l0thar |
I've been GMing for a few years on and off in our group. We can't all get together very often, but we've been slowly working our way through Rise of the Runelords and are now in the Hook Mountain Massacre. One of my players recently had his monk get killed vs the Grauls (our only player death so far), and replaced him with a whip-wielding trip/disarm-focused fighter. Here are his stats at level 8:
Male Human Fighter 8
STR:24 (22 base, +2 with a Pale Blue Ioun Stone)
DEX:16 (14 base, +2 with a Belt of Incredible Dex)
CON:8
INT:13
WIS:7
CHA:7
BAB:8/3
FEATS:
Weapon Focus: Whip
Combat Reflexes
Whip Mastery
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Greater Trip
Improved Disarm
Greater Disarm
Fall's Fury
Gear:
+2 Whip
Chainmail
+1 Heavy Steel Shield
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Locked Gauntlet
This is what he generally does: As a full-round action, trips with his first attack, then takes a disarm maneuver for his attack of opportunity. Then he trips a second enemy and takes a disarm maneuver for the attack of opportunity. He then keeps them tripped through opportunity attacks.
If my math is correct, his CMB for tripping (on his first attack) would be:
+8(BAB) +7(Str) +2(whip) +1(proficiency) +1(focus) +4(feats) +2(Fall's) = 25
Attacks of opportunity are taken at full BAB, so his disarm would be:
+8(BAB) +7(Str) +2(whip) +1(proficiency) +1(focus) +4(feats) = 23
His second trip would be at CMB 20, but his second disarm still at 23.
It's a hilarious build, but I'm running into the issue that it seems to be imbalancing combat considerably. The Ogres they are fighting now have CMD 18. He's only failing to trip/disarm them on a natural 1. The Ogre Fighters have CMD 26. He is only failing to trip them on a natural 1 and has an 85% chance to disarm them. Jaagrath has CMD 29. The fighter has a 80% to trip him and 70% chance to disarm him.
Combat is currently extremely one-sided thanks to this character. Basically, everything they fight winds up perma-proned and disarmed (at least until they get to Lucrecia). I don't mind if my group steamrolls the normal Ogres, but I want them to at least be a little challenged by combat. I've given the Ogre Fighters Improved Unarmed, so they can at least try to do some damage, but I feel like I need to do more. What else can I consider doing to make things more challenging going forward? Should I just add more ranged combatants, or more creatures that are resistant to trip? Since he's completely dumped Wis, should I throw in more casters who can take advantage of his low Will save? I don't want encounters to feel like they're designed just to counter this build. What would you all do in a similar situation?
Sammy T |
"He then keeps them tripped through opportunity attacks."
Just to double check--he's not trip-locking them on the AOOs from standing up is he? Because he couldn't trip them again on that AOO as they are considered still prone.
CON:8
WIS:7
Oh boy. Well, he'll be making a third character eventually...
EvilMinion |
You can't 'perma-prone' people with trip.
I see no actual whip proficiency (its an exotic weapon so he's not proficient just for being a fighter, or a human).
Also, he does not threaten with the whip without Improved Whip Mastery... so how is he getting any AoOs at all?
As for what to do, sunder the damn whip, its got no hit points or hardness to speak of.
edit: also, you could use enlarge person on the giants (they are humanoids)... once they gain a size category, he would no longer be able to trip them at all without increasing in size himself... though he could still disarm them.
Dave Justus |
The first question is, are your players having fun? If they are, then you don't need to do anything.
One thing to understand is that this player has built a controller, not a striker. Is he really reducing the enemies ability to attack the party more than an 8th level wizard would? Possibly, against some enemies, but fairly useless against others.
As the game goes on, trip generally becomes less useful without a DM doing anything special. Flying becomes much more common. Weapon using foes become less and less the main threat. CMB scales up pretty fast beyond 10 (although a focused build can still defeat that) Right now is probably the sweet spot and letting him enjoy that is ok.
If your other players really aren't having fun, I wouldn't try to negate the build directly, just add to encounters to increase the difficulty. Adding more creatures is one easy way, then he can be screwing with several, but some are going to get through keeping the other party busy. A few ranged attackers mixed in with melee attackers could be an option too.
I wouldn't add caster foes to just target him, but any casters that would normally be present and who could dominate him likely would choose him as a target, not because they know he has low WIS, but just because the big fighter type is usually the best target for such spells anyway.
Fruian Thistlefoot |
The first question is, are your players having fun? If they are, then you don't need to do anything.
One thing to understand is that this player has built a controller, not a striker. Is he really reducing the enemies ability to attack the party more than an 8th level wizard would? Possibly, against some enemies, but fairly useless against others.
As the game goes on, trip generally becomes less useful without a DM doing anything special. Flying becomes much more common. Weapon using foes become less and less the main threat. CMB scales up pretty fast beyond 10 (although a focused build can still defeat that) Right now is probably the sweet spot and letting him enjoy that is ok.
If your other players really aren't having fun, I wouldn't try to negate the build directly, just add to encounters to increase the difficulty. Adding more creatures is one easy way, then he can be screwing with several, but some are going to get through keeping the other party busy. A few ranged attackers mixed in with melee attackers could be an option too.
I wouldn't add caster foes to just target him, but any casters that would normally be present and who could dominate him likely would choose him as a target, not because they know he has low WIS, but just because the big fighter type is usually the best target for such spells anyway.
All of that.
Don't worry book 4 and 5 will have enemies trip and disarm are just crap for.
l0thar |
This is great stuff. I didn't realize whips were exotic. I'll definitely make him re-tool his feats a little. He was using his opportunity attacks to re-prone enemies that were standing up, so it's good to know that they are still considered prone. That will make things considerably better, as that -4 penalty to attacks was brutal. It's good to know that things will be more resistant to trip later. His last character was a grapple-master monk who pinned every Big Bad caster that was thrown at the group within two rounds of getting close to them. It made a lot of big fights very anticlimactic. I believe the group is having fun, though, so I'm definitely willing to let him keep going with it. I'll make encounters more diverse so others get a chance to shine as well. Thanks!
Slacker2010 |
You can't 'perma-prone' people with trip.
I see no actual whip proficiency (its an exotic weapon so he's not proficient just for being a fighter, or a human).
Also, he does not threaten with the whip without Improved Whip Mastery... so how is he getting any AoOs at all?As for what to do, sunder the damn whip, its got no hit points or hardness to speak of.
edit: also, you could use enlarge person on the giants (they are humanoids)... once they gain a size category, he would no longer be able to trip them at all without increasing in size himself... though he could still disarm them.
All of this is awesome information.
Let's add to the mix his CON of 8!
He has a WIS of 7!?!
So the way I see this playing out: He will continue to dominate and trivialize everything for a bit more. THEN the game will catch up with him and he will be dead. He probably doesn't care because you will let him make a new character. At which point he will make a new character to trivialize encounters at that level.
I would suggest sitting down with him and explaining to him that this one trick pony will die eventually in this AP (8 con and 7 wis will get that done). Allow him a remake now, and from this point on, death will mean new characters are APL-3 levels to start. That should be incentive to make a real character that has a chance to survive the AP.
Gilfalas |
If my math is correct, his CMB for tripping (on his first attack) would be:
+8(BAB) +7(Str) +2(whip) +1(proficiency) +1(focus) +4(feats) +2(Fall's) = 25
Attacks of opportunity are taken at full BAB, so his disarm would be:
+8(BAB) +7(Str) +2(whip) +1(proficiency) +1(focus) +4(feats) = 23
There is no +1 bonus for 'proficiency' that I am aware of and even if there was, as has been pointed out, he is not even proficient with the whip since he has not taken the exotic weapon proficiency for it. Also the bonus on Trip attempts from Fall's Fury should be +3 not +2 since his dex is 16.
In the end his Trip bonus is the same just for different reasons. His disarm bonus would be 1 higher though.
As with Trip, there is no 'proficiency' bonus but there is a +2 on disarm attempts with a whip since it has the disarm ability in it's weapon line.
And as has been pointed out and linked above you cannot trip a prone target trying to stand since they are prone. You can only trip a target who is already standing.
Gulthor |
You appear to be missing a feat:
1st - 1 human, 1 fighter, 1st level
Then one additional feat each level for a total of 10 feats. I'd guess the missing feat is Whip Proficiency.
But as others have already pointed out, he can't perma-trip, and he currently doesn't threaten with the whip. He needs Improved Whip Mastery to do that.
l0thar |
The +1(proficiency) I listed is really the Fighter's Weapon Training(Ex):Flails. Good catch on the incorrect Dex from Fall's! So the real math should be:
TRIP
+8(BAB) +7(STR) +2(enhancement) +1(training) +1(focus) +4(feats) +3(Fall's) = 26
DISARM
+8(BAB) +7(STR) +2(enhancement) +1(training) +1(focus) +4(feats) +2(feature) = 25
Also, it turns out that he did take Improved Whip Mastery, he just labeled it incorrectly on his character sheet (there was a feat I couldn't identify that had 'threaten' listed next to it).
Gulthor |
The +1(proficiency) I listed is really the Fighter's Weapon Training(Ex):Flails. Good catch on the incorrect Dex from Fall's! So the real math should be:
TRIP
+8(BAB) +7(STR) +2(enhancement) +1(training) +1(focus) +4(feats) +3(Fall's) = 26DISARM
+8(BAB) +7(STR) +2(enhancement) +1(training) +1(focus) +4(feats) +2(feature) = 25Also, it turns out that he did take Improved Whip Mastery, he just labeled it incorrectly on his character sheet (there was a feat I couldn't identify that had 'threaten' listed next to it).
In that case, he's missing whip proficiency.
l0thar |
Hmm, It could just be me, but he seems to be missing the FEAT: Exotic Weapon (Whip)
In that case, he's missing whip proficiency.
He's definitely going to have to drop one of his current feats for Whip Proficiency. He thought the Weapon Training gave it to him for free. I've clarified that to him. I still haven't broken the news about perma-tripping, though.
Honestly, I don't know what his plan was for this character besides the novelty of trip/disarming everyone. In just this chapter of the AP, Dorella is going to keep him confused/asleep/laughing for the entire fight, and all Lucrecia has to do is touch him once and the Wisdom drain will render him unconscious. I want him to have fun, but I don't know if he's going to live through this chapter. There is very likely a coup de grace in his immediate future.
Lucy_Valentine |
He could have proficiency through Fighter by taking the right archetype.
These guys get it. I mean, they don't get heavy armour, so it's not all gravy, but it could be legit.
Mind you, it's not like whip is the most efficient way to do this. I mean, he could just get enlarged and then do this with a polearm. He has friends with enlarge person, right? He'd have a greater ability to do straightforward damage then, too. Using the whip is taking the difficult path.
Honestly, I don't know what his plan was for this character besides the novelty of trip/disarming everyone. In just this chapter of the AP, Dorella is going to keep him confused/asleep/laughing for the entire fight, and all Lucrecia has to do is touch him once and the Wisdom drain will render him unconscious. I want him to have fun, but I don't know if he's going to live through this chapter. There is very likely a coup de grace in his immediate future.
Well then, the problem will solve itself, won't it?
I'd say, if the rest of the group are happy with it, just let it go and see how long it takes him to get dead. He clearly wanted to try out what is presumably for him an unusual build. So... why stop that?
rabindranath72 |
I've been GMing for a few years on and off in our group. [snip]
Combat is currently extremely one-sided thanks to this character. Basically, everything they fight winds up perma-proned and disarmed (at least until...
Hilarious indeed! I can see how this can create problems.
I am not familiar with Pathfinder, nor with D&D 3.5, but just for fun I checked my D&D 3.0 PHB, and it seems you couldn't build such a character at all. Sometimes less is definitely more :)SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |