The trip goes first. This is a very valid tactic, particularly with a reach weapon.
The trip resolves first, so the archer or caster would be attacking from the ground (which i think will prevent a longbow attack , but not casting)
I think a better way of putting it is the trip resolves before the action that precipitated it finishes. The AoO interrupts the action rather than precedes it.
So the caster would need a violent motion Concentration check rather than just casting from the ground. If you were tripped whilst trying to use a ranged weapon I'd probably say you lose the shot.
That is untrue. Spells are an explicit special case. In other cases, the AoO happens before the action that triggers it.
That is untrue. Spells are an explicit special case. In other cases, the AoO happens before the action that triggers it.
Citation please? All I can find is -
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
I've always taken that to mean you declare the action that provokes (thus commencing that action) the AoO takes place and is resolved, the provoking action is completed if still viable. Is that not the case?
I've been curious how this works with my reaching shield bash build, where enemies can be bull rushed away from you during thier movement. I suspect they could continue their move action after resolving the slam, but what happens if they are charging, because a charge can only be in a straight line.
|
I've been curious how this works with my reaching shield bash build, where enemies can be bull rushed away from you during thier movement. I suspect they could continue their move action after resolving the slam, but what happens if they are charging, because a charge can only be in a straight line.
If you get pushed off-course during the charge, your charge would be invalidated. Unfortunately the rules for charging are rather rigidly written. Sometimes that creates situations that make little sense, although in this case I'd say it's working as probably intended.
I'd say see if you can still reach your target with a direct line, keeping your movement as straight as possible considering your momentum (see poorly-drawn diagram below). Just stopping after the shield bash feels unnatural. Maybe treat it as a double-move and get normal movement from that point on, rather than charge restrictions.
It's a weird corner case the rules (intentionally?) don't cover very well. I've seen a monster suddenly get entangled mid-charge (due to an Entangle spell going off). The DM ruled momentum carried him through, but with regular difficult terrain penalties, as just stopping your turn after 10 feet of movement and doing nothing didn't make sense.
I'd rule the following when moved from your original path (Y = you, E = enemy, - = charge lane, . = nothing):
Normal situation:
Y--------E
Bull rush:
Y----\......E
........----
Bull rush 2:
Y-----\.....E
.........\
...........-----
In this case, the bull rush pushed him out of reach. I'd say he'd get regular movement at that point, but no loss in action economy, other than no standard action.
There are all kinds of different opinions about how AoOs work and I don't think this is a good post for that.
The specific point I was making was:
The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).
Trip: When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.
So for spells, the AoO is During and for pretty much everything else it is before. Like I said, there are SERIOUS differences in how that parses out to people and you should search for those threads for info.
|
|
I think it hinges on how you interpret "resolved" in the FAQ. I believe a better interpretation is to treat it as a synonym for "finished". Consider:
I'm taking a move action to move from A to B via C. At point C I trigger an AoO from you and get shanked. That AoO is executed before I "resolve" my move action, but clearly, I'm not at point A anymore, because you didn't threaten me until I left space C. So this AoO doesn't happen entirely before my move action; it happens before the remainder of my move action. We do the AoO, then I resolve/finish moving.
And with that the Trip FAQ makes perfect sense. You can't achieve anything by tripping someone who hasn't finished standing up yet, because he's prone until he completes his standing-up action. Once he's finished standing up, he's not provoking anymore.
So with that, there's no difference between spells and other AoOs in when they happen.
The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved
"Before the action that triggered it is resolved" is different from "before the action that triggers it takes place".
You start to stand up - AoO - you finish standing up - if you still can.
You start to cast a spell - AoO - you finish casting the spell if you still can.
You call you are moving out of a threatened square - AoO is triggered - you finish moving out of said square - if you can.
Only things that take time trigger AoOs; swift, free and immediate actions don't trigger them c.f. Quickened Spells.
An AoO is triggered by an action being called and so interrupts it before that action is resolvedi.e. during the action.
They can't take place "before" the action that triggers them otherwise what would trigger them?
Ninja'd!
I think it hinges on how you interpret "resolved" in the FAQ. I believe a better interpretation is to treat it as a synonym for "finished". Consider:
I'm taking a move action to move from A to B via C. At point C I trigger an AoO from you and get shanked. That AoO is executed before I "resolve" my move action, but clearly, I'm not at point A anymore, because you didn't threaten me until I left space C. So this AoO doesn't happen entirely before my move action; it happens before the remainder of my move action. We do the AoO, then I resolve/finish moving.
And with that the Trip FAQ makes perfect sense. You can't achieve anything by tripping someone who hasn't finished standing up yet, because he's prone until he completes his standing-up action. Once he's finished standing up, he's not provoking anymore.
So with that, there's no difference between spells and other AoOs in when they happen.
When you change words then yes, you can make the meaning fit what ever you would like.
And I completely disagree that the trip FAQ makes perfect sense with your changing of the words. If you are attempting to stand up, I can easily pull out which ever limb is supporting you while you are doing it, dropping you right back to prone. There is no reason why anyone would ever wait until you stood up fully before putting you back down. If it happened DURING your attempt to stand up, you would not get up.
But because it happens BEFORE your attempt to get up (in the game mechanics) then you can still get up. The rule doesn't even say that tripping you is not allowed, it says that there is no gain from doing so because you get up AFTER the trip.
Or to quote the FAQ again:
"Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up."
The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved"Before the action that triggered it is resolved" is different from "before the action that triggers it takes place".
You start to stand up - AoO - you finish standing up - if you still can.
You start to cast a spell - AoO - you finish casting the spell if you still can.
You call you are moving out of a threatened square - AoO is triggered - you finish moving out of said square - if you can.
Only things that take time trigger AoOs; swift, free and immediate actions don't trigger them c.f. Quickened Spells.
An AoO is triggered by an action being called and so interrupts it before that action is resolvedi.e. during the action.
They can't take place "before" the action that triggers them otherwise what would trigger them?
They absolutely can take place before the action that triggers them because that is what the rules say happens except for the exception that proves the rule - spell casting.
This is a game, broken up into individual units of time and actions of varying lengths. To make that work there has to be some form of order. AOO interrupt the normal order of turns allowing the attacker to act outside their turn. They don't interrupt half way through the resolution of the action they occur before the resolution of the action.
Incidentally defensive casting means spell asters really shouldn't be provoking.
.
Incidentally defensive casting means spell asters really shouldn't be provoking.
Usually 5 foot back and cast is the prefered method.
A caster with mirror image up , a high ac, stoneskin running, etc may be better off with an AoO and a possible concentration check than a guaranteed concentration check if there's nowhere to run and nowhere to hide
|
|
When you change words then yes, you can make the meaning fit what ever you would like.I think it hinges on how you interpret "resolved" in the FAQ. I believe a better interpretation is to treat it as a synonym for "finished". Consider:
I'm taking a move action to move from A to B via C. At point C I trigger an AoO from you and get shanked. That AoO is executed before I "resolve" my move action, but clearly, I'm not at point A anymore, because you didn't threaten me until I left space C. So this AoO doesn't happen entirely before my move action; it happens before the remainder of my move action. We do the AoO, then I resolve/finish moving.
And with that the Trip FAQ makes perfect sense. You can't achieve anything by tripping someone who hasn't finished standing up yet, because he's prone until he completes his standing-up action. Once he's finished standing up, he's not provoking anymore.
So with that, there's no difference between spells and other AoOs in when they happen.
I'm not changing the words, I'm choosing a different interpretation that is equally valid but makes more sense.
And I completely disagree that the trip FAQ makes perfect sense with your changing of the words. If you are attempting to stand up, I can easily pull out which ever limb is supporting you while you are doing it, dropping you right back to prone. There is no reason why anyone would ever wait until you stood up fully before putting you back down. If it happened DURING your attempt to stand up, you would not get up.
But because it happens BEFORE your attempt to get up (in the game mechanics) then you can still get up. The rule doesn't even say that tripping you is not allowed, it says that there is no gain from doing so because you get up AFTER the trip.
Or to quote the FAQ again:
"Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up."
Until you've finished standing up, you're prone. Tripping you again doesn't make you more prone. That's why tripping someone who's in the process of standing up doesn't work.
if you're high enough level to just assume stoneskin is running, the guaranteed concentration check should be basically auto-pass.
This came up a LOT on our eyes of 10 run...
at 13th level With a fairly pumped caster stat, I can auto pass up to 4th level spells but needed to roll for 5th and 6th level ones. Which is REALLY annoying when you'd like to cast the 5th and 6th level ones...
Unless it's a touch spell such as Shocking Grasp, yes.
Thats when you cast from the safety of way the heck in the back, walk up, THEN touch. (in the same round)
|
When the troll gets in my sorcerer's face (especially if I'm playing one who's not suicidal enough to enter a berzerker rage and try EATING the troll during combat) I'd rather do the defensive cast shocking grasp (or other touch spell) then move back. Unless I have a good ranged spell of higher level like scorching ray. In which case step back and try to incinerate the troll.
They absolutely can take place before the action that triggers them because that is what the rules say happens except for the exception that proves the rule - spell casting.This is a game, broken up into individual units of time and actions of varying lengths. To make that work there has to be some form of order. AOO interrupt the normal order of turns allowing the attacker to act outside their turn. They don't interrupt half way through the resolution of the action they occur before the resolution of the action.
Incidentally defensive casting means spell asters really shouldn't be provoking.
Can you cite where the rules say "They absolutely can take place before the action that triggers them.."?
I can only find bits which say "before the action that triggers them resolves" (which you go on to say yourself). Which isn't the same thing at all.
I mean how is what you are saying different from what I am saying?
We're on difficult ground I have a Guisarme you're 5' away, it's your turn. You state you are moving into base to base, I say wahoo AoO and leg you up thus preventing you from resolving the action that triggers the AoO. You fall over 5' away and have used a movement action. Yes? The AoO interrupts the action that triggers it before said action is resolved.
Or if the AoO happens before the triggering action - You fall over 5' away but still have a full round action...how does that make sense?