Loremaster fighter is something which has been noted as gaining 'too much' relative to what it gives up. I think this makes the class/archetype barely useful rather than OP but opinions do differ.
Spirit Guide oracle is a straight win, as is Menhir Savant druid and Empiricist Investigator. The core monk absolutely needs one of its archetypes - Sohei, Sensei, Zen Archer and Tetori all have their points. For a rogue Scout is something I'd assume unless you want a different archetype which conflicts with it. Hexcrafter is something I would usually want on a magus, the hex more than makes up for the endurance lost by giving up spell recall.
On the downside I'd say at least half the archetypes should never be taken, if you just want their flavor you can achieve it without the archetype. With 40+ classes I wouldn't want to try listing all of them though,
The post errata scarred witchdoctor can be very strong depending on how you and your GM decide on how the mask is supposed to work. As written it doesn't work at all but instead of fixing this error the archetype just got a buff.
The stonelord paladin (while very flavorful) is a downgrade because his stone servant is way too weak at low and medium levels when compared to the paladin mount. His Stone strike is weaker than smite evil as well and his other abilities don't make up for it.
In addition to that he has an ability that does nothing as written because he only gets earth channel which does nothing on itself. It only changed channel energy which the stonelord does not get. Easily fixed but still..
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Evangelists are very powerful built right, though the base Cleric is strong enough to be pretty even. A Heroism subdomain Evangelist built as a "Reach Cleric" can get ludicrous action economy and summon heavily buffed critters as a standard action via Sacred Summons. Most Cleric Archetypes are pretty bad but the Evangelist is a badass.
Mutation Warrior is leagues better than straight fighter
Mutation Warrior is leagues better than straight fighter
At least until Armor Master's Handbook makes armor training a more attractive feature. Then we'll need to see where the buff leaves base fighter.
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The post errata scarred witchdoctor can be very strong depending on how you and your GM decide on how the mask is supposed to work. As written it doesn't work at all but instead of fixing this error the archetype just got a buff.
As written the mask should work like a familiar but it lacks the necessary stats. It works well if you treat it like a bonded object instead thou and the additional spell per day makes it a nice alternative to a familiar.
Her fetish mask acts in all ways like a witch's familiar for the purpose of preparing and gaining spells.
The mask only allows you to prepare spells from it. It's more like a regular spell book than a familiar. See also the Cartomancer archetype that replaces your familiar with a deck of cards.
You give up some of the benefits of having a familiar running around to reduce the risks involved with a familiar running around.
The post errata scarred witchdoctor can be very strong depending on how you and your GM decide on how the mask is supposed to work. As written it doesn't work at all but instead of fixing this error the archetype just got a buff.
As written the mask should work like a familiar but it lacks the necessary stats. It works well if you treat it like a bonded object instead thou and the additional spell per day makes it a nice alternative to a familiar.
Her fetish mask acts in all ways like a witch's familiar for the purpose of preparing and gaining spells.The mask only allows you to prepare spells from it. It's more like a regular spell book than a familiar. See also the Cartomancer archetype that replaces your familiar with a deck of cards.
You give up some of the benefits of having a familiar running around to reduce the risks involved with a familiar running around.
You seem to ignore this:
This ability otherwise functions like and replaces the standard witch familiar.
For everything not mentioned in the "fetish mask" section it funktions like a familiar. So, for example, it can use skills like a familiar (using which stats?).
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Archetypes are supposed to be balancedCitation needed, otherwise it's a false statment.
But I agree that some archtypes are just straight better than the vanilla class. Grenadier for the Alchemist is a good example.
Agreed, remember Paladins can trade Divine Grace for Speaking Celestial.
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Agreed, remember Paladins can trade Divine Grace for Speaking Celestial.Archetypes are supposed to be balancedCitation needed, otherwise it's a false statment.
But I agree that some archtypes are just straight better than the vanilla class. Grenadier for the Alchemist is a good example.
Come on. They don't get linguistics as a class skill, so that would save them an otherwise wasted skill point!
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You seem to ignore this:
This ability otherwise functions like and replaces the standard witch familiar.For everything not mentioned in the "fetish mask" section it funktions like a familiar. So, for example, it can use skills like a familiar (using which stats?).
It is mentioned that the mask is an object. It is not a creature, so it doesn't get skills/stats...
I think you are reading too much into the standard archetype replacement line.
For the Inquisitor, Sanctified Slayer and Sacred Huntsmaster are both clear wins over the base class. Mostly because Judgement is an absolute turd and both of those archetypes replace Judgement with something that doesn't suck.
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Thing is I feel the Designers and the players have different view on what is "strong". I feel the Designers feel the ability to use poison must be a pretty good thing. Most players feel it's too weak to matter. Thus anything that trades poison use for something else will be viewed as better. Same with traps, dealing with traps, making traps, and having bonuses when dealing with traps are things that the seem to feel are good. But again, many players don't care so are willing to get rid of it.
Also some archetypes focus into a niche more than the general class, but most players play into that niche already, so it's just an upgrade to what you were doing already.
EDIT:
I have a perfect example of this.
So Owen and I had this conversation when I was first writing the AWTs, and what we basically both agreed on is this:
Weapon training itself is FAR more powerful than people give it credit for, mostly because its power is spread across multiple weapons rather than condensed onto one. A +1 bonus on attack rolls is equivalent to Weapon Focus, while a +1 bonus on damage rolls is equivalent to half a feat because Weapon Specialization is worth +2 damage. This means that your first weapon training is effectively worth 1.5 feats times X, where X is equal to the number of weapons in the weapon group that you chose. You also get those effective feats whenever your bonus in an existing group rises or when you select a new group.
The PDT consists of smart people; they knew this already when they designed the first fighter archetypes...
I agree with most of your reasoning but the bolded part leaves me dubious: while it's true that weapon training is a good ability, the best the fighter has, saying it counst as 1 feat and half spread on multiple weapons doesn't really mean much. The way the game works getting a single +1 to hit and +1 dmg isn't that great, especially not at level 5. It's good because you can stack it with all the other feats/traits/magical weapon qualities, not by itself. So, generally speaking, weapon training will work great with ONE weapon anyway, while the rest of the weapon group will be ignored BECAUSE you can't stack feats on all those other weapon types (you put weapon focus and weapon specialization on greatsword, whielding a bastard sword isn't going to be great even if you get an additional +1 to hit and to damage).
Also, weapon training is something a fighter gets at level 5, if it's worth 1 and "half feat" what about studied target for slayer? How much is that worth then? It comes at first lvl, progresses 5 times (and not 4) up to level 20, allows to mark several opponents at once as it progresses, gives you a +1 +1 to hit/damage just like weapon training for one move action but it's not dependant on a weapon (you get disarmed and you lose all your bonuses).
This is why trading the upgrades away was so nice because then you'd actually get something you'd use. But to the designers it's an equally strong option.
Agreed, remember Paladins can trade Divine Grace for Speaking Celestial.Archetypes are supposed to be balancedCitation needed, otherwise it's a false statment.
But I agree that some archtypes are just straight better than the vanilla class. Grenadier for the Alchemist is a good example.
This example always really annoyed me. Classes don't have individual ACFs in this game. Archetypes are packages of features and Empyreal Knight isn't even bad in the first place.
This example always really annoyed me. Classes don't have individual ACFs in this game. Archetypes are packages of features and Empyreal Knight isn't even bad in the first place.Agreed, remember Paladins can trade Divine Grace for Speaking Celestial.Archetypes are supposed to be balancedCitation needed, otherwise it's a false statment.
But I agree that some archtypes are just straight better than the vanilla class. Grenadier for the Alchemist is a good example.
It's annoying because it highlights imbalance.
Divine Grace is +2 to +7 on ALL SAVING THROWS. It's a monstrously powerful defensive class ability, arguably the best saving throw buff in the WHOLE GAME.
What are you trading it for?
==Aelryinth
For the Inquisitor, Sanctified Slayer and Sacred Huntsmaster are both clear wins over the base class. Mostly because Judgement is an absolute turd and both of those archetypes replace Judgement with something that doesn't suck.I haven't heard that judgement is so terrible. What's so bad about it?
It's comparing it to what you're trading it for.
Judgement is a one fight per day thing that gives a small but flexible bonus. It eventually scales to be usable more times and slightly bigger bonuses and eventually you can use more than one bonus at a time.Studied Target is like combining two of the judgements into one and it scales to a swift just like judgement and it can be used on everyone every fight.
Or you could get a full animal companion that shares your teamwork feats and a free enhancement bonus.
So judgement isn't terrible just the what you get seems better.
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The inquisitor is infamous for having archetypes that overshadow base classes. The monster tactician is a better summoner than the summoner class.
On the flip side, I don't know of a single class that gets inquisitor judgement in an archetype. I don't remember another class getting solo tactics either. There may be something else that gets bane as a class feature.
It seems that inquisitor is just the favored child of the design team.
It's annoying because it highlights imbalance.
Divine Grace is +2 to +7 on ALL SAVING THROWS. It's a monstrously powerful defensive class ability, arguably the best saving throw buff in the WHOLE GAME.
What are you trading it for?
==Aelryinth
But it's not a fundamental imbalance. Because it's only one component of a package. Saying Empyreal Knight is a joke because it trades Divine Grace for Celestial is like saying Empyreal Knight is broken because it gains bonuses to their mount for free.
An archetype is a package of features and it seems very disingenuous to talk about only one aspect of that package and ignore the rest.
On the flip side, I don't know of a single class that gets inquisitor judgement in an archetype. I don't remember another class getting solo tactics either. There may be something else that gets bane as a class feature.
It seems that inquisitor is just the favored child of the design team.
Weapon Master's Handbook has some analogs to Solo Tactics in it. Inquisitor is definitely one of the better designed and better balanced paizo classes though, yeah.
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On the flip side, I don't know of a single class that gets inquisitor judgement in an archetype. I don't remember another class getting solo tactics either. There may be something else that gets bane as a class feature.
It seems that inquisitor is just the favored child of the design team.
Fighter can get solo tactics now as an advanced weapon training.
It's annoying because it highlights imbalance.
Divine Grace is +2 to +7 on ALL SAVING THROWS. It's a monstrously powerful defensive class ability, arguably the best saving throw buff in the WHOLE GAME.
What are you trading it for?
==Aelryinth
But it's not a fundamental imbalance. Because it's only one component of a package. Saying Empyreal Knight is a joke because it trades Divine Grace for Celestial is like saying Empyreal Knight is broken because it gains bonuses to their mount for free.
An archetype is a package of features and it seems very disingenuous to talk about only one aspect of that package and ignore the rest.
Weapon Master's Handbook has some analogs to Solo Tactics in it. Inquisitor is definitely one of the better designed and better balanced paizo classes though, yeah.On the flip side, I don't know of a single class that gets inquisitor judgement in an archetype. I don't remember another class getting solo tactics either. There may be something else that gets bane as a class feature.
It seems that inquisitor is just the favored child of the design team.
Which is why I asked...what ARE you trading it for?
Because as it stands, if you take 3 levels of Paladin, the rest of the package DOES NOT MATTER, and you've made a horrible trade.
So, yeah, the whole Package MIGHT be worth the trade...but the fact remains that at the moment you made the trade, the package SUCKS, and it might stop right there. Giving up something awesome now for something nice you might not ever see is not a trade.
==Aelryinth
Another thread similar to this one has developed around the same time. Maybe merge?
Which is why I asked...what ARE you trading it for?
Because as it stands, if you take 3 levels of Paladin, the rest of the package DOES NOT MATTER, and you've made a horrible trade.
So, yeah, the whole Package MIGHT be worth the trade...but the fact remains that at the moment you made the trade, the package SUCKS, and it might stop right there. Giving up something awesome now for something nice you might not ever see is not a trade.
==Aelryinth
it's just like taking Combat Expertise when you know you don't want it and will never use it... you want Improved Trip later you take Combat Expertise now... You want Celestial Heart & Ally later? you lose Divine Grace now.
For the Inquisitor, Sanctified Slayer and Sacred Huntsmaster are both clear wins over the base class. Mostly because Judgement is an absolute turd and both of those archetypes replace Judgement with something that doesn't suck.I haven't heard that judgement is so terrible. What's so bad about it?It's comparing it to what you're trading it for.
Judgement is a one fight per day thing that gives a small but flexible bonus. It eventually scales to be usable more times and slightly bigger bonuses and eventually you can use more than one bonus at a time.Studied Target is like combining two of the judgements into one and it scales to a swift just like judgement and it can be used on everyone every fight.
Or you could get a full animal companion that shares your teamwork feats and a free enhancement bonus.
So judgement isn't terrible just the what you get seems better.
Spot on. The issue with Judgement is it's a pretty insignificant bonus, which is further nerfed by only being available once or twice a day. Compared to other x/day abilities (looking at you, Smite Evil), it's really pretty sad. There was no need to limit judgement to once or twice a day, considering how little you get from it.
That's why a number of inquisitor archetypes are better than the base class: it's pretty easy to come up with abilities that outperform judgement.
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Isn't the number of uses per day of smite and judgement the same.
Judgement is also better vs multiple enemies as it lasts till the end of combat.
Yep, the number of uses are the same, but in my opinion, Smite provides so much more bang for the buck than judgement does. This is all just personal opinion of course, but I'm playing an Inquisitor now, and unfortunately for me, my GM doesn't allow any of the archetypes from the ACG. However, when I did a side by side comparison of the base Inquisitor vs Sacred Huntsmaster or Sanctified Slayer, it's plain to see how far behind the basic inquisitor is.
Yep, the number of uses are the same, but in my opinion, Smite provides so much more bang for the buck than judgement does. This is all just personal opinion of course, but I'm playing an Inquisitor now, and unfortunately for me, my GM doesn't allow any of the archetypes from the ACG. However, when I did a side by side comparison of the base Inquisitor vs Sacred Huntsmaster or Sanctified Slayer, it's plain to see how far behind the basic inquisitor is.
Not only the basic inquisitor falls behind the sacred huntsmaster but the hunter does, too.
Empyreal Knight is a trash archetype
You could argue that you have to look at the sum of what it gets in comparison to the sum of what gives up, but an extremely limited Summon Monster 3 levels behind barely makes up for Lay On Hands + Mercies + Channel, so giving up Divine Grace for a language makes the whole ridiculous
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Not only the basic inquisitor falls behind the sacred huntsmaster but the hunter does, too.
Disagree. The hunter has a much better spell list to play with than the inquisitor, the inquisitor doesn't gain bonus tricks for their AC, have less teamwork feats than the hunter, and slower access to Animal Focus and Raise Animal Companion.
Granted the Inquisitor is more powerful individually with bane, but the Hunter's companion is more powerful and they have better ways to buff it.
They are about equal in overall power, and which one is "better" is really just a matter of personal taste.
Eldritch Archer is pretty broken both compared to the normal magus and the rest of the game.
Bladebound magus gives up a low level magus arcana and arcane pool scaling to gain a free magic weapon that gets better as you level up. As if that's not enough, they also gain a bunch of other abilities, like being able to convert all weapon damage into energy damage. Oh, and the weapon is intelligent and basically acts like a familiar without the risk of it dying. The archetype isn't broken or overwhelmingly overpowered, but it definitely gains a lot more than it loses.
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Eldritch Archer is pretty broken both compared to the normal magus and the rest of the game.
It's really not, and here is an excellent post explaining why.
Huntmaster with the animal/feather domain has an advance of 2X-3, but IIRC it is limited by the Character level or that the AC's HD cannot surpass yours.
Eldritch Archer is pretty broken both compared to the normal magus and the rest of the game.It's really not, and here is an excellent post explaining why.
I know. I was part of that discussion, and already made my rebuttal to that thread, which also applies to Alexander Augunas's argument. Neither argument addresses the major problem with Eldritch Archer. The issue isn't that they're as good at ranged combat as a martial or that they can spell nova from afar. The issue is that they can do both. The class balances magus's powerful action economy abilities by restricting the class to melee combat. Eldritch Archer takes away that massive restriction at no significant trade off. I respect Augunas -- I'm a big fan of his work -- but even by his own admission, his argument is bias towards wanting more character options over accessing the design integrity of the archetype in question.
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Yep, the number of uses are the same, but in my opinion, Smite provides so much more bang for the buck than judgement does. This is all just personal opinion of course, but I'm playing an Inquisitor now, and unfortunately for me, my GM doesn't allow any of the archetypes from the ACG. However, when I did a side by side comparison of the base Inquisitor vs Sacred Huntsmaster or Sanctified Slayer, it's plain to see how far behind the basic inquisitor is.
In straight up damage you are 100% correct.. The versatility of the judgement is still pretty handy if you aren't going balls tot he wall DPS though I've seen decent Tanquisitors pull bodyguard duty using the three defensive judgements <AC DR Healing> since the scout knife master was the main enemy blender in that game
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Inquisitor judgement is a great feature. It's flexible and lasts an entire combat. It may not stack up to uber-optimized power-gamers, but that seems more an issue of player expectation than the class.