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I think this maybe a taboo topic, but I have not been finding too many discussions on this around the web and love to hear what people think. In my local area, the amount of PFS players seems to be shrinking a little. Nothing bad, I think we are just not getting any new players like before. This could be due to the amount of D&D 5 Adventurer's League that been popping up and encouraged by local store owners. Just wondering if this is a local thing here? And if anyone is doing something creative to bring in new players to their game? I am a huge fan of PFS, how it works, the community, and how responsive the leadership are. (Both volunteers and Paizo staff). Sorry, if this is inappropriate. - A big fan.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Nope, not local. I've had a very hard time getting new role players for PFS games, as most gravitate to D&D Encounters due to ease of entry. This is also backed up by national sales numbers, where Paizo long-since relinquished the #1 selling RPG spot to D&D 5E, and is actually in danger of being taken over at 2nd place by the Star Wars RPG. Moreover, this was something they were warned about almost three years ago. Unfortunately, I don't feel they paid any heed, despite the statements made to the contrary in that thread.
Happily, they seem to finally be paying attention. First level content is being made available again in the module line, the production quality of Season 7 adventures is stellar (with plenty of content there, as well), and they are rolling out programs like the Humble Bundle and in-store PFS support to bolster new player acquisition.
If they continue initiatives like that, they will stabilize. But I doubt they will ever get back to the top of the mountain that they used to be king of.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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We're not big, but there is a clear divide between the two groups: Adventure League is mostly for those strapped for time, but do want to play: those with curfews. Either the young who have homework/school, or the older, who have kids that need to be put to bed and such.
Those with more time play PFS. Those without curfews. Student, people without kids, or those with kids old enough that they can leave the house for a couple of hours.
At one point we had three regular D&D tables, but one of those already shifted to Star Wars, as some just did not like the way the adventure league was set up.
I guess that as time progresses, we might see some of the younger players make the jump to PFS, once they have more time, and are ready for longer adventures.
I think the short format is great to learn, and great for us with little time. But for me its just too short for a good story.
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There also doesn't seem to be same 'mentality' between players in AL versus PFS play?
Granted, my experience was two 'introductory' scenario-bits, but it wasn't as 'comfortable' as 'sitting down to play almost any PFS scenario I've ever played'?
It could be local convention variation, but I don't ever remember sitting down at a PFS table and had someone almost immediately question my choice of race, my attribute layout, or why I wasn't taking 'the ideal power path'.
Have discussions come up later in play if my build has been effective or ineffective after some combats/encounters in PFS? Sure. But not immediate 'badwrongfundoitthisway'?
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As a player and GM at Drogon's store, I see the painful results of something (and I've been told it's AL in large part) taking away PFS players. Tables have been shrinking and harder to fill where a year ago or so every table was filled and often with more players in the wings. Our last game night saw yet another table cancelled and it happened to be one of the very latest PFS scenarios!
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My area has seen a definite decline in player base, but after looking around it doesn't appear that most of them have moved to AL, since that seems to have barely caught on around here. Instead, it seems like they're just going home. They're finding other people they like playing with in PFS, and then starting home campaigns. So they're still playing pathfinder, it's just not as visible.
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This is a topic that comes up every so often in this forum (at least once a year). So long as it doesn't turn into "Edition Wars" it's not a taboo talk.
After seeing the tide ebb and flow in both directions I came to realize that it's only a local problem if you make it one, and it's only successful locally if you foster it.
We'll email, Facebook and text to get the word out about games, and everything's posted on Warhorn. But if you really want to maintain new traffic you have to provide a friendly and warm environment. Exceed the expectations of new players. Spend time going over their characters, the rules of Pathfinder, and the nuances of organized play. Provide handouts, bring snacks, offer carpools, take an interest in them and ask what's interesting to them.
There are probably very few originals left doing Society in my area, but they've been replaced with an equally decent crop of new bloods. But if we weren't a welcoming environment, we probably would have folded long ago.
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I'd scheduled an all day module for a Saturday and had 6 players signed up. That Thursday before, while enjoying our regular game night, I found out 2 players had to cancel. Oh well. I figured I'd put out the word for replacements later that evening.
Then, during our halfway break, while perusing the new arrivals section, I struck up a conversation with a guy looking at the same book. He said he'd really like to purchase more material, but that he didn't have a gaming group to use it with.
I asked him if he'd like to come to our module Saturday. I told him it was free, and there'd be food, and there'd be no obligation. He said he didn't have a car. I offered to pick him up. He asked if he could bring a friend, I said "sure!". He said he didn't have a character, and asked whether there was room for a Paladin anyways. I said we already had a Paladin statted up (Seelah) if he didn't mind using her to try things out. Same offer for his buddy (who used Lini).
Now we have two dedicated players with a 9th level Paladin and Druid that they're looking forward to taking through Eyes. One is stepping up to GM at our Con this weekend. They've collectively spent hundreds of dollars on Pathfinder. And all because I said "hi".
That story is one of many local legends now that we retell to potential new members, which is a sort of positive energy feedback of its own.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I don't think we've ever had a bigger group that what we've got now. :) Apparently AL did horribly the first year and no one participates in my local area anymore, or if they do, it hasn't hurt our attendance at all. I know I had several players that would play both Encounters and PFS since we ran on different days, but I don't think I lost any to D&D.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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AL does okay here. A couple of the former AL organizers are 5-star PFS GMs. We have a good relationship with AL in the area. When we are in the same store, we game on different days - that way, players don't have to choose. Someone who wants to play both games is able to do so.
I don't struggle for players - we have a ton of players, and we pick up new ones here and there (and we always have opportunities to do that.) I struggle to get GMs.
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Our local group has grown in one venue and grown in another, though I wouldn't attribute any of it to the growth of the AL in the area. And even if it had, both of these are just games. You're likely best off by being friendly and cooperative with the members and organizers of the local AL as they are all potential PFS players as well, if they aren't already.
Before Kristen and I stepped down, the local AL organizer was a good friend of ours. He had played PFS for awhile but wasn't able to make it to many meets as he got a new job, but AL was in a different timeframe that his work schedule allowed. We agreed to make an effort to avoid overlapping game days and times so as to try to draw potential players into both groups and to allow anyone who wanted to play both easy access to both games, without being forced to choose between them. We also worked with new possible venues in the area together, so we could try to grow both groups at each place if possible.
Coincidentally, he now works for Mike Brock. :p
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The store where I organize opened it's doors 1.5 years ago. At one time we could pull in 2 solid PFS tables a week. Now we are down to scratching 3 or 4 players to get one table. Life gets in the way and regulars drop out. The issue is we rarely pick up new players to fill in. Almost all new players gravitate toward 5e. 5e at this store now have 4 tables a week.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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Over here in my area, I don't know if people even know AL exists. The reason? No one runs it. Sure, we don't run PFS at the game stores either - one doesn't have room, the other isn't open late enough for games to be feasible on the week and on the weekend they're full of miniatures and CCGs. But our PFS scene recently started booming, and AL simply isn't going to do the same due to its restrictions unless someone outside our PFS circle decides to start it from scratch.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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A follow up to my post is one reason new players are gravitating toward 5e at my store besides name recognition is the store owners steer people that way. The owners are turned off by PFS because they believe Society play has too many rules.
That's a weird attitude. As a store owner, myself, I find DDAL to be a pain in the ass. And with WotC dropping Encounters and Expeditions in favor of the new "DMs Guild" model, it's even more of a pain in the ass. In all honesty, I'm hoping it turns some of the players off and sends them back to PFS, which has always been easy to get along with.
I am wondering how AL is doing as well as it is considering Wizards and their organized play department staffing has been cut down to nearly nothing. DM's Guild at least partly exists because Wizards wouldn't be able to produce enough product on their own, with the constant budget cuts and layoffs.
-j
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I am wondering how AL is doing as well as it is considering Wizards and their organized play department staffing has been cut down to nearly nothing. DM's Guild at least partly exists because Wizards wouldn't be able to produce enough product on their own, with the constant budget cuts and layoffs.
-j
It is the power of the brand name at work.
Also, the Encounters model was absolutely brilliant. 2 hours, no sign up or commitment, same night every week in every store across the country? Yeah, that drove legions of people into the game. WotC ditching that model hasn't even put a crimp in the plan, either: DMs who were running Encounters are simply picking up the next book and running that at the same time slots with the same concept, WotC's rules be damned.
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A follow up to my post is one reason new players are gravitating toward 5e at my store besides name recognition is the store owners steer people that way. The owners are turned off by PFS because they believe Society play has too many rules.That's a weird attitude. As a store owner, myself, I find DDAL to be a pain in the ass. And with WotC dropping Encounters and Expeditions in favor of the new "DMs Guild" model, it's even more of a pain in the ass. In all honesty, I'm hoping it turns some of the players off and sends them back to PFS, which has always been easy to get along with.
I think in a large part it depends on how involved the store owners are in the organizational side of the process. I've been to Pathfinder game days in about half a dozen states now and quite often the extent of the store's involvement is "yeah, sure, you can play here."
Adventurer's League, on the other hand, required the store to be a point of contact. So a lot more work for the owners but at the same time it kept the brand in the store owner's mind.
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I am so glad to hear PFS is alive and striving in many places. I hope our area would improve in the future.
As PFS seems much more sophisticated, does it seems like a reasonable assumption that AL players will eventually want to go toward PFS? How do we convert them?
I love the idea that someone should be assign to new players in a region, almost like a sponsor/mentor to help bring them back. It can even be a volunteer position.
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Update:
Tonight was a rather large crowd for 5E, our meager table of one had 11 players total. It's rather a lot, and another table may be formed, however it wouldn't be on the same night. Someone has to put on the GM hat and such appears to be in short supply. A lot of them are returning players from older editions as it appears. One to two more players are also joining our PFS group.
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Their in lies the problem for AL they are trying to stay away from the way LIVING GREYHAWK was done. LOTS of issues for RPGA. They do not want that stigma brought over. They have seen the success of other campaigns including PFS and are trying to make it easy to field players. Which should be the goal of any CAMPAIGN but it seems organizing is their main problem and keeping things consistent.
Locally Star Wars is all the rage and many of our PFS members play. Some game nights we have a big turnout, others we do not. Their is no wrong way to have fun. You are going to have dedicated players and GMs to any genre OR Brand, but keeping things fun will help attract new players and keep them.
When we have an opening event we tend to have a lot of players too. We Be Goblins is always a packed event come Free RPG Day. Its up to the organizer to compete. You get what you put in. (Granted sometimes things are not in your control, but 90% its what you put in and a little luck)
AS to how I see things here: By far PFS has had the best storylines and original ones at that. and going on the original story tangent: its also why Star Wars has seen such a huge bump in players. New Stories to share and play in.
Also why the sudden surge in peoples interest in AL right now is because of the Demon Lords escaping. The Tiamit story was beaten to death in 3.5. Not that it was not fun, but they re-hatched it from War of the Dragon Queen line(Minis anyone) Many players here and in SW Florida remember (and im sure those else where)and the current one for those who have played and read it before just was not appealing story wise. So not surprising not much show in numbers for AL, but with this new storyline I can see them gaining actual ground, while the new storyline lasts.
So I see PFS enduring along with AL, and Star Wars for the next few years just on good written content. Star Wars will see peaks as the new movies come out and PFS and AL will do good as long as those higher up still maintain their love of the content. I have faith in John Compton and his new henchmen to turn out a great story. I hope they continue to do so for the next ten years.
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I play both O.o
PFS in my area seems to 'lose' more players to Shadowrun, Star Wars, and Dicemasters than anything else.
One store that used to be the local hotspot for OP for D&D and PFS has hardly any gaming of those two. Another area has grown greatly over the past two years.
As a player and DM of both, I see either:
1) People who play D&D were not people who played PFS, or
2) People who play D&D also play PFS
Ok, there's also 1 guy who doesn't do PFS anymore due to assumed need for rules mastery. But he doesn't count. Hopefully, as my DM most of the time, he's not reading this. Ahem.
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I switched stores where I play when I moved to a new home last year, so I can't really comment on long term trends. But I'm in the same area, and PFS is still very active here.
The store where I used to play had 3-5 tables every Monday evening. Not sure if they still do, since it would be over an hour drive for me to go there on Mondays, so I don't play there any more.
On the other hand, there's a store about 10 minutes from where I now live that has 2-3 tables pretty much every Sunday. We're holding steady, with some new players and some of the old regulars who I've known for years from the other stores in the area. We've even managed to run two of the big specials that require 5 tables in the last 6 months.
I had heard they were doing 5e at the same store that I go to now, but it's on a night I'm not there. Apparently, it's overcrowded, with usually 8+ players per table, so it's doing well, but it just isn't cutting into our Pathfinder at all.
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The store where I used to play had 3-5 tables every Monday evening. Not sure if they still do, since it would be over an hour drive for me to go there on Mondays, so I don't play there any more.
Hey, Fromper, the Dojo has 3 tables of PFS on average from what I can tell (I don't play as regularly as I used to as I have GM'd/played myself out of most normal PFS scenarios and I honestly have no interest in Core). There are 5ish tables of D&D...which have a much better gender ratio and size.
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My area (Edmonton, Alberta, Canada) got 3-4 stores doing PFS at different days. I think there's an Adventurer's League at one of those locations on Wednesdays, though I'm not too sure as I don't go to that store on Wednesdays and they don't have much of an online presence like the PFS community does.
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Another factor in 'lack' of local participation may be transportation and money--it is for me and it may be for others.
I do not drive.
To get to most of the LGS, I would need to take a two-hour train ride with one connecting stop if the schedules lined up, and then a two-hour ride to return.
Even if one were conservative it will take at between 20-30$ to get to and from LGS.
By comparison, on-line I could theoretically play 14 VTT games a week if I timed them out right, at the low cost of the Internet bill (which I'm paying for anyways).
Alternatively, a few PbP a month is still less pricey in terms of time, money, and hassle compared to trying to get to a LGS.
That being said, I haven't seen a lot of on-line support for AL, but I *have* for both VTT and PbP?
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My area (Edmonton, Alberta, Canada) got 3-4 stores doing PFS at different days. I think there's an Adventurer's League at one of those locations on Wednesdays, though I'm not too sure as I don't go to that store on Wednesdays and they don't have much of an online presence like the PFS community does.
You guys have an awesome VC in Edmonton.
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My area (Edmonton, Alberta, Canada) got 3-4 stores doing PFS at different days. I think there's an Adventurer's League at one of those locations on Wednesdays, though I'm not too sure as I don't go to that store on Wednesdays and they don't have much of an online presence like the PFS community does.You guys have an awesome VC in Edmonton.
Agreed. He thinks highly of Winnipeg too!