Hello friends! I have a simple question with no apparent answer.
In Bestiary 1, p.164, the Wood Golem has an attack called Splintering with the stipulation that a REF 14 check will halve the damage, and a save DC that is Constitution-based. The problem is... he has no CON score. It's just a dash ( - ).
Can someone help me with how this works? Do my characters roll REF and then CON? What's the CON DC?
Thank you! -Cyg
The "save DC is Constitution-based." means that the REF DC for the ability will goes up if the attacking creature has higher CON. If you wants to reverse engineer the process REF 14 DC came from 10 + 4 (half Golem HD) + 0 (CON).
Also check out Construct traits.
Any DCs or other statistics that rely on a Constitution score treat a construct as having a score of 10 (no bonus or penalty).
Should I generally treat ALL creatures with an absent save score as 10, or is this a Construct-specific thing?
Should I generally treat ALL creatures with an absent save score as 10, or is this a Construct-specific thing?
That applies to any creature with a score of -.
Strength measures muscle and physical power. This ability is important for those who engage in hand-to-hand (or "melee") combat, such as fighters, monks, paladins, and some rangers. Strength also sets the maximum amount of weight your character can carry. A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.
Constitution represents your character's health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character's hit points, so the ability is important for all classes. Some creatures, such as undead and constructs, do not have a Constitution score. Their modifier is +0 for any Constitution-based checks. A character with a Constitution score of 0 is dead.
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects their spellcasting ability in many ways. Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose. Some creatures do not possess an Intelligence score. Their modifier is +0 for any Intelligence-based skills or checks.
Every creature has a wisdom, dexterity, and charisma score. Only strength, constitution,and intelligence have the possibility of a - score.
Strange that they did that for a golem though.
Thank you all! Makes much more sense now :)
To clarify as well, with the attack described above, how do the PCs order the rolls for the REF and CON save? Do they choose one, do both, does one affect the other...?
Thank you all! Makes much more sense now :)
To clarify as well, with the attack described above, how do the PCs order the rolls for the REF and CON save? Do they choose one, do both, does one affect the other...?
There is no Con save. A "constitution-based save" just means the save DC is based on the attacking creatures constitution score. There is only a Reflex save.
The save DC of a special ability is: 10 + 1/2 the attackers hit dice + certain ability score modifier. In this case, that ability score is constitution. So the save dc is: 10 (base) + 4 (1/2 the golems hit dice) + 0 (for the golems constitution modifier of +0) = 14. A DC 14 reflex save.
Should I generally treat ALL creatures with an absent save score as 10, or is this a Construct-specific thing?Absent score is 0 (-5 mod) unless otherwise specified.
No, an absent score has a +0 modifier. I even posted the relevant sections in a post above.
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That's strictly false James.
- is very much not zero
To be fair, I did say unless otherwise specified.
Let me rephrase my statement, reviewing Bestiary I you find creatures without Str, Con, and Int. We also have rules to handle 2 of the 3 fully:
- Con: Construct specify 10 for - Con and Undead specifies Cha for - Con
- Int: Skill point chart specifies essentially 0 for - (no skill points gained; where 10 would gain some)
- Str: From Incorporeal = "It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB" which doesn't give us a rule for a ghost using a ghost touch weapon. Assuming 0 or 10 are both equally "not RAW". Since there is no rule.
Since I couldn't find a general rule, and only the Skill (Int) rule, I retract my general "if not said = 0" statement.
There is no Con save. A "constitution-based save" just means the save DC is based on the attacking creatures constitution score. There is only a Reflex save.
So then a party member would roll d20+REF Bonus and compare that to the creature's CON score?
There is no Con save. A "constitution-based save" just means the save DC is based on the attacking creatures constitution score. There is only a Reflex save.So then a party member would roll d20+REF Bonus and compare that to the creature's CON score?
No.
"based on" is not the same thing as the actual score. The formula is 10+half HD+ability modifier. As stated above, because constructs treat their con score as 10 for abilities DCs that means it is 10+4+0 or 14.As an alternative example lets assume the same ability is on an otherwise identical, but non-construct, creature with a constitution score of 12. The DC would then be 10+4+1 or 15.
There is no Con save. A "constitution-based save" just means the save DC is based on the attacking creatures constitution score. There is only a Reflex save.So then a party member would roll d20+REF Bonus and compare that to the creature's CON score?
Dude it has been explained, if you still don't get it after dragonhunterq's explanation I just don't know. The whole phrase in the stat block it is just not that important unless you fiddle with the stats of the creature.
The most important thing is that when the golem uses it's ability the characters affected make a reflex save. The DC of that save (inother words the number they need to roll including their reflex mod) is 14. Period end of story. That's all you really need to know unless this is some unique variant of the monster you are creating (which I doubt).
To sum it up:
step 1 golem uses it's splintering ability.
step 2 characters roll 1d20 and add their reflex modifier.
step 3 compare their score to 14. If it is equal or higher they take half damage, if it is lower they take full damage.
step 4 roll and apply damage.
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There is no Con save. A "constitution-based save" just means the save DC is based on the attacking creatures constitution score. There is only a Reflex save.So then a party member would roll d20+REF Bonus and compare that to the creature's CON score?Dude it has been explained, if you still don't get it after dragonhunterq's explanation I just don't know. The whole phrase in the stat block it is just not that important unless you fiddle with the stats of the creature.
The most important thing is that when the golem uses it's ability the characters affected make a reflex save. The DC of that save (inother words the number they need to roll including their reflex mod) is 14. Period end of story. That's all you really need to know unless this is some unique variant of the monster you are creating (which I doubt).
To sum it up:
step 1 golem uses it's splintering ability.
step 2 characters roll 1d20 and add their reflex modifier.
step 3 compare their score to 14. If it is equal or higher they take half damage, if it is lower they take full damage.
step 4 roll and apply damage.
Generally, you can ignore the mention of "constitution- based" unless you're messing about with the creature's stats.
if you were to change the creature such that it had a con score other than -, 10 or 1 it would change the save.
There is no Con save. A "constitution-based save" just means the save DC is based on the attacking creatures constitution score. There is only a Reflex save.So then a party member would roll d20+REF Bonus and compare that to the creature's CON score?
Please read the rest of my post you quoted (or the posts of the other people that also explained it). I'll post it again:
The save DC of a special ability is: 10 + 1/2 the attackers hit dice + certain ability score modifier. In this case, that ability score is constitution. So the save dc is: 10 (base) + 4 (1/2 the golems hit dice) + 0 (for the golems constitution modifier of +0) = 14. A DC 14 reflex save.
To sum it up:
step 1 golem uses it's splintering ability.
step 2 characters roll 1d20 and add their reflex modifier.
step 3 compare their score to 14. If it is equal or higher they take half damage, if it is lower they take full damage.
step 4 roll and apply damage.
THIS is what I've needed! Thank you! I was under the impression that there was a CON way to avoid the damage completely for some reason. Thanks!
There is no Con save. A "constitution-based save" just means the save DC is based on the attacking creatures constitution score. There is only a Reflex save.So then a party member would roll d20+REF Bonus and compare that to the creature's CON score?No.
"based on" is not the same thing as the actual score. The formula is 10+half HD+ability modifier. As stated above, because constructs treat their con score as 10 for abilities DCs that means it is 10+4+0 or 14.
As an alternative example lets assume the same ability is on an otherwise identical, but non-construct, creature with a constitution score of 12. The DC would then be 10+4+1 or 15.Can you provide some examples of the step-by-step process to determine damage in this case? Sorry to bother, but I'm still very new to this.
For examples, the Wood Golem has a dash ( - ) for CON stats. "Splintering causes 6d6 points of Slashing damage (Reflex DC 14 halves). The save DC is Constitution-based." Our PC has FORT +1 REF +2 WILL +3, and +2 for all Ability Modifiers. If the Golem uses Splintering, what are the possible outcomes, and how do I figure them out?
The golem attacks a PC for . Ouch! (actually, that's dead-on average, but still painful.)
He (the PC) rolls a against a target of 14 as discussed above. Since he made it, he takes 21/2 (round down) points, or 10 points, of slashing damage.
If he had rolled a 2 instead, he would have taken the full boat of damage.
The golem attacks a PC for [dice=6d6 of Slashing Damage]6d6. Ouch! (actually, that's dead-on average, but still painful.)
He (the PC) rolls a [dice=Reflex save of +2]d20+2 against a target of 14 as discussed above. Since he made it, he takes 21/2 (round down) points, or 10 points, of slashing damage.
If he had rolled a 2 instead, he would have taken the full boat of damage.
Thank you! I see you saw this post before I deleted it (since I immediately saw that someone had already replied with similar info). Thank you for being so awesomely in-depth!