For an upcoming Kingmaker game, I'm planning on creating an Aldori Swordlord. While I was originally considering rolling with the fighter archetype into the prestige class, I've been considering potentially going either swashbuckler or even a daring champion cavalier, which would go into the prestige class at 6th level.
One thing I'm hung up on is the following...
How does the Aldori dueling sword, specifically this passage, "A dueling sword may be used as a Martial Weapon (in which case it functions as a longsword), but if you have the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (dueling sword), you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with a dueling sword sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon." interact with...
Swashbuckler Finesse, "At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.", and the similar...
Champion's Finesse, "At 1st level, a daring champion gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and he can use Charisma in place of Intelligence for the purpose of combat feats prerequisites. A daring champion also counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for the purpose of meeting feat requirements."?
Upon reading them over, I'm under the impression in order to gain the ability to apply Dexterity to my attacks with the dueling sword, I would need to grab the slashing grace feat. Unfortunately, picking that feels redundant, as the first level of the prestige class grants...
Deft Strike, "A swordlord can add his Dexterity bonus (if any) on damage rolls made with a dueling sword instead of his Strength bonus. This bonus on damage rolls applies whether the swordlord is wielding a dueling sword one-handed or two-handed, though the swordlord does not apply 1-1/2 times his Dexterity bonus on damage rolls while fighting two-handed. A swordlord cannot use this ability if he is wielding a shield or an off-hand weapon, including armor spikes, unarmed strikes, or natural weapons.".
And if, after gaining the prestige class, I chose to drop Slashing Grace through retraining due to the redundancy, I would then lose my ability to finesse the dueling sword.
Or at least this is how I'm reading it. Thoughts and opinions? Or am I stuck with going the fighter archetype?
Also, I'm sure someone is going to want to chime in how much of a trap many of the options for the swordlord is and how it's a second rate archetype/prestige. You needn't bother as that does not concern me. Any other comments are appreciated :)
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If you want your Aldori Sword to count as a piercing weapon you need Slashing Grace. Fullstop.
As for which Finesse path to choose, the answer is C. Unchained Rogue as they are the only Finesse class which give 1.5x Dex to damage when two handed fighting, and requires no Slashing Grace.
I suppose that makes me lament even further the fact that no swashbuckler archetype was created for swordlords in Advanced Class Origins. Oh well, the fighter it is!
My only comment on being a Swordlord would be that the entry requirements involve no BAB, so from a power (and in my opinion coolness) perspective, five levels of Swordlord Fighter is not only dull but pretty damn weak - even just five levels of straight Fighter will get you Armor Training and Weapon Training (that means Gloves of Dueling awesomeness) instead of a big bag of peanuts on Halloween.
Just as an example, you could take 4 levels of Warpriest and the Fate's Favored and Magical Knack Traits, giving yourself a swift-action +3/+3 Divine Favor spell (Holy Swordlord!).
Or, take a few levels of Urban Barbarian and Extra Rage so that you can use Controlled Rage (Fierce Swordlord!).
You could even take 4 levels of Ninja or Rogue to pick up a Ki Pool and maybe some Extra Ki, and then grab things like Vanishing Trick and Shadow Clone (Shadow Swordlord!).
It's actually kind of crazy what you can do with five levels on a martial.
I guess the question is, what is it you want to get out of the PrC?
even just five levels of straight Fighter will get you Armor Training and Weapon Training (that means Gloves of Dueling awesomeness) instead of a big bag of peanuts on Halloween.
The Swordlord does get weapon training, it is just delayed. By the time you can afford Gloves of Dueling, you'll be able to use them.
I guess the question is, what is it you want to get out of the PrC?
Well, they said they don't care that it is a trap, so I would assume playing of a role.
It's kinda a shame the Swordlord archetype isn't for Rogue. Those would be much better class features on a Rogue using a bare hand and sword TWF style.
If you are unwilling to go Rogue though, than Swashbuckler might be your best option. Daring Champion can work if you are willing to go Order of the Eastern Star, but I dunno if that would hurt your RP side. The Daring Champion on a whole is a lot worse than most people talk it up. You don't get many fun deeds. Challenge kinda works for the idea of honor duels if you want to do that. It's a shame that Inspired Blade is only for rapiers, cause, again, Swashbuckler without any archetypes are mostly bad.
Order of the Easter Star Cavalier would be my pick for best of a mechanically weak group. It's a real shame Inspired Blade doesn't use their special weapon. That could be a lot of fun. I think if I wanted to duel I'd ask my GM to cheat on that one.
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Here is an interesting guide on Aldori Swordlords. The guide does call out some traps but not in relation to the PrC itself. I hope that you find it helpful.
Thanks for the feedback!
I guess the question is, what is it you want to get out of the PrC?
I want to get an Aldori Swordlord! To explain, I think they're a very interesting but under utilized part of Golarion's lore (partially due to the severe lack of APs or modules in the region, I imagine). Even more unfortunately, the few times they have been addressed, they just seem to fall short. A while back I actually created an Aldori fighter into PrC as an NPC in a campaign I was running and kicked one of my player's asses with it, which is what initially drew me to recreating that situation.
I like the idea of this character being a duelist without peer, particularly disarming people and intimidating them all in one swoop. They wouldn't be quiet about their capability either, being a braggart who ultimately wishes to let their blade do the talking.
As it is, I've been considering the costs and benefits of all approaches I detailed before.
If I go straight swashbuckler, I'd end up needing to grab slashing grace. I believe my GM will allow Duelist's Gloves to work with the Swashbuckler Weapon Training, though not the feats from Weapon Master's Handbook (of course there's always Martial Focus if I want to grab some of those).
Straight Daring Champion nets me similar bonuses as Swashbuckler, but I don't like losing out on Opportune Parry & Riposte and Menacing Swordplay. On the other hand, the challenge bonus is really nice, and I was planning to go with the Order of the Cockatrice to pick up Dazzling Display at 2nd level (plus it really fits the personality).
And finally, I could go Fighter (swordlord) 5/Aldori Swordlord X. This route guarantees Gloves of Dueling as well as Weapon Master's Handbook fun, in addition to lots of feats so I have room to breathe, so to speak. Unfortunately, I feel waiting until 6th level to get Dex to damage will hurt, and as ever the lack of fighter's skills is a frustration.
Here is an interesting guide on Aldori Swordlords. The guide does call out some traps but not in relation to the PrC itself. I hope that you find it helpful.
Yes, I have read that guide, and it's unfortunately pretty dated (not that the views aren't valid). I'm just not a fan of a primarily strength based duelist, though I suppose it is an option.
Another frustrating set of options are the feats added in Inner Sea Combat, Aldori dueling disciple, duelist of the roaring falls, duelist of the shrouded lake, and falling water gambit. These feats, supposedly Aldori techniques, are mostly... Weird and mismatched, to put it kindly. Dueling disciple isn't bad to gain bonuses for Intimidate, but the other three feats seem determined not to work together and prove difficult to justify fitting into a build. It's as though Paizo wants the Aldori swordlords to (not to secretly) actually be awful...
That's it! They're not swordsman at all! They're a buncha wannabe-fighter wizards! Duh!
Anyway, at the moment I'm putting together builds on a spreadsheet between my three current choices to compare them and the progression and class features I'll gain. Thank you again for all of your input!
Go fighter (no archetype) and then switch to PrC. Even better, go Mutagen warrior and get that mutagen bonus to dex for more damage/ac.
And if, after gaining the prestige class, I chose to drop Slashing Grace through retraining due to the redundancy, I would then lose my ability to finesse the dueling sword.
Well, I would suggest seeing if your DM would let the Dueling Mastery bonus feat allow you to utilize Champion's/Swashbuckler Finesse with the Dueling sword.
You get Dueling Mastery as a bonus feat for the first level of Aldori Swordlord. Part of the feat says "Although the dueling sword inflicts slashing damage, you treat it as if it were also a piercing weapon when determining the effects of weapons used by a duelist."
Now, it is likely it means specifically for the duelist prestige class, but I don't see why it shouldn't also work for the Daring Champion and Swashbuckler base classes.
This would let you continue to use Champion's/Swashbuckler finesse and retrain out Slashing Grace (with Swordlord's Deft Strike ability giving you Dex to dmg back as well).
Daring Champion, Order of the Cockatrice is my recommendation.
Well, I would suggest seeing if your DM would let the Dueling Mastery bonus feat allow you to utilize Champion's/Swashbuckler Finesse with the Dueling sword.
You get Dueling Mastery as a bonus feat for the first level of Aldori Swordlord. Part of the feat says "Although the dueling sword inflicts slashing damage, you treat it as if it were also a piercing weapon when determining the effects of weapons used by a duelist."
Now, it is likely it means specifically for the duelist prestige class, but I don't see why it shouldn't also work for the Daring Champion and Swashbuckler base classes.
This would let you continue to use Champion's/Swashbuckler finesse and retrain out Slashing Grace (with Swordlord's Deft Strike ability giving you Dex to dmg back as well).
Daring Champion, Order of the Cockatrice is my recommendation.
...Huh, I COMPLETELY missed that. Although I'm sure it wouldn't fly in something like PFS, I imagine my GM will go for this. Thank you! This may just make this build possible!
even just five levels of straight Fighter will get you Armor Training and Weapon Training (that means Gloves of Dueling awesomeness) instead of a big bag of peanuts on Halloween.The Swordlord does get weapon training, it is just delayed. By the time you can afford Gloves of Dueling, you'll be able to use them.
The problem is that if you're going into the Prestige Class at level 5, then you'll never reach the Archetype level where you actually get it. The Archetype and the Prestige Class don't merge well.
The problem is that if you're going into the Prestige Class at level 5, then you'll never reach the Archetype level where you actually get it. The Archetype and the Prestige Class don't merge well.even just five levels of straight Fighter will get you Armor Training and Weapon Training (that means Gloves of Dueling awesomeness) instead of a big bag of peanuts on Halloween.The Swordlord does get weapon training, it is just delayed. By the time you can afford Gloves of Dueling, you'll be able to use them.
I would go one or the other, never merge the two.
I would go one or the other, never merge the two.The problem is that if you're going into the Prestige Class at level 5, then you'll never reach the Archetype level where you actually get it. The Archetype and the Prestige Class don't merge well.even just five levels of straight Fighter will get you Armor Training and Weapon Training (that means Gloves of Dueling awesomeness) instead of a big bag of peanuts on Halloween.The Swordlord does get weapon training, it is just delayed. By the time you can afford Gloves of Dueling, you'll be able to use them.
Yep, which is what I was getting at, since the OP wants to go with the Prestige Class.
Could you take 5 levels of swashbuckler as a human, use the extra feat for EWP=Dueling Sword, take Dazzling Display and then go into Aldori Swordlord PrC for one level? Seems like a decent idea since you essentially get two feats with one level of Aldori PrC (Aldori Dueling Mastery and Dex to Damage) without wasting a feat for quick draw. and then finish off with swashbuckler levels. A SWA 11 / Ald PrC 1 for PFS (which is what i tend to play) unarmored and with regular dueling sword has an AC of 20 (+4 DEX, +4 Dodge, +2 Shield) and a to hit of 20 (or 16 with Power Attack) and a damage of +27 (+11 precision, +4 Dex, +2 Wpn Spec, +2 Swash Wpn Training, +8 PA).
Unarmored AC of 20-
+16 to hit with Power Attack
+27 to damage
not bad IMHO
Go fighter (vanilla, weapon master or mutagen warrior, it's not unthinkable a swordlord would also have dabbled in alchemy at some point) don't take the archetype.
Then apply some advanced weapon training options to the mix (Dazzling Intimidation, Defensive Weapon Training, Warrior Spirit and Armed Bravery are all appropriate and good), you'll get a character who can do his job with decent confidence and represents the swordlord idea pretty well. The main problem here is the prestige class itself: aside from the first 4 or 5 levels it doesn't do much for the swordlord unfortunately.