Animal companion options

[Renarin Kholin]

So I'm looking at creating a hunter and am currently deciding on an animal companion...
I would like to choose a megaloceros. Is this a legal option even if I only have bestiary 2 and not kingmaker?

[BigNorseWolf]

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary 2

Animal Companions: baboon, compsognathus, gar, hippopotamus, manta ray, ram, giant snapping turtle, stingray

So not legal there.

Kingmaker

Pathfinder Adventure Path #31: "Stolen Land"

Animal Companions: elk, megaloceros, thylacine

Technically you'd need kingmaker but if the two stats are identical I couldn't see a good argument for not allowing it.

[John Compton]

So long as you have one of the books that references and supplies statistics for the animal companion, you should be good. There might be an exception out there that I've missed, so it's always good to check the Additional Resources document to be sure it's a legal option.

EDIT: Whoa, the megafauna don't appear in the B2 entry. That is bizarre. Because it's a book sanctioned before I started working on the campaign, I don't have any recollection of those not being allowed. Does anyone know if that's been the case for years, or is this some recent glitch I'm seeing?

[BigNorseWolf]

John Compton wrote:

So long as you have one of the books that references and supplies statistics for the animal companion, you should be good. There might be an exception out there that I've missed, so it's always good to check the Additional Resources document to be sure it's a legal option.

EDIT: Whoa, the megafauna don't appear in the B2 entry. That is bizarre. Because it's a book sanctioned before I started working on the campaign, I don't have any recollection of those not being allowed. Does anyone know if that's been the case for years, or is this some recent glitch I'm seeing?

Animals going extinct from the bestiary without notice has been a thing for a bit...

[John Compton]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

John Compton wrote:

So long as you have one of the books that references and supplies statistics for the animal companion, you should be good. There might be an exception out there that I've missed, so it's always good to check the Additional Resources document to be sure it's a legal option.

EDIT: Whoa, the megafauna don't appear in the B2 entry. That is bizarre. Because it's a book sanctioned before I started working on the campaign, I don't have any recollection of those not being allowed. Does anyone know if that's been the case for years, or is this some recent glitch I'm seeing?

Animals going extinct from the bestiary without notice has been a thing for a bit...

I know of a few, but the issue I'm getting at is that as the person inputting changes into the document, I am aware when those options are removed. This one was off my radar, hence my concern.

[Renarin Kholin]

So I had a friend look in their copy of Kingmaker, and the two megaloceros companions are slightly different. namely the kingmakers gore and natural armor bonus are slightly lower

[Ascalaphus]

My Goliath Druid would certainly appreciate it if more megafauna companions were allowed. Not that I don't appreciate Steffen the Stegosaurus of Holy Light, but...

[TimD]

John Compton wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

John Compton wrote:

So long as you have one of the books that references and supplies statistics for the animal companion, you should be good. There might be an exception out there that I've missed, so it's always good to check the Additional Resources document to be sure it's a legal option.

EDIT: Whoa, the megafauna don't appear in the B2 entry. That is bizarre. Because it's a book sanctioned before I started working on the campaign, I don't have any recollection of those not being allowed. Does anyone know if that's been the case for years, or is this some recent glitch I'm seeing?

Animals going extinct from the bestiary without notice has been a thing for a bit...

I know of a few, but the issue I'm getting at is that as the person inputting changes into the document, I am aware when those options are removed. This one was off my radar, hence my concern.

Just checked some of the old additional resources I had handy:

Additional Resources from 01/30/2013 wrote:

Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 Animal Companions: allosaurus, arsinoitherium, baboon, compsognathus,gar, glyptodon, hippopotamus, manta ray, megaloceros, megatherium, parasaurolophus, ram, giant snapping turtle, stingray, tylosaurus

Additional Resources from 08/14/2013 wrote:

Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 Animal Companions: baboon, compsognathus, gar, hippopotamus, manta ray, ram, giant snapping turtle, stingray

... so looks like sometime between January and August 2013.

Hope that helps.

[Paz]

Interesting; checking the Wayback Machine, the change seems to have been made between 28 Aug 2014 and 1 Oct 2014.

EDIT: Some discussion HERE and HERE.

[Ascalaphus]

There are quite a few dinosaurs that I don't really understand why they aren't legal - they're not that unusually powerful. Like the diplodocus, parasaurolophus or tylosaurus. As for megafauna, I think pretty much nothing in bestiary 2 and 3 is legal. But the megafauna from Bestiary 5 is legal - perhaps because it was also legal from Giantslayer?

Is there some kind of plan here, or is it a clerical error? Since I'm only allowed dinosaurs and megafauna for my goliath druid (with designs on mammoth rider), I'd like to know.

[Jason Wu]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

My Goliath Druid would certainly appreciate it if more megafauna companions were allowed. Not that I don't appreciate Steffen the Stegosaurus of Holy Light, but...

Ditto. My goliath druid spent all of one adventure with her Allosaurus before we realized it had been removed as a legal choice. As much as the Tyrannosaur is fun, it's not the same, even if his bite is a lot nastier.

-j

[John Compton]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

There are quite a few dinosaurs that I don't really understand why they aren't legal - they're not that unusually powerful. Like the diplodocus, parasaurolophus or tylosaurus. As for megafauna, I think pretty much nothing in bestiary 2 and 3 is legal. But the megafauna from Bestiary 5 is legal - perhaps because it was also legal from Giantslayer?

Is there some kind of plan here, or is it a clerical error? Since I'm only allowed dinosaurs and megafauna for my goliath druid (with designs on mammoth rider), I'd like to know.

Some of those were purposeful, but a number of the absences appear clerical. I'm investigating the inconsistencies now.

[FLite]

I know that there have been several times where an attempt to update the AR has resulted in things being accidentally dropped from it. Could this be more of the same? The fact that it was not noted as a change at the time it happened would seem to indicate it was unintentional.

Ninjaed, darn it.

[UndeadMitch]

Just as long as the Spinosaurus and some of the other more busted options stays off the AR page.

[Ascalaphus]

John Compton wrote:

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

There are quite a few dinosaurs that I don't really understand why they aren't legal - they're not that unusually powerful. Like the diplodocus, parasaurolophus or tylosaurus. As for megafauna, I think pretty much nothing in bestiary 2 and 3 is legal. But the megafauna from Bestiary 5 is legal - perhaps because it was also legal from Giantslayer?

Is there some kind of plan here, or is it a clerical error? Since I'm only allowed dinosaurs and megafauna for my goliath druid (with designs on mammoth rider), I'd like to know.

Some of those were purposeful, but a number of the absences appear clerical. I'm investigating the inconsistencies now.

Thanks :)

[John Compton]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

There are quite a few dinosaurs that I don't really understand why they aren't legal - they're not that unusually powerful. Like the diplodocus, parasaurolophus or tylosaurus. As for megafauna, I think pretty much nothing in bestiary 2 and 3 is legal. But the megafauna from Bestiary 5 is legal - perhaps because it was also legal from Giantslayer?

Is there some kind of plan here, or is it a clerical error? Since I'm only allowed dinosaurs and megafauna for my goliath druid (with designs on mammoth rider), I'd like to know.

Some of those were purposeful, but a number of the absences appear clerical. I'm investigating the inconsistencies now.

Thanks :)

My examination suggests that most of the absent animal companion entries have either vanished in error, or the reasons for their disappearance are neither apparent to me nor recorded in any notes I have on the matter. Even if there were sound reasons for their exclusion before, I have flagged those entries for re-examination and likely reintroduction.

In the best of all worlds, it would be great to have a scenario or three that opened up these animal companion options (e.g. having the boon means all of a player's PCs can now train megatheriums and archelons as animal companions). Were such a scenario on the horizon, I might just leave these animals off the Additional Resources and include such a boon. However, I don't see a good candidate coming up in the next several months, and I have long since learned the difficulties of trying to contort an adventure to serve too many design masters.

There are still a few animal companion options that I am in no rush to reintroduce for campaign/design reasons. Perhaps those are the best candidates for boon inclusion down the line. In the meantime, I trust it will soon be easier to play a goliath druid.

[Damanta]

I would like to advocate for the Archelon (Megafauna, Bestiary 3) to remain in it's current not always available state.

There is a chronicle sheet that opens it up for a single character, maybe just adapt that chronicle?

Spoiler:

It can be found on chronicle 3 of Plunder and Peril

[Ascalaphus]

I intentionally didn't list all of the dinos; a few of them are noticeably more powerful than the rest. I was actually quite surprised to see the Ceratosaurus (B5) allowed.

[Flutter]

The park... is open

[Tharizdhun]

John Compton wrote:

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

There are quite a few dinosaurs that I don't really understand why they aren't legal - they're not that unusually powerful. Like the diplodocus, parasaurolophus or tylosaurus. As for megafauna, I think pretty much nothing in bestiary 2 and 3 is legal. But the megafauna from Bestiary 5 is legal - perhaps because it was also legal from Giantslayer?

Is there some kind of plan here, or is it a clerical error? Since I'm only allowed dinosaurs and megafauna for my goliath druid (with designs on mammoth rider), I'd like to know.

Some of those were purposeful, but a number of the absences appear clerical. I'm investigating the inconsistencies now.

Thanks :)

My examination suggests that most of the absent animal companion entries have either vanished in error, or the reasons for their disappearance are neither apparent to me nor recorded in any notes I have on the matter. Even if there were sound reasons for their exclusion before, I have flagged those entries for re-examination and likely reintroduction.

In the best of all worlds, it would be great to have a scenario or three that opened up these animal companion options (e.g. having the boon means all of a player's PCs can now train megatheriums and archelons as animal companions). Were such a scenario on the horizon, I might just leave these animals off the Additional Resources and include such a boon. However, I don't see a good candidate coming up in the next several months, and I have long since learned the difficulties of trying to contort an adventure to serve too many design masters.

There are still a few animal companion options that I am in no rush to reintroduce for campaign/design reasons. Perhaps those are the best candidates for boon inclusion down the line. In the meantime, I trust it will soon be easier to play a goliath druid.

Hopefully Spinausaurus is one of those. I will be able to bring my 5th lvl Saurian shaman out of retirement then.

[waltero]

Here's hoping megaloceros makes it back in.

[FiddlersGreen]

John Compton wrote:

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

There are quite a few dinosaurs that I don't really understand why they aren't legal - they're not that unusually powerful. Like the diplodocus, parasaurolophus or tylosaurus. As for megafauna, I think pretty much nothing in bestiary 2 and 3 is legal. But the megafauna from Bestiary 5 is legal - perhaps because it was also legal from Giantslayer?

Is there some kind of plan here, or is it a clerical error? Since I'm only allowed dinosaurs and megafauna for my goliath druid (with designs on mammoth rider), I'd like to know.

Some of those were purposeful, but a number of the absences appear clerical. I'm investigating the inconsistencies now.

Thanks :)

My examination suggests that most of the absent animal companion entries have either vanished in error, or the reasons for their disappearance are neither apparent to me nor recorded in any notes I have on the matter. Even if there were sound reasons for their exclusion before, I have flagged those entries for re-examination and likely reintroduction.

In the best of all worlds, it would be great to have a scenario or three that opened up these animal companion options (e.g. having the boon means all of a player's PCs can now train megatheriums and archelons as animal companions). Were such a scenario on the horizon, I might just leave these animals off the Additional Resources and include such a boon. However, I don't see a good candidate coming up in the next several months, and I have long since learned the difficulties of trying to contort an adventure to serve too many design masters.

There are still a few animal companion options that I am in no rush to reintroduce for campaign/design reasons. Perhaps those are the best candidates for boon inclusion down the line. In the meantime, I trust it will soon be easier to play a goliath druid.

This promises... to be a mammoth undertaking. ;)

[Ascalaphus]

Tharizdhun wrote:

Hopefully Spinausaurus is one of those. I will be able to bring my 5th lvl Saurian shaman out of retirement then.

I wouldn't count on it. It's quite possibly the most powerful AC, and John suggested some ACs are intentionally banned for power reasons.

It seems that it's hard to get an AC that gets all the following from the start:
- high strength (and therefore to-hit and damage)
- multiple natural attacks
- good Dex
- good natural armor class
- good Con

Even most of the really good ACs don't manage more than 3 of those, but the spinosaurus gets all of them.

[Tharizdhun]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

Tharizdhun wrote:

Hopefully Spinausaurus is one of those. I will be able to bring my 5th lvl Saurian shaman out of retirement then.

I wouldn't count on it. It's quite possibly the most powerful AC, and John suggested some ACs are intentionally banned for power reasons.

It seems that it's hard to get an AC that gets all the following from the start:
- high strength (and therefore to-hit and damage)
- multiple natural attacks
- good Dex
- good natural armor class
- good Con

Even most of the really good ACs don't manage more than 3 of those, but the spinosaurus gets all of them.

Lau,

Why don't you do a comparison between the spino and the core rule book wolf.

They are pretty equal spino gets a couple points more in str but the wolf gets a free trip.

Personally I think the wolf is more powerful than the spino

[claudekennilol]

Quote:

Spinosaurus

Starting Statistics

Size Medium; Speed 30 ft., swim 20 ft.; AC +3 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 3.

7th-Level Advancement

Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.

Quote:

Wolf

Starting Statistics

Size Medium; Speed 50 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6 plus trip); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.

7th-Level Advancement

Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.

That's a starting/ending str modifier difference of +3 which is a huge difference. I do love trips, but I wouldn't say it's better than 2 claw attacks.

[Quentin Coldwater]

Quick comparison between the two:
- Wolf has much more speed. Can be useful, but I generally don't see the need to be that much faster than the rest of the group. On the other hand, the spino had a swim speed. Not always useful, but it does come up.
- Spinosaurus has way more Strength, and more natural attacks to make up for it. wolf gets a trip that while useful, I don't think compares well against two more attacks. Wolf can trip something, spino can kill it (barring weird DR). At level one, a wolf does a 1d8+1 damage, with a pretty crap to-hit. A spinosaurus does 1d8+4, and 1d6+4 twice. And the wolf's CMB is pretty crap, so that trip won't come up as often as you'd want.
- Wolf has 1 more AC, low-light and scent. That's certainly in its favour, but not very relevant if min-maxers want an animal companion that tears things to shreds.

I'd say the wolf has some benefits, but they still don't weigh up against a damage output comparable to an equal-level PC Barbarian.

[Ascalaphus]

Strength 18 and three primary attacks at level 1 is competitive with full martial PCs - and that'd be just your AC class feature.

Also, it's AC is actually better than the wolf.

[Quentin Coldwater]

Erp, mixed up the two midway through.

[Tharizdhun]

Anyone know if the iguanodon is approved. Having trouble reading the additional resources doc for some reason.

[Quentin Coldwater]

Nope, it isn't.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/DruidCompanions.aspx
The Glyph of the Open Road symbolises things that are legal. There's no icon of it next to the Iguanodon.

[BigNorseWolf]

Tharizdhun wrote:

Anyone know if the iguanodon is approved. Having trouble reading the additional resources doc for some reason.

While i normally love archives of nethys, the critters are undergoing some reviews that may make it a little behind the times

[John Compton]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Tharizdhun wrote:

Anyone know if the iguanodon is approved. Having trouble reading the additional resources doc for some reason.

While i normally love archives of nethys, the critters are undergoing some reviews that may make it a little behind the times

And I believe iguanadon is one that wasn't in the Additional Resources that I intend to add back to the list.

[Tharizdhun]

John Compton wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Tharizdhun wrote:

Anyone know if the iguanodon is approved. Having trouble reading the additional resources doc for some reason.

While i normally love archives of nethys, the critters are undergoing some reviews that may make it a little behind the times

And I believe iguanadon is one that wasn't in the Additional Resources that I intend to add back to the list.

John,

Thanks for responding.

[Jason Wu]

John, thanks for taking the time to address this.

John Compton wrote:

In the meantime, I trust it will soon be easier to play a goliath druid.

I for one would love it if Dire animals added to the Megafauna classification. "Megafauna" didn't get coined in Pathfinder til later books - I know a couple of Paizo folks including James Jacobs have indicated that megafauna is what dire animals would have been classified under, if that term had been around at the time.

I know it pretty much would just affect the dire rat as far as animal companions, but it would also expand the Goliath Druid wildshape options. I just reached 4th level with mine and realized there are only two wildshape forms available, since most of the other dino and megafauna are too large at that class level.

-j

[Renarin Kholin]

so has the additional resources been updated yet? just curious if i should give up hope for my megaloceros...

[John Compton]

Renarin Kholin wrote:

so has the additional resources been updated yet? just curious if i should give up hope for my megaloceros...

The update is in the queue now, so I imagine it will show up fairly soon. I prefer not to establish uncertain expectations by naming an exact date, as the update is one of the website team's many projects. I can, however, provide a list of the new additions.

Creatures Added:

Bestiary 2: arsinotherium, glyptodon, megaloceros, megatherium, tylosaurus

Bestiary 3: baluchitherium, basilosaurus, iguanodon, megalania

Bestiary 4: giraffe

[Hmm]

I want to see that giraffe in society play! I love it when people take the less-optimized animal buddies!

[BigNorseWolf]

Hmm wrote:

I want to see that giraffe in society play! I love it when people take the less-optimized animal buddies!

Now how to convince the DM the saddle/sniper tower goes on the head...

[Hmm]

That's what those potions of reduce person and ant haul are for.

[Flutter]

John Compton wrote:

Renarin Kholin wrote:

so has the additional resources been updated yet? just curious if i should give up hope for my megaloceros...

The update is in the queue now, so I imagine it will show up fairly soon. I prefer not to establish uncertain expectations by naming an exact date, as the update is one of the website team's many projects. I can, however, provide a list of the new additions.

** spoiler omitted **

Awwww thank you so much! *cuddles the new friends*

[Zahra Senay]

Zahra welcomes Pumpkin's new playmates!

[John Compton]

Hmm wrote:

I want to see that giraffe in society play! I love it when people take the less-optimized animal buddies!

Yeah, there are many character options that I remember why they were not added to the Additional Resources. Then there's the giraffe. I have no recollection why that was never allowed.

[Hmm]

Because it was head and shoulders above the other options!

Hmm

[John Compton]

Hmm wrote:

Because it was head and shoulders above the other options!

Hmm

*Weeps about the pun and then removes giraffes from the list*

I joke. I think...
The puns...ow...

*Awards Hmm 10 gp for her(?) Perform (comedy) check*

[Finlanderboy]

I have Mad dog barbarian halfling who is a luchadore tag team wrestler. His first partner was El Gaupo a megalania, well El Gaupo died, and then the creature was banned. So I got a crocodile named La Hermosa to get revenge.

Now you are saying El gaupo did not really die?

[John Compton]

Finlanderboy wrote:

I have Mad dog barbarian halfling who is a luchadore tag team wrestler. His first partner was El Gaupo a megalania, well El Gaupo died, and then the creature was banned. So I got a crocodile named La Hermosa to get revenge.

Now you are saying El gaupo did not really die?

The way I'm reading what you wrote, El Guapo died before megalania was removed. The Additional Resources does not undo legitimate deaths during a scenario. If, however, you set El Guapo "out to pasture" for a while due to an Additional Resources update, I'm sure you could call him back and continue your madcap antics.

[Finlanderboy]

John Compton wrote:

Finlanderboy wrote:

I have Mad dog barbarian halfling who is a luchadore tag team wrestler. His first partner was El Gaupo a megalania, well El Gaupo died, and then the creature was banned. So I got a crocodile named La Hermosa to get revenge.

Now you are saying El gaupo did not really die?

The way I'm reading what you wrote, El Guapo died before megalania was removed. The Additional Resources does not undo legitimate deaths during a scenario. If, however, you set El Guapo "out to pasture" for a while due to an Additional Resources update, I'm sure you could call him back and continue your madcap antics.

I am sorry i put that poorly, Yeah he died, and it was awhile before I play him again and contemplated how to resurrect him if i should and what not. Before I made the decision he was banned. So I moved on and made his story that he died to enemies of the society and got his wife for revenge. But now, did El Gaupo really die?

[John Compton]

Finlanderboy wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Finlanderboy wrote:

I have Mad dog barbarian halfling who is a luchadore tag team wrestler. His first partner was El Gaupo a megalania, well El Gaupo died, and then the creature was banned. So I got a crocodile named La Hermosa to get revenge.

Now you are saying El gaupo did not really die?

The way I'm reading what you wrote, El Guapo died before megalania was removed. The Additional Resources does not undo legitimate deaths during a scenario. If, however, you set El Guapo "out to pasture" for a while due to an Additional Resources update, I'm sure you could call him back and continue your madcap antics.

I am sorry i put that poorly, Yeah he died, and it was awhile before I play him again and contemplated how to resurrect him if i should and what not. Before I made the decision he was banned. So I moved on and made his story that he died to enemies of the society and got his wife for revenge. But now, did El Gaupo really die?

Yes, El Guapo died; his death occurred before the megalania was removed as a legal option. I understand the decision not to bring him back to life was shaped by the megalania's removal after the Additional Resources change. I don't mind if you want to raise him with magic months later in light of the upcoming update. I just want to be clear that there isn't a rules technicality that would overturn his heroic demise.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Finlanderboy wrote:

I am sorry i put that poorly, Yeah he died, and it was awhile before I play him again and contemplated how to resurrect him if i should and what not. Before I made the decision he was banned. So I moved on and made his story that he died to enemies of the society and got his wife for revenge. But now, did El Gaupo really die?

Maybe he's at home watching the kids while La Hermosa is out 'working', since he was an adventurer until he took an arrow to the leg-joint?

[Finlanderboy]

John Compton wrote:

Finlanderboy wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Finlanderboy wrote:

I have Mad dog barbarian halfling who is a luchadore tag team wrestler. His first partner was El Gaupo a megalania, well El Gaupo died, and then the creature was banned. So I got a crocodile named La Hermosa to get revenge.

Now you are saying El gaupo did not really die?

The way I'm reading what you wrote, El Guapo died before megalania was removed. The Additional Resources does not undo legitimate deaths during a scenario. If, however, you set El Guapo "out to pasture" for a while due to an Additional Resources update, I'm sure you could call him back and continue your madcap antics.

I am sorry i put that poorly, Yeah he died, and it was awhile before I play him again and contemplated how to resurrect him if i should and what not. Before I made the decision he was banned. So I moved on and made his story that he died to enemies of the society and got his wife for revenge. But now, did El Gaupo really die?

Yes, El Guapo died; his death occurred before the megalania was removed as a legal option. I understand the decision not to bring him back to life was shaped by the megalania's removal after the Additional Resources change. I don't mind if you want to raise him with magic months later in light of the upcoming update. I just want to be clear that there isn't a rules technicality that would overturn his heroic demise.

I am being silly. That last line was for dramatic suspense. I guess I shoulda added a duh duh duhhhhhhh.....