as I read it, the paragraph begins by calling out that preventing possession is the second effect. The final line is a restriction that the second function only affects evil creatures. By subjecting this restriction to DM discretion it suggests that sometimes the second effect will work on creatures that aren't evil. That is how I read it anyway.
In terms of alignment the spell was used in the context of it being used regularly if not every day. In those grounds that would cause an alignment change if used repeatedly.
I think there is a trend here that the most powerful (read broken) combinations seem to involve acts that if not outright evil, definitely skirt the territory of the archetypal mad wizard/evil enchanter. Summoning demons, possessing armies, animating the dead, creating armies of simulacrum, and sacrificing anthropomorphic blue whales - are not really in the perview of heroic adventurers.
As a result many games would never need to worry about these issues.
I think summoning demons should always be a bit fraught - otherwise it cheapens the effect of the abyss. After your wizard has summoned and bound his X hundredth glabrezu isn't someone in the abyss going to take note? As a glabrezu is a greater demon in its own right, capable of bringing ruin to entire empires with its treachery, I wouldn't think they should be ten a penny. When the ritual summoning is interrupted by a balor to teach the wizard a lesson for his effrontery more care may be used.
A lot of these issues don't come up in home games because the party would have dealt with the situation out of game before/once it gets out of hand.
Rhedyn: If the text on Outsiders means anything, I would certainly rule that you can't magic jar Outsiders or Elementals. Story-wise, what is usually and traditionally done to Outsiders is binding them, or being possessed by them, not possessing them. Then again, there is a lot of wonky fluff going around on the issue of souls.
Rhedyn: If the text on Outsiders means anything, I would certainly rule that you can't magic jar Outsiders or Elementals. Story-wise, what is usually and traditionally done to Outsiders is binding them, or being possessed by them, not possessing them. Then again, there is a lot of wonky fluff going around on the issue of souls.
Rules-wise it is cleaner if the spell just works with the fluff handwaved.
It's not like the rules give any indication that outsiders can't use the spell magic jar.
Sometimes "it's magic" is all the excuse you need.
contingencied persistent magic jarContingency works on a spell with a level up to 1/3 your caster level. Persistent Magic Jar is 7th level so minimum caster level 21. Not impossible with items etc., but not something you can do as soon as magic jar comes online at character level 9-10.
I have been using a persistent meta magic rod. My understanding is that rods do not actually increase spell level. I also thought that the only meta magic feat that increases spell level is heighten. Contingency works off of spell level not spell slot. So as long as you don't heighten a spell you should be fine with contingency.
Well, souls and the handling thereof are not exactly fluff in PF. If nothing else, resurrecting someone who already got reincarnated runs into lack of souls. And Outsiders can't be revived by restoring their souls to their bodies, so there is precedent for souls being crunch.
I would also say that Outsiders using magic jar in no way should be a problem either way. Their bodies are souls, and as such would not leave a body behind when they do. The issue is when you try to take the body by magic jarring something that HAS no separate body.
I have been using a persistent meta magic rod. My understanding is that rods do not actually increase spell level. I also thought that the only meta magic feat that increases spell level is heighten. Contingency works off of spell level not spell slot. So as long as you don't heighten a spell you should be fine with contingency.contingencied persistent magic jarContingency works on a spell with a level up to 1/3 your caster level. Persistent Magic Jar is 7th level so minimum caster level 21. Not impossible with items etc., but not something you can do as soon as magic jar comes online at character level 9-10.
Considering spell-storing things don't work if metamagic pushes stuff over their storage limit (even if it's applied by a non-raising method), it seems likely you can't cheat Contingency either.
Well, souls and the handling thereof are not exactly fluff in PF. If nothing else, resurrecting someone who already got reincarnated runs into lack of souls. And Outsiders can't be revived by restoring their souls to their bodies, so there is precedent for souls being crunch.
I would also say that Outsiders using magic jar in no way should be a problem either way. Their bodies are souls, and as such would not leave a body behind when they do. The issue is when you try to take the body by magic jarring something that HAS no separate body.
There are some specific options to possess summoned creatures (which are mainly outsiders), so the intent seems to be to allow it.
Considering spell-storing things don't work if metamagic pushes stuff over their storage limit (even if it's applied by a non-raising method), it seems likely you can't cheat Contingency either.I have been using a persistent meta magic rod. My understanding is that rods do not actually increase spell level. I also thought that the only meta magic feat that increases spell level is heighten. Contingency works off of spell level not spell slot. So as long as you don't heighten a spell you should be fine with contingency.contingencied persistent magic jarContingency works on a spell with a level up to 1/3 your caster level. Persistent Magic Jar is 7th level so minimum caster level 21. Not impossible with items etc., but not something you can do as soon as magic jar comes online at character level 9-10.
I don't think that is the RAW.
Ring of spell storing specifically calls out what happens if you use meta magic. Contingency does not. RAI maybe, maybe, but not RAW.A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total spell levels do not add up to more than 5. Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into the ring of spell storing.
CONTINGENCY
School evocation; Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time at least 10 minutes; see text
Components V, S, M (quicksilver and an eyelash of a spell-using creature), F (ivory statuette of you worth 1,500 gp)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 day/level (D) or until discharged
You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead. You must pay any costs associated with the companion spell when you cast contingency.The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).
The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur. If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when triggered. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.
You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.
The spell level remains the same unless heightened is applied, just the spell slot changes. Using a meta magic rod, neither the spell level nor spell slot changes.
I think the devs have indicated that in general, with metamagic, you use whichever interpretation of caster level is least convenient. For anything bad, it's the higher caster level. For anything good, it's the lower one (except with Heighten Spell).
I think the devs have indicated that in general, with metamagic, you use whichever interpretation of caster level is least convenient. For anything bad, it's the higher caster level. For anything good, it's the lower one (except with Heighten Spell).
My search foo is failing me, do you have a source?
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I am a black-belt master of search-fu
Good job. The relevant passage, of course, is:
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
So a metamagicked spell may not fit into a contingency when the normal one would.
What I am persuaded heavily by is that MichaelCullen is giving real, in game examples. The limitations have been considered and overcome mainly with additional resources - marvelous pigments, power reagents etc - and his GM is on board with it.
Aside from the question of posessing a creature in a magic circle which can be overcomb by making a bargain with the creature I think if the wizard is going to give up four or five mid to high spell slots then fair do's.
It reminds me of the old days of Tyranthraxus. However I still definitely see possession of demons as an evil act. Of other intelligent creatures as well probably.
I am wary of forcing this into too much discussion about alignment as they always seem to descend into wrangles over the meaning of evil.
I had a GM who screwed himself over with the shifting alignment schtick.
He'd sprung a trap on the group, and my Magus's familiar at the time decided to run away. There was nothing I could do about it, no will save for the familiar, or even a grapple check to grab it before it ran out of my coat (The familiar would often hide inside my coat at the start of battle to deliver surprise spell touch attacks when needed, always a nice trump card to have on hand).
When I later tried to sense for my familiar, I got nothing, the part assumed it'd been captured and there was plenty of sympathy towards me, offering to rez my familiar should anything happen, or get me a new one.
A few sessions later, we found the arm of my familiar on a meat hook after having fought a flesh golem.
I was not impressed by the plot twist in the least, and in character said "Eh, guess I'll have to get a new familiar after all.". The DM, who was all smiles up that point, got a little fluster "Hey, that doesn't sound very good of you, I'm thinking you should shift to CN right about now."
Still unimpressed, I said 'sure', and got on with it. CG or CN made little different to me, as it wouldn't exactly change how I played my character.
Finally we get to the big bad who springs a trap, trapping all good-aligned creatures inside an effect similar to Magic Circle against Alignment.
Given that the big bad wizard hadn't thought of any measures past that, I don't think I have to explain what happened afterwards.
I've used magic jar a couple of times. It's really effective when it works, but requires some teamwork and coordination in terms of targeting and protecting your body. It's best used as an infiltration tool in my experience.
The time I've used it was to infiltrate a kings castle, more for recon than anything else. The party cased the place, and saw that inquisitors had free reign of the place. The party's human sorcerer/face, half-orc fighter, and my elf wizard snuck into a nearby basement. I put myself in the gem, with the explicit instructions that the sorcerer hand the gem to an inquisitor (the bluff skill is good). The fighter stood watch over the body until the sorcerer got back.
It requires a lot of trust because the trapped man needs to know that the next person he'll be right next to will be the target. Well, everything went off without a hitch and the wizard was able to enter the castle and scout the place.
The biggest advantages of magic jar over dominate person for espionage is that you have complete control of the character scouting out or infiltrating, and it's much more subtle. You're not getting second hand information from the GM about what the witness is reporting to you, it what your character saw with their own eyes. You're not a crazy person in a robe obviously casting a spell at someone, you're a harmless gem.
I would rather spend one turn on dominate person and double the action economy. Give all the hassle it is to deal with the spell and the fact that my body is just sitting vulnerable elsewhere I don't using it much.
Obviously it's a fine defensive buff, but there are better uses of spell slots. Besides if I am a caster I don't want to be running around in an outsider's body all the time. I'd rather bind and outsider and up the action economy. I could see doing it once just for the fun of it, but I think it's a pretty boring main tactic; but not a spell worth changing or game breaking.
Well there is a couple of reasons the dominate person route would not work well for me.
1 Outsiders are not affected by it.2 It is a 1 round cast just like summons so the called creature will have a turn to act.
3 it requires line of effect unlike magic jar so the emergency force sphere back up plan won't work.
That's a pretty cool use. Were you worried at all about if you physically ended up more than the 100' +10/lvl away from your body when the duration ended? IE - like if the GM really wanted to make you sweat having the inquisitor called to meet the king personally out in the garden or something and delaying to the point where you could be at risk? I probably would have at least chucked a little bit of something like that out there to add a little intensity.I've used magic jar a couple of times. It's really effective when it works, but requires some teamwork and coordination in terms of targeting and protecting your body.
It requires a lot of trust because the trapped man needs to know that the next person he'll be right next to will be the target.
Simultaneously terrified and calm. Certainly there were risks, but I had 9 hours and 190 ft. to work with, could end things as a standard action, and was a wizard with full access to my prepared spells. I could just teleport out of the place if the time started to run down.
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One difference I'm noting with some of these "problem spells" seems to be a style thing - some groups, we'll call them group one, allow the caster to have a basically foolproof plan to eke extra power/abilities out of these effects and want to get on with the game having handwaved these spells as part of prep. Group one has their wizard show up for the day's adventuring already in a magic jar possessed body and having already used their sno-cone wish machines immediately at level 13. This stuff is just prep magic to group one, like a low-level wizard casting mage armor at the dungeon entrance.
Group two, on the other hand, thinks of these kinds of spells as an event. Every use of magic jar and planar binding requires planning, roleplay, and consequences. These are not things you casually handwave as "done," casting these spells is the story. If your morning plan is to summon a demon to possess and ride around in, we are roleplaying out that scenario every time you do it. Personally, I fall into this latter camp.
I see a large amount of overlap between group one and the posters who think high level casters are inherently broken because of these spells, and who think any high level caster is automatically going to gravitate towards these uses. I see a large amount of overlap between group two and posters that think the spells are manageable.
I'm not saying either group is better - obviously play the way that is fun for you. But this might explain why we sometimes seem to be arguing past each other without listening closely - it's a style difference. Wizards in my game aren't ignoring simulacrum and magic jar and planar binding because they're idiots - it's because each casting will take at least an hour of roleplay and if they abuse those spells the world at large will rise up and %*%& them. And in the types of games Anzyr plays in, these tactics just work, so you would be a fool not to use them.
ryic, I agree that people are interpreting the spells somewhat differently, but I think these discussions are largely missing the larger picture. Casters don't have to break, bend, or even go near questionable rules to have incredible power and versatility. Casters are not less powerful because they exist in an ongoing campaign world, they ARE powerful because of their options in a campaign context!
In these threads and others, people come up with some bizarre corner cases and exploits that I think are clearly outside of the intended use of the spells. But these are just a distraction from the many powerful and obvious uses of the spells as intended. I don't have to magic jar a demon, whale with arms, or anything else that might be a problem. In fact, magic jar is probably better used for infiltration and sowing dissent in the enemy then getting a cool flesh battle suit. A cool suit doesn't help you cast spells better anyway, so magic jar is not one of the more powerful spells a caster can use.
In these threads I see a lot of odd attempts to create problems for casters that just don't make sense in the rules or campaign context. Casting an illusion spell is an Evil act? The local peasants will go after you with pitchforks for attacking things while flying? You can't buy some gems for a spell component because the local government knows you are going to cast a 1th level spell with it? And I'm going to just pre-emptively call BS on everyone who comes up with silly "not in the creatures 'nature", arguments once we start discussion Dominate Person. Conversely, there are some spells that have clear language that there could be negative consequences such as planar binding. Other spells such as animate dead, ARE Evil acts, and walking into town with a horde of undead will not be welcome in most civilized lands.
There are some devastatingly powerful, campaign warping spells out there, and there are odd ways to increase and odd ways to decrease all types of magic. Let's not be fooled into thinking everything is OK if you just follow the rules, OR that something is broken because of some bizarre pun-punesq shenanigans. If there are spells that require heavy GM intervention to moderate, it should be written into the spell, not left of GMs to discover after a player uses the spell to it's fullest.
Dont think I'm putting words in GM1990's mouth by saying his intention with these threads was to have a resource where GMs could see what the challenges are around individual spells so that when you come across it in game you can do a quick Google search and find some coping mechanisms.
It was a fervent desire not to ban spells but actually find a work around. This might be because rules are misunderstood, or through homebrew, or campaign context.
What it definitely isn't is a discussion of martial vs caster power. I wouldn't expect every GM to agree with every solution presented on these threads - there is hopefully a selection to choose from. If nothing else they are threads sharing war stories. MichaelM's glabrezu riding has given me lots of ideas for example and are fun to read. Theory crafting about anthroposophical blue whales are not so engaging.
I look forward to discussing domination with you! ; p
I would rather spend one turn on dominate person and double the action economy. Give all the hassle it is to deal with the spell and the fact that my body is just sitting vulnerable elsewhere I don't using it much.
This is my feeling also. Never really figured out how to use this in combat and keep my scrawny, caster's body safe.
This spell has totally awesome flavour, I'd love to try it in game but it just seems too risky except in certain carefully pre-arranged circumstances, which lessen its shock and awe value.
If anybody has any tips on how to use in combat, I'm all ears.
I would rather spend one turn on dominate person and double the action economy. Give all the hassle it is to deal with the spell and the fact that my body is just sitting vulnerable elsewhere I don't using it much.
This is my feeling also. Never really figured out how to use this in combat and keep my scrawny, caster's body safe.
This spell has totally awesome flavour, I'd love to try it in game but it just seems too risky except in certain carefully pre-arranged circumstances, which lessen its shock and awe value.
If anybody has any tips on how to use in combat, I'm all ears.
As a psychic caster you can chain possessions to get a safe effect. Go to your inn room with a cat or bird or something, possess it, have your party exit the room with the animal, later you possess the humanoid or whatever you actually want. Your body is still safe far away, and the now released animal isn't going to tell anyone anything.
I would rather spend one turn on dominate person and double the action economy. Give all the hassle it is to deal with the spell and the fact that my body is just sitting vulnerable elsewhere I don't using it much.
This is my feeling also. Never really figured out how to use this in combat and keep my scrawny, caster's body safe.
This spell has totally awesome flavour, I'd love to try it in game but it just seems too risky except in certain carefully pre-arranged circumstances, which lessen its shock and awe value.
If anybody has any tips on how to use in combat, I'm all ears.
It's not a spell you cast during combat. It's a spell you cast to start combat. You hide yourself and your stupid meat body somewhere in the dungeon outside of a room you want to clear out. You then put yourself into a gem, and have the rogue take the gem and throw you under a door into a room with all the bad guys like a grenade.
Possess an enemy and start attacking his allies. When you first target dies, you just possess the next guy and repeat. Go until you run out of targets who can fail the save or everyone is dead. Then you end the spell and storm the room full of weakened or eliminated targets.
It's not a spell you cast during combat. It's a spell you cast to start combat. You hide yourself and your stupid meat body somewhere in the dungeon outside of a room you want to clear out. You then put yourself into a gem, and have the rogue take the gem and throw you under a door into a room with all the bad guys like a grenade.
Possess an enemy and start attacking his allies. When you first target dies, you just possess the next guy and repeat. Go until you run out of targets who can fail the save or everyone is dead. Then you end the spell and storm the room full of weakened or eliminated targets.
And nobody ever gets the bright idea to crush the gem that was tossed through the door just before the havoc started?
Worst case scenario; it's another caster in the room. He makes the trivial spellcraft check, picks up the gem, and teleports. Your party wizard dies when the spell terminates, no saving throw.
So after rampaging through the dungeon and moving 200 ft away from your body in your squishy, vulnerable-no-magic-items-Meat-Jacket. Someone casts dispel magic on you with a 50/50 or better chance of success and you are dead.
That's if rats aren't nibbling on your face. If you put your body in an extra dimensional space you're dead irrespective of distance.
Yes possession removes the distance penalty (though you still can't use extra dimensional spaces) but it also limits the spell to one creature rather than moving from creature to creature like magic jar.
Apologies if this has already been asked...
What happens to the caster's body during Greater Possession? Does it, for example, age? I know it appears dead with regular possession.
I ask for obvious reasons. ;)
It's not a spell you cast during combat. It's a spell you cast to start combat. You hide yourself and your stupid meat body somewhere in the dungeon outside of a room you want to clear out. You then put yourself into a gem, and have the rogue take the gem and throw you under a door into a room with all the bad guys like a grenade.
Possess an enemy and start attacking his allies. When you first target dies, you just possess the next guy and repeat. Go until you run out of targets who can fail the save or everyone is dead. Then you end the spell and storm the room full of weakened or eliminated targets.
And nobody ever gets the bright idea to crush the gem that was tossed through the door just before the havoc started?
Worst case scenario; it's another caster in the room. He makes the trivial spellcraft check, picks up the gem, and teleports. Your party wizard dies when the spell terminates, no saving throw.
In the first case: It's possible, but chaos is chaos, and if you're worried about that you can always do the really crazy thing of throwing in more than one gem. Or the gem could be hard to see in a dimly lit room, or tossed out of easy reach, or you could wait for something to happen that would spark a fight, etc. Depending on the range and size of the room, he could also just put it under the door so that the wizard has vision into the room, but the gem wouldn't be visible. You could also just leave it as a horde of gems as a trap.
In the second case, unless the gem lands right at the feet of another spellcaster who has teleport or dimension door prepared (who would probably be an ECL challenge for the party if there are mooks), it would take two move actions to walk over to and pick up the gem. Standard action to end the spell. You shouldn't use the spell if there is a spellcaster in the other room in the first place, though.
We've done it once. Did it to mook guards. We didn't do it again. GM was pretty open about it, and basically had the mooks dogpile the guy who was possessed. Ran out of people who could successfully pass the save before the wizard cleared out the room. It was still a massive time sink and spotlight hog, so I didn't do it again.
In the second case, unless the gem lands right at the feet of another spellcaster who has teleport or dimension door prepared (who would probably be an ECL challenge for the party if there are mooks), it would take two move actions to walk over to and pick up the gem. Standard action to end the spell. You shouldn't use the spell if there is a spellcaster in the other room in the first place, though.
Both Teleport and Dimension Door have a range of touch, which can be done as part of casting the spell. Move action to get to the gem, standard action to cast. Delivering the touch does not require a separate action and the gem is unattended.
I make the assumption that most arcane casters are intelligent and will act in accordance with that intelligence. Both are spells that a caster would typically already have prepared, and the usage should be obvious for any caster with APL appropriate skill levels in Spellcraft and knowledge Arcana.
Identifying the spell might be more challenging for a roomful of martials, but even without spellcraft, having a gem tossed in the room by an unknown agency just before all hell breaks loose is going to raise concerns in an intelligent opponent. He may not be able to identify the cause as "Magic Jar", but he's more than likely to figure out, "That gem started the problems."
If you are fighting low intelligence mooks, the tactic will most likely work. Smarter foes, much less likely.
In the second case, unless the gem lands right at the feet of another spellcaster who has teleport or dimension door prepared (who would probably be an ECL challenge for the party if there are mooks), it would take two move actions to walk over to and pick up the gem. Standard action to end the spell. You shouldn't use the spell if there is a spellcaster in the other room in the first place, though.
Both Teleport and Dimension Door have a range of touch, which can be done as part of casting the spell. Move action to get to the gem, standard action to cast. Delivering the touch does not require a separate action and the gem is unattended.
I make the assumption that most arcane casters are intelligent and will act in accordance with that intelligence. Both are spells that a caster would typically already have prepared, and the usage should be obvious for any caster with APL appropriate skill levels in Spellcraft and knowledge Arcana.
Identifying the spell might be more challenging for a roomful of martials, but even without spellcraft, having a gem tossed in the room by an unknown agency just before all hell breaks loose is going to raise concerns in an intelligent opponent. He may not be able to identify the cause as "Magic Jar", but he's more than likely to figure out, "That gem started the problems."
If you are fighting low intelligence mooks, the tactic will most likely work. Smarter foes, much less likely.
There's some strategy you can use if you want to deal with the wizard or sorcerer (which it basically has to be because divine transport spells suck), but I wouldn't recommend using the strategy against them. I wouldn't recommend using magic jar against anything that can teleport for that matter.
The two things to try are
1. Grab the wizard/sorcerer on the first go. Because most casters focus on casting stat/Con/Dex, their will saves are usually pretty mediocre in my play experience. Obviously you shouldn't try this with a cleric or druid who will probably only have a 20-30% chance of failing the saving throw. The wizard will have a 50/50 shot, probably.
2. Grab the fighter next to the spellcaster. Basically you try to force the guy to eat AOOs and distract him and such. I honestly don't like this plan because most characters will just eat the AOOs to deal with a party killing threat. It is an option, though.
Keep in mind that if you're dealing with a spellcaster who can cast dimension door or teleport +mooks, you're dealing with an APL encounter of at least 9th level or higher. You shouldn't expect to be able to outright win an APL encounter with a single spell. Honestly, a APL Arcane caster + his buddies sounds more like a miniboss than a generic encounter.