Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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It has occurred to me that I have never, not once, signed off on a Faction Journal card as a GM. Moreover, after playing the other night, I realized that I'm not even carrying one around as a player to get goals signed off on. And I played the perfect scenario for my Exchange PC (at least, I assume I did; Guaril Karela figured prominently in the story). I asked around that night if anyone else was seeing them, and many of the players and GMs didn't even know what I was asking about.
Meanwhile, I have run Serpents Rise several times in the last couple months, and have delighted in having my players jump through hoops trying to figure out how to accomplish their goals and really get into their characters based on those goals.
So, these bits of seemingly disassociated data have made me realize that I sorely miss Factions. At least, I miss what they used to be. I feel that Factions gave a PC an immediate identity, one that players could use to flesh out their characters' backgrounds and personality. And the five minutes of "personal time" they had in each adventure made them define those characters even more. People would describe their characters often by leading with what faction they were part of. It was a point of pride.
I really do feel the campaign has lost a lot of its flavor and identity just because of this change in how Factions are handled.
Am I alone in thinking that Factions should matter? Or am I just an old has-been who is yearning for days of yore?
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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You don't? I had no idea. Mostly because I hadn't downloaded one...
So, players get access to boons and goodies without any oversight? How are they handled? And how do they make Factions matter?
Edit: By the way, keep in mind I asked around about whether people were using them and got a lot of blank looks and nos. So, I stand by my, "Not really used," feeling from the initial post.
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We have folks using them here, and those who use them seem to like that they don't have to get a special task from their faction leader each game - they have their goals, and when they see that they can achieve them, they do. I like this method of having them: you can ignore them if you want, and if you like them you can use them without forcing everyone else to do it too.
Having said that - many people don't seem to use them. But, no one seems to miss them either - there is already a lot going on for players to figure out, and so doing so as a team seems to work well.
But then, I hated factions both in-game and out-of-game, so I'm probably not the most bias-free commentator...
(And no, GMs are not required to sign off on them, although in some places GMs do anyway, or note it on the Chronicle, just to ensure a lack of hassle.)
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They're popular in my area, for the most part. Personally I have one on almost every character.
No GM initials required. I write the Chronicle Sheet # in the box to track when I acquired that particular goal.
Between the Faction Journal Cards, Prestige Awards, and scenarios geared towards particular Factions, I feel belonging to a Faction now has more rewards (both mechanical and in RP) than at any time prior.
Drogon, your area's issue is likely because nobody knew about them. Once your GMs pick up on them and advertise them, you'll probably see their use more often.
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I really like the faction journal cards! I have one for every character, and have accomplished faction goals on about 2/3 to 3/4 of the scenarios I've played since they've come out.
The faction journal cards give flavor to the factions and their goals, in my opinion. The cards have been very useful in helping me determine which faction my characters would want to join too.
The funny thing is that I haven't actually used any of the boons on any of the cards yet, despite having opened up the first boon on several characters. I forget about them. But the goals are pretty fun. :)
My only wish is that the faction journal cards would carry more in-game consequences. We have these factions vying for power, but since the end of Season 3, there has been very little that we see of that power struggle. Back in Season 3 it really felt like what we were doing mattered on a global level.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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@ Lamplighter - I remember those discussions, and I remember you being pretty vocal about how detrimental they were. I was pretty neutral; I could see your side, but also thought they gave a ready tool to players to use to build their characters. Meaning: I liked them, but could see how they were poorly managed by some players and GMs. When the change was made I was, at first, pretty excited about it. That excitement went away. Then it got replaced by apathy. Then I forgot about it until the other night.
@ Nefreet - I can certainly agree with the idea that if prominent players are using them, others will follow suit. If, on the other hand, those same players are ignoring them, then no one using them is very likely. So, good point.
@ The Fox - Okay, I'm convinced. I'll download them and have a look. If it adds to a character's story and personality, I want it. But I do like a bit of politics in my game, and wish we had a bit of what you described for Season 3. Perhaps not that involved, though. The two scenarios where the Lantern Lodge and Shadow Lodge were written out may as well not exist, anymore; there's no way to play them that makes any sense. I hate to see things go to waste like that. I'd rather see a nicely executed organic story that makes people remember the NPCs involved. One that can be trotted out every now and then to get a new generation of players involved in the story.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I'm glad I asked. I now have some more reading to do.
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As a player in Drogons area/store I now use faction cards and I know a lot of players who do. Still, as a player who took a break and came back, My first few times, my first reaction was what are those and I suspect some less active players might have that reaction.
As for factions not mattering as much, I find I do miss Zarta saying she wants to examine my enchanted brain or getting beat up shouting "I do this for Taldor". I wish authors included more of this type in the mission that are still given out.
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@Drogon: I have to say that my experience with the early season faction missions and your experience are fairly much complete opposites.
My experience with them was that, usually, they were either so trivial they were ignored, they gave serious spoilers about the main mission, or they were fairly intricate, but pretty much isolated from everything else going on, and caused the attempts to find them to pretty much destroy any semblance of storyline that was supposed to be there.
I have several scenarios where my memories of the game were more involved with someone trying to do a faction mission than what the heck we were trying to do as Pathfinders. Broken teacups, searching every room for a banner, being told to kill the BBEG, etc.
I have had faction missions where all I had to do was play the scenario to succeed. I have seen others where you have to break the scenario to even find the mission.
Overall, as player and GM, the old-style faction missions just left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Sort of like trying to drive a car with a child in the back seat just old enough to know the words, "Are we there yet?" on a 4 hour drive.
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Locally, the cards are pretty common. It probably helped that there was an effort to hand them out when they were first released. I try to keep extras with my pregens and other GM stuff as well.
I think they're pretty flavorful, while still being written in such a way that almost every scenario has a good opportunity for several factions to accomplish something.
I started playing in Season 5, so I never used the old style missions when they mattered. The few times they've been broken out for no effect left me fairly underwhelmed. Most of the time it seems like a scavenger hunt that is at best tangentially related to the plot at hand.
I appreciate the faction-oriented scenarios that happen, and I think the cards are a good supplement, especially as they work with all seasons, while the old faction missions can be fairly inappropriate for their modern counterparts.
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I prefer the old faction missions. I almost never use the the faction cards; I feel that they're too sterile and that they rarely contribute to the internal monologue of my characters.
However, I was in the camp that really liked the faction missions prior to them being reworked, so I suspect having that sentiment really is a minority view point. That was abundantly clear back when the topic of faction missions was first being discussed.
I will say that the factions cards cause no stress no matter what camp you belonged to, so that's a positive development.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Regarding faction missions, I think it's important to:
1) Put faction relevance into the scenario blurb; this is occasionally left out. This way we avoid disappointments when people discover they really should have brought a different character.
2) Give clear instructions, for example in a letter, ideally using a handout for referencing during the game. What you don't want is that after the scenario the GM tells you "you were supposed to guess that you should go after X"; in some scenarios you don't actually get told IC that you have a mission, you basically have to guess (Cheliax: Wardstone Patrol for example). Fewer people get the faction mission than the mission briefing, and there's less opportunity for questions/knowledge checks; to having a good handout to refer to helps.
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I feel pretty blah about the new faction journal cards. I like the idea, but usually I forget to think about them and check stuff off (especially when GMing).
I have had one or two cool instances of somebody using that to motivate unusual behavior. In one scenario, after they'd defeated and captured the final enemy, one of the players made a good roll to convince that enemy to join the Dark Archive. I said that they brought her back to Absalom where she would enter further negotiations, and allowed him to check the box.
I really did strongly dislike the old faction missions, though. The fact that they were tied to Prestige meant that people often seemed more interested in completing those than they were in the main scenario... and very often the faction missions were just simple fetch quests, not very interesting story-wise. People seemed to assume that by playing through the senario and not dying, they'd get the primary mission prestige point-- and they were right, in practice. You have to tune your rewards to how you want people to behave, and if your rewards require people to overly focus on throwaway half-thought-out side missions rather than on the primary story of the mission, that's what people are going to do. I found them annoying and distracting as a player, and annoying and distracting as a GM. I can't say how happy I am that they are gone, and I really hope they don't come back in that form. The new faction cards are much more proportional; you get little bonuses for focusing on your faction. Prestige, however, is huge, one of the two primary rewards your characters get for their advancement, and can't be neglected.
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(As a perhaps related side note, I almost always prefer playing and GMing a table of 4 to a table of 6. A table of 6 is cumbersome. A table of 4 is better able to focus on the story of what's going on and stay involved. Also, unless you're missing something key tactically that makes combats last many rounds, tables of 4 tend to be more efficient and finish on time as well. Why this is related: faction missions distract from the main storyline of the scenario. But, maybe there isn't enough going on with just the main story to keep 6 people engaged at all times (unless it's a very busy combat sccenario).)
(Before PFS and Pathfinder, I considered a table of 3, or at most 4, to my ideal player count. Tactically, Pathfinder assumes 4, I realize. But in terms of just how the game runs, and what I enjoy as a player and a GM, 6 is often (not always, but often) just too much, whereas 3 seems to be the most fun to me.)
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I love my season 6 Dark Archives faction card and use it every scenario. I can buy a scroll at 20% off once per scenario. So yeah, I use it. I also get FREE magic items that I can use through the scenario. So yeah, I definitely use it.
With access to this kind of stuff I'm stunned I don't see them more.
I must also admit surprise that GM initials aren't necessary to validate rewards like this. Seems very open to abuse.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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in some scenarios you don't actually get told IC that you have a mission, you basically have to guess (Cheliax: Wardstone Patrol for example).
Wardstone patrol was special because they had just introduced faction letters, which were posted on the forums and supposed to give goals for the whole season. I'm pretty sure it is noted in the Wardstone Discussion thread to print those letters for your players so they know what the overall faction goal was at that time.
I like the cards because they offer a framework for faction-focused missions without needing to be told exactly what you need to do. You have your global goals in front of you and a reason to seek out and complete faction-related missions. I like looking for and finding those opportunities much better than being told about them beforehand.
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in some scenarios you don't actually get told IC that you have a mission, you basically have to guess (Cheliax: Wardstone Patrol for example).Wardstone patrol was special because they had just introduced faction letters, which were posted on the forums and supposed to give goals for the whole season. I'm pretty sure it is noted in the Wardstone Discussion thread to print those letters for your players so they know what the overall faction goal was at that time.
Even then the link between the goal and what you had to do was past wonky.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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I love my season 6 Dark Archives faction card and use it every scenario. I can buy a scroll at 20% off once per scenario. So yeah, I use it. I also get FREE magic items that I can use through the scenario. So yeah, I definitely use it.With access to this kind of stuff I'm stunned I don't see them more.
I must also admit surprise that GM initials aren't necessary to validate rewards like this. Seems very open to abuse.
We play games together. We can trust each other. An initial isn't proof one way or the other, it's just more work for the GM. If a GM is suspicious of cheating, they can always audit the card and ask which chronicles the character earned each on.
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We play games together. We can trust each other. An initial isn't proof one way or the other, it's just more work for the GM. If a GM is suspicious of cheating, they can always audit the card and ask which chronicles the character earned each on.I love my season 6 Dark Archives faction card and use it every scenario. I can buy a scroll at 20% off once per scenario. So yeah, I use it. I also get FREE magic items that I can use through the scenario. So yeah, I definitely use it.With access to this kind of stuff I'm stunned I don't see them more.
I must also admit surprise that GM initials aren't necessary to validate rewards like this. Seems very open to abuse.
The only one that's questionable would be the one where I convinced another PC to join my faction. Other than that, would you really question if I "made a check against an NPC" or "found an item that qualifies for your goal"?
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It's a little messy, but I tend to write what I did to check off a box (obviously some like "have X skill ranks" aren't as conducive to that). It ends up as a bit of a reminder of some of the character's accomplishments, and in the case of the Grand Lodge card, ends up sort of like collecting stamps in the character's passport.
When I prep to run a scenario, I tend to flip through the cards quickly, to see if there are obviously appropriate boxes for a given scenario, so I can be prepared for opportunities for characters to do their thing.
I think the earliest you could complete 7 goals for the maximum reward (like the DA one that's only available if you checked at least one box on the card before the new season) is over 10 scenarios, assuming every single one had an appropriate opportunity. Without very deliberate planning or impossibly good luck it's bound to take longer.
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It's a little messy, but I tend to write what I did to check off a box (obviously some like "have X skill ranks" aren't as conducive to that). It ends up as a bit of a reminder of some of the character's accomplishments, and in the case of the Grand Lodge card, ends up sort of like collecting stamps in the character's passport.
When I prep to run a scenario, I tend to flip through the cards quickly, to see if there are obviously appropriate boxes for a given scenario, so I can be prepared for opportunities for characters to do their thing.
I think the earliest you could complete 7 goals for the maximum reward (like the DA one that's only available if you checked at least one box on the card before the new season) is over 10 scenarios, assuming every single one had an appropriate opportunity. Without very deliberate planning or impossibly good luck it's bound to take longer.
I was level 7 before I checked off my 7th goal. This includes one or two modules, and some of the specials going towards that character (so using pregens and not being able to attempt to get any boxes filled in).
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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We play games together. We can trust each other. An initial isn't proof one way or the other, it's just more work for the GM. If a GM is suspicious of cheating, they can always audit the card and ask which chronicles the character earned each on.I love my season 6 Dark Archives faction card and use it every scenario. I can buy a scroll at 20% off once per scenario. So yeah, I use it. I also get FREE magic items that I can use through the scenario. So yeah, I definitely use it.With access to this kind of stuff I'm stunned I don't see them more.
I must also admit surprise that GM initials aren't necessary to validate rewards like this. Seems very open to abuse.
I don't believe it's a matter of trust. It's a matter of "game." That is what we are playing, as you so succinctly stated. How many times have we seen threads about players "ruining the game" because of the fact that they play to "win" not to role play? Things like this (un-policed discounts on magic items, free access to boons) allow players to "win the game" if that is what they want to do.
Even the boons we get for reading a Pathfinder Novel have to be signed off. Why have that restriction, but not this? And every purchase on an ITS still has to be signed off on if it's over 25gp, but this is treated as "Go ahead and let them do what they will?" Okay.
In short: I trust my players. I'm surprised by the lack of consistency in this set of obviously strong options, compared to how other things in the campaign are handled.
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I hear that, Drogon. I was skeptical too. I haven't seen any abuses in any of the games I've been involved in. Here, players generally ask the GM if they qualified for a checkbox off the card anyway.
There are many ways to cheat in this campaign if someone was so determined. But the vast majority of the players aren't going to do so. I feel we are better off engendering a culture of trust than distrust.
The novels chronicles are a good example of this. If a player brings me a novel and a chronicle for me to sign off, I have no way of knowing whether they read it or not. But I have enough things in my life to worry about—more important things. I'm happy to trust that they read the book; I don't need to quiz them.
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Venture-Captain, North Carolina—Asheville
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I have actually been using the Faction Journal cards for each of my PCs. Back when they were introduced I even used them to settle on which faction several of my PCs should join/switch too, and for 2 of my PCs I went looking for another PC that could sponsor them to change factions.
** spoiler omitted **
Now, when I am creating a new PC, I will pull out the Faction Journal cards and "fit" the PC to his faction (personality/background/skills). It really helps to have the PCs goals match up better with his faction goals.
It can also be entertaining if the character really doesn't fit with his faction. My bloodrager joined the Exchange because he was a caravan guard before joining the Society (his default pose is leaned against a wall with his arms folded, and he sounds generally bored with whatever is happening around him). The journal card had almost nothing he could accomplish on his own -- until I purchased a caravan vanity for him to play off his Intimidate skill. Yug is now on track as a very successful member of his faction.
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I think the earliest you could complete 7 goals for the maximum reward (like the DA one that's only available if you checked at least one box on the card before the new season) is over 10 scenarios, assuming every single one had an appropriate opportunity. Without very deliberate planning or impossibly good luck it's bound to take longer.
I think 10 scenarios is too early. A character with 10 scenarios would only have 10 experience points and thus only level 3.1. But 12 scenarios, sure.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I think the earliest you could complete 7 goals for the maximum reward (like the DA one that's only available if you checked at least one box on the card before the new season) is over 10 scenarios, assuming every single one had an appropriate opportunity. Without very deliberate planning or impossibly good luck it's bound to take longer.I think 10 scenarios is too early. A character with 10 scenarios would only have 10 experience points and thus only level 3.1. But 12 scenarios, sure.
Well it's more possible with slow advancement. I know I plan to use the new slow play rules when I GM for my PCs. Means you can meet five sessions GMing credit in one level, rather than two.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Any player that wants to cheat will be able to do so. Whether it is initialing faction goals they didn't accomplish or printing chronicles they didn't earn. Having a GM initial the card will not prevent that.
I understand this.
But there is also the simple psychology of *knowing* you are breaking a stated rule vs. having no rule to refer to.
For instance: The Season 6 Guide said, "If you forget your Chronicle sheets, you will be unable to play your character, though you may be able to play a pregenerated character or start another character within Society rules." Did you really hold people to this rule? I didn't. But I also didn't really have to worry about it because people largely obeyed this rule due to the fact that it was printed in the Guide. That simple statement deterred a lot of "cheating."
I used this example specifically because I see these things as in the same realm. Like I said, I trust my players. I don't ever really see them cheating. But simple statements and procedures deter people from making the "leap" to a cheat that, really, isn't a cheat by virtue of not being spelled out.
A cheater will cheat because that's what he does. But gamers game. That is what *they* do. And if there isn't anything telling them that they are cheating, well, then they're not. Does that make sense?
By the way: a stated rule isn't going to really affect my like or dislike of these cards. This is, really, a bit of a derail, and one I'm willing to drop. Just so you know.
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Haven't read the whole thread, but I just wanted to say that I agree with Drogon's original post. I keep forgetting about the faction cards, and rarely see them used. Some of the old faction missions were silly, but I miss that direct communication with the faction leaders.
Ideally, I'd love to see a return of faction missions, but only a couple of factions would have them in each scenario. Kinda like last season, but with actual written faction missions like in the early seasons. That way, every faction gets direct communication from their faction leader maybe 25-35% of scenarios, and we rule out the sillier faction missions caused by writers having to come up with one for every faction on every scenario.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well it's more possible with slow advancement. I know I plan to use the new slow play rules when I GM for my PCs. Means you can meet five sessions GMing credit in one level, rather than two.Have they changed or clarified the GM boxes for slow play?
They all say "GM for an adventure that grants at least one XP".
I wasn't aware of any confusion. A scenario grants one XP. You can choose to slow play to gain only half the reward. I have played a scenario that we got out with 0 XP, 0 gold and 0 PP, should the GM be unable to check that since the scenario granted 0 xp to the players?
If the Campaign management really intended to say "When you slow play the scenario no longer gains 1 XP" Then I'll run Silverhex. Each quest played by itself grants one XP. ;-)
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And every purchase on an ITS still has to be signed off on if it's over 25gp,What?
First I've heard of it.
On page 10 of Season 7 Guide:
An Inventory Tracking Sheet has been included at the end of this document and is to be used for tracking all purchases of 25 GPs or more, ... and any consumables used.
Same language was in season 6. I can't say about any earlier than that because I have only been playing since season 6.