Druid spellcasting


Rules Questions


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Can a druid in animal form via her wild shape ability cast spells?


If they have the feat Natural Spell, yes.


If you can provide all the components, yes. Verbal will usually fail because animals aren't exactly talking creatures, somatic will fail unless you're an unusually dextrous thing such as an ape, focus/divine focus/material require you to have the materials/focus on hand, which disappear into your body when you wildshape. Natural Spell circumvents all of these.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I might have known that it would require a feat — and that there would be one for it. Thanks, folks.

Scarab Sages

Ed Reppert wrote:
I might have known that it would require a feat — and that there would be one for it. Thanks, folks.

Natural spell works, but there are other ways too.

You can use metamagic feats to remove the components of the spell that you lack in wild shape.

Eschew Materials is also a good option for casting while transformed.

There are also a few druid archetypes that gain additional wild shape forms which would be able to cast normally while transformed (though you'd still need eschew materials because your gear melds into your form). The Naga Aspirant specifically can, while you could make a sound arguement for a Mountain Druid using the giant shape option of her wild shape.

Multi-classing could also yield good results. The Oracle already has some nifty curse options to remove spell component requirements.

Scarab Sages

If you want to avoid the natural spell feat, a Polymorphic Pouch will allow access to material/focus components, and a Ring of Eloquence will allow you to use verbal components and speak.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
I might have known that it would require a feat — and that there would be one for it. Thanks, folks.

Natural spell works, but there are other ways too.

You can use metamagic feats to remove the components of the spell that you lack in wild shape.

Eschew Materials is also a good option for casting while transformed.

There are also a few druid archetypes that gain additional wild shape forms which would be able to cast normally while transformed (though you'd still need eschew materials because your gear melds into your form). The Naga Aspirant specifically can, while you could make a sound arguement for a Mountain Druid using the giant shape option of her wild shape.

Multi-classing could also yield good results. The Oracle already has some nifty curse options to remove spell component requirements.

Eschew Materials don't remove the need to use Divine Focuses, and a good number of druid spells require them.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
If you want to avoid the natural spell feat, a Polymorphic Pouch will allow access to material/focus components, and a Ring of Eloquence will allow you to use verbal components and speak.

Interesting. Without hands, though, how do you get into the pouch?


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
I might have known that it would require a feat — and that there would be one for it. Thanks, folks.

Natural spell works, but there are other ways too.

You can use metamagic feats to remove the components of the spell that you lack in wild shape.

Eschew Materials is also a good option for casting while transformed.

There are also a few druid archetypes that gain additional wild shape forms which would be able to cast normally while transformed (though you'd still need eschew materials because your gear melds into your form). The Naga Aspirant specifically can, while you could make a sound arguement for a Mountain Druid using the giant shape option of her wild shape.

Multi-classing could also yield good results. The Oracle already has some nifty curse options to remove spell component requirements.

Why would I spent another feat for something Natural Spell already provides for?

Esp at higher levels when the duration is long enough I always enjoy moving around in elemental form for its upped utility.

Ruyan.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
I might have known that it would require a feat — and that there would be one for it. Thanks, folks.

Natural spell works, but there are other ways too.

You can use metamagic feats to remove the components of the spell that you lack in wild shape.

Eschew Materials is also a good option for casting while transformed.

There are also a few druid archetypes that gain additional wild shape forms which would be able to cast normally while transformed (though you'd still need eschew materials because your gear melds into your form). The Naga Aspirant specifically can, while you could make a sound arguement for a Mountain Druid using the giant shape option of her wild shape.

Multi-classing could also yield good results. The Oracle already has some nifty curse options to remove spell component requirements.

Eschew Materials don't remove the need to use Divine Focuses, and a good number of druid spells require them.

Shrug. Natural Spell takes care of all your issues; I'm not sure why we're trying to cobble together a poor substitute. The answer to the OP's question is "yes."

Scarab Sages

Ed Reppert wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
If you want to avoid the natural spell feat, a Polymorphic Pouch will allow access to material/focus components, and a Ring of Eloquence will allow you to use verbal components and speak.
Interesting. Without hands, though, how do you get into the pouch?

Magic. The item specifically says the user can access items in the pouch while in non-humanoid forms. It just works.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
RuyanVe wrote:
Why would I spent another feat for something Natural Spell already provides for?

It's a fair question. I suppose the answer would very much depend on your character build.

The two obvious answers are:

1) You intend to polymorph via other sources (like spells), and that Natural Spell only applies to uses of Wild Shape.

2) Your druid doesn't have wisdom 13...


Elementals can take humanoid form and speak. Fire elementals probably cannot wear spell component pouches, but the others should be able to. Earth certainly is entirely solid and should have no trouble using a spell component pouch.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
The Naga Aspirant specifically can, while you could make a sound arguement for a Mountain Druid using the giant shape option of her wild shape.

This is partially true. Wild shape uses the polymorph rules, polymorph specifically lists what shapes heave their gear meld.

Paizo PRD wrote:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.

Giants are humanoids, your gear does not meld. I am running a Goliath Druid as a tank built around this fact.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
2) Your druid doesn't have wisdom 13...

You only need WIS 12 to access all your 4th level Druid class features, but that's like saying you only need a 10 point buy to be a Core monk. It's technically possible, but nobody ever said it was a good idea.


My Self wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
2) Your druid doesn't have wisdom 13...
You only need WIS 12 to access all your 4th level Druid class features, but that's like saying you only need a 10 point buy to be a Core monk. It's technically possible, but nobody ever said it was a good idea.

I think they're referring to the fact that Natural Spell requires 13 Wisdom as a prerequisite.


Elementals are a bit too fluid and formless to plausibly and reliably utilize fine components. Giants probably could, though.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Elementals are a bit too fluid and formless to plausibly and reliably utilize fine components. Giants probably could, though.

There is no "plausibly", I quoted the rules, giant form does not cause your equipment to meld, neither does any other humanoid form, or monstrous humanoid. Or undead forms for that fact, but I could see how some undead forms make sense to have your gear meld.


Are you saying giants couldn't or could? I'm a bit unclear here.


Atarlost wrote:
Elementals can take humanoid form and speak. Fire elementals probably cannot wear spell component pouches, but the others should be able to. Earth certainly is entirely solid and should have no trouble using a spell component pouch.

One of my favorite approaches, actually. But before going on about that, better address

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Elementals are a bit too fluid and formless to plausibly and reliably utilize fine components. Giants probably could, though.

And where is that? Are they incorporeal? No? Then they can touch items. The only question is whether they have hands.

But the subtype allows them to use weapons if they are humanoid in shape. Transmutation doesn't give you the subtype, but the subtype does generally indicate hands (which is the required bit for spellcasting in a different form- which is in the transmutation rules).

So an elemental can hold weapons, use components...heck, even wear armor since there is no rule excluding them from using such items.

The only problem with using elementals is that they are low-rent goliath druids- they get similar effects, but they don't get the advnatage of having their equipment scale up. Not a deal breaker, necessarily- you can shift for hours per day, so you could get properly sized equipment and just put it on in the morning.

Basically, for those that liked goliath druid for a single, highly effective form, but wanted maybe earthglide, or flight as well. Harder to use utility forms like birds, but eh- large sized reach and great-sword damage on spears or a large sized scimitar. Simpler upkeep than AoMF, and reach builds as an option.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Are you saying giants couldn't or could? I'm a bit unclear here.

Sorry for being unclear, Giants are humanoids, their gear does not meld, but does change size with the. Giant form allows you to be a full caster, performing all necessary components for casting any spell.


lemeres wrote:
And where is that? Are they incorporeal? No? Then they can touch items. The only question is whether they have hands.

I'm coming at this from a "as a GM" side, not a "gon' win a RAW debate" side.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
lemeres wrote:
And where is that? Are they incorporeal? No? Then they can touch items. The only question is whether they have hands.
I'm coming at this from a "as a GM" side, not a "gon' win a RAW debate" side.

Still, by the same logic, weapons shouldn't work on anything other than earth elementals.


Tindalen wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Are you saying giants couldn't or could? I'm a bit unclear here.
Sorry for being unclear, Giants are humanoids, their gear does not meld, but does change size with the. Giant form allows you to be a full caster, performing all necessary components for casting any spell.

Ah. Then yeah, if it grows your items, you're fine. Giant works.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Not everyone agrees that Elementals can automatically cast. Generally speaking if the creature has a language it can use Verbal components. Somatic components depend on having a free hand. Just because something is humanoid looking doesn't mean they have the manual dexterity to cast spells. For Elementals the descriptions says stuff like:

Stony Humanoid Appearance
Shapes more akin to humans
Vaguely Humanoid with wave arms

Generally Humanoid can wield weapons.
Proficient with armor in their description or not at all.

It can be argued that just because something is roughly humanoid doesn't mean they can cast Somatic components. I would check with your GM. In PFS you are likely to encounter table variation until either the PDT or Tonya or John or Linda make a ruling.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Mountain druids with the Plant/Growth domain that focus on manufactured weapons (i.e., scimitar) can do quite well (swift action enlarge as a domain power, enlarge person and righteous might as domain spells); even before gaining the giant form I version of wild shape at 12th level.


Taenia wrote:

Generally Humanoid can wield weapons.

Proficient with armor in their description or not at all.

It can be argued that just because something is roughly humanoid doesn't mean they can cast Somatic components. I would check with your GM. In PFS you are likely to encounter table variation until either the PDT or Tonya or John or Linda make a ruling.

Its hands are humanoid enough to hold weapons, but not humanoid enough to do jazz hands?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Yes, consider mitten or locked gauntlet like hands or even ones with limited differentiation that only allow a simply grip.


Taenia wrote:
Yes, consider mitten or locked gauntlet like hands or even ones with limited differentiation that only allow a simply grip.

Still, those are explicit mechanics that ruin one's hands.

This is houseruling just to cripple one of the few druid paths that are not 'I turn into a tiger and pounce'.

What next? You speak a language, but you have a weird accent so you can't cast any verbal components?


lemeres wrote:
Taenia wrote:
Yes, consider mitten or locked gauntlet like hands or even ones with limited differentiation that only allow a simply grip.

Still, those are explicit mechanics that ruin one's hands.

This is houseruling just to cripple one of the few druid paths that are not 'I turn into a tiger and pounce'.

What next? You speak a language, but you have a weird accent so you can't cast any verbal components?

I would say it is more along the lines of, if you do not have enough anatomy to be sneak attacked, why should you have enough anatomy to do fine manipulation of spell components.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

You are also assuming that what you say is RAW and mine is a house rule. I am saying that RAW is not clear and it could be either way so some GMs might rule one way or the other, both having a reasonable argument for RAW.

Scarab Sages

Hubaris wrote:
My Self wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
2) Your druid doesn't have wisdom 13...
You only need WIS 12 to access all your 4th level Druid class features, but that's like saying you only need a 10 point buy to be a Core monk. It's technically possible, but nobody ever said it was a good idea.
I think they're referring to the fact that Natural Spell requires 13 Wisdom as a prerequisite.

Correct, Natural spell requires Wis 13. So if, for some reason, you built a druid without wis 13+, you'd need to find another route.

I did include the "..." because I think it's doubtful you'll ever see a druid with such low Wis, but as mentioned, it would depend on your build.


Of course, if you only have a 12 Wisdom, what spells will you really be casting that will be worth it? ;D

Scarab Sages

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Of course, if you only have a 12 Wisdom, what spells will you really be casting that will be worth it? ;D

The Druid is a pretty varied class in terms of roles it can function in. Although I'm unsure offhand, I bet you could find a build that a 5 wisdom druid could excel in.

Though, likely, a druid with that low wisdom is a multi-class character.


Taenia wrote:
You are also assuming that what you say is RAW and mine is a house rule. I am saying that RAW is not clear and it could be either way so some GMs might rule one way or the other, both having a reasonable argument for RAW.

Well, there isn't raw either way, since the system was written mainly with the assumption of humans, elves, etc- core races. Rules always get wonky when you deal with nonhumanoids.

But I will say that 'hands work like hands' has more basis (in that it is a basic assumption that applies to most humanoids-which the system is built around) than a strange distinction between hand types that is not written anywhere for creatures. The only cited examples are items specifically binding your hands.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Of course, if you only have a 12 Wisdom, what spells will you really be casting that will be worth it? ;D

The Druid is a pretty varied class in terms of roles it can function in. Although I'm unsure offhand, I bet you could find a build that a 5 wisdom druid could excel in.

Though, likely, a druid with that low wisdom is a multi-class character.

Gorumite druid that turns into a tiger in fullplate. Can't cast, but gets their AC fairly high compared to most druids that haven't bought wild armor.

You are a natural attacker with nice saves, some skills, and ability to sue some wands without UMD. Hardly the worst character I've seen. ...but lets not make this a 'rogue' thing....


The whole point of Natural Spell is that it allows you to have spells, though. I'm not sure, but I don't think the 5 Wis druid is gonna be looking for a way to mimic it. ;)

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Druid spellcasting All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.