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So... I inadvertently started a thread derail in the Breaking the Bones of Hell GM thread. (My first comment was on topic, I swear!) But I wanted to open up a thread for people to talk about asexuality if they wanted to.
For those unaware, asexuality is a sexual orientation that approximately 1% of the population identifies as. An asexual person, or ace, is most easily defined as "someone who does not experience sexual attraction." It can include a spectrum of people including but not limited to demisexuals (people who only experience sexual attraction with someone they have an emotional connection to) and gray-asexuals (people who rarely experience sexual attraction.
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Thanks Eliandra. I'll repeat my questions here, safely away from the scary dinosaur... :)
Question: how rare are people with this orientation or lack of desire? (I've never heard of this type of non-visible minority; thus I'm assuming it's a minority)
Question 2: How plausible would it be for asexual people to display themselves as overly sexualized like Seoni? (in a middle-age setting; not a modern setting) Wouldn't that engender a stream of useless attention towards them? Wouldn't such people get really fed up or angry at all the people hitting on them? (I'm guessing everyone would display their asexuality differently, same as straight of gay people have different styles; but I'm wondering about the plausibility of such a thing in a harsh, ancient world where Erastil is a thing...)
(I'm just trying to understand; not judging; I'm mostly trying to see how they would fit within Golarion's population and to a separate extent, vis-a-vis Golarion's faiths, especially those with vested interest in sexuality or gender roles i.e. vs. Erastil, Arshea, Calistria, etc.)
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Well Eliandra answered question one: approximately 1% of the population. With the current Earth population of approximately 7.3 billion (7,300,000,000) people, that'd be 73 million (73,000,000), give or take.
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Question 2: How plausible would it be for asexual people to display themselves as overly sexualized like Seoni? (in a middle-age setting; not a modern setting) Wouldn't that engender a stream of useless attention towards them? Wouldn't such people get really fed up or angry at all the people hitting on them? (I'm guessing everyone would display their asexuality differently, same as straight of gay people have different styles; but I'm wondering about the plausibility of such a thing in a harsh, ancient world where Erastil is a thing...)
(I'm just trying to understand; not judging; I'm mostly trying to see how they would fit within Golarion's population and to a separate extent, vis-a-vis Golarion's faiths, especially those with vested interest in sexuality or gender roles i.e. vs. Erastil, Arshea, Calistria, etc.)
I think the answer to this one is "just as likely as anyone else is to dress in a manner in which makes them feel good about themselves." People do not normally get up in the morning and put on clothes while thinking to themselves "I hope the rest of mankind/orckind/elvenkind/gnomekind/koboldkind thinks I'm super sexy and falls over themselves in dying adoration and approval." Nope, we usually get up, put on clothes and think "I like the way this looks on me" or more often, in my case, "Oh thank goodness something is clean and fits."
It takes all kinds to make any world go around and I hope that as a matter of course that Golarion is the same way. Sexuality may or may not have a place in a specific table's dynamics, but allowing for the option for those tables that do want it is something that I personally would like to see as an option.
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Question 2: How plausible would it be for asexual people to display themselves as overly sexualized like Seoni? (in a middle-age setting; not a modern setting) Wouldn't that engender a stream of useless attention towards them? Wouldn't such people get really fed up or angry at all the people hitting on them? (I'm guessing everyone would display their asexuality differently, same as straight of gay people have different styles; but I'm wondering about the plausibility of such a thing in a harsh, ancient world where Erastil is a thing...)
(I'm just trying to understand; not judging; I'm mostly trying to see how they would fit within Golarion's population and to a separate extent, vis-a-vis Golarion's faiths, especially those with vested interest in sexuality or gender roles i.e. vs. Erastil, Arshea, Calistria, etc.)
I think the answer to this one is "just as likely as anyone else is to dress in a manner in which makes them feel good about themselves." People do not normally get up in the morning and put on clothes while thinking to themselves "I hope the rest of mankind/orckind/elvenkind/gnomekind/koboldkind thinks I'm super sexy and falls over themselves in dying adoration and approval." Nope, we usually get up, put on clothes and think "I like the way this looks on me" or more often, in my case, "Oh thank goodness something is clean and fits."
It takes all kinds to make any world go around and I hope that as a matter of course that Golarion is the same way. Sexuality may or may not have a place in a specific table's dynamics, but allowing for the option for those tables that do want it is something that I personally would like to see as an option.
You forgot to include the section of the population that just reaches for what they see first and put it on.
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This might be oversimplifying but --
An asexual person could easily still want relationships/affection/etc. Few people want to actually be alone.
But an asexual person find the notion of sex itself uninteresting, unappealing or actually revolting.
I believe we have at least a couple asexual people on the boards.
(The highest profile asexual I think of off the top of my head is good ol' H. P. Lovecraft, who was a married man who found sex disgusting. (His marriage didn't last.) But HPL ain't the best standard bearer for social issues, because the man's inner demons were something else.)
There's a vast number of deities in Pathfinder who have nothing at all to do with sex/procreation. An asexual character has plenty of options.
(And even within some of those faiths. Calistria wouldn't demand that her followers do stuff that isn't fun. Erastil wants you to take care of kids, but he never required they be your kids. And so on.)
Edit: Amending my original comment on HPL (which is preserved below in Mr. Jacob's post), as I phrased it badly. (As yes, I agree with Mr. Jacobs.)
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Erastil isn't a misogynist anymore - that has since been errata'd and was a mistake to begin with.
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This might be oversimplifying but --
An asexual person could easily still want relationships/affection/etc.
I believe that this gets into whether an asexual person is also aromantic*, or whether they are heteroromantic/homoromantic/biromantic**. Most of this means exactly what it sounds like.
*Not "aromatic", although that's also possible. Not "aeromantic", either, unless they're Shory.
**Unrelated to ballpoint-pen-centric magic.
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I can see asexuality being an interesting RP topic when Erastil and or Callistra are concerned.
Ahhh yes, Erastil is no longer the god of bear feet and sandwiches (for which we are all bloody well thankful, I could not stand his followers when he was still the god of...you know, starts with miso...)
I can see Callistra (and her followers) being much more sympathetic to an asexual character, or perhaps absolutely vexed by one as they struggle to understand how the asexual character interacts with the world when sexual pleasure is not a top priority per say. (given Callistra's portfolio, I would think some of her clergy would be very confused)
Now I am intrigued, as without sex being the main driver of interpersonal relations to a character, I can see allot of interesting stuff opening up.
Also, this fine thread is informative to boot :)
Oh,and good to see you around mother bear!
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(The highest profile asexual I think of off the top of my head is good ol' H. P. Lovecraft, who was a married man who found sex disgusting. (His marriage didn't last.) But HPL ain't the best standard bearer for anything, because holy hell the man had issues.)
Lovecraft certainly had some personality issues that were at least in part results of the time he lived in... but saying he's not a good standard bearer for ANYTHING is flat-out wrong. He's an excellent standard bearer for "encouraging other writers to write," in that he ghost wrote a LOT of stuff for a wide range of people. He's an excellent standard bearer for "letting others play with your creations" in that he actively encouraged other writers to use his inventions in their stories. He's an excellent standard bearer for "inventing a genre of fiction" and influencing a LOT of writers to come along after.
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Me thinks Mr. Jacobs is a fan of H.P :)
He indeed is a good example of...things that require your clothes to stay on, just not of that thing that married folk do sometime when the kids are at the Grandparents house...(gahh, now I sound a little like old style Erastil with my old timey example, grrarrr!)
::something something push the twin beds together::
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Question 2: How plausible would it be for asexual people to display themselves as overly sexualized like Seoni? (in a middle-age setting; not a modern setting) Wouldn't that engender a stream of useless attention towards them? Wouldn't such people get really fed up or angry at all the people hitting on them? (I'm guessing everyone would display their asexuality differently, same as straight of gay people have different styles; but I'm wondering about the plausibility of such a thing in a harsh, ancient world where Erastil is a thing...)(I'm just trying to understand; not judging; I'm mostly trying to see how they would fit within Golarion's population and to a separate extent, vis-a-vis Golarion's faiths, especially those with vested interest in sexuality or gender roles i.e. vs. Erastil, Arshea, Calistria, etc.)
I imagine aces on Golarion run into a lot of the same issues that aces on Earth do, with regard to societal expectations regarding sexuality. Though actually Golarion is set up to be more tolerant of differences than Earth often is.
Aces irl who are members of religions that are largely seen as sex negative, e.g. Christianity, nonetheless run into issues because they are still expected to procreate. I would imagine that there aren't a ton of Calistrian aces, but I could see someone being more into revenge and the general indulgence than the sex part, and I imagine Calistria would be okay with that. Part of being liberated with regard to sex is also accepting that sometimes people choose not to have it, for a variety of reasons.
That is an excellent point Eliandra, chalk one up for the enlightened followers of Callistra.
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Question 2: How plausible would it be for asexual people to display themselves as overly sexualized like Seoni? (in a middle-age setting; not a modern setting) Wouldn't that engender a stream of useless attention towards them? Wouldn't such people get really fed up or angry at all the people hitting on them? (I'm guessing everyone would display their asexuality differently, same as straight of gay people have different styles; but I'm wondering about the plausibility of such a thing in a harsh, ancient world where Erastil is a thing...)(I'm just trying to understand; not judging; I'm mostly trying to see how they would fit within Golarion's population and to a separate extent, vis-a-vis Golarion's faiths, especially those with vested interest in sexuality or gender roles i.e. vs. Erastil, Arshea, Calistria, etc.)
I imagine aces on Golarion run into a lot of the same issues that aces on Earth do, with regard to societal expectations regarding sexuality. Though actually Golarion is set up to be more tolerant of differences than Earth often is.
Aces irl who are members of religions that are largely seen as sex negative, e.g. Christianity, nonetheless run into issues because they are still expected to procreate. I would imagine that there aren't a ton of Calistrian aces, but I could see someone being more into revenge and the general indulgence than the sex part, and I imagine Calistria would be okay with that. Part of being liberated with regard to sex is also accepting that sometimes people choose not to have it, for a variety of reasons.
Annnnd now I am forced to use this as a PC. See, this is why I love the forums. Gives me fantastic ideas that I would have never thought of myself.
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That said, the part of the players guide that lists out some of the things known about Thrune includes a sort of bait and switch regarding his sexuality. Sure, he's not actually ace. But the citizens of Kintargo read him as such, and so speculate that he's maybe not human? The people of Kintargo aren't perfect, certainly, but it's not like there's a particular undercurrent or point made to address an intolerance among them for ace folk. As such, this little fun fact about Thrune comes off as acephobic because it isn't disputed or called out as, say, a problematic attitude among some of the more insensitive Kintargo residents. I found it pretty disappointing to read, and the clarification on the boards helps alleviate that, but that's not going to help the people who don't read that particular section of these forums.
This is actually something that stood out to me when I first downloaded the player's guide, but I didn't feel like there was a particularly good opportunity to bring it up before. I would fully support ace characters in future adventures, and I'm glad as always that the Paizo folks take these issues of representation seriously. :)
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** spoiler omitted **
Regarding that...
That said, point taken, and I'll certainly try to be more clear about how that's handled in the future when the topic comes up. I feel that we at Paizo have done a pretty excellent job at being inclusive over the company's lifetime, and hope that we've built up a reputation such that if we DO publish something like the above that leaves some elements open to interpretation in multiple ways that the most obvious interpretation is the inclusive one, given our track record. But at the same time, that can be a dangerous thing to rely upon, obviously. So yeah... we'll continue being inclusive, and I hope that some day we'll earn that trust overall that we're not trying to be any-phobic.
Although it's always going to be a tricky thing in a format like a Player's Guide, where we're deliberately NOT giving out the truth and deliberately doing some bait and switch to keep things mysterious but intriguing so that the players are more invested in finding out the truth...
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Reiko, the ninja iconic, is asexual, but not aromantic (though that's not in her Meet the Iconics story).
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Reiko, the ninja iconic, is asexual, but not aromantic (though that's not in her Meet the Iconics story).
And genderfluid, if I recall correctly. ^_^
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** spoiler omitted **Regarding that...
** spoiler omitted **
And I do appreciate Paizo's approach to gender and sexuality representation. It has a good track record, but more importantly it has a record that has improved over time. Thanks for taking the time to address my concerns, and I look forward to seeing what Paizo has in store for the future. Y'all's approach to inclusivity is a major reason that I stick with Pathfinder.
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Reiko, the ninja iconic, is asexual, but not aromantic (though that's not in her Meet the Iconics story).And genderfluid, if I recall correctly. ^_^
Yup!
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Huh... it's a simple question. I endeavor to follow canon but I enjoy reading these turning points for myself. Like the undoing of the Asmodean paladins a while back. My request was not intended to sound sarcastic: where can I read about the new Erastil faith direction?
Sorry if I seemed snappish. ^_^ PMing you.
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Thanks Eliandra. I'll repeat my questions here, safely away from the scary dinosaur... :)
Question: how rare are people with this orientation or lack of desire? (I've never heard of this type of non-visible minority; thus I'm assuming it's a minority)
Question 2: How plausible would it be for asexual people to display themselves as overly sexualized like Seoni? (in a middle-age setting; not a modern setting) Wouldn't that engender a stream of useless attention towards them? Wouldn't such people get really fed up or angry at all the people hitting on them? (I'm guessing everyone would display their asexuality differently, same as straight of gay people have different styles; but I'm wondering about the plausibility of such a thing in a harsh, ancient world where Erastil is a thing...)
(I'm just trying to understand; not judging; I'm mostly trying to see how they would fit within Golarion's population and to a separate extent, vis-a-vis Golarion's faiths, especially those with vested interest in sexuality or gender roles i.e. vs. Erastil, Arshea, Calistria, etc.)
1- I am an asexual. Many people are not aware of us, so few people even bother to identify themselves as asexual. But there are quite a few of us around.
2- There are many ways. The thing is that some asexuals are so removed from sex life that they not see the obvious sexual connotations most other people see (it happens to me a lot). Other asexual just don´t like the sex act, but like to tease and even flirt, having romantic life and feel pretty to others. There is a lot of ways.
3- It´s ok. There a lot of asexual types out there, even among other non-cis, we are questioned a lot about what we feel.
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I really want a short web fiction featuring the iconic Ninja and a young Callistran priest or priestess. In between adventure and action, I would love to see their interactions as they work towards understanding one another even though their lifestyles and views are vastly different, I think it could make an excellent "finding the balance" type of tale.
But that is just my 2cp. But thanks Paizo and board folk, this thread allowed me to learn allot more about a topic I did not know much about before, and that is priceless IMO.
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Aexual. Aromantic. It really doesn't come up in fiction a lot and I'm fine with that because
1) Its a very rare thing. Even IF a writer has heard of this, writers tend to write what they know, both because its easier and writing something other than yourself has you second guessing yourself for insensitivity and implications that can get distracting. Rare for people, rare for writers, rare to be written.
2) Its a pretty alien mindset. Its such a reflexive part of peoples lives they don't even think about it. (I think if people thought about it they'd run screaming...) Most people don't seem to be able to comprehend it, even when they lived the first few years of their life that way.
3) Love's an easy go to for a plot hook. Why is this person doing all of these ridiculous things you want to write about? Loves a great excuse for a lot of interesting idiocy ending up in hospital stays.
4) Its very hard to show a lack of something, and telling just comes off as a little hackneyed. Conservation of detail says that only certain things come up. If something doesn't come up, its passed off as just not being relevant to the story. These days you'd need to spend two scenes to show this, one showing that the character wasn't interested in someone of the opposite sex making a pass at them (which would probably make the audence think they were gay) and then one showing them refusing that sort of advance as well. For example, what sexuality are groot rocket and thanos?
5) As a pretty invisible minority (we really don't have a whole lot of reason to congregate...) we don't have a lot of discrimination going on, adversity to fight against or a need for positive role models.
6) I don't see the need for a positive role model to validate the way I am. Just not engaging in an activity is pretty easy. Its not like when you need to buck up the courage to try to do that dance of asking if someone likes you the way you like them. I'm going to do what i do by not doing anything (ohhhmmm)
And above are six reasons why I would never personally attempt to write said piece of fiction. Mayhaps though someday a writer shall attempt and succeed, just not going to be me.
(I like challenges, but not as much as I like not making an arse of myself by trying to write from perspectives I know nothing about)
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I'm mostly fine with there not being a lot of asexuality in fiction. This mostly came up because there was a character in Hell's Rebels who COULD be read as very bad asexual representation. (Though that was not Paizo's intent at all, and Hell's Rebels is an amazing AP overall.)
I think the occasional asexuality representation is important, though, precisely because asexuality is invisible. I want this for asexual people out there who don't realize asexuality exists and think there is something wrong with them. But if they read an AP where there's a character who's like them, they'll find out that there are other people like them who are perfectly normal.
And I say "them," but I mean "me," because I spent a lot of time feeling like I was broken before I actually paid attention to the term asexuality. It was nice to know I was not alone.
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And above are six reasons why I would never personally attempt to write said piece of fiction. Mayhaps though someday a writer shall attempt and succeed, just not going to be me.
(I like challenges, but not as much as I like not making an arse of myself by trying to write from perspectives I know nothing about)
While it's tempting to not make the attempt for fear of reprisal, not writing inclusive fiction out of ignorance has the same result as not writing it out of concern for how it's received. That end result is still a lack of good representation.
Paizo has made some good strides in this area, and what it comes down to is striving for inclusion and representation (and listening to what under represented groups are asking for!), and then apologizing and doing better when you eventually do something dumb. And that's not entirely your fault, because asexuality (among other non-straight orientations) is both consciously and unconsciously erased, invalidated, and suppressed.
The other big step, in general, is to seek out the works of, in this case, asexual creators. You're in a somewhat unique position as a 3pp co-owner that you can also take the step of seeking out the work of these people to publish. If you're concerned about your own ability to respectfully portray asexual characters or communities, then look to that community and hire them to do it if you want to make it happen.
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Speaking as someone demisexual (more or less, anyway)...it's really hard in fiction (or real life, sometimes) to distinguish between someone demisexual and someone simply uninterested in casual sex.
I mean, unless someone identifies as such or they're a viewpoint character and you get to hear a lot about their sexual/romantic interests and lack thereof...how can you tell?
That said, I've actually seen several examples in fiction (usually romantic fiction of one sort or another, usually women) that could be interpreted as demisexual, where the person makes reference to being uninterested in sex and then fall in love and become interested with that person. But is that actually intended to represent demisexuality or simply an inaccurate view of the majority of women's sexuality? Or just a reflection of the author wanting to emphasize the importance of this particular relationship? Or something else entirely? It can be really hard to tell.
Personally, I'm not that invested in demisexual protagonists in my fiction, and would prefer that there simply be less constant call in fiction for men to be promiscuous, but then I'm on the 'almost heterosexual' end of the demisexuality spectrum...so my opinion probably shouldn't be taken to represent, well, anyone but me.
The same ambiguity I note above is somewhat less true of being fully asexual, but even there it's not actually that easy to spot absent a viewpoiunt character...any character who doesn't have sex regularly could be asexual (but, in most authors work, likely aren't). Some more asexual protagonists in fiction would certainly be cool, though.
Question 2: How plausible would it be for asexual people to display themselves as overly sexualized like Seoni? (in a middle-age setting; not a modern setting) Wouldn't that engender a stream of useless attention towards them? Wouldn't such people get really fed up or angry at all the people hitting on them? (I'm guessing everyone would display their asexuality differently, same as straight of gay people have different styles; but I'm wondering about the plausibility of such a thing in a harsh, ancient world where Erastil is a thing...)
Well, this assumes a few things incorrectly, I think. Firstly, Golarion doesn't seem to have a more conservative dress code than modern Earth, so it probably wouldn't be much different there than here.
Secondly, it assumes that asexual people are offended by being hit on, or find it tiring. I'm sure that's true for many, but certainly not all asexual people. I'm personally flattered when people hit on me, even if I'm completely uninterested in them (which is a thing that's happened). Of course, I'm a guy and don't get hit on all too often...but still, it proves the attitude is possible.
Now...I would indeed assume that any asexual people who were bothered by people propositioning them would generally dress in a non-sexualized fashion. But even that is a generalization, not some sort of absolute rule.
And Erastil's a cool enough dude in regards to this sort of thing, as mentioned above.
That is an excellent point mecha, and TFPG is always happy to take on new writers, in fact, more fiction writers are rather in demand at the office right now. If you know any, point them our way, all writers welcome, and of course not just of the types we have been discussing here.
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Speaking as someone demisexual (more or less, anyway)...it's really hard in fiction (or real life, sometimes) to distinguish between someone demisexual and someone simply uninterested in casual sex.
I'm actually not sure what all the difference is myself other than in how someone chooses to define themselves. (*This is not meant to be insensitive. I have trouble with my text being taken that way - so I'm putting this is in so as it's not.*) I certainly wouldn't be able to write the difference convincingly.
The other big step, in general, is to seek out the works of, in this case, asexual creators. You're in a somewhat unique position as a 3pp co-owner that you can also take the step of seeking out the work of these people to publish. If you're concerned about your own ability to respectfully portray asexual characters or communities, then look to that community and hire them to do it if you want to make it happen.
I don't think this is really incumbent on anyone in the entertainment industry to do this, especially where sexuality and relationships aren't at the forefront of the story. For RPGs the focus is the characters created by the people sitting around the table. NPCs rarely get enough limelight to showcase something like this that is very difficult to show.
You can make some pretty good arguments that for oppressed minorities there's genuine harm being done by the lack of sympathetic portrayals but I don't think it exists in this case. Why go through the increased difficulty, risk, and hassle of leaving your comfort zone and more important your competency zone to get...what? recognition? Validation?
Each individual entertainment company only has control over a few characters. You could reasonably expect to meet 100, 200, or even 300 people without running into an asexual even if they were wearing hats. Its not that unusual not to have any. It starts to look a little weird when your cast of characters is like one of those oddly multicultural 1980s TV gangs.
There's also no guarantee that an asexual writer would get a better result: reality is unrealistic after all.
PDK is quite correct, and a great book BTW!
Salim, your sir are kind of bloody awesome!
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I don't think this is really incumbent on anyone in the entertainment industry to do this, especially where sexuality and relationships aren't at the forefront of the story.
[..]
There's also no guarantee that an asexual writer would get a better result: reality is unrealistic after all.
This. A good story should be the first criteria that goes into publishing it. I love that Paizo has displayed great respect for all kinds of visible or non-minorities out there, but I don't want each story or adventure published to start feeling like it's an after school special funded for educational purposes. Doing so would cheapen the stories already published that touch on those very subjects (i.e. controversial or delicate subject matter should not become the norm). Education is great, but I'm not expecting Paizo to be a supplier of education or feel like it has to be.
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PDK is quite correct, and a great book BTW!
Salim, your sir are kind of bloody awesome!
Salim is boss! that's for sure!
...but I wasn't talking about Salim! hehehe
Indeed, actually really liked those two, heart strings got all beat up given the events of the novel.
(power of vague enough to avoid spoilers activate :) )
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Huh... it's a simple question. I endeavor to follow canon but I enjoy reading these turning points for myself. Like the undoing of the Asmodean paladins a while back. My request was not intended to sound sarcastic: where can I read about the new Erastil faith direction?
Erastil's write-up in Inner Sea Gods supersedes his write-up in Rivers Run Red. Consider it errata rather than a retcon.
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The other big step, in general, is to seek out the works of, in this case, asexual creators. You're in a somewhat unique position as a 3pp co-owner that you can also take the step of seeking out the work of these people to publish. If you're concerned about your own ability to respectfully portray asexual characters or communities, then look to that community and hire them to do it if you want to make it happen.I don't think this is really incumbent on anyone in the entertainment industry to do this, especially where sexuality and relationships aren't at the forefront of the story. For RPGs the focus is the characters created by the people sitting around the table. NPCs rarely get enough limelight to showcase something like this that is very difficult to show.
You can make some pretty good arguments that for oppressed minorities there's genuine harm being done by the lack of sympathetic portrayals but I don't think it exists in this case. Why go through the increased difficulty, risk, and hassle of leaving your comfort zone and more important your competency zone to get...what? recognition? Validation?
Each individual entertainment company only has control over a few characters. You could reasonably expect to meet 100, 200, or even 300 people without running into an asexual even if they were wearing hats. Its not that unusual not to have any. It starts to look a little weird when your cast of characters is like one of those oddly multicultural 1980s TV gangs.
There's also no guarantee that an asexual writer would get a better result: reality is unrealistic after all.
Of course it's not anyone's sworn duty to provide positive representation of under represented and oppressed groups (unless a publisher goes out of their way to actually make that part of their goal). But is sticking to the status quo important, or just easier? And although it can be difficult for a given writer or GM to highlight a character's asexuality, that doesn't mean it's impossible or even as difficult for someone else to present, nor does it mean that it's not worth trying.
Lack of representation in stories has several negative effects on people, including isolation and lower self-esteem. And just because you personally haven't observed the ill effects of it doesn't mean that asexual erasure and oppression don't exist. There are plenty of ace folks who would love to have had (and have) some support and representation. If portraying people who are different from you is outside someone's competency, maybe they are just not that good a writer and just relying on the status quo to make up for their mediocrity.
Stories don't have to include diversity for diversity's sake. But then what's the alternative? Culturally homogenous groups for the sake of the status quo? The dominant cultural groups already get a lot of representation, so the answer is "don't make it weird by upsetting that"? That seems like a pretty weak reason to not vary from the dominant artificial norm.
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Huh... it's a simple question. I endeavor to follow canon but I enjoy reading these turning points for myself. Like the undoing of the Asmodean paladins a while back. My request was not intended to sound sarcastic: where can I read about the new Erastil faith direction?Erastil's write-up in Inner Sea Gods supersedes his write-up in Rivers Run Red. Consider it errata rather than a retcon.
Thank you Haladir!
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I mean, unless someone identifies as such or they're a viewpoint character and you get to hear a lot about their sexual/romantic interests and lack thereof...how can you tell?
Even with a POV character it's usually not obvious unless (as you've pointed out) romance and relationships are a central concern of the story and the author goes out of their way to lampshade the issue. Otherwise, most readers will just assume that "it's not that kind of story" (in other words, it's a fantasy or a mystery or a non-James Bond spy thriller, and romance is just not a primary concern) and interpret the lack of a romantic or sexual subplot as the author's lack of interest rather than the character's.
Sometimes that's true, and sometimes it isn't. I've definitely written short stories where there wasn't any room for a romantic subplot and so no thought of sex ever crossed the POV character's mind one way or another. You could interpret those characters as asexual (and you wouldn't necessarily be wrong, any more than you'd be wrong to imagine them as gay or straight or anything else; the text would be silent either way), but you'd be giving me-the-author too much credit if you assumed it was a deliberate choice.
On the other hand I've also written a novel with an asexual protagonist where that did get lampshaded as a deliberate choice, and pretty much the only readers who picked up on it were the ones who were asexual themselves. Most other readers just didn't see that aspect of the character at all -- which is fine with me, since I very much wanted it to be a situation where you could catch the subtext if you were looking for it, but nobody would get bludgeoned over the head with the Cudgel of Obviousness.
Anyway the point I'm trying to make is that IMO this is very much a situation where it's easy to not see a depiction of an invisible minority, and it's hard for writers to make that super obvious without being, well, super obvious to the point of (in my view) detracting from the story. But certainly they're out there.
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I would imagine that there aren't a ton of Calistrian aces,
If "beware a celibate calistrian" isn't a golarion proverb it should be, because she's only the goddess of two things really...
Of course it's not anyone's sworn duty to provide positive representation of under represented and oppressed groups (unless a publisher goes out of their way to actually make that part of their goal). But is sticking to the status quo important, or just easier?
Just easier. Without any compelling argument that it needs to be done why take anything other than the path of least resistance? It seems like all cost and less than no benefit when you're doing something very difficult for a very small audience with every likelihood of having it face recrimination for being done wrong.
If portraying people who are different from you is outside someone's competency, maybe they are just not that good a writer and just relying on the status quo to make up for their mediocrity.
Professional writers struggle to go outside of that, especially when someone with experience reads their work. Anyone can write about someone living in a fantasy world or pseudomedieval eng land because no one knows it any better than the author. Even when the author is surrounded by 50% of the population being of the opposite sex authors is hard. When writing the opposite gender: the way male authors write women is subject to constant critiques and women writing men usually seem a little off to me. If you can't write realistic women after spending your entire life living with them, how much research would it take to convincingly cater to 1% or less of the population that they've never interacted with?
That's not a fair burden to put on people nor is it fair to accuse them of mediocrity for looking at the costs and benefits and saying nope, especially when the payoff is so small.
If groups that small want representation they're going to have to do it themselves.
Stories don't have to include diversity for diversity's sake. But then what's the alternative? Culturally homogenous groups for the sake of the status quo? The dominant cultural groups already get a lot of representation, so the answer is "don't make it weird by upsetting that"? That seems like a pretty weak reason to not vary from the dominant artificial norm.
I think the only solution is self publishing/small publishing by people in these groups that want to tell these stories and have a good story to tell. You get extra homogenization when you run stories through a group: ie, a board of directors thats 90% heterosexual and trying to put out a story to a wide audience is going to identify more strongly with a heterosexual story for a larger heterosexual audience 100% of the time.
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I'm actually not sure what all the difference is myself other than in how someone chooses to define themselves. (*This is not meant to be insensitive. I have trouble with my text being taken that way - so I'm putting this is in so as it's not.*)
The difference basically comes down to attraction. Someone who is demisexual isn't even sexually attracted to strangers, only people they have an emotional connection with.
Someone simply uninterested in casual sex, meanwhile, might well be attracted to a stranger, they'd simply never act on it.
I certainly wouldn't be able to write the difference convincingly.
It's tricky, but not impossible. You need to write them both not being romantically involved, and later being so. Then you can emphasize the dichotomy between the lack of attraction followed by said attraction.
I guess someone not interested in casual sex, but not demissexual , actually feel bad that they don´t have a partner to do sex; while a demissexual doesn´t even remember about sex without being in love with a partner.
That's...not necessarily true. For me, it just takes the form of fantasizing about full-blown relationships (sex and all) rather than casual encounters. Plus the aforementioned lack of attraction to strangers.
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I'm actually not sure what all the difference is myself other than in how someone chooses to define themselves. (*This is not meant to be insensitive. I have trouble with my text being taken that way - so I'm putting this is in so as it's not.*)The difference basically comes down to attraction. Someone who is demisexual isn't even sexually attracted to strangers, only people they have an emotional connection with.
Someone simply uninterested in casual sex, meanwhile, might well be attracted to a stranger, they'd simply never act on it.
I certainly wouldn't be able to write the difference convincingly.It's tricky, but not impossible. You need to write them both not being romantically involved, and later being so. Then you can emphasize the dichotomy between the lack of attraction followed by said attraction.
I guess someone not interested in casual sex, but not demissexual , actually feel bad that they don´t have a partner to do sex; while a demissexual doesn´t even remember about sex without being in love with a partner.That's...not necessarily true. For me, it just takes the form of fantasizing about full-blown relationships (sex and all) rather than casual encounters. Plus the aforementioned lack of attraction to strangers.
It sounds like it'd be written the same outside of a story with a strong internal dialogue.