Question in title. Im on my phone so i cant paste the text, but i'm of the opinion that it should work. What it comes down to is if spell combat counts as a full attack for more than just haste.
Okay, now I'm off work. Relevant text time!
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
Kinetic Blade
Element(s) universal; Type form infusion; Level 1; Burn 1
Associated Blasts any
Saving Throw none
You form a weapon using your kinetic abilities. You create a nonreach, light or one-handed weapon in your hand formed of pure energy or elemental matter. (If you're a telekineticist, you instead transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand.) The kinetic blade's shape is purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the damage dice, critical threat range, or critical multiplier of the kinetic blade, nor does it grant the kinetic blade any weapon special features. The object held by a telekineticist for this form infusion doesn't prevent her from using gather power.
You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade. Since it's part of another action (and isn't an action itself), using this wild talent doesn't provoke any additional attacks of opportunity. The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers to your kinetic blast's damage as normal, but not your Strength modifier). The blade disappears at the end of your turn. The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast deals, and it interacts with Armor Class and spell resistance as normal for a blast of its type. Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or another unusual object, the attack doesn't use any of the magic weapon's bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticist's blast damage. The kinetic blade doesn't add the damage bonus from elemental overflow.
Magus, Spell Combat: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
Yes.Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling did not allow the extra attack from haste when using spell combat.
Basically, i can see two issues, each of them debatable.
First, the fact that spell combat is a full-round action, but kinetic blade states that you can do it as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action. The debatable part is the relevant FAQ, which seems to suggest that any effect that can be done with full-attacks can be done with spell combat.
Second, the fact that it requires a light or one handed weapon to use. It can be argued that kinetic blade combined with spell combat is a self-fulfilling requirement, but it can also easily be argued that you don't have the weapon in your hand when you start using it, so you can't start using it.
These are the reasons I'm not sure. What do you guys think?
This may not be an actual answer to your question, but the kineticist//magus I made recently got around this by wearing a spiked gauntlet, which I 1) assume works, and 2) would look awesome since his kinetic blade would look just like his gauntlet when he used it, and his kinetic whip would be like his fist whipped out and slapped a punk.
Whether I can use the kinetic blade/whip with Spellstrike, however, I'm still not entirely certain.
Question in title. Im on my phone so i cant paste the text, but i'm of the opinion that it should work. What it comes down to is if spell combat counts as a full attack for more than just haste.It counts as a full attack in all circumstances. There is no way you can combine it with kinetic blasts, unless the latter can be reduced to a swift action.
Keep in mind that I'm talking specifically about kinetic blade, which is always piggy-backed on another action.
No, you don't have to take burn. If you have infusion specialization, you can negate the burn with that. Otherwise, you can use your move action to gather power and then use your standard action to manifest your kinetic blade and attack with it once.
Which means both your standard and move actions are taken... leaving no room for the full round action of spell combat.No, you don't have to take burn. If you have infusion specialization, you can negate the burn with that. Otherwise, you can use your move action to gather power and then use your standard action to manifest your kinetic blade and attack with it once.
The argument here is that if spell combat is always truly a full attack, than kinetic blade can be activated as part of it. "You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade."
If you want to engage in spell combat without accepting burn, then your options are as follows:
1) If you have infusion specialization, you can use that to negate the burn.
2) Spend the entire preceding round gathering power and then hope that you don't get hit between turns.
In any case, you are spreading yourself pretty thin trying to make that combination work.
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Magus: When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?
Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.
posted April 2013 | back to topMagus, Spell Combat: When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free?
You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.
Is your Kinetic Blade a light or one-handed melee weapon? From the rule you cite it isn't, so you can't use it in the main hand.
Your off hand "slot" is used by the spell, so you can't use it there, too.
I would say that there is no way to use spell combat and Kinetic Blade at the same time.
Magus: When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?
Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.
posted April 2013 | back to topMagus, Spell Combat: When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free?
You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.
Is your Kinetic Blade a light or one-handed melee weapon? From the rule you cite it isn't, so you can't use it in the main hand.
Your off hand "slot" is used by the spell, so you can't use it there, too.
I would say that there is no way to use spell combat and Kinetic Blade at the same time.
From kinetic blade:
You create a nonreach, light or one-handed weapon in your hand formed of pure energy or elemental matter.
...
The kinetic blade's shape is purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the damage dice, critical threat range, or critical multiplier of the kinetic blade, nor does it grant the kinetic blade any weapon special features.
The weapon you create is light or one-handed and none of the language suggests it doesn't count as such, since the status of being a "light or one-handed weapon" isn't included in any of damage dice, critical threat range, critical multiplier, or weapon special features.
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From kinetic blade:The weapon you create is light or one-handed and none of the language suggests it doesn't count as such, since the status of being a "light or one-handed weapon" isn't included in any of damage dice, critical threat range, critical multiplier, or weapon special features.You create a nonreach, light or one-handed weapon in your hand formed of pure energy or elemental matter.
...
The kinetic blade's shape is purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the damage dice, critical threat range, or critical multiplier of the kinetic blade, nor does it grant the kinetic blade any weapon special features.
Then it should work, as long as you manifest it before using spell combat.
To use spell combat you need to have your weapon already in hand.
You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade.
This seem to indicate that you can manifest the weapon only when you are using an "attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action". But spell combat require you to already have the weapon in hand.
It seem that you can't do it after all.
From kinetic blade:The weapon you create is light or one-handed and none of the language suggests it doesn't count as such, since the status of being a "light or one-handed weapon" isn't included in any of damage dice, critical threat range, critical multiplier, or weapon special features.You create a nonreach, light or one-handed weapon in your hand formed of pure energy or elemental matter.
...
The kinetic blade's shape is purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the damage dice, critical threat range, or critical multiplier of the kinetic blade, nor does it grant the kinetic blade any weapon special features.Then it should work, as long as you manifest it before using spell combat.
To use spell combat you need to have your weapon already in hand.
You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade.This seem to indicate that you can manifest the weapon only when you are using an "attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action". But spell combat require you to already have the weapon in hand.
It seem that you can't do it after all.
Hmm. What about for a telekineticist? "If you're a telekineticist, you instead transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand."
So you could hold, say, a shortsword, I would think it should work.
Declare Spell Combat. Since it counts as a full attack, as part of the declaration you summon a Kinetic Blade. You fulfill all requisite to proceed with your action. Sounds legal to me.
How such a character could be made to be viable I dunnow. Kinetic Blade can't benefit from Arcane Pool, and has the worst crit in the game witch is a fundamental part of the magus arsenal. Without lots of Kin levels the damage and accuracy is bad, and withouts lots of Magus levels you have no spell to make use of Spell Combat.
Given that Spell Combat counts as a full attack, you can certainly use Kinetic Blade, as Dekalinder outlines.
As for Spellstrike, you can use it as long as the blade exists. Kinetic Blade only piggybacks on certain action, but once you manifest it, it's a weapon you're wielding until it goes away at the end of your turn. It is not restricted to the action that manifested it.
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@ Dekalinder and Casual Viking
The problem you are casually disregarding is that spell combat require you to have the weapon in hand to declare it.
It don't allow you to declare spell combat and then generate the weapon.
That limit can (maybe) be bypassed declaring that you are using an unarmed attack (a light weapon) as you weapon in the main hand and then generating the blade when you make the attack.
But at that point you are playing really lose with the rules.
This probably will stop that maneuver:
Magus, Spell Combat: When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free?
You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.
Spelstrike allow you to change weapon, but that don't seem true for spell combat.
Spell Combat: "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand."
Spellstrike: "At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."
"The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion)"
Kinetic Blade is an infusion for the blast, meaning its never actually "wielded", which is, unfortunately, a requirement for the Magus abilities.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It's my understanding it works.
You should be able to use it during a Spell Combat as it is usable during Full-Attack Action.
Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
Yes.
It should qualify as a One Handed weapon.
You create a nonreach, light or one-handed weapon
I'm curious if you have an actual situation where this is being rejected, if so I guess table variance is an issue.
This only applies to Kinetic Blade, not Kinetic Blast.
You declare SpC with your KinBlade, and you are "drawing" it during the same action as declaring it. This kind of "simultaneous" action are ok. You can declare a full attack with a bow even if you don't have arrows in hands because drawing is part of the attack.
Again, I think that limitation might be gotten around by this:
(If you're a telekineticist, you instead transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand.)
So you declare spell combat with your shortsword, then consequently activate kinetic blade, thus transferring the power of your blast into the shortsword instead of wielding a new blade made by the ability.
How such a character could be made to be viable I dunnow. Kinetic Blade can't benefit from Arcane Pool, and has the worst crit in the game witch is a fundamental part of the magus arsenal. Without lots of Kin levels the damage and accuracy is bad, and withouts lots of Magus levels you have no spell to make use of Spell Combat.
I'm thinking either Gestalt shenanigans, or a high level kineticist dipping 2 or 3 levels into magus. 2 levels for just the extra attack each spell combat(arcane mark), or 3 levels combined with magical knack for a full power shocking grasp for each spell slot, as well as arcane accuracy.
Aside from a flavour issue what brought up the idea? Swinging spell strikes against touch AC?
Mainly the idea that magus's spell combat combined with arcane mark provides an unlimited method of getting an extra attack in that a kineticist normally doesn't have access to. Assuming it works.
You have to be wielding the weapon for spell combat/spellstrike, and you're never wielding a kinetic blade.
You have to be wielding the weapon for spell combat/spellstrike, and you're never wielding a kinetic blade.
Then you cannot attack with it, if you want to follow the rules. Or wait, you are saying I can attack with it even if I'm not wielding it?
BRB, making a three weapon fighter with falcata and shield and a kinetic blade that does not take a "wielded hand" of effort.Sorry but the only sane ruling for the game would be to ignore that throwaway line of pure idiocy.
But maybe I'm only a madman who thinks he's sane.
EDIT: f&%* the shield, get water and take a kukri instead
Its still an object held in your hand, you're just not wielding it for the purposes of things that require you to be wielding a weapon.
For an extra attack 2 level dip of brawler are way better.
"The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion)"
Kinetic Blade is a form infusion for Kinetic Blast.
I should add that I absolutely prefer ignoring all that junk and using it as a normal weapon, but RAW the Kineticist has a whole bunch of little things like that littered around its class features that make it really difficult to multiclass.
I'm gonna be playing a character gestalting Magus and Kineticist, using Broad Study to make the blasts work with spell combat/spellstrike, which definitely doesn't work by RAW, but its cool so we're ignoring it and doing it anyway.
I agree that the FAQ+rules for magus make it debatable as to whether you can use spell combat with other abilities that work on a full attack action that aren't haste-like abilities (such as speed and blessing of fervor).
You definitely can't use spell combat with kinetic blast though because you aren't considered to be wielding it, as cupcake indicates.
Wielding overall is a term that is thrown around in many different ways in the current ruleset, to the point where I've been convinced, in my research of the topic back when I thought a FAQ might work, that there are a large bunch of abilities that require wielding to be ruled to mean mutually exclusive things to each other in order for each one to work.
I'm always a fan of groups like cupcakes that look through their current group dynamic and come to a group consensus about what to use. That's the way to go, and it's my favorite way to do things! But I discovered that the way to default it, for certain, was to say that it didn't count as wielding, and then tweak and increase the power level of the class until it put out a solid output without using wielding things (rather than have the class weaker on baseline and dependent on rulings about wielding to function to spec, thus being less fun for groups that aren't as comfortable analyzing and discussing). But once you're going gestalt (and I say this having played gestalt back in 3.5 to the point that I created new classes to do what I'm about to say for every gestalt combination in the Player's Handbook), it's a sign of an insightful group that you are also making tweaks to each gestalt character, since not all gestalts are created equal.
You definitely can't use spell combat with kinetic blast though because you aren't considered to be wielding it, as cupcake indicates.
So no Spell Combat with Kinetic Blade/Whip, but what about Broad Study? Would that work?
You definitely can't use spell combat with kinetic blast though because you aren't considered to be wielding it, as cupcake indicates.So no Spell Combat with Kinetic Blade/Whip, but what about Broad Study? Would that work?
As Cupcake said, not without a houseruled version, as they aren't "spells from the spell list of that class".
You definitely can't use spell combat with kinetic blast though because you aren't considered to be wielding it, as cupcake indicates.So no Spell Combat with Kinetic Blade/Whip, but what about Broad Study? Would that work?
Definitely don't think that would work. Kinetecist is not a spellcasting class, and blasts are not actually spells.
However, I'm still questioning whether the thing is different with a telekineticist. Is a telekineticist ever considered to be wielding the weapon imbued with the blast, even if he isn't wielding the blast itself?
You definitely can't use spell combat with kinetic blast though because you aren't considered to be wielding it, as cupcake indicates.So no Spell Combat with Kinetic Blade/Whip, but what about Broad Study? Would that work?Definitely don't think that would work. Kinetecist is not a spellcasting class, and blasts are not actually spells.
However, I'm still questioning whether the thing is different with a telekineticist. Is a telekineticist ever considered to be wielding the weapon imbued with the blast, even if he isn't wielding the blast itself?
One might be able to make a reasonable claim involving using the underlying weapon (or some other weapon, like an unarmed strike) for spell combat, but then that wouldn't involve making attacks with the kinetic blade, so it probably doesn't provide much benefit.
You definitely can't use spell combat with kinetic blast though because you aren't considered to be wielding it, as cupcake indicates.So no Spell Combat with Kinetic Blade/Whip, but what about Broad Study? Would that work?Definitely don't think that would work. Kinetecist is not a spellcasting class, and blasts are not actually spells.
However, I'm still questioning whether the thing is different with a telekineticist. Is a telekineticist ever considered to be wielding the weapon imbued with the blast, even if he isn't wielding the blast itself?
My question here gave a sorta answer to that. My question was if you could get the benefit of defending if you have a defending longsword while using kinetic blast for a telekinetic, but, since you aren't considered wielding it, no.
Edit: Or what Mark said. Go with that :)
You definitely can't use spell combat with kinetic blast though because you aren't considered to be wielding it, as cupcake indicates.So no Spell Combat with Kinetic Blade/Whip, but what about Broad Study? Would that work?Definitely don't think that would work. Kinetecist is not a spellcasting class, and blasts are not actually spells.
However, I'm still questioning whether the thing is different with a telekineticist. Is a telekineticist ever considered to be wielding the weapon imbued with the blast, even if he isn't wielding the blast itself?
My question here gave a sorta answer to that. My question was if you could get the benefit of defending if you have a defending longsword while using kinetic blast for a telekinetic, but, since you aren't considered wielding it, no.
Edit: Or what Mark said. Go with that :)
You're right, due to defending being the flavor of "wielding" that requires attacking with it that round (for the other flavor of wielding that means "holding", without having to flip more than one page, check out UE dueling, which grants a bonus on initiative checks to the "wielder" and thus can't possibly mean that it only works when she is attacking).
One might be able to make a reasonable claim involving using the underlying weapon (or some other weapon, like an unarmed strike) for spell combat, but then that wouldn't involve making attacks with the kinetic blade, so it probably doesn't provide much benefit.You definitely can't use spell combat with kinetic blast though because you aren't considered to be wielding it, as cupcake indicates.So no Spell Combat with Kinetic Blade/Whip, but what about Broad Study? Would that work?Definitely don't think that would work. Kinetecist is not a spellcasting class, and blasts are not actually spells.
However, I'm still questioning whether the thing is different with a telekineticist. Is a telekineticist ever considered to be wielding the weapon imbued with the blast, even if he isn't wielding the blast itself?
Alright, thanks for the input. Guess I'll keep my magus characters and my kineticist characters separate, then!