RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Is this how this works?
"If you don't like the answer, hide all evidence that the question was asked"? No, I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.
If anything, this thread is useful to novice GMs to reaffirm that yes, they are allowed to put a stop to disruptive behavior at their tables.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Basically it is what you are required to do. If the requirements are easy the DM can waive it. If nto they can make you do it. Some obediences cost money or resources to do. Thus you provide them.Indeed.
Any GM is well within his rights to rule that Zon-Kuthon's obedience deals hit point damage, or that Urgathoa's or Rovagug's costs a substantial amount of money per day, or that Norgorber's causes your character to be permanently removed (following the rules on Alignment Infractions in the PFS Organized Play guide).
It is also worth noting that if the obedience requires illegal acts, the player should have some reasonable explanation of how they plan to get away with them without getting caught. They don't need to be roleplayed, as long as the player has a reasonable plan I would probably just let it proceed. But if the are carelessly or blatantly commiting illegal acts, there are sometimes consequences
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The interesting point is that PFS banned only the Lamashtu obedience, so they must have envisioned non-disruptive ways for players to accomplish the other obediences.
As I recall from threads about slaves, it appears to be legal to own slaves in PFS. A character performing an obedience to Asmodeus or Zon-Kuthon can presumably torture one of his slaves with impunity. The follower of Zon-Kuthon has more flexibility here, as he can ask any fellow PC who objects if he wants to take the slave's place. If slave ownership in PFS is ever banned, then the obedience to Asmodeus would become impossible and the one to Zon-Kuthon would become risky (as you cannot count on a fellow PC agreeing to help with this obedience).
The obedience to Norgorber ultimately requires using up one dose of poison and recklessly creating a hazard that most likely will not come into play in a PFS scenario.
The obedience to Rovagug costs at least 10 GP each time it is done.
The obedience to Urgathoa can probably be handwaved, since no stats are given for the cost of the meal or the risks of the rotten food you eat at the end of the meal.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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A character performing an obedience to Asmodeus or Zon-Kuthon can presumably torture one of his slaves with impunity.
Legal impunity, in some places, yes, in others, no. (In Andoren???)
Moral impunity? No. If anything, torturing a slave who has no power to object is even more evil.
The obedience to Urgathoa can probably be handwaved, since no stats are given for the cost of the meal or the risks of the rotten food you eat at the end of the meal.
I'm not sure that's true. At very least if you are not eating enough rotten food that you need to make a fortitude save and have at least some minor consequence for failing, I don't see how you are doing the obedience.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The interesting point is that PFS banned only the Lamashtu obedience, so they must have envisioned non-disruptive ways for players to accomplish the other obediences.More likely, they envisioned that some creative player somewhere could envision a non-disruptive way to accomplish these obediences.
Alternately, they envisioned no possible way that Lamashtu's obedience could fail to be disruptive, and they decided to let the others through to see if people could be mature and handle them.
Note that even before this, Lamashtu has been singled out as uniquely disruptive, and many of her things (such as her mask) have been banned.
Developer
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Each of the deific obediences in Inner Sea Gods except Lamashtu's offers some means of commiting...let's call it a low-impact ritual. These are rituals that cause little to no direct harm to someone and can be roleplayed without noteworthy loss of sentient life, happiness, or dignity. Norgorber's faithful can bury secrets in a hole, Zon-Kuthon's can pray atop chains, and the blood Asmodeus so appreciates can come from the priest himself. Urgathoa's elite can feast upon food both rotting and fresh, and Rovagug's favorites can just break artwork.
Only Lamashtu requires the bloody, extended, and painful sacrifice of an unwilling creature—with no recourse for the less violent practitioners. There's just not a reasonable way to adapt this obedience to make the regular sacrifices non-evil, which in turn makes it not a good fit for the organized play campaign.
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Why are people concentrating on the Evil deities for pointing out problems with Deific Obedience?
Cayden (my favorite) requires you to buy a drink and sing a rowdy song... which could be hard in some places. (Cheliax I'm looking at you), And I'm not even pointing out the "leap boldly into the fight without hesitation" part. Are we hand waving this during the game? PCs getting into drunken brawls? Just part of worship.
Calistria - best left unsaid. But hard to do at most PFS tables...
Gozreh - how much does a set of wind-chimes cost? Can I "retrieve" them after using them to re-use them?
Nethys - Cast a spell... are you down one spell for the day? or are you assumed to cast a zero level one (would these count?)
Pharasma - "Collect small bones..." seesh. This is going to be odd...
Sarenrae - So, spend healing everyday. Or do you just offer and don't actually cast any healing spells... wait, you could use the Heal skill, good thing it usable untrained. I guess you could always assume "...you can't find a stranger who will accept your offer..."
Shelyn - I actually have a PC that does this during games. I "gift" the small artworks to other players - still waiting to see if anyone notices what I'm doing. But it doesn't actually require that I "burn game time" in doing it. I'm not using everyone elses game time...
etc.
my point is, it is possible to have problems with all of these, depending on the Judge and the situation. Mostly, we just hand-wave them. If they "add to the fun", then play them up. If they aren't fun, don't bother to even mention them...
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Each of the deific obediences in Inner Sea Gods except Lamashtu's offers some means of commiting...let's call it a low-impact ritual. These are rituals that cause little to no direct harm to someone and can be roleplayed without noteworthy loss of sentient life, happiness, or dignity. Norgorber's faithful can bury secrets in a hole, Zon-Kuthon's can pray atop chains, and the blood Asmodeus so appreciates can come from the priest himself. Urgathoa's elite can feast upon food both rotting and fresh, and Rovagug's favorites can just break artwork.
Only Lamashtu requires the bloody, extended, and painful sacrifice of an unwilling creature—with no recourse for the less violent practitioners. There's just not a reasonable way to adapt this obedience to make the regular sacrifices non-evil, which in turn makes it not a good fit for the organized play campaign.
I haven't looked at them all, but I'm not sure I agree with you about Norgorber. As I mentioned upthread, I actually looked at this one for my inquisitor of Norgorber, and the part about leaving a poison needle lying around where someone could accidentally prick themselves just seems too evil to work for me. Not to mention expensive. And is poison even available to buy in PFS? I haven't done a poison using PC, so I don't know all the rules, but I thought only certain classes could even acquire it.
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I've mentioned a few times before that I audit every character at my tables. Usually doesn't take more than 30 seconds to 2 minutes if there are no problems. Yes, I'm looking for glaringly obvious errors - underbought stats, failing to account for encumbrance, or things that I immediately recognize as not allowed for PFS play. In scenarios where such things matter I may be looking for one specific piece of information - how good the sense motive is, whether or not they have any Ioun stones orbiting their heads, or alignment might matter in some cases.
But I'm also looking for something to roleplay with that character, especially the quieter players. Who's their deity? Any unusual or defining traits? Are they carrying an intelligent item? Any class or feat that requires specific observances? So I'll probably role-play one day's worth of Obedience. Unless it's difficult to achieve it'll be hand-waved after that.
Why are people concentrating on the Evil deities for pointing out problems with Deific Obedience?
Cayden (my favorite) requires you to buy a drink and sing a rowdy song... which could be hard in some places. (Cheliax I'm looking at you), And I'm not even pointing out the "leap boldly into the fight without hesitation" part. Are we hand waving this during the game? PCs getting into drunken brawls? Just part of worship.
That one is only a problem if the scenario requires that the party's morning preparation be done quietly. If so, anyone doing the obedience to Cayden or to Gorum (among others) failed to keep their morning preparations quiet.
Calistria - best left unsaid. But hard to do at most PFS tables...
For that one, you can assume that no suitable willing partner is available and do the alternative version.
Gozreh - how much does a set of wind-chimes cost? Can I "retrieve" them after using them to re-use them?
I don't see an issue with retrieving the chimes. The only real issue is noise -- although you are not anywhere near as noisy as the Cayden or Gorum worshipers.
Nethys - Cast a spell... are you down one spell for the day? or are you assumed to cast a zero level one (would these count?)
I don't see any reason that a zero level spell wouldn't count. If you can't cast a zero level spell, then you would use up a resource to complete the obedience.
Pharasma - "Collect small bones..." seesh. This is going to be odd...
That one can probably be hand waved -- especially if your character eats chicken wings at every opportunity....
Sarenrae - So, spend healing everyday. Or do you just offer and don't actually cast any healing spells... wait, you could use the Heal skill, good thing it usable untrained. I guess you could always assume "...you can't find a stranger who will accept your offer..."
That one works as long as you are not adventuring underground for days at a time. I actually declined to create a worshiper of Sarenrae with the Deific Obedience feat because I knew our party was going to spend the next several months in the Darklands.
Shelyn - I actually have a PC that does this during games. I "gift" the small artworks to other players - still waiting to see if anyone notices what I'm doing. But it doesn't actually require that I "burn game time" in doing it. I'm not using everyone elses game time...
That one can be hand waved in the same manner as the obedience to Norgorber. It would be nice if some PFS scenario author wrote a scenario in which there could be actual consequences to doing either of these two obediences.
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my point is, all of them can actually be hand-waved - unless the judge/players feels some need to have them played out. This can be good (LOTS of RP opportunities in this) or bad (major time crunch, the players may get a feeling that the judge is "picking on them", the judge/other players may feel the player is trying to "troll the game"...).
So, let's use the fun part, hand-wave the un-fun and play some games!
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Developer
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You're right that the secret-burying process for Norgorber does involve leaving a poisonous needle for people—a process that isn't very nice and could cause harm. I can understand not wanting to use this obedience as a matter of personal preference, yet I don't think that it's disruptive enough to revisit the obedience's legality for the organized play program.
Based on my quick review of the other obediences, it looks like Rovagug is the only one that requires any listed expenditure of wealth to perform. Even then, it's 10 gp per use, which is pretty negligible for a level 3+ character playing in an episodic campaign. Compared to that, I don't see the need to charge Norgorber's faithful gold to buy the needle's poison (an order of magnitude more expensive than Rovagug's ritual). Consider it a negligible cost.
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You're right that the secret-burying process for Norgorber does involve leaving a poisonous needle for people—a process that isn't very nice and could cause harm. I can understand not wanting to use this obedience as a matter of personal preference, yet I don't think that it's disruptive enough to revisit the obedience's legality for the organized play program.
Based on my quick review of the other obediences, it looks like Rovagug is the only one that requires any listed expenditure of wealth to perform. Even then, it's 10 gp per use, which is pretty negligible for a level 3+ character playing in an episodic campaign. Compared to that, I don't see the need to charge Norgorber's faithful gold to buy the needle's poison (an order of magnitude more expensive than Rovagug's ritual). Consider it a negligible cost.
heck, just leave the needle in the Norgorber temple area... or the path leading to it or something like that. Traps left in an evil temple...
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Given that his worship is illegal in most Inner Sea nations, Norgorber doesn't have many temples. And for PFS, you're often traveling far from home.
Based on John saying that the poison is negligible, I guess that means the amount of poison left on the needle doesn't have to be a full dose. So even if someone does prick themselves with it, they won't really get hurt, which makes the act of leaving it lying around less evil. That's really the only justification I can see for letting this one work in PFS play.
I may have to revisit my decision not to take this feat for Julian now. It really would fit well for him, and the bonus to bluff would help him lie about being an inquisitor of Pharasma, when he's actually an inquisitor of Norgorber. I'll have to print out John's last response to bring with me if I do. Of course, Skill Focus: Bluff would also be good for helping with that lie, but not nearly as flavorful.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Just because most of these can be handwaved doesn't mean that every GM is required to handwave them.
However, note that skipping the obedience (e.g. because you're a Gorum worshipper and the scenario requires stealth) is completely not a big deal. You just lose the feat's bonus until the next day.
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Just because most of these can be handwaved doesn't mean that every GM is required to handwave them.
However, note that skipping the obedience (e.g. because you're a Gorum worshipper and the scenario requires stealth) is completely not a big deal. You just lose the feat's bonus until the next day.
Failing your obedience negates any levels of Exalted/Evangelist/Sentinel you have, right?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Failing your obedience negates any levels of Exalted/Evangelist/Sentinel you have, right?Just because most of these can be handwaved doesn't mean that every GM is required to handwave them.
However, note that skipping the obedience (e.g. because you're a Gorum worshipper and the scenario requires stealth) is completely not a big deal. You just lose the feat's bonus until the next day.
I've just checked, and yes it does.
Well, there are a few character concepts that, although legal, are impractical to actually play in Pathfinder Society. Turns out that an Evangelist of Norgorber, of all things, is one of those. Upon reflection it makes perfect sense that the goals of the church of Norgorber are in conflict with those of the Society, and hence getting too closely affiliated with the former may get you kicked out of the latter.
Pathfinder is a team game. If somebody wants to play a character that's borderline evil (or actually evil but calling it neutral because of some loophole), then he is not entitled to have the whole table accomodate that.
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Actually, I kinda disagree.
Like I said, I have an inquisitor of Norgorber, and I kinda ruled out the obedience when I looked at it a month ago. But John Compton's comments in this thread made me think that it could actually work. If all I have to do is leave a needle lying around with not enough poison to do any real damage, then that's slightly naughty, but not really evil.
And I just checked the book and looked at the evangelist prestige class specifically, even before you said it. That could work, too. In the end, I'm leaning towards sticking to single class inquisitor like I'd originally planned, but that decision is mostly for mechanical reasons.
And just to clarify again, my character's not evil pretending to be neutral because that's what it says on the character sheet. I actually do have a borderline evil PC in Society, but she's not religious. My inquisitor of Norgorber really is neutral.
He's a spy who gets a kick out of finding out people's secrets, so he worships the god of secrets. He joined the Society and plays along as a team player, because he really does want the Society to succeed, so that he gets access to all of their secrets. There's nothing even remotely evil about all that.
If I did go for the obedience, it would be more evil than the character really wants to be. But he would see it as giving in to his god's more mischievous side in order to show his loyalty and get more power. That could put him in borderline evil territory, but not in a disruptive way.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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If I did go for the obedience, it would be more evil than the character really wants to be. But he would see it as giving in to his god's more mischievous side in order to show his loyalty and get more power. That could put him in borderline evil territory, but not in a disruptive way.
It's already been said: If you want to play a character that's borderline evil (or actually evil but calling it neutral because of some loophole), then you are not entitled to have the whole table accomodate that.
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If I did go for the obedience, it would be more evil than the character really wants to be. But he would see it as giving in to his god's more mischievous side in order to show his loyalty and get more power. That could put him in borderline evil territory, but not in a disruptive way.It's already been said: If you want to play a character that's borderline evil (or actually evil but calling it neutral because of some loophole), then you are not entitled to have the whole table accomodate that.
I get it, you don't care for worshippers of evil deities, and you are entitled to your opinion. But, if Fromper's Norgorberite comes to a table, works with the party, and doesn't act in any sort of overtly evil fashion, then why punish him for something he hasn't done? I am all for evil acts being treated as such, but you just seem to want to come down harder than necessary.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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But, if Fromper's Norgorberite comes to a table, works with the party, and doesn't act in any sort of overtly evil fashion, then why punish him for something he hasn't done?
Well, because as several people have pointed out in this thread, performing deific obedience for certain evil deities (including Norgy) requires acting in an overtly evil fashion and is an evil act that should be treated as such.
"Hi fellow Pathfinderites! Please all look the other way while I follow this random peasant home and shank him, mm'kay? Totally not evil, I promise you!"
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Contributor
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But, if Fromper's Norgorberite comes to a table, works with the party, and doesn't act in any sort of overtly evil fashion, then why punish him for something he hasn't done?Well, because as several people have pointed out in this thread, performing deific obedience for certain evil deities (including Norgy) requires acting in an overtly evil fashion and is an evil act that should be treated as such.
Each of the deific obediences in Inner Sea Gods except Lamashtu's offers some means of commiting...let's call it a low-impact ritual. These are rituals that cause little to no direct harm to someone and can be roleplayed without noteworthy loss of sentient life, happiness, or dignity. Norgorber's faithful can bury secrets in a hole, Zon-Kuthon's can pray atop chains, and the blood Asmodeus so appreciates can come from the priest himself. Urgathoa's elite can feast upon food both rotting and fresh, and Rovagug's favorites can just break artwork.
Only Lamashtu requires the bloody, extended, and painful sacrifice of an unwilling creature—with no recourse for the less violent practitioners. There's just not a reasonable way to adapt this obedience to make the regular sacrifices non-evil, which in turn makes it not a good fit for the organized play campaign.
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"Hey ah, Bill, why ya whispering in to that there hole?"
"I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you afterwards"
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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While moving through a crowd of people (at least six individuals), whisper a prayer to Norgorber so quietly that no one hears you. If you suspect a member of the crowd heard you, you must follow that individual and prick her with a poisoned needle or other sharp implement. If you can’t locate a suitable crowd, dig a hole at least 6 inches deep in the ground, whisper your prayers into the hole, and bury the sound. At the end of your obedience, dip a needle in poison and leave it on a road, jutting from a windowsill, or anywhere else a passerby might inadvertently prick herself.
You can whisper in a hole only if you cannot locate a group of six people. Furthermore, doing so still requires you to poison a random passerby.
In any town, city, or village? (as in, pretty much every PFS scenario ever) Yeah, you have to do the public prayer, and if someone hears you, shank them.
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Contributor
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While moving through a crowd of people (at least six individuals), whisper a prayer to Norgorber so quietly that no one hears you. If you suspect a member of the crowd heard you, you must follow that individual and prick her with a poisoned needle or other sharp implement. If you can’t locate a suitable crowd, dig a hole at least 6 inches deep in the ground, whisper your prayers into the hole, and bury the sound. At the end of your obedience, dip a needle in poison and leave it on a road, jutting from a windowsill, or anywhere else a passerby might inadvertently prick herself.You can whisper in a hole only if you cannot locate a group of six people. Furthermore, doing so still requires you to poison a random passerby.
In any town, city, or village? (as in, pretty much every PFS scenario ever) Yeah, you have to do the public prayer, and if someone hears you, shank them.
You might want to bring that to Mr. Compton's attention, then, since he explicitly said it was a viable alternative in PFS. ^_^
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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For that matter, Zon-Kuthon's followers can only pray atop chains if they cannot locate a suitable individual. Since slavery is legal in Absalom, any priest that can afford a slave must (according to the obedience) torture the slave daily instead of praying atop chains.
And the obedience to Asmodeus spells out that the torture is to be done on "another creature—preferably an unwilling sentient", not on the priest himself. The writers of ISG are pretty obvious on the fact that dealing with evil gods can be pretty nasty.
Urgathoa and Rovagug I don't see a problem with, other than that they cost a small amount of money (which shouldn't be a problem given how much Pathfinders earn). Rovagug gives you the pretty funny option of scouring the market to haggle for an elegant beautiful handmade anything, and then SMASH IT!
Might want to bring that to Mr. Compton's attention, then, since he explicitly said it was a viable alternative in PFS. ^_^
Mr. Compton is welcome to publish errata to Inner Sea Gods via the standard channels. But unless he does so, the book is a rules source and forum posts are not.
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Contributor
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Might want to bring that to Mr. Compton's attention, then, since he explicitly said it was a viable alternative in PFS. ^_^Mr. Compton is welcome to publish errata to Inner Sea Gods via the standard channels. But unless he does so, the book is a rules source and forum posts are not.
From the Guide to Organized Play, page 5:
The Pathfinder Society Community
You may not simply ignore rules clarifications made by the campaign leadership, including the campaign coordinator and campaign developer, on the paizo.com messageboards. GMs are not required to read every post on the messageboards, but GMs familiar with rules clarifications made by the campaign leadership (which have not been superseded by the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play or FAQ) must abide by these clarifications or rulings. If it is a significant clarification, it will be updated in the FAQ, and later in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play if necessary.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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That's nice and all, but a change that directly contradicts written rules is not a "clarification" by any stretch of the word.
Life would become very funny if you could clarify "you must do X" into "well, you don't really have to do X if you don't feel like it and you can certainly ignore any and all consequences if you do it anyway" :)
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Developer
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Since day one, evil PCs have not been allowed in the organized play campaign. Since that same date, PCs have been allowed to worship evil deities. It creates a curious situation in which evil is allowed yet is not allowed to be evil, ever struggling to define where the line of "evil enough" is drawn without tripping over that border into the realm of "too evil for organized play."
Surely it would be easiest to simply prohibit all evil deities in the campaign and call it a day, wouldn't it? It's something that has come up before and that I have considered instituting—at least at the level of thought experiment. Unfortunately, the ship has sailed regarding that matter, for such a change would now remove dozens of previously legal deities associated with hundreds of currently legal character options (e.g. feats, spells, traits, magic items, etc.). This would unduly impact an immense number of players, as I understand many, many players—if not the majority of those with three or more PCs—have at least one such evil "lite" character. What's more, I really dislike removing current options from the campaign, and including more options tends to result in a richer, more enjoyable experience for all.
There is a certain truth that any of the non-good neutral alignments can be a way to slip a character who should be evil under the radar. Yes, I have seen the chaotic neutral PCs who propose atrocities that would make a demon say, "Whoa dude, tone it down a little." However, for every one of those, I have had the pleasure to play alongside or GM for another five or more whose characters worship an evil god using a somewhat heretical (and considerably more neutral-aligned) philosophy, present a character with darker allegiances in a mature way, or adeptly manage to roleplay with flavor while being very considerate of the whole table's enjoyment. It's a learned skill, and even those who fall into the former camp can be taught how to join the latter. That's the power of the community, the social experience, and the shared game we enjoy together.
That is why I acknowledge that these alternate means of fulfilling an obedience exist and are a better fit for the campaign. Just as it is often bad form for a GM to force a paladin to fall from grace (barring compulsion magic and the like), it is important to me that a GM not force a PC to commit evil acts and be removed from the campaign as a result of choosing perfectly legal character options that offer a very tame alternative to fulfill. And yes, I acknowledge and even champion the idea that there are some exceedingly evil ways to use evil options that would result in an alignment infraction. Consider the following exchange.
Player: Okay, my character meditates on spiked chains and emerges an hour later covered in painful gouges.
GM: Sorry, but there are people nearby. You have to torture one.
Player: I acknowledge that that is one way to do my obedience, but my character isn't a big fan of forcing pain on others. As a person, neither am I. I just really dig the darkness and focus-through-self-inflicted-pain concept.
GM: Too bad. There are people around, so you need to torture one.
Player: *Sigh* Okay? I guess I torture one, but I feel really bad about having to do so.
GM: I have to warn you, if you willingly torture someone, it's an evil act, and your character will be removed from play.
Player: That is why I wanted to meditate. The feat is really central to my character, and that seems like a legitimate and non-disruptive way to fulfill it.
GM: Next time don't choose evil options that will get you banned from play.
Would you do this as a GM? I would not.
Why not? It is because each of the evil options that I have approved for use in the organized play campaign over the past three years is one that I believed can be used in a way that is not so evil that it is disruptive to other players' play experience and everyone's enjoyment of the game. It is why I am saying now that these low-impact means of fulfilling these five obediences are perfectly fine in the organized play campaign. It is why I continue to allow limited expression of evil into the game: I trust our players, leaders, and communities to use these options in a way that we can tell an enjoyable story together.
If a GM does not feel empowered to honor this more permissive interpretation of these deific obediences without an update to the Campaign Clarifications document, please let me know.
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While moving through a crowd of people (at least six individuals), whisper a prayer to Norgorber so quietly that no one hears you. If you suspect a member of the crowd heard you, you must follow that individual and prick her with a poisoned needle or other sharp implement. If you can’t locate a suitable crowd, dig a hole at least 6 inches deep in the ground, whisper your prayers into the hole, and bury the sound. At the end of your obedience, dip a needle in poison and leave it on a road, jutting from a windowsill, or anywhere else a passerby might inadvertently prick herself.You can whisper in a hole only if you cannot locate a group of six people. Furthermore, doing so still requires you to poison a random passerby.
In any town, city, or village? (as in, pretty much every PFS scenario ever) Yeah, you have to do the public prayer, and if someone hears you, shank them.
In the non-hypothetical case of the inquisitor of Norgorber that I'm kinda considering this for, we're talking about someone whose entire life revolves around keeping secrets, and has +13 bluff at level 1. By the time I'd take this feat (level 5 minimum) and pick up some items to help with that skill, I'm sure I'd be above +20 to bluff, especially since the obedience itself adds +3 bluff.
He should be pretty good at going unnoticed whispering in a crowd. And if necessary, he can "accidentally" poke someone with a dagger without anyone realizing it was intentional. It doesn't say you have to actually hurt the person who overheard you - just prick them.
Edit: Heh. Ninja'd by John Compton.
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If a GM does not feel empowered to honor this more permissive interpretation of these deific obediences without an update to the Campaign Clarifications document, please let me know.
This is fairly important and a fair stretch from the rules as written (Kulald makes a pretty good point above). I'd urge that it be added to the Campaign Clarifications document due to the much greater visibility that has than a post in a moderately obscure thread.
Too many GMs will not read it here
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If a GM does not feel empowered to honor this more permissive interpretation of these deific obediences without an update to the Campaign Clarifications document, please let me know.This is fairly important and a fair stretch from the rules as written (Kulald makes a pretty good point above). I'd urge that it be added to the Campaign Clarifications document due to the much greater visibility that has than a post in a moderately obscure thread.
Too many GMs will not read it here
The other side of this is not if GM feel empowered to do the more permissive, but do they have to? Like a GM says what you have in your example, not because he feels he has to by PFS rule, but feels that's the way it should be and rules it as such at his table. Is the players forced to abandon his obedience for the scenario or be changed to evil? OR is the GM forced to accept the lite version?
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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or is the Judge making the ruling AFTER the obedience is done, as a "gotcha" moment?The other side of this is not if GM feel empowered to do the more permissive, but do they have to? Like a GM says what you have in your example, not because he feels he has to by PFS rule, but feels that's the way it should be and rules it as such at his table. Is the players forced to abandon his obedience for the scenario or be changed to evil? OR is the GM forced to accept the lite version?If a GM does not feel empowered to honor this more permissive interpretation of these deific obediences without an update to the Campaign Clarifications document, please let me know.This is fairly important and a fair stretch from the rules as written (Kulald makes a pretty good point above). I'd urge that it be added to the Campaign Clarifications document due to the much greater visibility that has than a post in a moderately obscure thread.
Too many GMs will not read it here
Gotcha moments are not permitted. The GM is *required* to warn you before you act. That is clearly stated in the guide to organized play.
