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So tonight my home group talked classes and started on the road to making our characters for the jade regent campaign. I have been denied playing unchanged monk because the other 3 people I play with say that the unchained monk is too overpowered compared to the other classes. They even went on to say that it looks more overpowered then a wizard!!! Now this group has never gotten to end game parts of a campaign and not really min-max players. However, I intend to show them what a "Overpowered" class looks like and need your help in doing so. I am fairly new to Pathfinders but I have played in society long enough to see crazy builds that would wipe my friends builds away. So heres the info.
As far as score/attributes go we roll for them. I am rocking with two 17s, two 15s, an 11, and a 10. (17,17,15,15,11,10) I really prefer melee or in your face playstyle.
Rules are we are not allowed occult or unchained classes. Races are not an issue but must be approved by GM. He is not ok with things normally considered "Evil" and it is probably best to stick with the common races. But if you feel something a little far out there is better then I can bring up the race to him.
We are starting at lv 3 and with 3000g.
Multiclassing is ok.
Last thing, it is going to be just a 3 man campaign for now until we find more people to join us in our area.
And thats it so come on guys lets do this and show these fools what a real "OP" build looks like.
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This is not a good idea.
I agree that your group does not seem to have min-max players. At first glance, it sounds like they're judging power in terms of damage in combat - and being the damage dealer can make you LOOK strong, sure, but that's not the only measure of value. If they honestly believe any form of Monk is better than a Wizard, especially at high levels, then they do not adequately understand either class.
Honestly, though, anything I advised you to play would probably just end up being disliked by your table. Instead of trying to "prove them wrong", you should try focusing on which character would be most fun for you and your group to have at the table. ^^ Also, maybe have an OOC talk with them - point them to some online tier lists and go from there.
Im not looking to upset them and I don't think doing this really would. I know them well enough that they would laugh and say I proved them wrong. I want to show them its not all about looking at the damage on the class page and that if you build it right, many of the "Weak" classes outpace the strong ones mid campaign.
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While talking things through with the other players, and finding a power level that everyone is comfortable with is probably the best answer, it not exactly what the OP was asking for. And I think most of us have played with at least a few people who have an incredibly poor sense of game balance, and likely poor rules knowledge, leading to exceptionally poor characters. I'm talking the dex based rogue who uses a katana, or the wizard who starts with an intelligence of 14 so he can hit something with a sword, but never multi classes out of wizard.
Personally, I've seen players like that come to a table, and see how effective a well built character can be, decide that maybe their idea of a balanced character is a little off. So, in the spirit of that, here are some builds that are pretty darned effective.
Starting with the melee character, the invulnerable rager barbarian with the superstitious, beast totem and come and get me rage powers. Add in dazing assault with the come and get me and you can literally have enemies walk up to you just to get hit.
Next would be a zen archer monk. It's an archer, but it has abilities to let it get stuck in the front and still perform admirably. And the plus side, it's an example of a monk that's going to be better than the unchained monk, showing that they're not better than other classes, or even it's unchained version.
After that are the full casters. Pretty much anything focused on summoning will outshine the monk. In fact pretty much any optimized 9 level caster will outshine it at levels 10+.
Now, whether playing any of these will change anything, or just create animosity between the other players is pretty questionable. But if you're dead set on playing a class more powerful than the UnMonk, that's where I'd start.
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Well, if you really want to... play a Synthesist Summoner ("You DID say we weren't allowed to use Unchained Versions", I suppose).
It's not so much that it's strong as it just has a really high optimization floor, so it's preeeeetty hard to get wrong if you know what you're doing. XD
So I played a regular summoner in our reigns of winter play but we only got to about lv 5 and started having issues with them dying because of poor character building. (another reason im doing this) I liked the summoner and the synthesis summoner looked appealing. With the info I provided how would I start to build one properly?
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While talking things through with the other players, and finding a power level that everyone is comfortable with is probably the best answer, it not exactly what the OP was asking for. And I think most of us have played with at least a few people who have an incredibly poor sense of game balance, and likely poor rules knowledge, leading to exceptionally poor characters. I'm talking the dex based rogue who uses a katana, or the wizard who starts with an intelligence of 14 so he can hit something with a sword, but never multi classes out of wizard.
Personally, I've seen players like that come to a table, and see how effective a well built character can be, decide that maybe their idea of a balanced character is a little off. So, in the spirit of that, here are some builds that are pretty darned effective.
Starting with the melee character, the invulnerable rager barbarian with the superstitious, beast totem and come and get me rage powers. Add in dazing assault with the come and get me and you can literally have enemies walk up to you just to get hit.
Next would be a zen archer monk. It's an archer, but it has abilities to let it get stuck in the front and still perform admirably. And the plus side, it's an example of a monk that's going to be better than the unchained monk, showing that they're not better than other classes, or even it's unchained version.
After that are the full casters. Pretty much anything focused on summoning will outshine the monk. In fact pretty much any optimized 9 level caster will outshine it at levels 10+.
Now, whether playing any of these will change anything, or just create animosity between the other players is pretty questionable. But if you're dead set on playing a class more powerful than the UnMonk, that's where I'd start.
Biggest issue we are going to have is that there is only going to be 3 of use going through the adventure. The other 2 are picking classes that are not going to go far with them because of poor building knowledge. One is picking a monk thinking that is will be the strongest melee class and the other is going ninja. Neither are concerned about healing or ranged. Im learning more towards a class that can use cure wands and mage armor to help out the monk. Summoner seemed like a good choice. How best should I build a summoner that can play support for those two?
Ramp up that Use Magic Device skill since your group completely lacks healing ability if you're playing a Summoner. At least they'll have good Stealth (well, they should given their classes). The ninja's going to be doing the 'ninja vanish' shtick, leaving your character and the monk in the high-and-dry for the monsters to pound on.
Starting at 3rd level in Jade Regent, your group is going to need all of the non-hp curatives they can get their grubby paws on. This can change dramatically if the NPCs are providing cures after the fights, but those NPCs won't always be available.
I hope that your group's GM is going to gloss over the caravan subsystem....
Re: summoner build, go with synthesist or master summoner. If you go the latter, make your eidolon a pseudo-pegasus. If the former, immunity to 4 energy types is cheap, especially if your summoner is a half-elf with the racial favored class bonus. Be sure to take the campaign trait that teaches you Tien and/or Minkaian for free. You'll need some ability to understand languages other than Common. Let us hope you're not also going to be the 'face' - if so, you'll at least want Diplomacy and Sense Motive at decent bonuses.
Asides from defensive spells, protection from evil and the "fix my eidolon" spells are a must. You're probably going to want far more spells than you can know, so some consideration must be made for taking Expanded Arcana at later levels.
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Ramp up that Use Magic Device skill since your group completely lacks healing ability if you're playing a Summoner. At least they'll have good Stealth (well, they should given their classes). The ninja's going to be doing the 'ninja vanish' shtick, leaving your character and the monk in the high-and-dry for the monsters to pound on.
Starting at 3rd level in Jade Regent, your group is going to need all of the non-hp curatives they can get their grubby paws on. This can change dramatically if the NPCs are providing cures after the fights, but those NPCs won't always be available.
I hope that your group's GM is going to gloss over the caravan subsystem....
Nope we are going at this full throttle. Caravan system and all.
I hope you're getting Background Skills from Unchained, as having significant ability to entertain the troops is very nearly a must. Perception as usual is a "must max out ranks". If possible, a trait to make it a class skill. If no traits, the Cosmopolitan feat will address several concerns out of the gate.
Your summoner might also consider the Endurance, Die Hard and Fast Healer feat chain. There is every possibility that you'll be the only one still standing...
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I hope you're getting Background Skills from Unchained, as having significant ability to entertain the troops is very nearly a must. Perception as usual is a "must max out ranks". If possible, a trait to make it a class skill. If no traits, the Cosmopolitan feat will address several concerns out of the gate.
Your summoner might also consider the Endurance, Die Hard and Fast Healer feat chain. There is every possibility that you'll be the only one still standing...
Anything dealing with unchained is not allowed per my GM
Oh boy. That's going to be some trouble down the road, as your skills are spread thin as it is. Do you know what skills you'll need to handle the caravan during that grueling trek over the north pole? Granted, some/many of the NPCs can handle that duty fairly well, but then you gotta keep them from being eaten.
Is the general thought that I should run a summoner? Is there any other class that is able to cast defensive, offensive, be tanky, and use cure wands easily?
Very much so. Cleric, Oracle, Bard are just three of them, and they can do the "fix the ability damage/blindness/curse" bit to varying degrees of effectiveness. Clerics can leave empty spell slots for later preparation and use during the day, and do so fairly swiftly if memory serves.
At 3rd level, the only class I'm aware of that can deliver lesser restoration is the Cleric.
Almost any class can use wands via the Use Magic Device skill - the tricky part is getting that bonus up as fast as possible to be able to reliably use wands and staves (DC 20). If your own ability scores are not up to snuff for the latter, the actual UMD bonus becomes important. Scrolls are quite difficult to use with UMD, typically taking significant feat investments to have a decent chance of success (Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus).
Now, having said all of that, a Fighter can afford to invest in UMD, even with a 10 Charisma. A circlet of persuasion goes a long way, after all. Depending on the archetype or traits, a Fighter can invest the previously mentioned pair of feats and still has his 2 freebies from the first two levels of Fighter to use. At 3rd, 10 Cha, no magic items, 3 ranks +2 Magical Aptitude +3 Skill Focus gives the fighter a +8 UMD. If able to take the Dangerously Curious trait, that bonus jumps to a +12 UMD, giving him an 8+ on the d20 to use wands/staves. If the character has a positive Charisma modifier, that +12 gets even higher.
Dangerously Curious is of course required to really make this shine. ;)
In Jade Regent, as in almost all APs, DR/evil is of limited use. I wouldn't worry about that overmuch. Your eidolon's immunities will make far more difference than DR/evil will. It will have its usefulness, so that's up to you to weight its importance.
Aasimar get all kinds of nifty abilities with racial variants depending on what the GM allows - some of them are VERY nice. If you are allowed, try out the Heavenly Radiance and Inner Light feats. Take them all if you like - note that taking Heavenly Radiance enough times gives you 6/day single sunbeams as spell-like abilities at 9th level, VERY nasty (DC 17 + your Charisma bonus), if you didn't cashier your daylight racial SLA out of the gate. Taking ability focus for that adds another 2 to the DC and gives your summoner a potent weapon that few will know is coming until you unleash it.
Some of this depends on your ability scores.
Feats 1st and 3rd are Heavenly Radiance (total of 2). Gives you 3/day (Sp) pool you can use interchangeably for your choice of daylight, flare burst or wake of light.
Re: gear, depends. Is there a per-item gp cap? How much does your character know about where they're going? How is your Use Magic Device bonus looking? First step: 2 or more spell component pouches. Sometimes bad guys target them for theft or destruction.
Are you a standard aasimar or one with variant racial abilities/traits? Assuming you're making a beeline to blast sunbeams at 9th level, your only options without knowing your GM's ruling is Halo (replacing darkvision, a toss-up) and Scion of Humanity (debatable value, mostly an RP decision). I don't recommend either one, especially if you plan to have a degree of Stealth.
Since you have resist acid/cold/electricity 5, cold weather concerns aren't all that much to worry about - you pretty much ignore the climate/environmental concerns save for snowstorms et al.
Skills: given racial bonuses, take Diplomacy and Perception at maximum ranks even if you can't snag a trait to make Perception a class skill. Caveat: if one of the other two is covering Diplomacy, let them. You'll need all the skill ranks you can get your grubby paws on.
Edit: ok, synthesist summoner it is.
Suggested known spells:
Cantrips (6) acid splash, daze {swap at 5th to read magic}, detect magic, guidance, light, mending
1st Level (4) mage armor (for yourself and the monk - take all of your eidolon's armor bonus as a natural armor bonus), rejuvenate eidolon - lesser, 2 of choice. There are many many options, so this depends in part on how you built your Iron Monster suit/eidolon.
Umpteenth Edit: in this case I recommend meticulously planning out your evolution points per-level through about 15th, along with your feats. You won't have feats to spare before 11th or 13th.
Feats at 5th, 7th and 9th are all Heavenly Radiance, adding +1/day to that (Sp) pool and adding searing light (really nice for the inevitable undead) at 5th, wandering star motes at 7th and the creme de la creme sunbeam at 9th. Having a 7th level (Sp) at 9th 6/day is NASTY. You're going to love it, the monsters will hate it and the other players may drool a bit.
At 11th onward is where you have lots of options, depending in large part on how many evolution points you want for your Iron Monster suit.
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Some of this depends on your ability scores.
Feats 1st and 3rd are Heavenly Radiance (total of 2). Gives you 3/day (Sp) pool you can use interchangeably for your choice of daylight, flare burst or wake of light.
Re: gear, depends. Is there a per-item gp cap? How much does your character know about where they're going? How is your Use Magic Device bonus looking? First step: 2 or more spell component pouches. Sometimes bad guys target them for theft or destruction.
Are you a standard aasimar or one with variant racial abilities/traits? Assuming you're making a beeline to blast sunbeams at 9th level, your only options without knowing your GM's ruling is Halo (replacing darkvision, a toss-up) and Scion of Humanity (debatable value, mostly an RP decision). I don't recommend either one, especially if you plan to have a degree of Stealth.
Since you have resist acid/cold/electricity 5, cold weather concerns aren't all that much to worry about - you pretty much ignore the climate/environmental concerns save for snowstorms et al.
Skills: given racial bonuses, take Diplomacy and Perception at maximum ranks even if you can't snag a trait to make Perception a class skill. Caveat: if one of the other two is covering Diplomacy, let them. You'll need all the skill ranks you can get your grubby paws on.
Edit: ok, synthesist summoner it is.
Suggested known spells:
Cantrips (6) acid splash, daze {swap at 5th to read magic}, detect magic, guidance, light, mending
1st Level (4) mage armor (for yourself and the monk - take all of your eidolon's armor bonus as a natural armor bonus), rejuvenate eidolon - lesser, 2 of choice. There are many many options, so this depends in part on how you built your Iron Monster suit/eidolon.Umpteenth Edit: in this case I recommend meticulously planning out your evolution points per-level through about 15th, along with your feats. You won't have feats to spare before 11th or
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So the GM is ok with allowing regular healing to work on eidolin. (wands,potions,cure spells) That should help me when it comes to healing it. No cap of items I just have 3000g to play with. If the item i want ends up being from an adventure or something with its own title i might have to run it by the gm.
*Also going regular aasimar
Hrm. Well, given you won't give a fig about the cold weather, I'd go with a ring of sustenance already attuned. If it isn't, stock up a week's worth of rations. Afterwards, you won't be more than a 3 hour rest plus the ten minutes to don your 'suit' from being ready to rock-n-roll for another day.
The other 500 gp in part depends on your Iron Monster's 5 evolution points. It has to be bipedal for you to wear it, but the upside is that it's your size.
Have you hashed out the Iron Monster yet?
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Hrm. Well, given you won't give a fig about the cold weather, I'd go with a ring of sustenance already attuned. If it isn't, stock up a week's worth of rations. Afterwards, you won't be more than a 3 hour rest plus the ten minutes to don your 'suit' from being ready to rock-n-roll for another day.
The other 500 gp in part depends on your Iron Monster's 5 evolution points. It has to be bipedal for you to wear it, but the upside is that it's your size.
Have you hashed out the Iron Monster yet?
I have not looked into the monster yet but my understanding is, you are allowed to have it be any type you want. (quid,bi,serp)
Bipedal keeps things simple - and it keeps all of your magic item slots in play. Except armor, but for a synthesist, armor is what you rest in for 190 minutes/day. ;)
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OK let me do the rundown again (this will be constant sorry)
Lv 3 Aasimar Synthesis summoner
Gear: ring of sustenace
Feats:Heavenly Radiance all the way to lv 9?
Spells: Cantrips: Acid splash, daze, detect magic, guidance, light, mending
Lv 1: Mage armor, 3 of choice due to being able to heal eidolin with normal means.
Skills: Max perception, Diplomacy
I am thinking of using a quad based eidolin with pounce, or Biped with slams not sure yet.
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Bipedal keeps things simple - and it keeps all of your magic item slots in play. Except armor, but for a synthesis, armor is what you rest in for 190 minutes/day. ;)
So if we are keeping with bipedal, should I be focusing on natural attacks or weapons? I feel like natural attacks would work better or am I wrong?
Bipedal keeps things simple - and it keeps all of your magic item slots in play. Except armor, but for a synthesis, armor is what you rest in for 190 minutes/day. ;)So if we are keeping with bipedal, should I be focusing on natural attacks or weapons? I feel like natural attacks would work better or am I wrong?
It depends. I rather like that the bipedal eidolon can mix things up with both natural and manufactured weapons. Also, it lends itself well to defensive and mobility evolutions. Also, cheap +8 skill bonuses. Stick with the slam attacks and use the nastiest 2-handed weapon you can get your grubby paws on, grab a sling and go to town.
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It depends. I rather like that the bipedal eidolon can mix things up with both natural and manufactured weapons. Also, it lends itself well to defensive and mobility evolutions. Also, cheap +8 skill bonuses. Stick with the slam attacks and use the nastiest 2-handed weapon you can get your grubby paws on, grab a sling and go to town.Bipedal keeps things simple - and it keeps all of your magic item slots in play. Except armor, but for a synthesis, armor is what you rest in for 190 minutes/day. ;)So if we are keeping with bipedal, should I be focusing on natural attacks or weapons? I feel like natural attacks would work better or am I wrong?
What would you say is a good two hand weapon? I know alot of people go with the axe that does d10
For a while you're out of luck on the spiffier weapons barring a choice magic item providing proficiency unless you're giving up swift access to sunbeams.
If you are, you might do better with a different race, such as a Half-Elf with the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait (replacing the normal Skill Focus feat) to snag a spiffy weapon proficiency (such as elven curve blade, no-dachi or tetsubo). Multiweapon Fighting is very Dex-expensive and requires a whole lot of extra limbs evolutions that can purchase fun things such as Climb, assorted fun senses and an energy immunity.
Right out of the gate you're able to pack a sling, javelins and a boar spear for skewering bad guys once they get close enough (past the monk and ninja). If you're disarmed, smash them into paste with slams.
At 4th your first 2nd level known spell is probably going to be haste, which makes the entire party loooooove you a whole lot.
You really can't spare the few feats you get to invest into TWF/MWF feats. Your Iron Monster Dex score will steadily increase over time, but it starts low ... unless you're going Dex-based, in which case I'd recommend archery-focused support rather than melee-based, which might warrant consideration for the serpentine base form instead of another for the much higher Dex and the innate climb evolution.
Depends on what you want to do. You've several directions to choose from.
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I think I would go for a lunar oracle. Half orc/half elf(only if you want ancient lorekeeper archtype). Not so worried about the hp damage and clw, more of the condition removal. At some point of time, someone had better be able to remove conditions. Half elf could work for ancestral arms, bow proficiency to become an archer. Ancient lorekeeper lets you add spells from other spell lists to your own. I.e mage armor.
Primal companion gets you an animal companion that you can send to help your ninja get flanks(flank trick).
Have you asked your party what they are going to do if something flying shoots them with a longbow from 100 ft away?
If you take synthesist get a wand of infernal healing. You can activate it without UMD check. Also consider dipping 2 levels in paladin for god like saves.
Gotta mention the good old fashioned conjuration wizard myself, of the Teleportation Subschool if possible. Evoker's are good too, especially at higher levels when you can start adding Dazing Spell to things.
Advice for low level(but higher than one) wizards of any sort, when spending your WBL, after you've got your gear as well as bought extra spells to add to your book, save some money to abuse the hell out of your scribe scroll feat. You can reduce the caster level going into them to minimum if you wish, but regardless it gets whatever spell DCs you have at the time of creation put into them, instead of the normal minimum required.
For Example, in one game I'm still in, I joined at level 3. I had an arsenal of scrolls carried in my backpack for whenever I needed something but either didn't have it or had already used it. I had several, at least four, of both Grease and Color Spray, and a fair number of utility spells to back me up if I needed them.
I still add a scroll or two a day in that game as long as I have the money to keep making them, especially Grease as our DM is the type to rule it as flammable, and our flame focused sorcerer loves me for the extra accelerant.
With a group that small, I'd suggest you look at either druid or master summoner. It will be really helpful to have a number of summoned creatures out there doing the actual fighting for you.
Druid has the advantage of being a capable front-liner and master summoner gets to cast his summons as standard actions and they stay around for a LONG time. If you go with master summoner, make sure to max out your Use Magic Device and take a wand of Cure Light Wounds to heal after combat.
I just looked and though about taking multiweapon fighting and exotic: Dwarven double axe for my first 2 feats. Later down the road I can also grab power and cleave. That would make it worth standing in a group of enemies and just swinging away at them.
If you want to be the big, bad front-liner, just go with a greatsword and take power attack. You're going to be doing ridiculous damage right from the beginning. If you really want to spend the exotic weapon proficiency, go with a falcata (that crit range and x3 crit multiplier is awesome).
For exotic weapon proficiency, you may want to consider spending a trait instead of a feat: Heirloom Weapon Trait
If you are interested in helping your team actually survive while still being personally powerful you may want to consider a shaman who uses a reach weapon.
Shaman is a very advanced class to play well but its versatility is virtually unmatched and has many of the hallmarks of an Oracle with the flexibility of a cleric.
A Syne Summoner can frontload damage by building a natural attack routine claw, claw, bite, add gore when you have 4 attacks, add acid to all attacks, take eldritch claws. at 5 attacks drop the gore and add a pair of arms and get 4 claws and improved damage claws . . . The list goes on and there are many thread on Syn Sum. The issue is if you do not have the right scroll in hand you will be SOL if you encounter something odd. Secondly the ninja should be just fine at using magic items anyway.
With that stat array you pretty much cannot go wrong. 17 str, 17 wis, 15 con, 15 int, 11 dex, 10 char for a purely battle build or 17 wis 17 char 15 str 15 int 11+2 con 10 dex for a lore build for arcane spells and grab the hair hex for a melee ability.
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Wow this blew up over a days span lol. Ok so I am on the Giantitp forums and a lot of people are recommending druid. Some good advice I got was to keep it simple but to optimize it so well that it looks like its over powering. That is something I think I am leaning towards doing instead of some crazy build that gives the dm and other players an excuse to say "Well you had to do some crazy build to be overpowered" Which will in turn not help my argument of the monk debate. So lets keep it simple. I am looking at human druid with a tiger or a synthesis summoner that is more melee built but can use a bow if needed. Also I have been advised by many that the campaign does not leave a lot for getting better gear so I have been told to get a proficiency with the naganata. So lets keep it simple and if I am going with the synthesis I am going to go aasimar for the resistances for the bad weather to come and also the are able to pick up spell resistance in their variant.
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My suggestion would be to just run a Saurian Shaman. You won't be able to have a Tiger, but an Allosaurus is comparable anyway so whatever. Pick up power attack and a bunch of summoning boosters, and play a dinosaur riding a dinosaur summoning dinosaurs.
You are a novice player asking for "powerful builds" so you can essentially cause trouble at your table of novice players. This will end badly for a variety of reasons including your lack of mechanical familiarity, lack of knowledge, and the approach you are attempting in the first place. This can only end badly, with either ooc frustration, an arms race with the gm, or similar problems. You are destroying a healthy dynamic over a petty disagreement regarding the unchained monk.
I strongly advise that you stop now. You will prove nothing. Further, if you cannot put together such a character on your own you likely lack the required knowledge to actually achieve the results that people here promise.
Summoner is a terrible choice for an unskilled player. Synthesist is far worse. Both are complex and heavily rules intensive. There are veteran players that cannot make the math work on them, and many of their rules are nuanced. Anything with a pet is also bad.
Even if you succeed in building and running powerful character, it will only create problems - optimisation is only problematic in terms of players disparity or player to Gmail disparity.
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Also I have been advised by many that the campaign does not leave a lot for getting better gear so I have been told to get a proficiency with the naganata.
Your going to be spending most the AP traveling to the Regent. Via Caravan. A good Piece of Advice is to take craft feats. I'd recommend everyone taking a craft feat if they can.
Since you are thinking Druid. Craft Wonder Item is amazing. Since Amulet of Mighty Fist is your main weapon. You can craft 85% of the gear you will use. All for 1/2 price and a 4 hour investment during the camping time of the day.
keep it simple but to optimize it so well that it looks like its over powering.
This is good advice. I play that way myself in every campaign. I take strong builds that people perceive as OP but it is just efficient and works. While other choose to struggle with sub-par picks to fit some "Theme" I'm just consistent and Roleplay my theme I am going for while playing a functional character.
It is why I suggested Slumber Witch. I had a DM who killed off my Magic Jar Necromancer Wizard I was loving out of spite. He even made sure my body was carried off unable to be raised. So I returned to favor of Spamming Split Slumber Hexes and laughed as most his Bosses needed to roll a 15+ to stay alive. Many times the Mooks had no chance except a Nat 20 to stay up. It did take the fun out of encounters but the effectiveness is there to beat anything not immune to sleep.
What ever you finally pick we can help you fine tune it to be effective as much as possible and showcase proper building and mechanics.