half useless. So, I think we read it the other way, where it is replacing the individual weapon proficiency benefits with just the weapons you're already proficient with, with the bonus feat.
For what it's worth, gnomes do not gain any weapon automatically from their own Weapon Familiarity trait, so a gnome wizard wouldn't gain a bonus Weapon Focus on anything.
Apologies for the unclear wording. I should have said "not proficient with ANY of the weapon familiarity weapons." That "any" appears to be the crux of the matter.
I do see what you mean about the wording of the feat. There might be some ambiguity about the meaning of the second use of "those weapons."
You're proficient with all of your race's racial weapons (the weapons mentioned in your race's weapon familiarity racial trait).
If you're already proficient with any of those weapons, you instead gain Weapon Focus for one of those weapons as a bonus feat.
I see that use of "those weapons" as referring to the ones in which you are already proficient (mentioned earlier in that sentence) rather than the entire group of weapons mentioned in the previous sentence. So an Elven Wizard with the Weapon Familiarity racial trait would be proficient with the longsword, rapier, and bows but not the Elven curve blade or Elven branched spear. By my reading Ancestral Weapon Mastery would only grant you Weapon Focus with the longsword, rapier, or bows.
If I understand your interpretation, the second use of "those weapons" refers to the entire set of weapons mentioned in the Weapon Familiarity racial trait regardless of whether you have proficiency in all of them. Under that interpretation it does suggest that the Elven Wizard could get Weapon Focus with an Elven curve blade even though he isn't proficient with it. That causes all kinds of problems since proficiency with a weapon is normally a prerequisite for Weapon Focus.
I can see why the parallel usage of "those weapons" might suggest that the second interpretation is correct, but if you use the first interpretation all of the issues that you are concerned about simply disappear. For me that consistency is enough reason to consider that the correct reading.
Apologies for the unclear wording. I should have said "not proficient with ANY of the weapon familiarity weapons." That "any" appears to be the crux of the matter.
Sorry, I got busy with something else in the middle of typing up my last post so this post slipped by me. Maybe I still missed your point. Were you originally talking about a Dwarven Wizard who traded out the Weapon Familiarity racial trait?
I do see what you mean about the wording of the feat. There might be some ambiguity about the meaning of the second use of "those weapons."
You're proficient with all of your race's racial weapons (the weapons mentioned in your race's weapon familiarity racial trait).
If you're already proficient with any of those weapons, you instead gain Weapon Focus for one of those weapons as a bonus feat.
I see that use of "those weapons" as referring to the ones in which you are already proficient (mentioned earlier in that sentence) rather than the entire group of weapons mentioned in the previous sentence. So an Elven Wizard with the Weapon Familiarity racial trait would be proficient with the longsword, rapier, and bows but not the Elven curve blade or Elven branched spear. By my reading Ancestral Weapon Mastery would only grant you Weapon Focus with the longsword, rapier, or bows.
If I understand your interpretation, the second use of "those weapons" refers to the entire set of weapons mentioned in the Weapon Familiarity racial trait regardless of whether you have proficiency in all of them. Under that interpretation it does suggest that the Elven Wizard could get Weapon Focus with an Elven curve blade even though he isn't proficient with it. That causes all kinds of problems since proficiency with a weapon is normally a prerequisite for Weapon Focus.
I can see why the parallel usage of "those weapons" might suggest that the second interpretation is correct, but if you use the first interpretation all of the issues that you are concerned about simply disappear. For me that consistency is enough reason to consider that the correct reading.
The issues I see with it is with the words ANY and INSTEAD. "If you're already proficient with ANY of those weapons, you INSTEAD gain Weapon Focus..." So if you are proficient in any of your racial weapons (and you have to be, because Weapon Familiarity) you gain Weapon Focus INSTEAD of gaining proficiency in all your race's racial weapons. By the wording of the feat, you can never get the added proficiencies that are the supposed default option, because you'll always be proficient in some of your racial weapons.
My initial thought was that the feat would make a lot more sense if ANY was changed to ALL, but then why would the 2nd option need to exist, when it would then amount to the same thing as just taking Weapon Focus to begin with? I honestly have no idea what this feat is actually meant to accomplish...
This is one sentence, and syntactically one logical statement. (IF THEN)
If you're already proficient with any of those weapons, you instead gain Weapon Focus for one of those weapons as a bonus feat.
If you take them separately they are meaningless. It is correctly self referential.
The rules are rife with ambiguous and badly syntaxed statements. This is not one of them.
Apologies for the unclear wording. I should have said "not proficient with ANY of the weapon familiarity weapons." That "any" appears to be the crux of the matter.Sorry, I got busy with something else in the middle of typing up my last post so this post slipped by me. Maybe I still missed your point. Were you originally talking about a Dwarven Wizard who traded out the Weapon Familiarity racial trait?
No, just responding to your comment about the question of "can anyone think of a scenario ..." There are obviously cases of "proficient with some of your racial weapons but not all." So I should have said "Can anyone think of a scenario where you have weapon familiarity but wouldn't be proficient with ANY of your racial weapons."
Various posters have done so: Gnomes.
All of that is merely illustrative though. A way of explaining my confusion over the wording of the feat. The existence of one race that does meet the requirements for what I'll call "option A" -- as in my original post -- doesn't really make the funky wording any better.
Incidentally, I do believe the "intended to give proficiency with 'race name here' weapons" interpretation is obviously RAI and should be played that way.
This is one sentence, and syntactically one logical statement. (IF THEN)
If you're already proficient with any of those weapons, you instead gain Weapon Focus for one of those weapons as a bonus feat.
If you take them separately they are meaningless. It is correctly self referential.
The rules are rife with ambiguous and badly syntaxed statements. This is not one of them.
My issue isn't with the syntax of the feat's IF/THEN benefit. If proficient then get weapon focus. Simple enough.
My problem with the feat is that the inclusion of the word "any" covers many martial weapons mentioned under the various racial familiarity traits. By virtue of having the trait in the firstplace, you will always (except for gnomes) be proficienct in at least some of those weapons, thereby making the first part of the feat useless for most characters.
You'd get your cool version of weapon focus instead, but no extra proficiencies.
The obvious solution is to interpret it as "any of 'race name' weapons" as earlier posters have suggested, which I believe is the original intent of the feat.
PS: Apologies to the mods, it occurs to this should really be under Rules -- I was very sleepy last night. Mea culpa.
For elves there is this.
Arcane Focus: Some elven families have such long traditions of producing wizards (and other arcane spellcasters) that they raise their children with the assumption each is destined to be a powerful magic-user, with little need for mundane concerns such as skill with weapons. Elves with this racial trait gain a +2 racial bonus on concentration checks made to cast arcane spells defensively. This racial trait replaces weapon familiarity.
An elven wizard with that alternative racial trait would not be proficient in any of the racial weapons.
Needs FAQ. Marked as such.
For elves there is this.
Arcane Focus: Some elven families have such long traditions of producing wizards (and other arcane spellcasters) that they raise their children with the assumption each is destined to be a powerful magic-user, with little need for mundane concerns such as skill with weapons. Elves with this racial trait gain a +2 racial bonus on concentration checks made to cast arcane spells defensively. This racial trait replaces weapon familiarity.
An elven wizard with that alternative racial trait would not be proficient in any of the racial weapons.
Yes but in that case you do not possess the weapon familiarity trait and thus do not qualify for the feat.
If ANY is needed because of gnomes. It implies that they recognize that a gnome wizard will get less advantage than another race.
IF THEN is a one way statement. Gaining the cool focus has no logical effect on the first half of statement.
I think you are trying to read an IF AND ONLY IF statement into it that does not exist.
Ok let's break this down:
1: You have weapon familiarity as a racial trait. This is required for the feat. Trading the trait away doesn't come into play.
2: Your trait grants you proficiency with a handful of martial weapons (as is the case for dwarves, elves, half-orcs etc. Basically everyone but gnomes). Let's call this Weapon Group A.
3. Your trait also lets you treat certain "race-flavored" exotics as martial weapons. We'll call this Weapon Group B.
Our hypothetical half-orc/elf/dwarf wizard now gains proficiency with assorted martial weapons but not the various exotics.
The first part of the feat grants proficiency with all weapons named in your trait -- of which group A and group B are subsets. This works great for gnomes, since their trait only covers group B.
But our hypothetical wizard isn't a gnome, so he or she already is proficient with SOME of the weapons mentioned in the trait.
The second half of the feat stipulates that IF our wizard friend is proficient with ANY of the aforementioned weapons, he or she INSTEAD receives the floating weapon focus option.
SOME -- specifically Weapon Group A -- here is a subset of ANY.
IF ANY INSTEAD THEN.
Because we're already proficient with Weapon Group A, we INSTEAD receive the bonus, but Weapon Group B remains out of reach.
Scrips,
Not a correct reading
The first sentence is unqualified. Period.
You're proficient with all of your race's racial weapons (the weapons mentioned in your race's weapon familiarity racial trait).
The second sentence tells you that if you are already proficient with any or all of them, you still get something out of the feat, the floating Focus, but only for those weapons you already had proficiency with. But, you only get the Floating Focus on those weapons that you already have proficiency in, (Giving Martials a little loving.)
After Furthermore it just explains how the floating works and is otherwise irrelevant to whether you gain a proficiency, or an option for the floating focus for a specific weapon.
So, using your format:
You receive the floating focus only for one of those weapons in your group A.
You receive weapon proficiency for all of those weapons in your group B.
OK. That makes sense. I still think the wording is off -- it perhaps should read:
"If you are already proficient with any of these weapons you additionally ... " as opposed to "instead," but I think you've managed to clarify it.
I'm a little confused about how this feat works.
It requires racial weapon familiarity and either A) grants you proficiency will the weapons mentioned in your race's trait or B) if "you are proficient with ANY" of those weapons instead grants you a flexible version of weapon focus.
The thing is, if you have weapon familiarity then you will always be proficient with at least some of the weapons in the group.
There is never a scenario where option A plays out.
Take a level 1 wizard for example: Not exactly a paragon of martial aptitude. Proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff. That's it. But, you're no regular wizard, you're a dwarf wizard. You're automatically proficient with the heavy pick, warhammer and battle axe.
Ergo, option B goes into play and you get the weapon focus version of the feat instead of say, proficiency with a longhammer.
Is that how it's supposed to work? Can anyone think of a scenario where you have the weapon familiarity racial trait but still aren't proficient with your race's weapons? Should it instead read "if you are proficient with all" then etc.?
You're an elven wizard or cleric. while you start out with the standard elven proficiencies, this trait gives you proficiency with the elven curved blade which you would not get, not being martially proficient.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, it would be easier to understand with that wording, it would only be open to the quibble that additional presupposes that you actually gained a proficiency that you already had.
You know that someone on these forums would point that out for their Irritatingly Clever badge.
Long ignored thread - but I will point out that I have used this feat to good use when building a character with some weapon progression intended. I have a dual wielding fighter - crit fishing, so using dual leafblades at early levels, so the two-handed penalties are lessened because light. At later levels, as the two-weapon penalties are mitigated some, can switch to using thornblades instead. By using Ancestral Weapon Mastery, I'm able to have that weapon focus on the leafblades early on, and shift it to the thronblades once changing gear (around level 4 or so), without having to retrain the weapon focus.
Well, you can go this route. Just be aware upgrading to a thornblade just adds +1 damage in average (average of 1d4 is 2.5, 1d6 is 3.5), at the expense of 2 points of attack bonus (which are worth 4 points of damage, by standard Pathfinder math).