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Hi folks! There's a cool new Fighter Archetype in in Heroes of the streets that seems to be intended as an Enabler for Bull Rush/Overrun builds. Particularly the two first level abilities which trade out the bonus feats seem super powerful.
Breaker Rush (Ex): At 1st level, a siegebreaker can
attempt bull rush or overrun combat maneuvers without
provoking attacks of opportunity. When he performs either
combat maneuver, he deals an amount of bludgeoning
damage equal to his Strength bonus (minimum 1). If
he has Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun, the
damage dealt by the appropriate maneuver increases by
2 and he adds any enhancement bonus from his armor or
shield (though such enhancement bonuses do not stack, if
both armor and shield are magic). This ability replaces the
feat gained at 1st level.
Breaker Momentum (Ex): At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker
successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun
combat maneuver check against that foe as a free
I was hoping to combine these abilities with some of the other good Bull Rush centered Feats most notably Shield Slam and Spiked Destroyer. I have a build hammered out till level 7 which seems pretty solid but after that I'm really not sure how to continue. Also I'm looking for ways to further improve my CMB so any input on that is very welcome.
The basic trick which works from level 5 onward is the following. Walk up to a dude and slam him with your spiked shield of bashing two handed -->Shield Slam triggers a free Bull Rush which uses your attack roll and deals STR+2+Armor Enhancemnt Bonus Damage--> Successful Bull Rush triggers Spiked Destroyer for a Swift action attack with armor Spikes as well as a free Overrun attempt which deals STR+2+Armor Enhamncement Damage and might end up knocking your foe prone if you beat his CMD by 5 or more, with Improved Overrun this will then trigger an AoO. The nice thing is all this works on a standard action attack so --> Pounce.
Bobo Bisonstep
Human (Shoanti)
Traits: Bred for War, Principled
STR 18 DEX 14 CON 12 WIS 14 INT 12 CHA 7
Bloodrager (Contact Specialist) 1 Imp Bullrush, Rage, Familiar, PA , Spiked Destroyer
Fighter (Siege Breaker) 1 Breaker Rush
Fighter (Siege Breaker) 2 Armed Vigor, Breaker Momentum, Improved Overrun
Slayer 1
Slayer 2 Shield Slam/Extra Rage
Slayer 3
Slayer 4 Greater Overrun/Combat Reflexes
Other interesting Feats
Imp Shield Bash (more AC), Merciless Rush (More Damage), Squash Flat (Seems a bit redundant), IUS, Vicipus Stomp (even more attacks), Shield Master (more to hit)
I already have a slayer build that was already invested into shield slamming, and when I heard about this archetype I flipped out. I'm not sure how you can push someone away while running by them where they have the option to let you by or fall prone, plus you too have the option to follow because of the bull rush. Very confusing stuff.
I suggest going to level 7 slayer, and getting at least two brawler levels for the brawlers flurry. You'll gain an extra attack, plus shield master will negate the penalty.
Also, if you're using the srd, make sure you're reading the correct version (updated) of merciless rush. They have the old still up too iirc.
I already have a slayer build that was already invested into shield slamming, and when I heard about this archetype I flipped out. I'm not sure how you can push someone away while running by them where they have the option to let you by or fall prone, plus you too have the option to follow because of the bull rush. Very confusing stuff.
Hmm I built a human fighter (for like the first time ever) and attract human fighters...
Yeah the whole thing about shield bashing and bull rushing while overrunning while attacking with your armor spikes is a bit hard to imagine and a bit of a mess rules wise. The thing about avoiding an overrun attempt is handled with improved overrun which states that opponents can not avoid you.
Isn't brawlers flurry limited to light armor? I think for this build I'm very interested in having medium or better armor for survivability sake.
Another thought that crossed my mind is that I could also make the real Thibbeldorf Pent as the Relentless alternate race trait grants +2 on Bull Rush and Overrun as well as some much needed protection from magic. However one less feat and no racial bonus to STR would hurt.
Another option might be to forgoe the whole overrun shabaz (thus only taking 1 level of fighter) and instead relying on merciless rush/Squash Flat. However improved overrun seems like a really strong feat.
The brawler flurry isn't dependant on armor, so you'd be good.
I'd imagine you'd go 7 slayer, then 2 siegebreaker.
I don't think improved overrun is worth it. Just bull rush people into walls. That's going to be weird when you overrun someone who is prone and has their back on the wall. Honestly you just want to bullrush because of the damage of succeeding.
Merciless change is written weird where you have 5 untyped damage, so I don't know when that's actually thrown into the mix. If you do your slam, damage, and bull rush all at once, then all the damage is one hit, but if it's separate, then a simple dr 5/magic doesn't care.
Enhance your shield as often as possible and get yourself a wayfinder and a dusty rose prism ioun stone.
The bred for war trait might not be worth it, but then again maybe to help the overrun succeed. I normally don't do reactionary, but I find it extremely helpful to get into the fight asap especially when you can shield slam someone into another target for multiple merciless rush benefits (flat footed cmd).
Don't forget to get a spiked large shield, and to two hand it as well. Straight armor enhancements especially since bashing no longer stacks with shield spikes.
You might consider dumping int to 7 too since slayer gets 6 points anyways. When you go fighter you'd get a minimum of 2 skill points.
I don't think it's worth any more than 2 levels of fighter, and 7 slayer (swift studied target).
Another gripe I have is not knowing when spiked destroyer goes off. I don't know if you do it before the target resolves their bull rush movement or after. It could be the difference between them suffering prone penalties on the ground or not.
Remember your slayer talents have access to rogue talents, so at level 4 you could take combat trick. I highly suggest you stay away from the weapon training trick. Also recognize you can do a human slayer favored class bonus for 1/6 slayer talent in case you wanted something, but that hp is valuable.
Keep in mind merciless rush and or.spiked destroyer requires an evil deity, so you'll need to be a neutral alignment. I suggest serving ravagug.
If your dex was 16 you could get the max benefits of mitral bp... Just saying.
Hopefully people give overrun advice because my pfs character wouldn't mind mixing it up with this archetype to.
And word of warning. Your turns will take awhile at the table, and players might not like it. Also, this can on a standard attack alone end a bbeg (I've done it multiple times without this archetype)
Last thing is remember you can only affect up to one size category larger than you. Personally I feel enlarge person is a waste, but if someone has it then oh.well.
@Human Fighter:
The Bloodrager dip does a lot of awesome things and one of them is to open up wands of Enlarge Person.
Improved Overrun does three things for the above build:
-Opponents can no longer choose to avoid your Overrun
-You get to deal an additional 2+Armor Enhamcement points of damage per overrun
-You qualify for greater Overrun which grants a free AoO after you knock someone prone.
I think you are underestimating the power of overrun in this build. By getting a free overrun after a bull rush and getting damage on top of each it has a lot going for it. However as stated above the best build might forgoe overrun completely and only dip one level into Siegebreaker. I'll have to fiddle with that.
I'm really not sold on brawler as I don't think this build want to flurry that bad. Main reason being it's gonna be moving around the battlefield a lot also it doesn't want a -2 to hit in there.
@Purple Dragon Knight: You might be right about this getting annoying at the table. Not sure if it really is OP however. Imo it prolly isn't because the situation where you are dealing crazy amounts of damage and tripping and whatnot should be fairly rare as each additional attack is contingent on the prior being successful. Also the build folds to damage resistance.
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This is pretty powerful and will be annoying at the table. I expect a nerf bat +2 attack on this archetype at some point.I sure hope not. Not overpowered in the slightest.
You might actually see people use bullrush or overrun, historically terrible combat manuvers for once
Agreed that it's finally nice to see some damage on bull rush and overrun; previous to that the only way I'm aware of was overrun damage via barbarian rage power... now at least the fighter is back in the game.
If you find a way to get pounce is there (as evidenced by this thread), then it kinda becomes a bit ridiculous, but I for one am glad that the game is opening up to other things than "do massive damage every round".
I still think it will be annoying at the table unless the player:
A) is 100% honest and trustworthy;
B) makes a lot of pre-rolls before his turn (highly dependent on A); and
C) has great system mastery.
I forgot that improved doesn't let you avoid.
The turns for my character get lengthy, but I have lunge to make sure I can keep my range up.
Either it's a barrage of full attacks that don't get to the last hit because the creature is dead, or it's the move and standard where the creature is almost dead usually (or dead) and they're pushed away enough that they're not risking doing a full attack on my turn.
I've alone on my surprise round before anyone else one hit a few bbegs, and that was without that fighter archetype.
Are those early level abilities the only good ones from the archetype?
Not necesarily, particularly as the archetype stacks with the Mutagen Archetype. It's just the other abilities don't really match up with the Bull Rush/Overrun theme and I dispise fighter, for it's lack of any type of out of combat utility.
@Human Fighter: What exactly does your Build look like? Slayer 7/Brawler 2?
I actually don't want to give away my build. Often at tables with new players to the area especially at conventions people get to be surprised with what I do, and it involves my dips beyond the two brawler.
I forgot to also suggest going all the way to 20 strength because that is your goto stat for everything.
The one level of this archetype is real nuts, and the second just makes it sweeter. The fact that it's really compatible with other archetype that don't touch weapon mastery or bravery is pretty awesome too. I still need to see what archetypes are allowed, but I was sad to see brawler archetype doesn't work because of weapon mastery.
Hmm just churned some numbers for a level 9 build as outlined above. So the basic routine if succesful will deal around 130 damage on a standard action if all attacks are succesful. That does seem somewhat OP. Check it out:
Damage at level 9 on standard action:
Shield Bash 7+2 Enahencement+ 12 STR+ 9PA= 30
Damage Bull Rush 13
Damgage Spiked Destroyer 2.5+1 Enhancement+8STR+6PA= 17.5
Damage Overrun 13
AoO from Greater Overrun 7+2 Enahencement+ 12 STR+ 9PA= 30
Triggers Bull Rush 13 Dameg--> Triggers Overrun 13 Damage
This can be further amplified if you add in Merciless Rush and the Overbearing Assault Rage power. I'm pretty sure Power attack damage isn't added to the damage from Bull Rush but if so this would be pretty broken.
I don't see Merciless Rush stacking with the lvl 1 siege breaker ability. You can't add your str bonus more than once.
Hmm that thought hadn't occured to me as I always saw the two as seperate abilities especially as they have seperate triggers.
The siege breaker ability triggers "when you perform a Bull Rush" and Maerciless Rush triggers "when you bull rush a creature and exceed the CMD by 5 or more".
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I don't see Merciless Rush stacking with the lvl 1 siege breaker ability. You can't add your str bonus more than once.Hmm that thought hadn't occured to me as I always saw the two as seperate abilities especially as they have seperate triggers.
The siege breaker ability triggers "when you perform a Bull Rush" and Maerciless Rush triggers "when you bull rush a creature and exceed the CMD by 5 or more".
Yeah, but the result is "when you successfully hit them with a bull rush you add your strength." You can't on top of that add your strength again just because "you even more successfully hit them". You're right that they do have different triggers, but the result is adding your strength mod to the same single attack. While previously I would've said they're fine since they're separate triggers, with the FAQ Paizo put out a few months ago about adding the same stat multiple times from different sources/for different reasons, you can't do it.
I will say that I've been trying to come up with a good concept for a combat maneuver build since Master of Maneuvers got errata'd before gencon. With the introduction of this new archetype, I'll definitely be using some variation of this myself. Have you considered what familiar you want yet?
I'll prolly end up taking an Hedgehag mascot and picking up Fate's Favored. The mascot grants me a +4 bonus to my first hit each round and +2 to subsequent while the hedgehog is not only thematic but pumps my Will Save by 2.
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Allright I had some time to think about the build for Bobo Bisonstep and came up with a progression fora PFS legal char that makes me happy. If you wanted to optimize the build for combat potential you could drop Int to 8 and WIS 12 and Pump STR to 20. The Achilles heel for this build is the WIL save, but it's not horrendous at level 11 your will Save will be +8 while raging with a +2 trait bonus against things that matter and not considering magic items. You could prolly shove that Swashbuckler level in a bit earlier and Lunge would be nice earlier as well.
Bobo Bisonstep
Human (Shoanti)
Human Slayer X/Bloodrager (Blood Conduit)/Fighter (Sigebreaker) 1
STR 18 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 7
Traits: Fate’s Favored, Principled
Slayer 1 Spiked Destroyer, Power Attack
Slayer 2 Shield Slam
Bloodrager 1 Improved Bull Rush, Extra Rage
Fighter 1 Breaker Rush
Fighter 2 Breaker Momentum, Improved Overrun
Slayer 3
Slayer 4 Greater Overrun/Combat Reflexes
Slayer 5
Slayer 6 Shield Mastery/Imp. Shield Bash
Slayer 7
Swashbuckler 1 Lunge
Familiar:
Hedgehog (+2 Wil) with the Mascot Archetype (Maskot can Aid another on attacks for an additional +1 luck bonus on all attacks that round)
Notable Equipment:
+X Spiked Breastplate (maximize the static modifier to deal more damage)
+X Spiked Shield of Bashing
Swordmaster’s Flair (to increase your reach with your shield and possibly provide bashing AoO)
Breakdown by level
This level marks your first major bump in power. You get Shiel Slam and together with Spiked Destroyer that means 2 attacks on a standard action. Plus Shield Slam offers some very handy battlefield control and can function as a strong debuff (trip) in tight places.
In comes the bloodrager Dip and it comes swining. You are now a melee Powerhouse matched in power by few Pathfinders of this level.
Not only does Bloodrager greatly amplify your offense through rage and the Mascot Familiarit it also improves your defenses by boosting your HP and bumping your WIL save up by +4. All this in combination leads me to believe dipping Bloodrager now is worth delaying Siegebreaker. Also do to your unbelievably high to hit you are almost guaranteed two damage rolls per round. Sadly you won't have the money for that +1 Shield of bashing yet but you can pick up awand of Shield and Enlarge Person for times when you can buff pre combat.
You now have both abilities from siegebreaker (along with the improved maneuver feats) and should be able to afford that Spiked Bashing shield. Your pounce attack does crazy damage while other folks don't even have their first iterative. Yeah life is good! On a negative note the two fighter levels really hit your skills. But you can still advance the most important ones and have a good spread out in other areas to be able to aid another in most situations. Your saves are still somewhat competitive but in need of cloaking. If you can spare the cash get the Swordmaster's Flair around here.
Level 7 gives you your next (and final) surge in power via Greater Overrun. Each sucesful Shield Slam will now equate to tripple digit damage and trip your foe. Oh and should foes not crumble after your first charge you now also get an iterative and control the battlefield with your bashing reach shield.
However there might be foes whose CMD you can not beat by 5 or more regularly at this level.
Shield Master and Imp. Shield Bash provide another nice bump to your offense and defense at level 9.
Lunge and Swordmaster's flair now gretly enhance your area of destruction.
Your Wil Saves is now a definte weakness.
Also those CMDs might be mighty high by now.
Your Skills are still very awesome and paired with your access to wands ensure that you are a very handy guy to have around even you are not caving in heads.
I think this is a really interesting build overall, particularly once it hits 7 and gets Greater Overrun to let you restart your pain train. That said, how do you realistically deal with enemies that have DR 5/- or higher CMDs vs bull rush? It seems like these are the obvious immediate weaknesses of the build. Additionally, do you build into Boots of Striding and Springing or something else for movement speed to ensure that you don't run out of movement during your bull rush and overrun shenanigans?
I think this is a really interesting build overall, particularly once it hits 7 and gets Greater Overrun to let you restart your pain train. That said, how do you realistically deal with enemies that have DR 5/- or higher CMDs vs bull rush? It seems like these are the obvious immediate weaknesses of the build. Additionally, do you build into Boots of Striding and Springing or something else for movement speed to ensure that you don't run out of movement during your bull rush and overrun shenanigans?
Yeah DR is a huge issue for the build not sure how to deal with it. However one thing that occurred to me recently is that Breaker Rush adds your Armor's Enhancement bonus to damage. Thus I was wondering if it might be able to overcome DR due to the enhancement of Shield or Armor? Also maybe wearing Admantine Armor could help as well? This might be something to address in rules questions.
High CMDs. I'm not sure how high they will get (I'm never going to be able to Bull Rush Gargantuan foes anyways and I think these are fairly rare in PFS) and a CR 7 Hill giant for example has a CMD of 24...piece of cake. The way Shield Slam works is you attack if you hit you take your attack roll add on any bonuses you might have on Bull Rush maneuvers (Feats, abilities and size I believe) to the roll and compare that to the CMD. However for foes whose CMD is say 5 or more points higher than their AC this might not always be enough. Also it gets much trickier for the overrun where you have to beat the CMD by 5 or more to trip. This isn't gonna be a given at any level of play (if it were it would be way too good.).
An issue I hadn't considered so much is that of movement. This is mainly because Shield Slam doesn't require you to move with the target of your Bull Rush. Furthermore you only have to Bull Rush a foe up to 5 feet away thus by extending your reach via one of 3 possible ways (Wand of Enlarge Person/Long Arm, Lunge or the Swordmasters Flair) you can initiate any other attacks/maneuvers. Also I'm not sure whether the movement from Bull Rush resolves before you take your free attack from Spiked Destroyer ("when you succeed at a Bull Rush maneuver") or Breaker momentunm ("when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe").
I really want to play this build in PFS but at the moment there's a few too many rules ambiguities for me to feel comfortable doing so.
Shameless bump for the US crowd...
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I dig this idea and I think the first two levels of that new fighter archetype sounds really interesting. I do have a few questions/comments/recommendations (just keep in mind that I don't play PFS and therefore know very little about the specific limitations):
STR 18 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 7
Since you don't get Toughness without having to pay a feat/bonus feat slot better used for other options, I'd recommend increasing Con to 14 and decreasing Int to 9. Even with the decent AC this build has, I believe the additional HP/level, Fort and rage round the +2 Con grants is worth more for a frontliner than two additional skill points/level and a few higher Int-based skill bonuses. The human skill bonus and having the majority of levels in slayer should grant enough skill points for out of combat usefulness even with a lower Int, especially as this build does not rely on maximizing any skills and the Cha-based ones aren't worth investing in anyways.
That said, I believe I've heard that the DM must run modules/adventures as written in PFS, and that a PC cannot be of a level below the recommended by Paizo. If this is true, I think it's highly unlikely a decently built and played PC will go down even if it's a Con 12 frontliner (unless perhaps if the other party members happen to be really bad at what they do), which in turn probably means the additional skill points are more valuable.
Slayer 7
Swashbuckler 1 Lunge
It appears to me that while the damage bonuses on successful combat maneuvers are nice, they'll soon become a pretty unreliable source of DPR and they don't grant this build any additional control/debuff power. Instead, the power of your "pounce" is primarily dependent on the size of the related CMB bonuses plus the number and strength of the AoOs you can reliably trigger by moving and making a standard attack shield bash. Therefore, I think you should at least consider changing the 10th and 11th level options (or 10th and 12th) as follows:
Slayer 7 MoMS Monk 1 IUS, Wolf Style
Swashbuckler 1 Lunge MoMS Monk 2 Wolf Trip/Vicious Stomp
Combine the above changes with replacing the "+X Spiked Shield of Bashing" with arguably one of the greater advantages of shield fighting, the dirt cheap Maelstrom Shield. This has an absolutely fantastic ability:
When used to make a shield bash attack, the shield's wielder can make a trip attack as a free action against the same target without provoking an attack of opportunity from the creature being tripped.
- 1 Move - Bobo moves up to enemy.
- 2 Standard - Bobo makes a shield bash attack roll.
- 3 Automatic - If Bobo's initial shield bash hits it deals damage as normal.
- 4 Free - If the shield bash hits, Bobo makes a bull rush CMB check (Shield Slam).
- 5 Automatic - If Bobo makes a bull rush CMB check, he deals Breaker Rush damage (regardless of whether the CMB check succeeds or not).
- 6 Free - Bobo makes a trip CMB check (Maelstrom Shield).
- 7 Automatic - If Bobo's bull rush CMB check succeeds, the enemy is moved as normal.
- 8 Free - If Bobo knocks the enemy prone, it falls prone in a free adjacent space of Bobo's choice (Wolf Trip).
- 9 AoO - If the enemy falls prone adjacent to Bobo, he makes an unarmed strike AoO (Vicious Stomp).
- 10 Automatic - If Bobo's AoO hits, it deals damage as normal. If the target takes at least 10 points of damage, it also reduces the target's movement speed with a number of feet equal to the points of damage dealt -5 for 1 round (Wolf Style).
- 11 Swift - If his bull rush CMB check succeeds, Bobo makes an AoO using his armor spikes (Spiked Destroyer).
- 12 Automatic - If Bobo's AoO hits, it deals damage as normal. If the target takes at least 10 points of damage, it also reduces the target's movement speed with a number of feet equal to the points of damage dealt -5 for 1 round (Wolf Style).
- 13 Free - If his bull rush CMB check succeeds, Bobo makes an overrun CMB check (Breaker Momentum).
- 14 Automatic - If Bobo makes an overrun CMB check, he deals Breaker Rush damage (regardless of whether the CMB check succeeds or not).
- 15 Automatic - If Bobo's overrun CMB check succeeds by +5 or more and the target isn't already prone, the target is knocked prone. The applicable events and actions starting with point #8 are repeated.
- 16 AoO - If Bobo's overrun CMB check succeeds by +5 or more, he makes a shield bash as an AoO (Greater Overrun).
- 17 Automatic - If Bobo's AoO hits, it deals damage as normal. If the target takes at least 10 points of damage, it also reduces the target's movement speed with a number of feet equal to the points of damage dealt -5 for 1 round (Wolf Style). The applicable events and actions starting with point #4 are repeated.
- 18 Free - If the target's movement speed is reduced to 0 or less and the target isn't already prone, Bobo makes a trip attempt. The applicable events and actions starting with point #8 are repeated.
Yeah, but the result is "when you successfully hit them with a bull rush you add your strength." You can't on top of that add your strength again just because "you even more successfully hit them". You're right that they do have different triggers, but the result is adding your strength mod to the same single attack.I don't see Merciless Rush stacking with the lvl 1 siege breaker ability. You can't add your str bonus more than once.Hmm that thought hadn't occured to me as I always saw the two as seperate abilities especially as they have seperate triggers.
The siege breaker ability triggers "when you perform a Bull Rush" and Maerciless Rush triggers "when you bull rush a creature and exceed the CMD by 5 or more".
The emphasized part above is incorrect. Breaker Rush damage is not triggered by a successful bull rush or overrun CMB check, but by a bull rush or overrun CMB check being made (see source or spoiler in OP). Breaker Rush damage is dealt in it's own damage instance, separate from any effects triggered by the CMB result, and it should therefore stack just fine with Merciless Rush and any other +Str damage bonuses triggered by a CMB check result.
(Sidenote: the "+X Spiked Shield of Bashing" isn't working. The bashing shield ability makes a shield spike completely redundant as the "virtual damage die size" increases don't stack.)
Thanks for your input upho. I can't answer your post in full detail for the moment (bed time) but here are some random thoughts.
Good point on INT versus CON. Skills are a pretty big deal in PFS and seeing that the build can take out most foes on a pounce my thinking was I could risk being a bit of a glass canon.
Maelstorm Shield: Wow awesome item. Thing is while it's pretty cheap for what it does it's almost out of range of the PFS campaign. I think the earlisest you'd be allowed to purchase it it would be around level 10 and the campaign ends at level 11 so building around would be iffy. You can get afree trip attempt after Bull Rush from Squash Flat so that's an alternative approach which can be paired with Vicious Stomp. However Vicious Stomp also has DR issues.
Your calculations on the routine forget one detail. You can't drop a prone foe prone so after step 8 your routine will not repeat.
Spiked Bashing Shields: There is considerable disagreement on whether both of these effects are virtual size increases and in fact there is a spiked shield listed as a weapon that deals 1d6.
I have found a way to build something similar while relying less on the static damage which gets trumped by DR. That build would utilize Greater Bull rush and the Holy Tactician Paladin Archetype to give the whole team paired opportunist thus granting you a free AoO on your Bull Rush. This would actually allow you to loop attacks equal to the number of AoO if I have thought it through correctly. Build is rather mad however as it needs STR, DEX, CHA and some CON.
Thanks for your input upho. I can't answer your post in full detail for the moment (bed time) but here are some random thoughts.
Good point on INT versus CON. Skills are a pretty big deal in PFS and seeing that the build can take out most foes on a pounce my thinking was I could risk being a bit of a glass canon.
Well, the more I'm thinking about how non-lethal level-appropriate (according to Paizo) modules tend to be, the more I'm guessing Bobo will do just fine with 12 Con. And like you say, very few enemies are likely to remain standing after he's given them a turn's worth of attention.
Speaking of, how high do you expect Bobo's total attack bonus and CMB values will get at 11th? I don't know whether PFS follows standard WBL or how much control you have over which magic items Bobo can put his hands on, so I can't really make an estimate of how many HPs his average "pounce" would remove from a standard CR 11 enemy.
Maelstorm Shield: Wow awesome item.
Yeah, it tends to make weapon-wielders cry with envy and enemies with fear, especially when combined with Shield Master and an increased enhancement bonus. But for some reason it seems this shield remains a relatively unknown and obscure item, despite the simply hilarious control power it can enable during mid levels. Just imagine a Shield Champion brawler 7+/MoMS monk 2 with Wolf Style and Wolf Trip that throws two of these, boosted with the distance magic weapon ability. With a blinkback belt and Quick Draw, he could shield bash and trip several enemies per turn up to 400 ft. away(!) and then free-action move them to fall prone adjacent, where they'll quickly lose their remaining HPs and movement speed in a barrage of AoOs from stuff like Greater Trip, Greater Bull Rush and Vicious Stomp. MADness and a ton of shield fighting, combat maneuver and ranged feats are required for this to really shine of course. But until trip-immune enemies have become too common, it has control power virtually matching that of a dedicated BFC wizard and can probably even take the job of party defender (unlike any other Paizo martial)!
Thing is while it's pretty cheap for what it does it's almost out of range of the PFS campaign. I think the earlisest you'd be allowed to purchase it it would be around level 10 and the campaign ends at level 11 so building around would be iffy.
Yeah, if you can't get the shield before the last two levels, I'm guessing it'll make a too significant hole in your budget to ever be worth it (even if you also wait with the synergizing monk levels and Wolf Style feats until then, as suggested in my previous post).
Hmm... In a home game played according to the WBL and item guidelines, a PC could easily have a Maelstrom Shield by 9th. Do you know the PFS rules regarding this?
You can get afree trip attempt after Bull Rush from Squash Flat so that's an alternative approach which can be paired with Vicious Stomp. However Vicious Stomp also has DR issues.
I considered Squash Flat, but it eats up a feat slot and requires you have an exceptionally high BR CMB in order to be reliable, on top of also needing a decent trip CMB. Besides, one of the reasons I suggested the Wolf Trip + Maelstrom combo is because of its ability to reduce the problem of shield slamming enemies out of reach. Whereas a Squash Flat + Vicious Stomp combo without Wolf Trip has very poor mechanical synergies, since Bobo will probably often "squash-trip" opponents that aren't adjacent, meaning the VS AoO won't trigger. And you're right about Vicious Stomp, at least without UAS class and/or item support. It'll probably have less DR issues than Breaker Rush, but still...
In short, I'd probably go for your reach-focused version.
Your calculations on the routine forget one detail. You can't drop a prone foe prone so after step 8 your routine will not repeat.
That's what the many "applicable events and actions" and "if... ...the target isn't already prone" are for. Just skip the parts triggered by the target falling prone if the thing that refers back to the earlier point was something other than the target falling prone for the first time. Some things do trigger again even if the target is already prone, for example another BR from a shield bash AoO, which in the triggers another overrun, which in turn may trigger yet another shield bash AoO, and so on. But I can see that it can be confusing, I was simply too lazy to spell out all the potential consequence chains separately rather than recycle the ones I'd already written...
Spiked Bashing Shields: There is considerable disagreement on whether both of these effects are virtual size increases and in fact there is a spiked shield listed as a weapon that deals 1d6.
Oh, I totally think they should stack, no question. But when I saw this brought up just after the FAQ, there wasn't even a discussion, everyone else agreeing the non-stacking to be RAW. Nice to see that there's hope in this case, at least.
I have found a way to build something similar while relying less on the static damage which gets trumped by DR. That build would utilize Greater Bull rush and the Holy Tactician Paladin Archetype to give the whole team paired opportunist thus granting you a free AoO on your Bull Rush. This would actually allow you to loop attacks equal to the number of AoO if I have thought it through correctly. Build is rather mad however as it needs STR, DEX, CHA and some CON.
Well, the pally is a good class in general, and Paired Opportunist can definitely be awesome with the right party. But you'd gain a LOT less skill points (required to dump Int, 2/level instead of 6), and your earlier build also has "max shield bash AoOs" potential (shield bash -> BR -> overrun -> shield bash AoO -> BR -> ASO). The static Breaker Rush damage is just a very nice bonus.
Hmmm... I guess the pally build would require fewer feats and probably wouldn't be quite as dependent on having excellent CMB values as the slayer/fighter, although being dependent on flanking can be really annoying (just ask the rogues!). If you really wanna go all in on DPR, how about something like HT pally 8+/SB fighter 2?
Most of what you're saying makes a lot of sense upho so I'll only respond to your first and last points.
As to the to hit modifiers for Bobo at level 11. This is for the first attack of the sequence. Later attacks with the shield subtract the Aid another bonus. Spike attacks subtract the enhancement bonus (they likely only have a +1 enhancement).
BAB +11 STR while Raging +9 (+4 Belt) +5 Enhancement +2 luck bonus from familiar +2 Aid another +1 ?Competence? from Ion Stone, possibly +2 from Studied Target = +30(32) -3 from PA= +27(29)
The +5 Enhancement bonus looks too high but with Shield Master you can stack the armor enhancement bonus from the Shield (+2 Bashing) with that of the weapon (+1 Furious= +3).
His CMB should be 3 points higher than that for Bull Rush and 5 points higher for Overrun (-the Shield Modifier).
Also I will be unleashing the Paladin based build (Chainslam Sue) on the World shortly and I'm under the impression that it's gonna be way better than Bobo. The trick with 'Paired Opportunist is that the Holy Tactician grants paired opportunist to all your allies 24/7. I'm working on a comprehensive write up (up to level 7).
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@upho, Wolf Style isn't legal for PFS unless you've got a skinwalker boon (which very few people have). I also disagree with your point that the siege breaker damage is done when someone "attempts" the maneuver. What you're saying is that the person gets to do damage regardless of whether they hit or not. My point is you're only performing the maneuver if you are successful. If you don't exceed your targets CMD, then you're not performing the maneuver, you're merely attempting it.
Also, Maelstrom Shield could be bought at 6th level at the earliest. It takes 31 fame which if you get all of your prestige is lvl 6. However, with PFS, it would be stuck at +1 and its enhancement bonus can't be increased because it's a named magic item (outside of temporary spells/buffs).
Ladies and gents I present to you:
Chainslam Sue
Female Human (Ulfen) Ranger 2/ (Holy Tactician) Paladin 3/Bloodrager (Blood Conduit) 1/ Swashbuckler 1
STR 18 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 14
Traits: Irrepressible, Fate's Favored
Feats and Class Abilities:
1 Ranger 1 Power Attack Spiked Destroyer -->Retrain at level 6 to Greater Bull Rush
2 Ranger 2 Shield Slam
3 Bloodrager 1 Imp Bull Rush, Bloodline Familiar Extra Rage
4 Paladin 1 Weals Champion, Lay on Hands
5 Paladin 2 Divine Grace Combat Reflexes
6 Paladin 3 Mercy (Fatigued-->Rage cycling) Paired Opportunist
7 Swashbuckler Panache/Parry and Riposte/ Lunge
So Chainslam Sue fixes some of the issue with Bobo (weakness to DR and high CMDs) while buffing defense and possibilities for battlefield control. However she also loses out on massive damage potential in the early levels and prolly can't spike damage as well as Bobo. However her routine is somewhat simplified (yet also more conditional). The build above is fully PFS legal (retraining reeks of cheese but is fully legal) but only outlines a progression up to level 7 as that’s when the combo is fully assembled.
The gist of the build relies on the combination of Shield Slam/Greater Bull Rush and Paired Opportunist in conjunction with mundane and magical enhancements to your reach. The idea being that when you Bull Rush your target you push it back by (only) 5 feet thus provoking an AoO from all allies that threaten it and granting yourself an AoO via Paired Opportunist. You use your Shield for the AoO and make a bash and then rinse and repeat that process until you run out of AoO, you have slammed the target out of your threatened area or into a wall or your allies no longer threaten it. In theory with a threatened area of 20 feet you could take 5 two handed attacks at your full BAB against a single target with a standard action, all the while providing your allies numerous AoO. In practice this will prolly rarely work fully but 2 or 3 attacks from you plus allies AoO should likely suffice.
It gets even more absurd if you consider that you can initiate this sequence on an AoO provoked by moving into your threated area (a 15 foot radius) or when you are attacked via Parry and Riposte.
0. Pre Combat: Cast Long Arm and/or Enlarge Person from Wands. However neither is necessary. Enlarge Person has the advantage of improving your damage and CMB plus allowing you to Slam larger foes, however it also comes with a DEX penalty and thus one less AoO.
1. Activate Rage as a free action, activate Swordmaster’s Flair as a swift action and Lunge as a free action.
2. Step up to your target via a move or charge. Ideally move after your allies and attack a foe that is threatened by an ally (important).
3. Attack two handed with Shield, let your Familiar aid another for +2 to the attack and a +2 luck bonus to all attacks this round.
4. If you hit with your shield you gain a free Bull Rush. It uses the result of your attack and adds in the bonuses from Improved and Greater Bull Rush (+4).
5. If your CMB check exceeds foes CMD move him back 5 feet (if you beat CMD by 5 or more do not choose to move further).
6. Due to Greater Bull Rush targets movement provokes AoO from your threatening ally.
7. Allies AoO triggers an AoO from you.
8. Attack two handed with Shield
9. If you hit with your shield you gain a free Bull Rush.
10. Repeat until you are out of AoO, Target moves out of your threatend area, is knocked against a wall, no ally threatens the target or the target drops dead.
STR 21 (25 While Raging) DEX 14 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 14
Offense:
+1 Spiked Shield +13 +2d6+8 (+15 2d6+11 while raging)
CMB: +12 (+14 while raging +18 to Bull Rush)
Weal’s Champion
Favored Enemy(Human) +2
Rage
Defense:
AC 22 HP 56 CMD: 22
Lay on Hands 2d6 (3xdaily)
Parry and Riposte (3 Panache)
FORT:+13 (+15 While Raging) REF: +12 WIL:+8 (+2 while raging +3 versus charm and compulsion)
Skills: 33 Ranks total and an awesome list of Class Skills
Equipment:
+1 Mithral Breastplate
+1 Ring of Protection
Plume of Panache
Swordmaster’s Flair
Cloak of Protection +2
Belt of Giant STR +2
+1 Spiked Bashing Shield
Wand of Enlarge Person
Wand of Longarm
Familiar: The familiar will definitely pick up the Mascot Archetype for big bonuses to hit. Hedgehog gives +2 to WIL. I also like Thrush or Raven for Casting Buffs from Wands. A small sized Valet Familiar would also help in triggering Paired Opportunist on a regular basis.
Holy Tactician’s Battlefield Presence: While it’s a standard action to grant allies a teamwork feat there is no duration on the ability thus you merely activate it once and it’s on 24/7. This is by far the best Tactician Ability out there. Alternatively you could pull this trick off with a Class that gains an Animal Companion (ideally one with Reach) or a Familiar (Mauler Familiar with a Fauchard ) and a way to grant them Paired Opportunist. I think that Inquisitor’s Solo tactics would also work with Paired Opportunist (and the sanctified Slayer actually grants access to Shield slam sans prerequisites at level 8) so that’s another path to explore maybe even for a single classed build.
The Bloodrager Dip is not required but offers sooo much (to hit and damage bonuses, access to wands, free improved Bull Rush and a familiar) that avoiding it would considerably gimp you.
The Swashbuckler Dip also isn’t necessary however the Panache Pool really buffs the Swordmaster’s Flair. Also Parry and Riposte is pretty awesome (and synergizes with Paired Opportunist) especially as the attack can trigger additional attacks and whack your foe out of melee reach on his own full attack.
The Fatigue Mercy gained at Paladin 3 allows you a limited form of Rage Cycling. Thus theoretically you could forgo Extra Rage for Improved Shield Bash and circumvent the lack of Rage rounds with the Community Minded Trait. Also the fact that you have a way to Rage Cycle makes Dipping into the Ulfen Guard very interesting.
Your Bashing Shield can be enhanced as a weapon and a shield, however as this build isn’t gonna pick up Shield Master until very late (if at all) it’s not as good here as it is in other Shield Builds.
The reason I retrained Spiked Destoyer at level 6 is that it eats my Swift Action and I want to use that for . However before I get the full AoO based pounce online it’s very handy to have as it grants me 2 attacks on a standard action from level 2 onwards.
You definitely want to pick up Improved Shield Bash asap. Ways to get more AoO would be pretty swell.
Continuing as Paladin: Good defenses, spells, more teamwork feats (Lookout is good but that would eat swift actions), poor skills.
Continuing as Slayer or Ranger: You don't get your second combat Style Feat for Shield Master until level 11. Otherwise some bonus feats and handy abilities or spells and lots of skills. Slayer gets a free feat at level 4 but studied target isn't gonna be good for the build as you will rarely have spare Swift or move actions.
Continuing as Blodrager: More Rage and a level 4 Bloodrager ability which comes online at level 10 but there are some goodies here, particularly those that increase your Reach.
Siegebreaker 1: Only the level 1 ability seems really strong for an added 10 or so damge per attack (which is subject to DR). I don't think this build really wants to branch out into overrun.
Brawler: Access to Style Feats, Flurry and Bonus feats. Could be decent however I'm not sure if the build will have many options to full attack.
MoM Styles or Unarmed Fighter: Single level dip for a style feat.
Ulfen Guard PrC: I quite like this Prestige Class. There are practically no prerequisites and it is Full BAB, has good WIL save progression, advances Rage grants 4 skill points per level and opens up Rage powers (options include: STR Surge/Clear Mind/Abyssal Blood/No Escape/Quick Reflexes). You can also Pick up a bonus Feat (including Fighter only feats) at level 3.
If you don't exceed your targets CMD, then you're not performing the maneuver, you're merely attempting it.
I tend to agree with you here...
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I see one flaw with your use of your familiar. Your hedgehog is diminuative, so it doesn't threaten except for the square it's in. Aid Another requires you to be able to make a melee attack against that opponent in order to aid your ally. So to make it work, your hedgehog will have to be moving about the battlefield on his own. And while he should have a lot of HP for a familiar, it still won't be a lot of HP.
Also, Shield Master overcomes a lot of the issues you were describing with your previous build about overcoming dr by adding its AC enhancement as weapon enhancment (high enough bonus overcomes DR).
Cold iron / silver +3
Adamantine* +4
Alignment-based +5
I see one flaw with your use of your familiar. Your hedgehog is diminuative, so it doesn't threaten except for the square it's in. Aid Another requires you to be able to make a melee attack against that opponent in order to aid your ally. So to make it work, your hedgehog will have to be moving about the battlefield on his own. And while he should have a lot of HP for a familiar, it still won't be a lot of HP.
Also, Shield Master overcomes a lot of the issues you were describing with your previous build about overcoming dr by adding its AC enhancement as weapon enhancment (high enough bonus overcomes DR).
Cold iron / silver +3
Adamantine* +4
Alignment-based +5
Hmm aid another doesn't say anything about threatening only that you have to be in a position to make an attack. But you're prolly right that does reduce the usefulness of the Hedgehog I might have to look into small familiars.
The issue with the DR in the Bobo build isn't resolved by Shieldmaster as the damage from armor spikes, and the Siegebreaker ability aren't caused by the shield and those are the abilities that suffer most from DR. Sue on the other hand would benefit from Shielmaster however in the currrent setup she wouldn't have access before level 11. However as she scores less but heavier individual hits (on aver age around 30 damge per hit) DR isn't gonna affect her DPR as much as was the case for Bobo who would lose around 30% of his DPR vs. DR 5 with no real way to overcome it.
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Hmm aid another doesn't say anything about threatening only that you have to be in a position to make an attack. But you're prolly right that does reduce the usefulness of the Hedgehog I might have to look into small familiars.
It's kind of implied.. If you threaten then "you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent". If you don't threaten then "you're not in position to make a melee attack on an opponent". I know just because A => B doesn't mean B => A, but they're kinda synonymous in this case so it's the same thing.
It's kind of implied.. If you threaten then "you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent". If you don't threaten then "you're not in position to make a melee attack on an opponent". I know just because A => B doesn't mean B => A, but they're kinda synonymous in this case so it's the same thing.
I feel like it can be interpreted either way as RAW is far from definite here. In fact the fact that aid another does not include the word threaten might have been intentional.
From a fluff perspective you could argue that the familiar is distracting the target or cheering on the PC (ye know like a mascot) to add the aid another bonus. Also doesn't Bodyguard create sort of a precedent for not having to threaten to aid another?
Also the mere fact that the Mascot received the ability to aid it's master in attack and 99% of familiars are diminuitive also kind of hints at the intent.
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I don't disagree with you, but this is for PFS so you should be prepared for the most restrictive interpretation. And while Bodyguard is intended to work as you describe, it doesn't actually have any rules altering text to make it work as described. Aid Another specifically requires "you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent". Whether or not you use the threaten, you still have to be "in position to make a melee attack on an opponent". (which happens to be the definition of threaten)
I don't disagree with you, but this is for PFS so you should be prepared for the most restrictive interpretation. And while Bodyguard is intended to work as you describe, it doesn't actually have any rules altering text to make it work as described. Aid Another specifically requires "you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent". Whether or not you use the threaten, you still have to be "in position to make a melee attack on an opponent". (which happens to be the definition of threaten)
Hmm makes sense...I fear once DMs realize that my Familiar is providing a +4 bonus to attack and I just made 3 attacks on a charge I might be confronted with some more restrictive rulings on the matter. So who's da best small familiar in the game? I recall once having built a Carnivalist Rogue with a Valet familiar rocking a goatee.
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If you can add in three levels of bloodrager to your build you can instead make your familiar a figment instead. This will let you give it the reach evolution. As its first level feat you can give it extra traits with Adopted -> Helpful (Halfling) (plus something else that'll be beneficial). This means it won't have weapon finesse, though, and will be hitting based off of its str. But that'll let it still ride around on you and threaten.
Alternatively you could take the Evolved Familiar feat and give it reach, but that requires 13 int and 13 charisma, but this option also doesn't help your build..
If you can add in three levels of bloodrager to your build you can instead make your familiar a figment instead. This will let you give it the reach evolution. As its first level feat you can give it extra traits with Adopted -> Helpful (Halfling) (plus something else that'll be beneficial). This means it won't have weapon finesse, though, and will be hitting based off of its str. But that'll let it still ride around on you and threaten.
Alternatively you could take the Evolved Familiar feat and give it reach, but that requires 13 int and 13 charisma, but this option also doesn't help your build..
I really think the simplest option is having a small familiar and still transporting it on my body. That way I'm also a bit less reliant on ally positioning as my small familiar will also receive AoO and thus give me at least one AoO after a sucessful bull rush.
There's actually an awful lot you can do with familiars to help you with your combo. An Eldritch guardian could pick up a familiar and grant it proficiency with a reach weapon and equip it with armor spikes to threaten 5 and 10 feet for example.
Edit: Here'sa list of Small familiars and the bonuses granted by them.
Peacock +3 to intimidate
Penguin +3 to Swim
Pig +3 to Diplomacy (WtF?)
Seal +3 to Swim
Wallaby +3 to Acrobatics
Donkey Rat +2 to Fort
Caiman +3 to Stealth
Goat +3 to Survival
Koala +3 to Climb
As none of those bonuses seem overly attractive I'd prolly have to take whichever animal has the highest DEX(=to hit) to aid another.
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If you can add in three levels of bloodrager to your build you can instead make your familiar a figment instead. This will let you give it the reach evolution. As its first level feat you can give it extra traits with Adopted -> Helpful (Halfling) (plus something else that'll be beneficial). This means it won't have weapon finesse, though, and will be hitting based off of its str. But that'll let it still ride around on you and threaten.
Alternatively you could take the Evolved Familiar feat and give it reach, but that requires 13 int and 13 charisma, but this option also doesn't help your build..
I really think the simplest option is having a small familiar and still transporting it on my body. That way I'm also a bit less reliant on ally positioning as my small familiar will also receive AoO and thus give me at least one AoO after a sucessful bull rush.
There's actually an awful lot you can do with familiars to help you with your combo. An Eldritch guardian could pick up a familiar and grant it proficiency with a reach weapon and equip it with armor spikes to threaten 5 and 10 feet for example.
Edit: Here'sa list of Small familiars and the bonuses granted by them.
Peacock +3 to intimidate
Penguin +3 to Swim
Pig +3 to Diplomacy (WtF?)
Seal +3 to Swim
Wallaby +3 to Acrobatics
Donkey Rat +2 to Fort
Caiman +3 to Stealth
Goat +3 to Survival
Koala +3 to ClimbAs none of those bonuses seem overly attractive I'd prolly have to take whichever animal has the highest DEX(=to hit) to aid another.
I'm not sure if you're talking generalities or not, so I'll just point out that Edlritch Guardian doesn't stack with this new fighter archetype.
At this point, if you're going to have a small familiar riding you, I'd be worried about GMs wanting your familiar to make ride checks.
Another thing to consider is that if one of those options has a relatively high str (it looks like the highest has a str mod of +1 vs the donkey rat's +3 dex mod), then you can swap out its weapon finesse lvl 1 feat for extra traits -> adopted -> helpful halfling (+1 more trait). With you having Fate's Favored, that'd give you a +6 to hit on your first attack, but as someone who has a character that is always flanking with their mount, and getting a +6 from that, I can tell you that it's usually overkill (especially since you're a full bab class and my character I'm mentioning is effectively a 3/4 bab class).
Another thing that I don't know if you've thought of is that aid another's bonus is only good on the first attack (the luck bonus persists for the round, though).
I made up an eldritch guardian once that used Gang Up and Outflank with their familiar so as long as at least one other ally was threatening the same thing they were considered to be flanking and had that +6 bonus as well. In the end I never ended up playing it because I felt it was too similar to the character I just mentioned above (which was based off of a previous character I had).
*+6 from flanking is via using Outflank plus a menacing weapon.
I'm not sure if you're talking generalities or not, so I'll just point out that Edlritch Guardian doesn't stack with this new fighter archetype.At this point, if you're going to have a small familiar riding you, I'd be worried about GMs wanting your familiar to make ride checks.
Another thing to consider is that if one of those options has a relatively high str (it looks like the highest has a str mod of +1 vs the donkey...
Regarding the Eldritch Guardian I was just talking generalities there.
Is the familiar riding me? Or can it just be sitting in a beltpouch or something? The PRD has the following to say on the issue of small familiars.
Small familiars threaten the areas around them like Small creatures, and can be used to flank enemies, though both familiars and their masters are often loath to use such tactics, as the result is often a dead familiar. Small familiars are also harder to keep on a master's person than Tiny or smaller familiars. Often they require some form of magic item, like a bag of holding, to remain truly out of sight.
Also looks to me like not all familiars actually get Weapon Finesse or is this a genral rule? I wouldn't be going for a pig adopted by halflings anyhow, that's too cheesy even for my sensibilities.
And yeah I was aware of the fact that Aid another only applies for the first attack. This was super important for Bobo but isn't sucha big deal for Sue.
Also the whole talk about small familiars made me realize that a small valet familiar is actually a super easy sollution to achieving Chainslam Sue's routine without picking up Paladin levels, and evolved familiar makes it even sweeter. This would allow you to stick mainly to Slayer and actually pick up Shield Master at a level where it still matters.
I just want to correct on that Shield Master does not let Weapon Enchantment and Armor Enchantments on a shield to stack. You only use the highest.
I just want to correct on that Shield Master does not let Weapon Enchantment and Armor Enchantments on a shield to stack. You only use the highest.
True... what about Furious shield spikes though?
Hmm okay that does make Shieldmaster less desirable for this build becasue +1 Furious Shield Spikes are by far the cheapest way to get to a +3 weapon for this build in the PFS level range.
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Also looks to me like not all familiars actually get Weapon Finesse or is this a genral rule?
As written, familiars don't need weapon finesse because it's a familiar rule that they use whichever of their str/dex that is higher. However, PFS has a custom house rule that says if they swap weapon finesse out for a different feat then they must use their strength. So you're right, not all familiars have weapon finesse, but you can give them whatever feat you want in place of their first level feat.
Also looks to me like not all familiars actually get Weapon Finesse or is this a genral rule?As written, familiars don't need weapon finesse because it's a familiar rule that they use whichever of their str/dex that is higher. However, PFS has a custom house rule that says if they swap weapon finesse out for a different feat then they must use their strength. So you're right, not all familiars have weapon finesse, but you can give them whatever feat you want in place of their first level feat.
So if at level 1 a Familair can give up a feat for any feat they qualify for (not sure where I can find that rule) then you could actually have any familair could pick up Paired Opportunist as their first level feat right?
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So if at level 1 a Familair can give up a feat for any feat they qualify for (not sure where I can find that rule) then you could actually have any familair could pick up Paired Opportunist as their first level feat right?Also looks to me like not all familiars actually get Weapon Finesse or is this a genral rule?As written, familiars don't need weapon finesse because it's a familiar rule that they use whichever of their str/dex that is higher. However, PFS has a custom house rule that says if they swap weapon finesse out for a different feat then they must use their strength. So you're right, not all familiars have weapon finesse, but you can give them whatever feat you want in place of their first level feat.
Yes, but unless you have a small familiar, it wouldn't do them any good as they would threaten nothing. Also, depending on familiar, losing Weapon finesse would give a greater than -4 penalty to hit.
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It's not a "familiar rule" it's just a byproduct of them being a player controlled creature. If you follow the link I posted above, you can see that Mike Brock clearly implies that it's legal by saying "if they give it up then..." which means they can give it up. While I don't know where the verbage is that allows it, for PFS that's verbage enough.
@imbicatus that's addressed about 6 or so posts up.