Power of my Pride


Advice


Hello everyone, and thanks in advance for your time and advice.

I want to build a bloodrager of the I rager archetype (trades in bloodline for Phantom powers) with the Pride focus (from occult realms).

(Sorry I can't provide links as they don't seem to be in the PDR yet)

Is it a good idea? What are some suggestions to further define this build?

I'm tempted to go halfling, as the "can't touch me" fcb seems flavourful, but I'm wary of making a small damage-dealer.


Here's the id rager archetype, but I couldn't find the Pride focus anywhere online yet. I would be happy to help if you could post the defining powers of Pride phantoms (most noteworthy benefits/limitations), plus material allowed (any 3rd party stuff?) starting and approximate ending level of campaign, any info on other party members etc and perhaps your thoughts (if any) on what you would like the build to focus on, mechanically speaking.

In general, it appears to me that at least with the phantom variants found in Occult Adventures, a single-classed id rager is severely crippled by its lack of a slam attack. Which means you cannot access a vast majority of the options/powers that would actually be useful to a melee frontliner like the bloodrager. Though I've seen a dev post (explicitly NOT errata, FAQ or in any way official) that this is at least the current RAW in his opinion, it seems this was unintentional, as it forces the archetype into near uselessness and/or an extremely limited number of viable build options, while I think giving it the phantom's two slam attacks for free at first level wouldn't be overpowered in any way. Especially considering the significant risks of (and/or required additional feat investments for) psychic casting on the frontlines.

If the Pride focus has powers relying on slam, I think there are two possible solutions: either you're forced to trade two levels of bloodrager and an arm for two levels of alchemist and a slam attack (though you'd also get a tasty mutagen and some other minor goodies), or you can talk to your DM into clarifying/houseruling the archetype so the slams are included. Unless this is for PFS, I'd very much recommend the latter alternative.

If you do get native slam attacks and aren't fully set on Pride, I think the Fear focus could be made into a frighteningly (literally) effective Intimidate debuff/damage build. If combined with Soulless Gaze, Cornugon Smash, Intimidating Prowess and a few natural attack related feats and some additional attacks from race/items/dips, it should be able to scare/bite/slam/sting most non-immune enemies to death. And if Path of War stuff is on the table, the Black Seraph style feats could turn you into a true monster nightmare, able to make even the most dangerous epic level legendary opponents cower in fear.

Hmm... I even believe this could actually even turn you into a Paizo-based martial debuff specialist able to excel beyond the Fear phantom's flavor text as well as that of most specialized casters, a highly unusual achievement indeed. Interesting...

Silver Crusade Contributor

I was considering replacing the 4th level bonus save feat with the two slams, myself.

However, in this case, it's nothing to worry about - none of the pride emotional focus abilities depend on slams at all.

(An issue is that, super-technically, pride isn't on the list of emotional focuses an id rager can take. I doubt anyone will enforce that, but it's there.)


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When I first saw the pride emotional focus, I thought some of the benefits were really strong (double morale bonuses, holy cow!), but then I realized that you're really likely to wind up failing a passively-required check and lose the benefits (and take penalties), whether it's failing a Perception check against one out of eight monsters who rolled really high on Stealth (and thus acting on the surprise round but not knowing about the eighth guy), failing a Sense Motive against something's Bluff, etc, so I'd suggest caution with using it (it also prevents you from ever Taking 20 while the benefits are up, since there is always a consequence of failure). It could be quite effective on a phantom, where you could have it in your consciousness and not able to attempt any checks (and thus fail them), but it's trickier if it's on your main character (plus you can't avoid morale bonuses as a bloodrager).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

This is an interesting archetype, but I'm a little confused.

Does the id rager gain the abilities of both a spiritualist with a phantom out and a phantom or just the abilities of a phantom?

Did I read it correctly that the spell list isn't changed, only the components changed to be psychic components?

Edit: I found my answers to the first question.


Kalindlara wrote:
I was considering replacing the 4th level bonus save feat with the two slams, myself.

This could be a pretty neat solution, I think. In comparison to my suggestion of giving them for free, this would have the potential benefit of making the foci options not relying on slam a bit more interesting, as you wouldn't have to trade anything away.

I'd make it a "benefit today, pay tomorrow" kind of deal at 1st so the PC doesn't have to wait until 4th before being able to benefit from the typical phantom 1st level "slam ability", and/or risk having to invest in stuff just to get by until 4th when those investments might become redundant.

Kalindlara wrote:
However, in this case, it's nothing to worry about - none of the pride emotional focus abilities depend on slams at all.
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
When I first saw the pride emotional focus, I thought some of the benefits were really strong (double morale bonuses, holy cow!), but then I realized that you're really likely to wind up failing a passively-required check and lose the benefits (and take penalties), whether it's failing a Perception check against one out of eight monsters who rolled really high on Stealth (and thus acting on the surprise round but not knowing about the eighth guy), failing a Sense Motive against something's Bluff, etc, so I'd suggest caution with using it (it also prevents you from ever Taking 20 while the benefits are up, since there is always a consequence of failure). It could be quite effective on a phantom, where you could have it in your consciousness and not able to attempt any checks (and thus fail them), but it's trickier if it's on your main character (plus you can't avoid morale bonuses as a bloodrager).

This doesn't seem too difficult to tackle, though it would of course depend a lot on playstyle and the particulars of the penalties (especially their duration, I'm guessing).

Could someone please post the barebone mechanics of this/these obviously defining Pride ability/-ies? Your "teasers" succeeded in making me curious (even though I decided to not buy Occult Origins as it doesn't seem to offer anything likely to see much use at my table).

Kalindlara wrote:
(An issue is that, super-technically, pride isn't on the list of emotional focuses an id rager can take. I doubt anyone will enforce that, but it's there.)

Ugh... Crap, you're right.

RAW Effects and Game Design Rant:
So RAW, the id rager can choose one of the eight listed foci, but as she doesn't get slam or an actual separate phantom, seven of the eight listed options will only allow her to use two or three of the four granted abilities.

But she can instead use all four abilities granted by six of the eight focus options on the list if she takes two levels of alchemist, sacrificing one of her arms along with normal bloodrager progression and some early level combat efficiency. So dipping into an otherwise completely different and unrelated class which shares pretty much no fluff or crunch whatsoever with the id rager is a requirement for getting full access to a large majority of the id rager's 1st level options...

Wow! Now that is a truly brilliant piece game design! I'm particularly impressed by how perfectly aligned the id rager is with one of Paizo's more important PF design goal the devs enjoy reminding customers of: "providing substantial benefits to PC's that stay single-classed"... (sarcasm)

*facepalm*

If this was actually intentional, it makes me wonder why they even bothered with making a list full of traps instead of simply saying "An id rager gains the abilities of the hatred emotional focus" and be done with it.

Thankfully, it seems at least the OP has a reasonable DM and isn't restrained by PFS-style adherence to obvious flaws in the RAW.


Blake's Tiger wrote:
Did I read it correctly that the spell list isn't changed, only the components changed to be psychic components?

Yes, you read it correctly. The downside of this is that psychic casting adds +10 to the DC of concentration checks. But I think that simply means the archetype removes most of the few lingering illusions of having gish potential the vanilla bloodrager clings to, despite keeping useless "fake gish" features (such as blood sanctuary and a spell list bloated with offensive spells). So I find that mostly refreshing, in contrast to the gish-wannabe archetypes (like the blood conduit) which obviously refuses to see reason.

Hmpf... Someone should write "The Bloodrager Gish Delusion - The true effect of combining very few spells/day, silly low spell DC's and MADness"...


Powers of a pride phantom:


  • Asociated skills: Intimidate and perception.
  • Resolve: inmunity to fear effects. If you fail a roll (attack, skill check, ability check) yo loose the inmunity for an hour.(this is awesome for a psychic caster, as it negates the most common way to "shut them down")
  • Flagrant disregard: bonuses to attack for an AC penalty.
  • Vainglorious oration: lvl 7, swift action to shake all enemies within 30 ft. (apparently, this has no save at all? I missed that the first time I read it)
  • Overwhelming confidence:lvl 12, as long as resolve is up, double all morale bonuses. If resolve is shut down, morale bonuses turn into penalties (maybe this could be countered by finishing the bloodrage?)
  • Illusion of perfection: lvl17, CHA damage on damage rolls for HD minutes per day (will probably never be depleted, as you're more restricted by your bloodrage rounds)

Also, thanks Kalindrala for noticing. RAW, it's not allowed with the archetype, but my GM will probably allow it. And Rouge Eidolon, that is true, but it's minimized by the fact that you only gain the pahntom's powers when in bloodrage, wich, according to my reading, would mean you only loose the benefits when you miss a skill check during bloodrage or (more likely), an attack roll.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Partly, I'm pointing out the limitation on emotional foci in the hopes that people reading this thread who write archetypes (such as Mr. Seifter*) will stop doing that.

*<3

Designer

I don't have anything to do with either of the two product lines being combined here, unless the developers of those lines hire me as a freelancer, same as any other freelancer. Now, I'm an author for both books because I wrote the kineticist and medium content as a freelancer. Honestly, though, limiting foci for the id rager was potentially a smart move in case a later focus comes out that has a power that's truly bizarre for a non-phantom to have, like a hypothetical transcendent emotional focus gaining a power where you pass on all the way to the afterlife.


So much for forward compatibility though

Silver Crusade Contributor

Mark Seifter wrote:
I don't have anything to do with either of the two product lines being combined here, unless the developers of those lines hire me as a freelancer, same as any other freelancer. Now, I'm an author for both books because I wrote the kineticist and medium content as a freelancer. Honestly, though, limiting foci for the id rager was potentially a smart move in case a later focus comes out that has a power that's truly bizarre for a non-phantom to have, like a hypothetical transcendent emotional focus gaining a power where you pass on all the way to the afterlife.

Good point. Potential future interactions are something that should be considered.

At any rate, I'd rather it happened for that reason than because someone just didn't think about it (which was my - potentially unfair - assumption here).

As for your work on product lines, I only name-dropped you because you were in the thread already, and because I'm pretty sure you write archetypes for some books. ^_^

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