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First of all, this post is for natural weapons, not unarmed strikes. There are several discussions about unarmed strikes, and this is not one of them, so please steer clear of them.
Let's say I have two claw attacks, Power Attack, Feral Combat Training (claws) and Dragon Style. Does my first claw attack benefit from -1\+3 PA? What if I have Dragon Ferocity? Do I then get -1\+3 to both attacks?
It's my opinion that the answer is yes to all, but I am biased, and I can see it argued that the claws aren't really 1.5 STR weapons, even if they do get 1.5 STR to damage.
I would say that by the text of Power Attack, the weapon itself has to be a 1.5xSTR weapon. If Power Attack said "a primary natural attack that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier" then it would work, no question. But since it says that the actual weapon must have that property - rather than just a given attack with that weapon - I don't think it technically works.
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Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
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It says exactly that.
It says exactly that....
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
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What I mean is that to me, the phrase "a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your strength modifier on damage rolls" indicates that the weapon itself needs to be of a kind that adds 1.5xSTR to meet the condition described by Power Attack. A weapon that deals 1xSTR being used with a feat that modifies an attack to deal 1.5xSTR is still not a weapon that deals 1.5xSTR; it's a weapon that deals 1xSTR being used with a feat that modifies attacks made with it. It's one of the issues with unarmed strike as well; Dragon Style/Ferocity doesn't take away your 1xSTR weapon and give you a new 1.5xSTR one.
This is exactly why I want a discussion. The whole issue hangs on one word in a feat from 3.5 in the Core Rulebook. This is as semantic grey area as it gets. If you look at the language in Dragon Style
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.Normal: You cannot charge or run through difficult terrain, and you cannot charge through a square that contains an ally. With an unarmed strike, you usually add your Strength bonus on damage rolls.
This mirrors the text in PA, which leads me to think DS does apply to it. DF is less clear to me, since it lacks this specific language, although one could argue that stems from it being redundant to repeat the text in it's prerequisite.
De Bump
No, he's saying, if you use FCT to make dragon style work for your Claws, do those upgrade to 1.5PA since they are primary Natural attacks and they are now doing 1.5 str.
Dire Tiger Str 27: Melee 2 claws +18 (2d4+8 plus grab)
If we look at the example above, a Dire Tigers claws are not a x1.5str weapon. They are a x1str and therefore PA = -1/+2
BUT when using Dragon Style your 1rst attack is now x1.5str and therefore PA=-1/+3 for that first attack
and once you get Dragon Ferocity you'll have x1.5str or better on all your attacks with Feral Combat Training(Claws)
seems pretty simple to me
Your claws are now a primary attack(they always have been) and they now have a x1.5str modifier. So they get PA -1/+3
That's the way we interpret it. And unless someone can point out where it has been ruled against, it seems to be the simplest ruling without torturing the English language KISS
Why are you spouting random stuff that is also incorrect?
We're not flurrying, flurry nor monk has been mentioned in this thread.
And Dragon Style gives you extra STR damage, even when you flurry.
FCT to make dragon style work for your Claws, do those upgrade to 1.5PA since they are primary Natural attacks and they are now doing 1.5 str.Well it wouldn't be 1.5 STR, since it is Flurry and that is only ever 1.0 STR in Flurry.
Sigh! Are you saying that Dragon Style, a style created primarily for monks, would not work for them?
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This is an all-too-common case of rules ambiguity. The intention is almost certainly that dragon style/ferocity represent stand-alone bonuses that scale with strength and don't interact with other rules and/or feats.
However, if you read the rules like a lawyer, the natural weapon is indeed at 1.5* to strength and thus would get -1/+3 from PA. Do note that if you go down this route, the first attack from dragon ferocity would only get -1/+2 from PA since that attack gets 2* from strength, which is not 1.5* (it does not say 1.5* or greater).
Personally, I dodge this issue entirely with a house rule that locks PA to the same multiplier as strength no matter where that comes from. A boost for martials, to be sure, but that's fine and avoids weird edge cases.
Given that most strength-based characters have at least a +4 strength mod by the time they'd have dragon ferocity, that alone puts the feat on par with weapon specialization (unarmed strike). Between that and the additional benefits, I'd say it's best to take the conservative approach here and leave power attack at -1/+2 (which is likely the intended interpretation anyway). Otherwise you're looking at a single feat easily being worth 2-3 feats.
I truly don't think the intention is certain in this situation, nor think this is a rule-lawyering situation. It is a corner case that requires seven feats to get to, and even more investment to make optimal (since it means you're taking a natural attacks route to combat), and as one it needs some consideration before deciding how it works. Since the language in DS is almost word for word the language in power attack, I believe it is the most logical conclusion that it works.
As for the question of the first attack, a multiplier of 2 is inclusive of 1.5, since power attack doesn't say exactly 1.5 either and inclusivity is the default when it comes to qualifications.
As for how many feats it's worth, again, this route needs a total of seven feats, with IUS, Stunning Fist and Feral Combat Training not doing much for the character.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Sigh! Are you saying that Dragon Style, a style created primarily for monks, would not work for them?
No I'm saying he wouldn't get 1.5 STR from it being Primary if he Flurried because a Flurry is 1.0 STR.
It doesn't really matter, there is enough ambiguity in this that all of this boils down to "Ask your GM" anyway tho.
Another issue the OP might not be aware, is there was a FAQ or Errata on Dragon Style. So he may or may not be using the most recent wording.
Sigh! Are you saying that Dragon Style, a style created primarily for monks, would not work for them?No I'm saying he wouldn't get 1.5 STR from it being Primary if he Flurried because a Flurry is 1.0 STR.
It doesn't really matter, there is enough ambiguity in this that all of this boils down to "Ask your GM" anyway tho.
Another issue the OP might not be aware, is there was a FAQ or Errata on Dragon Style. So he may or may not be using the most recent wording.
This 100% incorrect. Dragon Style specifically gives +1/2 str bonus to UA and can be used with a flurry.
That being said, DS is only a damage bonus. It doesn't make the UA attack or natural attack an inherent 1.5 str attack for +3dam PA. A fist doesn't turn into the equivalent of a 2 hand weapon either.
This really is up to the GM, but I personally would have to say no at my table.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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This 100% incorrect. Dragon Style specifically gives +1/2 str bonus to UA and can be used with a flurry.
This thread has two issues:
DS and the 1.5 related to the Primary natural weapon.Dragon Ferocity should read "While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks" and Tiger Claws should read "If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, increase your Strength bonus on one of the damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, normally to a total of 1-1/2 your Strength bonus." These changes will be reflected in future errata.
This is the current.
It increases not adds for ferocity, so that's why it would work
This 100% incorrect. Dragon Style specifically gives +1/2 str bonus to UA and can be used with a flurry.This thread has two issues:
DS and the 1.5 related to the Primary natural weapon.Dragon Ferocity should read "While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks" and Tiger Claws should read "If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, increase your Strength bonus on one of the damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, normally to a total of 1-1/2 your Strength bonus." These changes will be reflected in future errata.This is the current.
I have seen the current wording. They added it before the change to FCT, I think to prevent using primary natural weapons, etc..., from becoming 2x str when that wasn't intended. Also there were arguments over 1.5x + .5x or whether the damage was 2x. Even though the total damage is 1.5x it is still 1/2 str bonus rather than inherent change in attack type. I can't see how it can affect PA.
Because it uses the exact same wording needed for power attack:
...or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
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...you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll...
And I don't really understand how the FAQ wording of DS prevents use with natural weapons.
As for the increase being a "real" increase or just a damage increase, I would equate it to wielding a one-handed weapon two-handed. By using the natural weapon differently, with DS, it's properties change.
So when using DS does your fist become a 2 handed weapon?
So when using DS does your fist become a 2 handed weapon?Do you have any rule like the one in Horn of the Criosphinx or anything saying that?
Or are you just asserting that if dealing 1.5 STR it must be two handed?
The question was rhetorical. DS doesn't make your hand into a 2h weapon and give it -1/+3 from PA, nor does it give a natural attack that was 1x str normally a -1/+3 PA.
This thread isn't about US at all. So please stop bringing that up.
This thread is saying if you have a claw, that new does 1.5 str because of DS or DF, would it get +3PA.
Yes, it's a primary natural attack that is getting 1.5 str bonus on the attack. That's all that PA cares about.
As Chess Pwn said, PA has a clause,which was quoted several times in this thread, that says that a primary natural weapon that adds 1.5xSTR to damage gets -1/+3. Please read my previous post again.
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Yes, if you have a primary natural weapon that adds 1.5*STR, it can use the enhanced power attack damage.
A monk unarmed strike never qualifies as a primary natural weapon, nor does it ever count as two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, so it does not apply the enhanced power attack damage.
Any other natural weapon, such as claws, bite, slam, wing buffet, tentacle, talons, hooves, or a white-haired-witch's hair would be able to gain the bonus, as long as it was a primary natural weapon and did 1.5*STR damage.
No one is talking about US, please stop bringing it up. I know the discussion on how US it works under these conditions is a heated one, so I opened this thread to discuss natural weapons only.
Of course the subject does have FCT, the discussion is meaningless otherwise.
No one is talking about US, please stop bringing it up. I know the discussion on how US it works under these conditions is a heated one, so I opened this thread to discuss natural weapons only.
But ... but something something unrelated comment about unarmed strike!
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No one is talking about US, please stop bringing it up. I know the discussion on how US it works under these conditions is a heated one, so I opened this thread to discuss natural weapons only.But ... but something something unrelated comment about unarmed strike!
You convinced me ;)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Of course the subject does have FCT, the discussion is meaningless otherwise.
But the subject is using FCT without doing a Flurry? He is simply making two claw attacks as any other PC/NPC/Monster would with a set of claws?
Because if he isn't flurring, then I don't have an issue with the Claw being considered a primary natural weapon at the normal 1.5 STR modifier.
The thing is the claw attacks, from draconic bloodrager for example, often get only 1xSTR. By taking FCT and DS you then get 1.5xSTR to damage for the first attack. The question is does this increase make the attack qualify for PA -1/+3, and how does Dragon Ferocity affect the situation.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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draconic bloodrager for example, often get only 1xSTR. By taking FCT and DS you then get 1.5xSTR to damage for the first attack. The question is does this increase make the attack qualify for PA -1/+3, and how does Dragon Ferocity affect the situation.
That isn't what is being argued in this thread, instead we are focusing on a whole lot of other stuff.
If it only gets 1.0 STR, it isn't Primary and DS/DF don't make it primary despite adding 0.5 STR.
With a very friendly GM that could perhaps work.
It´s a bit wonky though and due to the language of dragon style and ferocity as well as power attack, i would say RAW it doesn´t work.
Power Attack talks about a primary natural attack which adds 1.5 STR, dragon style kind of let´s you do that, but only while you use the style.
However it´s still the style which does that and you don´t really have a primary natural attack with a 1.5 STR modifier.
For PFS, i would assume it doesn´t work and expect a lot of (mainly negative) table variation.
draconic bloodrager for example, often get only 1xSTR. By taking FCT and DS you then get 1.5xSTR to damage for the first attack. The question is does this increase make the attack qualify for PA -1/+3, and how does Dragon Ferocity affect the situation.That isn't what is being argued in this thread, instead we are focusing on a whole lot of other stuff.
If it only gets 1.0 STR, it isn't Primary and DS/DF don't make it primary despite adding 0.5 STR.
That´s untrue in some cases at least. Tengu have the alternate racial trait claw attack, giving them 2 claw attacks which are treated as primary natural weapons. Primary natural attacks add only 1 time STR modifier unless otherwise noted. So a tengu´s claw attacks qualify.
Universal Monster Rules Natural Attacks.
Looking at the feat tax you pay i think i would actually allow that in a home game. It´s not stronger than other options or OP as far as i can see.
draconic bloodrager for example, often get only 1xSTR. By taking FCT and DS you then get 1.5xSTR to damage for the first attack. The question is does this increase make the attack qualify for PA -1/+3, and how does Dragon Ferocity affect the situation.That isn't what is being argued in this thread, instead we are focusing on a whole lot of other stuff.
If it only gets 1.0 STR, it isn't Primary and DS/DF don't make it primary despite adding 0.5 STR.
It's kinda rude to tell the OP that his OP question isn't what's supposed to be discussed in the thread.
And you really need to pay attention to what is being asked.
If you have 3 primary natural attacks, claw,claw, bite. You then take FCT in claws AND have dragon style and dragon ferocity do you get +3 PA on your claws. And the answer is yes. They are primary natural attacks that are adding 1.5 str.
draconic bloodrager for example, often get only 1xSTR. By taking FCT and DS you then get 1.5xSTR to damage for the first attack. The question is does this increase make the attack qualify for PA -1/+3, and how does Dragon Ferocity affect the situation.That isn't what is being argued in this thread, instead we are focusing on a whole lot of other stuff.
If it only gets 1.0 STR, it isn't Primary and DS/DF don't make it primary despite adding 0.5 STR.
It's kinda rude to tell the OP that his OP question isn't what's supposed to be discussed in the thread.
And you really need to pay attention to what is being asked.
If you have 3 primary natural attacks, claw,claw, bite. You then take FCT in claws AND have dragon style and dragon ferocity do you get +3 PA on your claws. And the answer is yes. They are primary natural attacks that are adding 1.5 str.
No. They are primary attacks that add 1.0xstr, with .5xstr from DS. DS doesn't change the nature of the natural attack, just like it doesn't turn a fist into a 2h weapon.
you're reading it wrong
you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll
increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of double your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the other attacks
primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
So my claw with dragon style is adding 1.5 str and is a primary natural attack. It now works for power attack. I am not adding 1 str and then an extra .5 str worth of damage.
Same with ferocity, my base was increased to 1.5 so all attacks are 1.5 str and primary.
2h weapon is a category, adding 1.5 str isn't
Chess, your argument is strong and if the current printing were the first and only printing then I would agree with you. The primary reason I don't agree is because this is a clarification of the 1st printing that showed the intent of feat was to add a damage bonus rather than create an inherent change in the nature attack (be it fist or claw).
This is one of those that will come down to the whim of your GM.
no, because it was errata'd to this way that shows that the intent wasn't coming across so they had to re-write it to fit more in line with what they intended.
And intent or not, it's clearly what it does. So like rage-cycling, it's there and works.
No. It is a damage increase not a change in the type of natural attack. Your GM will need to tell you how PA interacts with it.
Is is a primary natural attack? Yes.
Does it add 1.5x strength mod to damage? Yes.
Personally, I find debates on things like whether 1.5x is the same as 1x + .5x to be a bit too hair-splitting for my tastes.
No. It is a damage increase not a change in the type of natural attack. Your GM will need to tell you how PA interacts with it.
You're correct, the claw attack is still a claw attack, it doesn't change the type of natural attack.
But lets take bite. Lets say you have claws and a bite. Bite deals 1 str. But dragons have a special ability that lets their bites do 1.5 str. Do their bites only have +2 power attack? since bite is normally a 1 str natural attack? OR does it do +3 since they are adding 1.5 str to their bite?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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you're reading it wrong
So my claw with dragon style is adding 1.5 str and is a primary natural attack. It now works for power attack.
If that is what you are saying, then you are absolutely positively unquestionably wrong in my view of RAW.
It wouldn't be debatable if I were at a table.
DS/DF doesn't change the base value and Power Attack is written with the base value in mind.
I'm good with your view and I'm good with you saying it is RAW. But I don't and won't follow that view of RAW.
you're reading it wrong
So my claw with dragon style is adding 1.5 str and is a primary natural attack. It now works for power attack.If that is what you are saying, then you are absolutely positively unquestionably wrong in my view of RAW.
It wouldn't be debatable if I were at a table.
DS/DF doesn't change the base value and Power Attack is written with the base value in mind.
I'm good with your view and I'm good with you saying it is RAW. But I don't and won't follow that view of RAW.
dragons have a special ability that lets their bites do 1.5 str. Do their bites only have +2 power attack? since bite is normally a 1 str natural attack? OR does it do +3 since they are adding 1.5 str to their bite?
If a dragon's bite is naturally 1.5xstr, something is being said about the kind of attack that it naturally is. Adding more damage from a feat doesn't change the kind of attack that it is. As I said, if this wasn't an update of a previous FAQ, correcting some other confusion, I would be inclined to agree with your reading of PA. However we know this is additional damage not fundamental change in the base attack.
Your reading is in no way RAI, but your DM may allow it.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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dragons have a special ability that lets their bites do 1.5 str. Do their bites only have +2 power attack?
Yes obviously, of course.
The distinction, that I guess you are genuinely having trouble with, is that is a primary natural weapon that does 1.5 STR with no other abilities, items, or interactions.
I'd also say yes to an ability that says "Your bite now does 1.5 STR and is a primary natural weapon", which DS/DF doesn't do.
That's exactly what DS/DF is doing.
Your claws are primary.
DS is letting you add 1.5 damage on your first claw.
It is now a claw (primary natural weapon) that is adding 1.5 str to the damage.
DF is increasing your str bonus on claw (a primary natural weapon) damage rolls by .5 to 2 str and 1.5 str. THIS IS INCREASING THE BASE AMOUNT YOU ADD TO DAMAGE ROLLS. IT'S A CLAW THAT NOW DOES 1.5 STR AND IT IS STILL A PRIMARY NATURAL ATTACK.
Power attack says that if it's a "primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls" it does +3.
My claws are primary natural attacks that are adding 1.5 str to damage rolls.
With DF active my claws are naturally doing 1.5 str on damage rolls.
What rule support do you have to say that because for other people it's 1 str for you, even though it's now 1.5, it's still 1 for PA?