I can't bring myself to play a Kineticist for these reasons . . . Am I overthinking things?


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For me personally, Kineticist is the ultimate heartbreaker class. I'm such a big Avatar the Last Airbender fan, but the class design is hideously bad, particularly for my favorite element: fire. I don't want to get into my laundry list of complaints, but I do have a question:

For those of us who dislike the Kineticist class, but love the idea of playing an elementalist, is there a 3rd party class that is similar?


Arachnofiend wrote:
It's primarily because in the beta kinetic form was essentially elemental body, complete with size bonuses, and it was so incredibly good that the class didn't really function unless you were permanently in elemental form. So they baked in the stat bonuses (which also expanded Kinetic Form to elements that lack an elemental) and made changing your size category a separate thing.

Plus, I would imagine that using the regular elemental body options would be somewhat inappropriate. The problem is that your element's form might be terrible for being an kineticist. I mean...earth's large strength bonus is useless, while everyone would go for water's dex/con bonus.

So the only way to be a good earth kineticist is to become a water elemental. Which is....yeah....

So just making elemental overflow element agnostic is probably for the best.

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Those are reasons not to play the class?

I struggle with the class because it's utterly annoying to build a character with. Many of its game mechanics are needlessly complicated. Wild talents are poorly organized. There's multiple types of talents with game mechanics that interact with some types but not others. There's annoying bookkeeping in managing burn and keeping track of how much all your infusions cost since you have to utilize multiple abilities for reducing burn costs.

It's no wonder it took me hours to create a high level kinectist as an NPC.


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If anything, My biggest complaint with the Kineticist is the power gaps.

Infusions/Shapes - You get these at 1, 3, 5, 9, 11th 13th 17th and 19ths.

You can only have an infusions up to 1/2 your kinetist level rounded down.

Then at 5 11 and 17 you get to replace one infusion.

The problem is You're stuck with level 2 infusions until you hit level Nine! There is no way that I know of to get level 3 infusions at 6. So by the time you bloody could get a 3rd level infusion, you're already able to get 4th level, and two levels away from getting a fifth level. (At level 11.)

Couple this with rather few, and poor 1 and 2 level infusions for the kinetist I tend to try to play (Aether) and I'm sitting around trying to figure out what to do.


Were your experiences with building a high level new character of any of the other classes bad? Because I have always found that without a firm grasp on what you are working with, it's difficult. Not to mention tiny changes like the one who does UMD as a wisdom based skill...


I honestly don't think that dealing with the bookkeeping and constantly referring back to the text with the Kineticist is really worse than it is with, say, the Wizard. I mean, how many books are wizard spells divided between? A Kineticist has about as many talents as levels, but how many spells does the Wizard have? It's not like keeping track of burn is that much more complicated than keeping track of spell slots. Creating a level 6 Kineticist involves choosing 1 element and 6 talents. Creating a level 6 sorcerer involves choosing 1 bloodline and ~20 spells. The big difference is that the Wizard is an extremely familiar class to veterans of the game, whereas the Kineticist is fairly new and unfamiliar. Just in terms of complexity, the Kineticist is much simpler though.

I agree that the books is fairly poorly organized though. A few of the SRD sites do a better job organizing it (in particular the Archives of Nethys layout is helpful.) I think once you sit down and come to understand the class, the Kineticist is one of the easiest classes to build since the overall decision tree is really simple (Level 1: pick 1 element, 1 blast, 1 infusion; level 2: pick 1 utility, level3: pick 1 infusion, level 4: pick 1 utility, level 5: pick 1 infusion; level 6: pick 1 utility). There are so few feats that are even relevant to the kineticist that feat choice is trivial, and the sheer number of considerations in choosing feats has made even the fighter a little complex.

I think organizing the powers by their "spell level" instead of the level a kineticist needs to be on order to take them is needlessly confusing; I mean your powers are considered to have an effective spell level equal to half of your level anyway whether it's a level 1 wild talent or a level 8 wild talent.


Darche Schneider wrote:

If anything, My biggest complaint with the Kineticist is the power gaps.

Infusions/Shapes - You get these at 1, 3, 5, 9, 11th 13th 17th and 19ths.

You can only have an infusions up to 1/2 your kinetist level rounded down.

Then at 5 11 and 17 you get to replace one infusion.

The problem is You're stuck with level 2 infusions until you hit level Nine! There is no way that I know of to get level 3 infusions at 6. So by the time you bloody could get a 3rd level infusion, you're already able to get 4th level, and two levels away from getting a fifth level. (At level 11.)

Couple this with rather few, and poor 1 and 2 level infusions for the kinetist I tend to try to play (Aether) and I'm sitting around trying to figure out what to do.

Well, you could grab a level 3 infusion...if you chose your current element again rather than diversifying.

That is the primary trade off they built in. So getting a different element and blast type could be seen as your level 3 infusion for that range if you choose to diversify.

It mostly comes off as a problem for energy blast users...ok, lets be honest- fire users, since most elements can grab two different types of blasts when they go single element, and we have already gone over how physical blasts can solve their major problem with "hit it harder". Fire, in comparison, has more trouble than any other element with defenses since there is a large, semicommon type of enemy that can shut down their damage (devils- who lack the fire subtype preventing that one specialized infusion usually used against immune creatures. Can't imagine a pyro would ever fly in Hell's Rebels campaign).

If they just gave fire another blast called "KABOOM" that does physical damage, then the 3rd level infusion problem would be much less of a problem, since it only comes up from people that choose, rather than being forced to diversify. Basically, it would be a 'crossblooded sorcerer' problem.

It isn't like earth users would complain too much that they are one of the few elements trapped with just one blast- they are already awesome enough. Aether users might complain though... maybe some kind of flying sword blast that lets them use materials and anti DR buff spells like bless weapon...


lemeres wrote:
Aether users might complain though... maybe some kind of flying sword blast that lets them use materials and anti DR buff spells like bless weapon...

I don't think you choose aether for damage to begin with, you choose it for utility and to be the way-cooler rogue. Plus aehter/aether gives you a composite blast that deals force damage (though less of it than other composite blasts) and nothing resists force damage (plus the aether blast has a built in option to hurl a weapon and do that weapon's damage.)


lemeres wrote:
Well, you could grab a level 3 infusion...if you chose your current element again rather than diversifying.

This.

But if you want infusions in the first place, then picking Aether was a terrible choice. It's got a lot of the fun wild talents, but only a few infusions. It's part of the feel of the element and as a result it's a bad idea to choose Aether if you want infusions since diversifying is way better.

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VampByDay wrote:
To hit bonuses

You can buy a cracked pale green prism ioun stone that can give you a +1 competence bonus to attack rolls for 4,000 gold.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Aether users might complain though... maybe some kind of flying sword blast that lets them use materials and anti DR buff spells like bless weapon...
I don't think you choose aether for damage to begin with, you choose it for utility and to be the way-cooler rogue. Plus aehter/aether gives you a composite blast that deals force damage (though less of it than other composite blasts) and nothing resists force damage (plus the aether blast has a built in option to hurl a weapon and do that weapon's damage.)

Well, you can get it to do decent damage, if you grab that disintergrating infusion. So it takes 3 levels later to get your consistant no burn damage (most get it at level 11 when gather is bumped to 2 burn, but this needs infusion specialization 4 as well to get no burn), and can't get a substance infusion while doing so, but you face no defenses. Plus it has a fort save that reduces it to half the basic blast damage (which isn't great, obviously...but hey, you DCs are fairly good anyway since it has good progression and you will have a high casting stat).

But my general point was that it doesn't have the multiple blast type options like water/air, or a good early composite to burst through like earth (which could possibly even remove DR). You can get decent single target damage, but it is more round about and later than other elements, so it does suffer in that department. Fire already has the best AoE blasts, and if it got a physical, it would be relieved of its one impediment. So leaving aether as the one stuck after that...

But as it has been said- you take aether for utility talents, not damage.


I can't speak too much to the experience part of the this since my new games is only one session in. I am also the unusual person here in that I am starting with Fire. I plan on then taking air at 7. If my group meets devils then yes I will suck for that encounter, but is that really any different than most classes. Wizards and Sorcerers aren't fans of running into golems, Fighters aren't itching for tons of fights with Ghosts, and the last Pathfinder Game I was in we had a Dark Tapestry Oracle. All of our fights started with her asking, "Does it have a brain?" When the answer was no she grabber her scythe and hacked at it, which resulted in little overall damage. When it did she usually had it crazy and begging for it's mom within a few rounds. Plus that character was loads of fun to have in the party and role play off of. I am honestly confused by the hate for the class on the this thread. Is it a class for that everyone will want to play, no; but honestly I would never want to play a fighter. Not because it is a bad class just because I wouldn't personally be interested. I am glad that Paizo is trying an alternate spell caster. Personally I think this a good attempt to capture the idea of a person with an innate control of an element who has to balance how tired it will make them. I think the utilities are fun and fully look forward to lvl 10 when I can Fly over the battle field unlikely to be hit by most typical ranged attacks raining destruction on my enemies.

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Oxylepy wrote:
I caved and let someone play one, currently at level 2, his character out damages everyone, out casts everyone, and has been tough as nails. That's with 18 Con, 4 Str, and 20 dex. I have yet to understand any of these topics where people claim they need a buff or are worried about how good the class is... it's a single stat class, rocking cleric hit die, good saves, and better damage than a caster. Oh, right, the single stat is the stat which affects little else because having a mono stat class using that stat is effectively broken. The entire class is complete cheese in everyone I know's book.

It certainly isn't helping that you've used house rules to allow the player to minmax to a frankly ridiculous level, that said he has essentially put himself utterly at your mercy and is hoping you don't use any strength damage on him. A solitary Shadow has 50% chance to kill him stone dead with one attack, let alone all the other creatures that deal strength damage and added problems such as poisons etc. It's obviously your own game and if everyone is having fun then great, but I'm not sure you are given the tone of your post, if you do decide to use house rules like allowing a 4 Str you're going to need to look at how that will have a knock on effect, in another game where the player can't dump their stats so much the character will naturally be doing less damage and be more balanced.


I'm sort of confused how a level 2 kineticist outdamages anybody. With 18 Con a level 2 kineticist deals 1d6 +6 on a physical or 1d6+2 on a energy blast, so an average of 9.5 or 5.5. A fighter with a 18 strength and power attack with a greatsword deals 2d6+8, so an average of 15. An 18 dex kineticist has +5 to hit at level 2, whereas the 18 str fighter using power attack has "only" a +5. Sure one is ranged and the other is not, but a competent archer will certainly outpace the kineticist eventually.

Like is this a party with no martials whatsoever?


Might be akin to something at my table. The martials wanted to be sword and shield users, and split their stats too much.


I just think doing 7-12 damage at level 2 shouldn't really be distorting the game all that much.


Pretty much like most two-handed weapon users. I mean, come on, 2d6+9 at +6 at level two is better than 7-12. 2d6+12 at +8 if you're a barbarian, but that's not all day.


I could have sworn the whole topic derailed to go into various things which lead to "don't worry, it'll balance itself out".

Still think 1d6+1/level (on even levels) at level 11 is a bit ridiculous for a full round action, not to mention the whole at all day giant sized craziness, and a few other aspects of the class which just seem broken as heck (constitution is a powerful statistic, decent hit die for a caster type, amazing skill points for a caster-type, 2 good saves, medium bab, fff it's like the whole works is mid range next to the typical low end of casters, and yes I realize a few casters have a few of these, but this is nuts).

However, that was my initial response after dealing with a very dex heavy sniper slayer, which lead to an outright ban of any book from advanced classes onwards. And it still remains my outlook on the class, it just feels very power-creepy, and everything seems to after the inner seas jazz.

Anyway, I'm just on this side of the spectrum, and cannot at all understand the other side of the argument that the class is "terrible".


Agreed. The class is by no means "terrible". I was very confused the first time I read through the class; however, once you are able to find a more agreeable format to view it all (I highly recommend archivesofnethys.com) it becomes very easy to understand.

The thing that makes people think kineticists are horrible class is Burn, which is not nearly as bad as most people make it out to be. The fun thing about Burn is that it actually makes it harder to die. You only take Nonlethal damage from Burn. So when your current HP is equal to the amount of Nonlethal damage you have taken, you go Unconscious... That's it. You're not Dying and in constant need to make Stabilization checks to avoid death and therefore there is no flat-out rush to get healing into your PC to Stabilize and avoid death. So you actually have a fairly decent cushion before death comes knocking.


Oxylepy wrote:

I could have sworn the whole topic derailed to go into various things which lead to "don't worry, it'll balance itself out".

Still think 1d6+1/level (on even levels) at level 11 is a bit ridiculous for a full round action, not to mention the whole at all day giant sized craziness, and a few other aspects of the class which just seem broken as heck (constitution is a powerful statistic, decent hit die for a caster type, amazing skill points for a caster-type, 2 good saves, medium bab, fff it's like the whole works is mid range next to the typical low end of casters, and yes I realize a few casters have a few of these, but this is nuts).

However, that was my initial response after dealing with a very dex heavy sniper slayer, which lead to an outright ban of any book from advanced classes onwards. And it still remains my outlook on the class, it just feels very power-creepy, and everything seems to after the inner seas jazz.

Anyway, I'm just on this side of the spectrum, and cannot at all understand the other side of the argument that the class is "terrible".

Well, some of those aspects come up with druids. They can go giant all day (there is even archetypes devoted to being giants).

And the scaling damage is not as scary when you consider the fact that it is one attack, and thus it doesn't get stat damage mutliple times, as well as power attack/deadly aim. That is why the damage from the blast is not as necessarily damaging as a bow full attack... ofn course, one of its advantages over bows is the fact that it isn;t a full round action- the blast is standard action, so you can keep up damage even on the move. It can also seemlessly switch between ranged and melee with kinetic blade.

And all of this doesn't get into AoE and debuff options. Even the poster child of blasting still has dispel and blinding options. Even a personal one man goz mask style.

Overall, the damage isn't amazing when put into DPR olympics- decent enough that they aren't a slouch (or a core only monk...), but still, it is frosting on the various infusion cakes.

Now, if you wanted damage, you would probably go with elemental annihilator. It does the whole switch hitting thing while using more conventional combat styles, which means it takes advantage of the damage boosting feats and its stat to damage. Not necessarily the best move from regular kineticist...but it still gets some infusions later on so it maintains some advantages.


I have been building a fire keneticist for Hells Vengence...so have of course been watching all these threads as I try to wrap my brain around the class (and should probably thank you all for the input...it has actually helped me to understand the class over time).

I really don't think burn is the tragedy that some seem to paint it as.
Like every other class, it's a limiting factor....and like every other class, it helps add flavor to the class if you look at it imaginatively enough.

The only thing that currently holds the class back...is that it's mechanics are unique enough to not fit in easily with previous material that has been released.

There are very few feats that lend well to it's mechanics, and next to nothing in the way of prestige classes that work with it.

So the diversity of what you can currently achieve is somewhat limited.

Hopefully they continue to add options for Psychic classes in general...and especially options that work with the keneticist.


He was debating on the EA, however it suggests investment into strength which in turn diminishes the typical minimal number of stats for the class to function. In addition the loss of many infusions and general loss of versatility from that really killed the desire to use the archetype.

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nighttree wrote:

I have been building a fire keneticist for Hells Vengence...so have of course been watching all these threads as I try to wrap my brain around the class (and should probably thank you all for the input...it has actually helped me to understand the class over time).

I really don't think burn is the tragedy that some seem to paint it as.
Like every other class, it's a limiting factor....and like every other class, it helps add flavor to the class if you look at it imaginatively enough.

The only thing that currently holds the class back...is that it's mechanics are unique enough to not fit in easily with previous material that has been released.

There are very few feats that lend well to it's mechanics, and next to nothing in the way of prestige classes that work with it.

So the diversity of what you can currently achieve is somewhat limited.

Hopefully they continue to add options for Psychic classes in general...and especially options that work with the keneticist.

I think part of the reason people don't like burn is it feels like they're being 'cheated out of' hit points that they earned from their constitution score. They feel like they have an HP tax to play the class. In a way it's true, but not to the extent that most people are considering it. With elemental overflow, it becomes less of an issue (as most classes don't have an ALL DAY stat buff), and you'll still end up with some extra HP, but you'll also VERY MUCH feel like a d8 hit die class, which is what I think some people are hung up on.

The lack of previously compatible material is painful, and it's the OA class that probably has the biggest problem with that, although it does open up VMC as a valid option due to the lack of feat dependency. Gear wise, they're also hosed since there's basically nothing 'vital' to the class except for a con belt, but it also lets them pick out more 'interesting' items.

I think as more content is released, it'll come into its own, but due to the mechanics, I think that it's also going to cause some new items to be written a lot more carefully, since a ranged attack feat/ability/etc now has to take into account that it could also be used with a kinetic blast.


See, burn is part of what I don't understand about their argument. I don't consider it a heavy loss. You are choosing to drop 1 point of your con bonus to hit points, starting with a 16-20 means you have 3-5 worth of room to work with. Add in the retraining rules and you have another 2 burn you can accept over a Con 10 Wizard or similar class with max hit points. Toughness, fcb add another 2, so you have 7-9 burn to turn into a moderate hp caster. Without retraining rules, then that 7-9 is only really a 6-8 going off average rolls.

Add in ignoring burn, bonuses for having burn (which cap bellow that limit), your stat increases going to con, and finally the amazing con belt, and suddenly you're looking at 12-14 burn to play with to caster hit die... yeah honestly that drawback isn't really a drawback.

And that's what put us from "wow this is strong" to "omg this is cheese."


Partly though the lack of necessary feats and important magic items does lend some freedom to the Kineticist. Your big six items are a big five, so you can be a bonus ahead on certain items at various points in your career. That there aren't many feats that have anything to do with what you mostly want to do opens you up to VMC or just taking whatever feats tickle your fancy that other classes would probably avoid because they have a ton of feats relevant to what they do (e.g. Stone Sense, Animal Ally, etc.

If there was a combat style specifically for kineticists that ate five feats to get to the end of it, that would be nice if it was good, but it would also kill some of the freedom in the class (I mean, that you run out of relevant feats means you can include fun stuff on even an optimized kineticist.) That is, there's not that much you can do to max, so you don't have to min quite as much.


Oxylepy wrote:

I could have sworn the whole topic derailed to go into various things which lead to "don't worry, it'll balance itself out".

Still think 1d6+1/level (on even levels) at level 11 is a bit ridiculous for a full round action, not to mention the whole at all day giant sized craziness, and a few other aspects of the class which just seem broken as heck (constitution is a powerful statistic, decent hit die for a caster type, amazing skill points for a caster-type, 2 good saves, medium bab, fff it's like the whole works is mid range next to the typical low end of casters, and yes I realize a few casters have a few of these, but this is nuts).

It's actually 1d6+1/2 levels, unless you're counting composites which means you're not getting empowered so they equal out. You're also not getting iterative attacks like full martial classes so it's needed to keep up with them. CON casting stat is strong but it doesn't help anywhere else other than fort save and HP. There are no CON skill checks. The class should be treated as a half caster half martial and the class features reflect that. Weak will is the worst stat to be weak to.

Quote:

However, that was my initial response after dealing with a very dex heavy sniper slayer, which lead to an outright ban of any book from advanced classes onwards. And it still remains my outlook on the class, it just feels very power-creepy, and everything seems to after the inner seas jazz.

Anyway, I'm just on this side of the spectrum, and cannot at all understand the other side of the argument that the class is "terrible".

Honestly, the bulk of the class's power doesn't come from damage. Yes they do pretty good damage at early levels, but then martials get multiple attacks and don't outshine there anymore. Their true power, IMO, comes from their utility. The all day utility 'spells' and the utility infusions, which don't really come online until ~11+.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I've seen Kineticists played at low levels, one monk/earth Kineticist multiclass I DMed for that absolutely wrecked things as soon as Kinetic Fist came online (we used the Unchained Action Economy, so 1 act to gather, 1 to move, and 1 for 2 attacks with Flurry made for a surprisingly mobile hammer). There's an archetype with Flurry that gets to use it for free, and since that includes the Flurry BAB it's a pretty decent trade to be effective earlier. The other was a hydrokineticist who was going for a Kinetic Whip AoO build. He suffered for about two levels thanks to bad rolls and lower attack bonuses but upon hitting level 3 became a powerhouse. I've made a few in my spare time, from Hitman Reborn's Tsuna (Fire/Ice Kinetic Fist build) to reach hydros like the second player had (very long reach and more control than most melee characters get thanks to infusions) and sneaky Aetherkineticists (Telekinetic with the Rogue VMC focusing on skills, Stealth, and utility). All were solid characters who I could see functioning in a party but certainly not the broken powerhouses or gimped weaklings many people seem to think they are. Burn as a mechanic is thematic, usually avoidable, and worth the tradeoffs available for most cases (Fire and Void, step it up). Sure, a well-built Archer will outdamage them in most cases, but those archers aren't also staggering, blinding, or dispelling foes simultaneously, and they typically don't have access to the out-of-combat utility the class can access.

All-in-all, I say it's pretty balanced. They have a variety of options for builds doing damage, control, utility, or any combination of the three. My only gripe is that there isn't much content released for them yet. Hey, Mark! More please!

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Oxylepy wrote:

I could have sworn the whole topic derailed to go into various things which lead to "don't worry, it'll balance itself out".

Still think 1d6+1/level (on even levels) at level 11 is a bit ridiculous for a full round action, not to mention the whole at all day giant sized craziness, and a few other aspects of the class which just seem broken as heck (constitution is a powerful statistic, decent hit die for a caster type, amazing skill points for a caster-type, 2 good saves, medium bab, fff it's like the whole works is mid range next to the typical low end of casters, and yes I realize a few casters have a few of these, but this is nuts).

A decently built basic Fighter using archery will do much more damage than a Kineticist, you don't often hear people saying Fighters are op and 'cheese'. Kineticists are a fun, relatively balanced class who have a lot of versatility and can do decent damage, not intending to be combative but if you're basing all this on the 4 Str character in your game it's hard to have a discussion since you're using house rules that let him be way more powerful than in a normal game.


The Mortonator wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Well, you could grab a level 3 infusion...if you chose your current element again rather than diversifying.

This.

But if you want infusions in the first place, then picking Aether was a terrible choice. It's got a lot of the fun wild talents, but only a few infusions. It's part of the feel of the element and as a result it's a bad idea to choose Aether if you want infusions since diversifying is way better.

I did miss the part where if you take the element again you do get a new infusion

Its not so much I want infusions, as much as I want specific infusions. Its true, Aether is absolutely wonderful when it comes to its Utility talents. Much more than other types, I think you've got a larger blending of power when you start being able to use your telekinesis to fight, without having to use the blast, but well the first few things really blow. But specific ones I'd be wanting to get that I couldn't really get are Foe Throw, Extreme range and flurry of blasts. Granted, they are all form infusions.


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I do think all kineticists should get their infusions at 7 and 15, regardless of if they expand or stay in their element. Instead of actually getting an infusion, I think those who stay in their starting element should get those bonuses described at 15 for being a single element kinny.


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The problem I have with the class is that I always compare it to the alchemist. I feel they should be comparable to a bomber alchemist damage wise, but they're not even close. Even worse, they're nowhere close to a the alchemist in utility either. So, what exactly is a Kineticist good for besides their (admittedly cool) flavor.


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HeHateMe wrote:
The problem I have with the class is that I always compare it to the alchemist. I feel they should be comparable to a bomber alchemist damage wise, but they're not even close. Even worse, they're nowhere close to a the alchemist in utility either. So, what exactly is a Kineticist good for besides their (admittedly cool) flavor.

The Alchemist runs out of stuff; your mutagen runs out in a couple of hours and making another is nontrivial, you have fairly few bombs, and your extracts are fairly limited. The Kineticist never runs out of anything they can can reduce the burn cost to zero. So they're vastly different in this way. The opportunity cost for a level 8 geokineticist to use an extended range infusion that entangles or trips is "one round's worth of actions", likewise the opportunity cost for a level 8 pyrokineticist to use burning erruption to deal blast damage & set on fire everything within a 10' radius anywhere within 120'; an aerokineticist will never need to touch the ground the rest of their life after taking wings of air, and a telekineticist can turn invisible whenever and as often as they want.

The Kineticist is a great class for "people who hesitate to use abilities for fear of running out of uses of them" since you really never do. It also means you get to star in those days where the GM decides to throw a marathon of fights at you without the ability to rest and regain spells slots etc.

So the alchemist and the kineticist couldn't really be more different in this regard.


Suthainn wrote:
but if you're basing all this on the 4 Str character in your game it's hard to have a discussion since you're using house rules that let him be way more powerful than in a normal game.

Why do none of you people listen. It's like talking to a bloody wall. For the nth time, and hopefully final, THESE WERE THE OPINIONS WE GENERATED AS A GROUP LOOKING AT THE CLASS PRIOR TO THE CHARACTER EVEN BEING BUILT.

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HeHateMe wrote:
The problem I have with the class is that I always compare it to the alchemist. I feel they should be comparable to a bomber alchemist damage wise, but they're not even close. Even worse, they're nowhere close to a the alchemist in utility either. So, what exactly is a Kineticist good for besides their (admittedly cool) flavor.

I don't know that I would say they're lacking in either damage or utility.

An aetherkineticist has all sorts of hilarious potential for not only SoD effects, but also can support the party in a wide variety of ways outside of combat. Part of the problem isn't the abilities, but the fact that folks aren't creative enough using them. You have flight baked into your class essentially for free at level 4. And you can fly other people too. You get your first possible SoD ability at level 7, and by level 12 you can kill anything that needs to breathe if you have the time to wait them out. You get almost blindisght, and at will invisibility. And this is the most viable build of the aetherkineticist.

Geokineticists can become largely immune to all attacks at level 10, through the use of tremorsense and earthglide. Now you're underground, and you can still see all of your enemies, and hit them in the face with your preferred blast. You don't have the same potential for utility that the aetherkineticist does, but you can make an incredible scout, in addition to being a damage dealing powerhouse that is the only thing in the game that I can see becoming functionally untouchable. And you can do a non-trivial amount of damage as a whip kineticist.

Kineticist isn't the best class in the game by any measure, but it certainly has the ability to hold its own in a lot of ways.

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Oxylepy wrote:
Suthainn wrote:
but if you're basing all this on the 4 Str character in your game it's hard to have a discussion since you're using house rules that let him be way more powerful than in a normal game.
Why do none of you people listen. It's like talking to a bloody wall. For the nth time, and hopefully final, THESE WERE THE OPINIONS WE GENERATED AS A GROUP LOOKING AT THE CLASS PRIOR TO THE CHARACTER EVEN BEING BUILT.

Firstly, calm down and take a breath.

The reason people disagree with your opinions on the class is because those opinions seem to have been based on suppositions that those of us who have actually played the class for many levels with other decently built characters know to be wrong. You can sit down and do the math showing a basic archer does more damage than a Kineticist, the difference is that the Kineticist gains a lot of utility in return for this, it's a balance.

That, and some of your statements seem to fly in the face of fact, for example stating that a level 2 Kineticist "outdamages everyone", when a simple Barbarian with a Greataxe, Power Attack and an 18 Str does 1d12+9 every round versus the 1d6+5 of the Kineticist, or a similar Str Human Archer using PBS and Rapid Shot to put out 1d8+5 twice a round, every round. Core rules characters doing much more dps right out the gate.


Also, while the kineticist really has very little use for strength, having a Strength of 4 is kind of a terrible idea. Since your unmodified blasts have a range of 30 and you're not always going to want to use your form infusion on extended range (or deal with the burn cost for it), you're going to be hanging out within charge range. Since you have light armor proficiency you're going to want to be wearing some kind of armor, and with a strength of 4 a chain shirt alone is going to put you at 2 lbs short of a heavy load (which makes that big dex help your AC much less, and makes you easier to charge.)

Just having that strength up to a normal dumped stat of 7 or 8 will let you effectively wear the armor you're proficient in without killing your dex bonus, which is going to make you much more survivable.

A character that struggles to even carry a pack, or their money, or basic utility items is kind of suboptimal.


The kineticist's problem is that it can be a little hard for people to understand at first glance.

In reality, by level 18 it has +6 to hit and +12 damage if it takes 6 burn. Add onto that where the class is allowed to take more burn to increase its physical statistics and it quickly becomes a monster, likely adding +6 to Con and +4 to Dex.

I had a telekineticist kitsune that spent all of its time in fox form, and the little fluffy butt would go around murderizing everything in its path and being the primary healer of the group. It was outrageous.

With his whopping 324 max hp after the burn size bonus to CON and his phenomenal ability to pass fort saves, he could walk into disintegrate traps for days. Hell, he could have more if his con didn't start at 16 or if he played a race that increased his con, but, at the end of the day, I was playing a fox that chuffed in the face of danger. Have at you. The being invisible forever part via telekinetic invisibility (I know, it's not "real" invisibility) was an enormous perk: tiny, stupid bonuses to stealth and holy-shiza deadly when he wanted to be equaled being next to unkillable.

The strength of kineticists are the constant and spammable abilities.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Legio_MCMLXXXVII wrote:

by level 12 you can kill anything that needs to breathe if you have the time to wait them out. You get almost blindisght, and at will invisibility. And this is the most viable build of the aetherkineticist.

Geokineticists can become largely immune to all attacks at level 10, through the use of tremorsense and earthglide.

What I'm seeing here is a big difference in campaign style. Most examples of how cool the kinny is are based on either (1) levels 10-20, or (2) marathon days with no time to recover spells or extracts.

But in the campaigns I play in (including but not limited to PFS), that just doesn't apply. There are no days so long that a moderate-level bard or alchemist runs out of things to do, and the campaign just ends somewhere between level 8 and 11.

Even so, the kinny is by no means bad. But neither does he get that big a chance to shine.


By the way, I am looking for a ruling to see if sneak attack (i.e. with rogue VMC) works with kineticist blasts. I presume it should be ok, but was there any clarification on that?

Silver Crusade

The Shaman wrote:
By the way, I am looking for a ruling to see if sneak attack (i.e. with rogue VMC) works with kineticist blasts. I presume it should be ok, but was there any clarification on that?

As far as I know, you should be good on that end. It does give some more value to flurry of blast and kinetic blade, although I'm not sure the damage scales well enough (or if you have good enough abilities to get opponents flatfooted) to make it a viable option.

As an aside here, I think the Kineticist is popular in the same way that the monk is, the security of being always armed even if it rarely (if ever) comes up. The early game abilities are nice, but most early utility wild talents (at least until 6th) are pretty tame as a whole, which is why you always see people talking about the mid game for this class. But really, just about every class is fun in the mid game, so it's not really a great argument.

Shadow Lodge

The one thing they seem to be missing to me is an equivalent to Amulet of Mighty Fists. Something that lets you add weapon enhancements to your blasts.

Scarab Sages

thistledown wrote:
The one thing they seem to be missing to me is an equivalent to Amulet of Mighty Fists. Something that lets you add weapon enhancements to your blasts.

It's baked into the class itself with Elemental Overflow.


Once you get elemental overflow topped off, your basic accuracy with kinetic blasts more or less matches a full BAB class, but they're rocking weapon enhancements to hit and you are not. I don't know if an item that increases damage like an AoMF is necessary, but it would be nice to get a piece of equipment (other than a belt) that ups your accuracy. This would be particularly useful for elements that don't have access to an energy blast. Since (barring kinetic blade etc.) you only attack once per round, missing is kind of a big deal for you.

Scarab Sages

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Since (barring kinetic blade etc.) you only attack once per round, missing is kind of a big deal for you.

Yes, But accuracy is never a problem for the first attack for a 3/4 BAB class. Because you have only one attack, you are likely going to hit, unless you habitually roll under 5. Especially if you have access to buffs from Bless, Heroism, Bardic Perfromance, and so on.


I'd like something like an Amulet of the mighty fists for Kineticists, but not for attack and damage, just special abilities like seeking or bane. Thematically, this item would be a pair of gloves.


It really seems that "adding effects to your blasts" is what substance infusions are for.


Well I don't see them adding a Bane Infusion anytime soon. Or, if they did, it would be limited to creatures with the elemental subtypes and near useless.


Amulet of Falcon? +1 competence hit with ranged attacks.
Only 4K

Ioun Stone: Flawed Pale Green, +1 morale, 28K

Shadow Lodge

Azten is on the same page as me. Bane, merciful, ghosttouch, and heartseaker are all nice to have.

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