So I had this idea after realizing that there are a few different classes that can do this and each pops in low enough that I could do all of them on one character for PFS.
First there's the Contstable (cavalier archetype). At level 3 he can spend one minute planning to use his tactician ability within the next hour once a specific condition is met (so basically a readied action to share a teamwork feat sometime within the next hour).
Next is the Holy Tactician (Paladin archetype). Basically they swap out Aura of Courage for a Teamwork Feat Aura at level 3.
Finally is one of the bardic masterpieces--Battle Song of the People's Revolt. When you perform this your allies get a teamwork feat.
So the cool thing about this is that each of those three abilities come with their own free feat. So that means my character can focus on his own thing while still sharing his feats.
So here's my plan.
Human 1-3 cavalier, 4-6 paladin, 7-10 skald, ?? (11 will be another level in one of those classes, probably paladin to pick up first level spells).
Teamwork feats
Cavalier - Paired Opportunists (if something provokes for you it provokes for you adjacent alleis)
Paladin - Broken Wing Gambit (when you hit an enemy you can leave an opening to make your enemy provoke for your allies (and then from Paired Opportunists you as well)
Battle Song - Seize the Moment
Feats
Human 1) Combat Reflexes
1) Vicious Stomp (constable gets Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1)
3) Dirty Fighting
5) Improved Trip
7) Filler (retrain for a bardic masterpiece to get Seize the Moment when eligible)
9) Improved Critical
11) Greater Trip
So at level 3 I'll be sharing Paired Opportunists every fight (assuming 1 minute of downtime between encounters). At level 6 I'll be sharing Broken Wing Gambit with everyone so if everyone is near the same enemy it's basically a beat down. Both of these without any actions. Finally, with a standard action I'll be able to share Seize the Moment (and I'll keep some of those shelyn tuning forks on hand (literally) in case of emergency and I need to start it as a move action instead).
So this is different from other teamwork feat builds in that it actually requires teamwork. No solo tactics. No hunter tactics. No fighter weapon mastery (whatever it's called from weaponmasters toolbox that's basically solo tactics). No ratfolk feat that is basically solo tactics. It also requires other people in melee (or pets/eidolons/summons/whatever).
Weapon of choice would either be a scimitar or a falchion (18-20 crit range for improved crit), depending on whether I want a shield or not. I'd also pick up a wand of bless weapon since I'll have paladin levels so it'll be on my spell list.
Ideally I'd like to be a Nagaji as they get +2 str/+2 cha (and -2 int) but the human bonus feat lets me start being interesting in combat much sooner--but it would still work because I could lose a 2nd level spell known to pick up the Battle Song masterpiece at lvl 10.
For my ability scores I'm looking at this
Str 16 (14 +2 human, 4th and 8th level here)
dex 14
con 14
int 10 (I don't want to dump int because I'm imagining more of a support character)
wis 10
cha 14
Thoughts?
I think its neat and would work but the big problem I've always had when making plans like this, and especially in PFS where your table may change regularly is the cooperation of other players and whether or not party comp is going to actually have more than you in melee.
Ryan Freire wrote: I think its neat and would work but the big problem I've always had when making plans like this, and especially in PFS where your table may change regularly is the cooperation of other players and whether or not party comp is going to actually have more than you in melee. The cooperation of others shouldn't really affect this too much. I can make sure to be near another melee. So unless they're actively trying to move away from me I don't see that being an issue. The other point is valid. If there simply aren't enough other melee characters I'll just have to play something else (I've got a couple characters in each tier at this point).
From what I see squad commander from constable cavalier makes it not count as one of your uses, but doesn't change the activation required (standard action.)
Battlefield presence from holy tactician is also a standard action.
And of course without throwing away fairly expensive consumables, the masterpiece is another standard action.
Unless I'm missing something about the activations required, I don't see all this as being worth it unless you have a party really tuned to take advantage of it, which won't really be the case in PFS.
If you are going for a Tripping Build and a Critical Build, a natural Feat to take is Tripping Strike: Free Trip on a Crit.
Another Teamwork Feat Class is the Divine Strategist Warpriest Archetype, and if you want to go with a Crit build, you should really consider levels in Warpriest. With Sacred Weapon Damage replacing normal Weapon Damage, you can have twin Kukris doing 1d6 for starters, same as rapiers and scimitars and such, and still with the 18-20 Threat Range, until you reach level 8 or 9 when it goes up to 15-20 with a +4 to confirm when you also take Crit Focus, and your Sacred Weapon Damage is now 1d8.
There are 2 more Teamwork Feat Class Options I can think of to consider. The Eldritch Guardian Fighter Archetype and the Beast Bonded Witch Archetype. Eldritch Gaurdians have Familiars that know any Combat Feat the Master knows, including any Combat Feats that are also Teamwork Feats. Beast Bonded Witches can teach their Familiars Feats instead of learning them themselves.
As to your build in particular, I think it might be a good idea to see how it works as a Holy Tactician Warpriest. I'm having trouble finding any weapons that combine Tripping and Critting in ways I'm super excited about.
Ultimate Intrigue has a pretty nice Skald archetype that lets you choose Teamwork feats, Combat feats, or Rage Powers to share instead of just Rage Powers.
Dave Justus wrote: From what I see squad commander from constable cavalier makes it not count as one of your uses, but doesn't change the activation required (standard action.)
Battlefield presence from holy tactician is also a standard action.
And of course without throwing away fairly expensive consumables, the masterpiece is another standard action.
Unless I'm missing something about the activations required, I don't see all this as being worth it unless you have a party really tuned to take advantage of it, which won't really be the case in PFS.
I don't follow that interpretation for constable. At worst it would be have just like a readied action and just change my initiative. Holy Tactician's takes a standard action to choose a teamwork feat. After that, it's just always on. If I want to switch it to a different one later then that's a separate standard action.
Dave Justus wrote: squad commander from constable cavalier makes it not count as one of your uses, but doesn't change the activation required (standard action.) claudekennilol wrote: I don't follow that interpretation for constable. claude, that's not super open to interpretation. Using Tactician requires a Standard Action. Squad Commander has no language changing that that I see.
claudekennilol wrote: At worst it would be have just like a readied action I don't see any reason why you can't Ready the Standard Action required to activate the use of Tactician bought with the Constable Class Ability. But bear in mind that it still costs that Standard Action, and I don't see anything here that either lowers the action costs or gives you any extra actions.
I like your idea of using Seize the Moment and Improved Crit. And your idea of dipping into different Tactician Classes to be able to share different Feats is interesting. Plus, if you take Practiced Tactician, those extra uses of Tactician can apply to any of your Teamwork Feats. I do think you are onto something.
Another Teamwork Feat Class you should look at is Inquisitor. Solo Tactics do not cost an action. You get to act as if your allies had your Teamwork Feat, and it doesn't cost an action. Moreover, you can swap out one Teamwork Feat for another.
So, if you took Paired Opportunist via 3 levels in Inquisitor, you could take, say, Greater Bull Rush, granting all your allies Attacks of Opportunity with GBR because that's what GBR does. Then, with Paired Opportunist and Solo Tactics, you get an Attack of Opportunity, too. Normally, Bull Rushing is a Standard Action, but Quick Bull Rush makes it an Attack Action, Bull Rush Strikes lets you make the Bull Rush with every Crit, and Shield Slam lets you make a Bull Rush with every Shield Bash--as part of the Attack, not even at the cost of a Free Action. And you were thinking about using a Shield, anyway.
Bull Rushing as an advantage over Tripping in that a catastrophic Trip Check results in you getting Tripped yourself. Bull Rush doesn't have that problem. Both Tripping and Bull Rushing have the disadvantage of Size limits. I HATE the size limit rule for Tripping and Bull Rushing. But since you are talking about a Teamwork Feat Build, you should be able to work in the Harder They Fall. It depends on an Ally Aiding Another. Then you get a Bonus on your Combat Maneuver, and no more Size limit. So take say 2 levels in Fighter, Eldritch Gaurdian, get a Familiar with the Mauler Archetype, who then knows all the Combat Feats you know, including Combat Feats that are also Teamwork Feats like Paired Opporunist, Harder they Fall, and Broken Wing Gambit. Now you have a customized Flanking Buddy. Shield Slam him into your Medium Sized Dinosaur, he gets an Attack of Opportunity through GBR; you get one through Paired Opportunist. Your AoO will be another Shield Slam, of course, starting the cycle again, looping Attacks of Opportunity until your Combat Reflexes runs out.
This might be a minor problem, but I notice you have Vicious Stomp, but no levels in Monk or Brawler. Vicious Stomp only allows an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity, and whille you have Improved Unarmed Strike, it only does 1d3. If you took a level in Monk or Brawler, it would go up to 1d6. You can take Combat Reflexes as the Bonus Feat for level 1 Monk, so it won't be a waste. Vicious Stomp is a useful Feat to take whether you are going with Bull Rushing or sticking with Tripping, since, Shield Slam can be used to knock opponents Prone.
Thanks but solo tactics is specifically what I'm not doing.
Also walking around with my own teamwork partner is something I've done a lot of already, so no eldritch guardian for me.
I didn't ever intend for my stomp to be a damage dealer, it's just a way for me to let my allies get AoOs via paired opportunists before I'm able to share a second teamwork feat.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: If you are going for a Tripping Build and a Critical Build, a natural Feat to take is Tripping Strike: Free Trip on a Crit.
I believe all those [Combat Maneuver] Strike feats are traps for specialized CM-users.
In case of tripping:
You attack normally, hope for a crit, then trip the opponent and get an AoO., which is 2 attacks+trip in total.
If you do not crit, you get only one attack, no trip, no AoO.
Even with the Maximum of a 15-20 Crit Range, you benefit from the feat only 30% of the time, less if you consider you still have to verify the crit.
If you simply use your first attack for a trip, you get an AoO automatically (with greater trip), which is 1 attack+trip all of the time.
Over the Course of 10 attacks:
a) You get 10 attacks, at most 3 trips and 3 AoO's (and up to 3 AoO's from standing up)
b) You get 10 trips and 10 AoO's (and up to 10 AoO's from Standing up)
Since you specialize in tripping, you want your opponents to be prone all of the time.
Concerning size limits with bullrush: There is the Snowstride trait and there are the boots of the vengeful behir, that grant each one more size category to rush.
Weapon of choice for tripping would rather be a reach weapon, as you don't want the opponent full attacking from prone. I think tripping and bullrushing can both be pimped a lot with items and feats, so they are solid Options for granting your allies AoO's.
But I would not recommend a crit build
Prof. Löwenzahn wrote: But I would not recommend a crit build I would not recommend a Crit build, either, but Claude says he wants to Crit and to Trip, so I am making recommendations on how to optimimally get what he wants.
Prof. Löwenzahn wrote: Weapon of choice for tripping would rather be a reach weapon, as you don't want the opponent full attacking from prone. I think tripping and bullrushing can both be pimped a lot with items and feats, so they are solid Options for granting your allies AoO's. Tripping with a Reach Weapon is classic and a solid choice, but there are problems with it such that I would not recommend it to the OP.
The biggest problem with a Reach Weapon is that the OP wants to take Vicious Stomp, which triggers an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity as your opponent goes Prone. You usually can't make an Unarmed Strike with Reach, and the OP does not provide for any. A good way to go for that would be for the OP to take a Feat like Combat Patrol or Lunge or something to go along with his Tripping so that his Unarmed Reach matches his Reach-Weapon Reach. Actually, I'm starting to like this idea as I write. This character will stand behind a line of Fighters, Tripping people with his Reach Weapon, gaining 2 AoO's for himself and the whole fighter line every round. Maybe he can take Great Cleave and sweep everyone off their feet. I might have gotten around to advising that without your prompting, but as it happens, we owe that advice to you.
I personally prefer cheap, disposable Trip Weapons like Sickles. My thinking is that the point of having a Trip Weapon is that if you get Tripped by your own Trip Attempt, you can drop the weapon rather than get Tripped yourself. But if your Trip Weapon is a big weapon like a Horsechopper, you will miss it when it's gone. But if it's just a Sickle, Kama, or Light Flail, you just shrug your shoulders, pull out another one from your belt, and fight on. Plus, I want to make a character who uses a Sickle in one hand and a Warhammer in the other: he'll be the Soviet Union!
The OP really seems to want to Crit, so I was looking for a Trip Weapon that has a good Threat Range, but as I said earlier, I was having trouble finding one. The best compromise I can find is the Khopesh, a Trip Weapon with a 19-20 Threat Range, but I'm not super happy with that, either. That's why I suggesting Bull Rushing instead of Tripping, and therefore Inquisitor, but it turns out the OP doesn't want that, either.
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