Arazni's second death question

[Heki Lightbringer]

Should not she just be destroyed (when killed by Tar-Baphon) after dying as an outsider on the material plane?

She have already went through the cycle of souls before (when she died as mortal and then became herold of Aroden).

Or can one soul go through Pharasma's court multiple times or what?

[keftiu]

Heki Lightbringer wrote:

Should not she just be destroyed (when killed by Tar-Baphon) after dying as an outsider on the material plane?

She have already went through the cycle of souls before (when she died as mortal and then became herold of Aroden).

Or can one soul go through Pharasma's court multiple times or what?

Given that she’s been granting divine spells to her followers since 1e and was a divine herald in life, it seems very likely that she hasn’t counted as a mortal or a normal outsider in a very long time.

She’s firmly a god now, at the very least.

[Kasoh]

So, when an outsider is called, their body is physically on the plane in which they were called to. So, by summoning a Herald, you bring a physical entity to this plane.

Called outsiders can die and their corpses remain. They have blood, organs, and other such things. As an outsider, Arazni's soul and body were the same object. Her body was interred in Lastwall.

I don't think her soul would have been judged again. But whatever Geb did, he turned Arazni into a lich, so her soul had to have contained in some phylactery of some sort--until she pulled her Radiant Fire gambit with Tar-Baphon. Maybe the jars that contained her organs were in fact parts of a Voldemort style phylactery. Dunno. It was never explained.

[The Raven Black]

Interesting point. I had not realized that the parts of Arazni's body were also pieces of her soul.

[Heki Lightbringer]

Thank you for your answers, you are right. I found this: "Unlike many divinities, Arazni has a single, fixed form and a finite realm on the
Material Plane."
So it means that her body was also her soul.

I just thought that I have read somewhere that Geb took 1 year long journey through multiverse to find her soul and grab her back.

But maybe I just imagined it myself or it was from some older source. There is some inconsistency in Pathfinder Lore through the years.

But what Kasoh said works for me well, thx.

[Kasoh]

When an outsider dies, it is supposed to turn into the material of their corresponding plane and disappear, at least when they die in the outer planes--now, this is not stated as happening instantaneously, so it could be the natural end point of body decay for outsiders. The interaction between the material plane, called outsiders, and the disposition of their souls is a niche interaction that I hadn't noticed before, but its actually all over the place. Devil's blood is a spell component, as are other sundry pieces of outsiders. (Angel skin is something you can have an armor of.) The difference between summoned, called, and plane shift are kind of documented--though its been treated differently at various tables throughout history.

I recall my first experience with outsiders was reading an RA Salvatore novel where outsiders bamf'd back to their homeplane instead of dying, but that's a power only Demon Lords have on Golarion.

I'm going to think about this some more, because it does feel like there's something missing.

[Yakman]

yeah, this is another thing that I do not like about Lost Omens. Paizo did the same thing with THREE big evil NPCs [all women, all pretty much as evil as all get out], and it's just repetitive.

[Perpdepog]

Kasoh wrote:

When an outsider dies, it is supposed to turn into the material of their corresponding plane and disappear, at least when they die in the outer planes--now, this is not stated as happening instantaneously, so it could be the natural end point of body decay for outsiders. The interaction between the material plane, called outsiders, and the disposition of their souls is a niche interaction that I hadn't noticed before, but its actually all over the place. Devil's blood is a spell component, as are other sundry pieces of outsiders. (Angel skin is something you can have an armor of.) The difference between summoned, called, and plane shift are kind of documented--though its been treated differently at various tables throughout history.

I recall my first experience with outsiders was reading an RA Salvatore novel where outsiders bamf'd back to their homeplane instead of dying, but that's a power only Demon Lords have on Golarion.

I'm going to think about this some more, because it does feel like there's something missing.

As far as I'm aware, it's also not possible to reanimate an outsider as an undead, and it's also not possible to turn someone else into a lich; that is supposed to be a very personalized process. Geb did both of those things though, and on top of all that hinkiness we are dealing with someone who was a divine herald, possibly demi-divinity, at the time.

I think that's mostly what we're missing. It's like we are all operating with the newtonian physics-levels of magical theory, and actors like Geb (Or the Whispering Tyrant, who was able to turn psychopomps into mummies) are working with the principles of magical quantum mechanics. They're operating at levels where the rules of magic, as presented in the books and rules, are more like stern guidelines, maybe even suggestions.

[Vorsk, Follower or Erastil]

Perpdepog wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

When an outsider dies, it is supposed to turn into the material of their corresponding plane and disappear, at least when they die in the outer planes--now, this is not stated as happening instantaneously, so it could be the natural end point of body decay for outsiders. The interaction between the material plane, called outsiders, and the disposition of their souls is a niche interaction that I hadn't noticed before, but its actually all over the place. Devil's blood is a spell component, as are other sundry pieces of outsiders. (Angel skin is something you can have an armor of.) The difference between summoned, called, and plane shift are kind of documented--though its been treated differently at various tables throughout history.

I recall my first experience with outsiders was reading an RA Salvatore novel where outsiders bamf'd back to their homeplane instead of dying, but that's a power only Demon Lords have on Golarion.

I'm going to think about this some more, because it does feel like there's something missing.

As far as I'm aware, it's also not possible to reanimate an outsider as an undead, and it's also not possible to turn someone else into a lich; that is supposed to be a very personalized process. Geb did both of those things though, and on top of all that hinkiness we are dealing with someone who was a divine herald, possibly demi-divinity, at the time.

I think that's mostly what we're missing. It's like we are all operating with the newtonian physics-levels of magical theory, and actors like Geb (Or the Whispering Tyrant, who was able to turn psychopomps into mummies) are working with the principles of magical quantum mechanics. They're operating at levels where the rules of magic, as presented in the books and rules, are more like stern guidelines, maybe even suggestions.

There is the animated undead head of a succubus in Council of Thieves, the very first Pathfinder 1E ap, so clearly its something that can be done. And Carrion Crown is all about a unique potion that can turn someone into a lich

[Kasoh]

It'll likely depend on the undead.

In PF2 creatures are more bespoke, so you can make pretty much whatever by writing "Angel Zombie" as the creature types, but in PF1 the various templates

Vampire: “Vampire” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature with 5 or more Hit Dice (referred to hereafter as the base creature). Most vampires were once humanoids, fey, or monstrous humanoids.

“Zombie” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead), referred to hereafter as the base creature.

“Skeleton” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

“Lich” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery soulcage. A lich retains all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

And so on. So, outsiders meet most of those requirements and can likely become undeads of various types.

What Geb did though seriously broke some assumed rules about how lichdom works. Now, he is a necromancer second to none and had mythic shenanigans and the power of plot on his side. However, since he wasn't all that interested in making more than 1 lich, we can't say if it was a one off due to unique circumstances or just a thing that Geb can do if he gets his goat up.

My current theory is that due to the unique Outsider/Soul status He could still entrap the soul in a soul cage as he still had access to Arazni's soul as it was her body. Its the doing it to a corpse part that makes me curious.

[Dragonchess Player]

Vorsk, Follower or Erastil wrote:

There is the animated undead head of a succubus in Council of Thieves

Erinyes, not a succubus (What Lies in Dust, pg. 10-11).

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

While we're getting necrotic in here, we do know that gods indeed can be turned into undead. Even if Urgathoa of the core 20 didn't exist or doesn't count, we also have Osiris from Osirion.

I don't know if this applies to pathfinder gods, but if (most) gods were to have any PF1 creature type it would be Outsider. Speaking of Carrion Crown spoilers, Renchurch has a few interesting effects on living creatures which die within its walls which gave me pause whether they also applied to Outsiders which I can't discuss in detail yet since I don't have time to craft a set of spoiler tags just now

[PossibleCabbage]

keftiu wrote:

Yakman wrote:

yeah, this is another thing that I do not like about Lost Omens. Paizo did the same thing with THREE big evil NPCs [all women, all pretty much as evil as all get out], and it's just repetitive.

Is Arazni "evil as all get out?" She was the patron saint of a Goodly militant order during her time as Aroden's herald. Her role in Geb was something forced upon her.

Also, her 2e god rules still say Neutral Evil right next to the name.

It's also pretty likely that she's the power behind the Crimson Oath.

Plus, I mean, you can't be "evil as all get out" if you're granting spells to CG clerics. It's unlikely that NE is her final alignment, but since she's been freed after nearly a thousand years of cruel torment and humiliation, her whole "hurt those that hurt you" creed is allowed to be a little selfish.

[keftiu]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Yakman wrote:

yeah, this is another thing that I do not like about Lost Omens. Paizo did the same thing with THREE big evil NPCs [all women, all pretty much as evil as all get out], and it's just repetitive.

Is Arazni "evil as all get out?" She was the patron saint of a Goodly militant order during her time as Aroden's herald. Her role in Geb was something forced upon her.

Also, her 2e god rules still say Neutral Evil right next to the name.

It's also pretty likely that she's the power behind the Crimson Oath.

Plus, I mean, you can't be "evil as all get out" if you're granting spells to CG clerics. It's unlikely that NE is her final alignment, but since she's been freed after nearly a thousand years of cruel torment and humiliation, her whole "hurt those that hurt you" creed is allowed to be a little selfish.

I also expect her arc to continue (and am eager for what teases the Knights of Lastwall book may bring!), but I expect her to probably land somewhere Neutral - moving beyond both her Good and Evil prior selves.

One wonders if anyone in Arcadia knows what's happened to her since she left; she's a child of Xopatl, after all.

[The Raven Black]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

While we're getting necrotic in here, we do know that gods indeed can be turned into undead. Even if Urgathoa of the core 20 didn't exist or doesn't count, we also have Osiris from Osirion.

I don't know if this applies to pathfinder gods, but if (most) gods were to have any PF1 creature type it would be Outsider. Speaking of Carrion Crown spoilers, Renchurch has a few interesting effects on living creatures which die within its walls which gave me pause whether they also applied to Outsiders which I can't discuss in detail yet since I don't have time to craft a set of spoiler tags just now

The gods are not Outsiders. They are never described as being made of alignment and IIRC some predate the aligned planes.

And they seem able to change alignment more naturally (ie, like mortals) than Outsiders do.

TBT the relation between the deities on one side and the Outsiders and Aligned planes on the other side is extremely curious.

See Gorum's realm for example.

[Kasoh]

The Raven Black wrote:

The gods are not Outsiders. They are never described as being made of alignment and IIRC some predate the aligned planes.

And they seem able to change alignment more naturally (ie, like mortals) than Outsiders do.

TBT the relation between the deities on one side and the Outsiders and Aligned planes on the other side is extremely curious.

See Gorum's realm for example.

I'm not sure about deities changing alignment like mortals. Our sample size for changing alignment deities is small, but its far more common for outsiders to change alignment than deities. (Granted my only sizable example is the city of Basrakal with its 713400 outsiders who have defied their alignment in some fashion) Now there are more outsiders than deities, so big shrug as to how that actually works out percentage wise.

Dou-Bral. Noticula. Arazni. Lissala. Those are the only ones I can think of, but this is the internet, someone will complete that list. Anyhoo, their changes were the result of significant events. Noticula is the only one who appeared to really work at it, but both she and Lissala were demigods who ascended after committing to their new alignment. (Not to disparage Arazni's own efforts, but we haven't seen where that's landed yet.)

Also, Gorum's house on Elysium is fascinating to me.

[The Raven Black]

IIRC Lissala was already a full deity when she was LN.

[SOLDIER-1st]

Outsiders can become undead.

(Not saying it was particularly in question, just providing more evidence.)

[Kasoh]

The Raven Black wrote:

IIRC Lissala was already a full deity when she was LN.

Yeah, I was going off the Paragonwiki article which seemed to indicate otherwise.

Paragonwiki wrote:

Lissala eventually embraced the evil sin magic and became a true deity.

/shrug.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

SOLDIER-1st wrote:

Outsiders can become undead.

(Not saying it was particularly in question, just providing more evidence.)

Oh that is most valuable intel for my earlier conundrum. It confirms what I already decided to do but gives me more confidence in the implications of that view. Some questions remain owing to the singular nature of outsiders--since they are a soul given physical form, but evidence suggests their bodies don't always break down and dissolve immediately, do you suppose that a demon ghost can't form until the body dissolves (because you would then have a body made out of soul and the soul as separate entities which violates the implications of soul-body unity) or do you suppose that the spirit matter of the demon's body can simply be shed into inert quintessence which does not have a soul, essentially recreating body-soul duality for outsiders with a different name?

Raven Black wrote:

The gods are not Outsiders. They are never described as being made of alignment and IIRC some predate the aligned planes.

No, of course not. To view demigods we can see that in 1e the great old ones were aberrations, the eldest are likely fey, and Arazni is simply classed as undead (human). Full gods do not have stats and do did not have anything we could call a creature type. If we were forced to, we might call many of them outsiders however. Outsiders being made of alignment is both accurate but not complete in my opinion. Outsiders are made of spirit stuff called quintessence which forms the substance of the outer sphere. Most quintessence falls into alignment categories out there, but some is neutral.

Even if we drop 1e's native outsiders, there are the elementals and genies of the inner sphere, and in the astral plane there were several individual species of outsider who did not seem to have a specific association with the alignments or outer planes. There's even a case to be made that 'neutral' isn't its own alignment energy since you can channel it with magic, so psychopomps are then made of unaligned spirit energy.

Naturally, these are part of the reason why the overly broad 1e category Outsider got dropped for several smaller categories, but they suggest that outsiders being made of alignment isn't the full story as far as that category goes. I maintain that if somehow the gods were reduced in power enough to have 1e stat blocks, most of them would probably be outrageously powerful outsiders, while others would likely become other things--Urgathoa as an undead like night shades, for example. Lamashtu obviously would return to demon lord status. Given Pharasma's origin, she was probably an Outsider before godhood. The ascended could return to being humans, but given that mortal Paladins could become Outsiders at level 20, the star stone may well have shifted them.

[Yakman]

keftiu wrote:

Yakman wrote:

yeah, this is another thing that I do not like about Lost Omens. Paizo did the same thing with THREE big evil NPCs [all women, all pretty much as evil as all get out], and it's just repetitive.

Is Arazni "evil as all get out?" She was the patron saint of a Goodly militant order during her time as Aroden's herald. Her role in Geb was something forced upon her.

Also, her 2e god rules still say Neutral Evil right next to the name.

EDIT: Why necro a thread from five months ago to be mad about fictional women?

a vampire is a good guy. when he's alive. then he becomes a vampire and he's evil.

[keftiu]

Yakman wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Yakman wrote:

yeah, this is another thing that I do not like about Lost Omens. Paizo did the same thing with THREE big evil NPCs [all women, all pretty much as evil as all get out], and it's just repetitive.

Is Arazni "evil as all get out?" She was the patron saint of a Goodly militant order during her time as Aroden's herald. Her role in Geb was something forced upon her.

Also, her 2e god rules still say Neutral Evil right next to the name.

EDIT: Why necro a thread from five months ago to be mad about fictional women?

a vampire is a good guy. when he's alive. then he becomes a vampire and he's evil.

Tyrant’s Grasp book 6 literally details a vampire guy who grants spells to Good followers.

[PossibleCabbage]

I really wonder what the dynamic is like in a party that contains a (CG) Liberator of Arazni, an (NE) Desecrator of Arazni, and a (LN) Cleric of Arazni.

[Gisher]

The Raven Black wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

While we're getting necrotic in here, we do know that gods indeed can be turned into undead. Even if Urgathoa of the core 20 didn't exist or doesn't count, we also have Osiris from Osirion.

I don't know if this applies to pathfinder gods, but if (most) gods were to have any PF1 creature type it would be Outsider. Speaking of Carrion Crown spoilers, Renchurch has a few interesting effects on living creatures which die within its walls which gave me pause whether they also applied to Outsiders which I can't discuss in detail yet since I don't have time to craft a set of spoiler tags just now

The gods are not Outsiders. They are never described as being made of alignment and IIRC some predate the aligned planes.

And they seem able to change alignment more naturally (ie, like mortals) than Outsiders do.

TBT the relation between the deities on one side and the Outsiders and Aligned planes on the other side is extremely curious.

See Gorum's realm for example.

It also seems possible that different rules apply to different deities. Some might be capable of changing alignment while others can't. Perhaps some can be turned into undead while others can't.

Their lack of stat-blocks suggests to me that they are beyond a standardized ruleset. Similarly we have case where a number of gods have been killed, but Ydersius is somehow still hanging on despite being killed. The rules seem to be different for Ydersius.

[keftiu]

Ydersius' present state is one of many reasons I want Serpentfolk playable. The patron god of humanity is dead - but their own persists beyond death!

[chavamana]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Vorsk, Follower or Erastil wrote:

There is the animated undead head of a succubus in Council of Thieves

Erinyes, not a succubus (What Lies in Dust, pg. 10-11).

Also not animated undead head. Living head. Which was a means to punish her and torture her to insanity. Moloch destroyed her body but she wasn't dead.

I loved having her as a NPC in my CoT game. One of my players eventually stole a scroll of wish to get her body back.

[Gisher]

keftiu wrote:

Ydersius' present state is one of many reasons I want Serpentfolk playable. The patron god of humanity is dead - but their own persists beyond death!

I love the tale about Old Mage Jatembe learning magical secrets from Ydersius' severed head. It's a great nod to the story of Odin gaining magical knowledge from the severed head of Mimir.

[The Raven Black]

Gisher wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

While we're getting necrotic in here, we do know that gods indeed can be turned into undead. Even if Urgathoa of the core 20 didn't exist or doesn't count, we also have Osiris from Osirion.

I don't know if this applies to pathfinder gods, but if (most) gods were to have any PF1 creature type it would be Outsider. Speaking of Carrion Crown spoilers, Renchurch has a few interesting effects on living creatures which die within its walls which gave me pause whether they also applied to Outsiders which I can't discuss in detail yet since I don't have time to craft a set of spoiler tags just now

The gods are not Outsiders. They are never described as being made of alignment and IIRC some predate the aligned planes.

And they seem able to change alignment more naturally (ie, like mortals) than Outsiders do.

TBT the relation between the deities on one side and the Outsiders and Aligned planes on the other side is extremely curious.

See Gorum's realm for example.

It also seems possible that different rules apply to different deities. Some might be capable of changing alignment while others can't. Perhaps some can be turned into undead while others can't.

Their lack of stat-blocks suggests to me that they are beyond a standardized ruleset. Similarly we have case where a number of gods have been killed, but Ydersius is somehow still hanging on despite being killed. The rules seem to be different for Ydersius.

I believe Pharasma will always be True Neutral because the other 8 alignments, in a way, were based on how they differed from her.

Achaekek's example shows that even one of the primordial 8 can change their alignment. Here from LN to LE.

Note that the LN alignment itself as well as the LN aligned plane and aligned outsiders survived this change.

[Grankless]

keftiu wrote:

Yakman wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Yakman wrote:

yeah, this is another thing that I do not like about Lost Omens. Paizo did the same thing with THREE big evil NPCs [all women, all pretty much as evil as all get out], and it's just repetitive.

Is Arazni "evil as all get out?" She was the patron saint of a Goodly militant order during her time as Aroden's herald. Her role in Geb was something forced upon her.

Also, her 2e god rules still say Neutral Evil right next to the name.

EDIT: Why necro a thread from five months ago to be mad about fictional women?

a vampire is a good guy. when he's alive. then he becomes a vampire and he's evil.

Tyrant’s Grasp book 6 literally details a vampire guy who grants spells to Good followers.

The Kaer Maga book discusses an LN vampire who pays people for blood (and pays generous severance packages to anyone who wants to resign from that gig).

[The Raven Black]

The transformation into undead usually makes people Evil AFAIK, except Ghosts IIRC. That said, the undead are still people (those who have a mind that is) and can pursue redemption, just like any Evil person.

[Grankless]

It's less that you become evil and more that it becomes very hard to not do evil deeds, as you're powered by destructive negative energy and are driven to do bad things. It takes work to not give in! And that's cool.

[Perpdepog]

Grankless wrote:

It's less that you become evil and more that it becomes very hard to not do evil deeds, as you're powered by destructive negative energy and are driven to do bad things. It takes work to not give in! And that's cool.

Yeah. It's the mindset of someone being powered by a form of energy doing the opposite of what it's supposed to be doing.

It's why so many creatures left over by the Radiant Fire are insanely destructive; it's got them coming and going. Positive energy is being used as a destructive weapon, and negative energy is filling the vacuum left behind and animating all the leftovers.

[PossibleCabbage]

It's even canonical that a certain mythic lich you meet in Wrath of the Righteous is capable of genuinely seeking redemption (which is going to be incredibly difficult, but it's not entirely impossible.)

Sure, "Redemption" is one of the themes of the AP, but other than "things which are literally made of the elemental essence of evil" it's hard to get eviler than "Lich."

[Grankless]

What was that guy's name again? Spoiler it, I forgot it and cannot for the life of me remember. I was sure annoyed he didn't seem to be in the game, but Owlcat wouldn't recognize a theme or moral for the life of them.

[PossibleCabbage]

Grankless wrote:

What was that guy's name again? Spoiler it, I forgot it and cannot for the life of me remember. I was sure annoyed he didn't seem to be in the game, but Owlcat wouldn't recognize a theme or moral for the life of them.

Spoiler:

Alderpash. He was the first runelord of wrath, who subsequently became a Lich and was imprisoned by Baphomet for long enough that he's willing to do *anything* (including "become good") in order to get free.

[Kasoh]

Grankless wrote:

What was that guy's name again? Spoiler it, I forgot it and cannot for the life of me remember. I was sure annoyed he didn't seem to be in the game, but Owlcat wouldn't recognize a theme or moral for the life of them.

He's in the game. Not how I would played him, but he was there and it felt true enough to his circumstance.