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I'm not sure why taco was asked for, neither his ac nor his damage are as high as the ranges specified, and his level is 13, not 11.Where's Taco when you need him to explain a thing or two?OK, now that your spoiler text shows the 35 touch AC is possible and legit in PFS, make that same build also do 50 HP damage per hit. Remember, you've just spent all your wealth to get the touch AC up. How do you get to a consistent 50 HP damage with very little cash left for gear to do it?
Meditating on all of the violence Taco has caused to increase Taco's chance of joining Korada in the afterlife.
** spoiler omitted **
I am happy to email anyone Taco's Hero Lab sheets if you want to look at them. Send me a PM with whatever address you want them sent to.
This PC was one that got the other thread going. A poster specifically called me out and told me I would not be welcome at his table with this PC. His normal AC is 39 but can get as high as 50, I choose not to. He was not all that different from level 11 to 13 as well.
The real statement of problem here as I see it is "a horribly built character only reduces the fun for himself (when he dies to the first fireball).
A horribly built character can ruin it for everyone. A table full of newbies recently came to the game woefully unprepared (some had zero melee weapons, and this was discovered while in the first battle), and it caused the table to break into infighting and for some more experienced players to pull back and say, "No. If you come to the table with a character so bad that it will endanger everyone else, then there is a problem." Losing prestige or completely failing the mission is going to cause lots of players to get up in arms, especially if it could have been prevented.
All of this is a side-note, though. It doesn't detract from your point that "a heavily optimized character can reduce the fun of everyone at the table."
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I'm not sure why taco was asked for, neither his ac nor his damage are as high as the ranges specified, and his level is 13, not 11.
I agree! Taco is hardly an adventurer of note. I was doing well over that damage, happily trivializing encounters, and not worrying about getting hit well before that point.
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"a horribly built character only reduces the fun for himself (when he dies to the first fireball). But a heavily optimized character can reduce the fun of everyone at the table (including the GM) except for herself."
Definitions of horribly built and heavily optimized not valid at all tables. Limited time offer. No purchase of materials outside of the core rule book necessary. If symptoms persist for more than 4 game sessions please see the optimization boards.
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This PC was one that got the other thread going. A poster specifically called me out and told me I would not be welcome at his table with this PC. His normal AC is 39 but can get as high as 50, I choose not to. He was not all that different from level 11 to 13 as well.I'm not sure why taco was asked for, neither his ac nor his damage are as high as the ranges specified, and his level is 13, not 11.Where's Taco when you need him to explain a thing or two?OK, now that your spoiler text shows the 35 touch AC is possible and legit in PFS, make that same build also do 50 HP damage per hit. Remember, you've just spent all your wealth to get the touch AC up. How do you get to a consistent 50 HP damage with very little cash left for gear to do it?
Meditating on all of the violence Taco has caused to increase Taco's chance of joining Korada in the afterlife.
** spoiler omitted **
I am happy to email anyone Taco's Hero Lab sheets if you want to look at them. Send me a PM with whatever address you want them sent to.
But it was requested specifically in response to a question if you could get 50 average Damage per hit with a touch AC of 35 at level 11, and as posted taco doesn't achieve that.
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In other words, in D&D 3.5, that group of adventurers would be going up against a tough CR 5 or 6 monster, but in PFS it's "fair" and "by the rules" for that same group to go up against a CR 3 monster. No wonder players find it easy. And no wonder that Pathfinder Society is having problems with overpowered characters.
Not only does our current system underestimate our own CR, but given the CR of the enemies PFS games often don't provide enough experience points to actually get you 1/3rd a level in a game. Even for something such as Refuge of Time (an example I use for this) you can be getting as low as 1/9th of a level's exp needed depending on tier.
Party CR is being calculated incorrectly. 4 Level 5 characters do not have the same CR as 6 Level 5 characters.
Enemy CR is being softballed too hard. Even something as simple as adding the advanced template to each enemy would have solved a lot of these exp issues.
When can a GM make a "command decision"?
Whenever they damn well please.
They just needs to be prepared for the fallout if their ruling seems too unfair to players.
Edit: Just noticed this was for PFS. Nevermind. That -ish is annoyingly difficult to deal.
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But it was requested specifically in response to a question if you could get 50 average Damage per hit with a touch AC of 35 at level 11, and as posted taco doesn't achieve that.This PC was one that got the other thread going. A poster specifically called me out and told me I would not be welcome at his table with this PC. His normal AC is 39 but can get as high as 50, I choose not to. He was not all that different from level 11 to 13 as well.I'm not sure why taco was asked for, neither his ac nor his damage are as high as the ranges specified, and his level is 13, not 11.Where's Taco when you need him to explain a thing or two?OK, now that your spoiler text shows the 35 touch AC is possible and legit in PFS, make that same build also do 50 HP damage per hit. Remember, you've just spent all your wealth to get the touch AC up. How do you get to a consistent 50 HP damage with very little cash left for gear to do it?
Meditating on all of the violence Taco has caused to increase Taco's chance of joining Korada in the afterlife.
** spoiler omitted **
I am happy to email anyone Taco's Hero Lab sheets if you want to look at them. Send me a PM with whatever address you want them sent to.
Sorry he doesn't meet your requirements for being asked to leave a table.
I think burkoJames was just trying to get back on track deciding if an AC 40, 50-HP-damage-dealing PC was possible/legit, and since Taco's post doesn't help with that, we need more. However, I think it's reasonable to suggest that if Taco isn't doing it at level 13, then it's useful to maybe consider that this random player isn't legitimately doing it at level 11.
So it all comes back to this: do a character audit. If it's 100% legit, well, sucks to OP I guess. If it's not legit, well that helps to explain things, and helps OP to get his game back on track.
But based upon the other conversation that is going on in this thread, even if OP does find problems in a character audit, the game will never truly get "back on track" in the sense that the CR system is broken (and not the CR system in general, though it is flawed -- it's the Pathfinder Society CR system, which veers wildly away from its origins, that is at fault).
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I think burkoJames was just trying to get back on track deciding if an AC 40, 50-HP-damage-dealing PC was possible/legit, and since Taco's post doesn't help with that, we need more. However, I think it's reasonable to suggest that if Taco isn't doing it at level 13, then it's useful to maybe consider that this random player isn't legitimately doing it at level 11.
Nah, Taco just sucks, like I said before, and I've met his master, he's pretty horrible at optimization.
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Sorry he doesn't meet your requirements for being asked to leave a table.But it was requested specifically in response to a question if you could get 50 average Damage per hit with a touch AC of 35 at level 11, and as posted taco doesn't achieve that.This PC was one that got the other thread going. A poster specifically called me out and told me I would not be welcome at his table with this PC. His normal AC is 39 but can get as high as 50, I choose not to. He was not all that different from level 11 to 13 as well.I'm not sure why taco was asked for, neither his ac nor his damage are as high as the ranges specified, and his level is 13, not 11.Where's Taco when you need him to explain a thing or two?OK, now that your spoiler text shows the 35 touch AC is possible and legit in PFS, make that same build also do 50 HP damage per hit. Remember, you've just spent all your wealth to get the touch AC up. How do you get to a consistent 50 HP damage with very little cash left for gear to do it?
Meditating on all of the violence Taco has caused to increase Taco's chance of joining Korada in the afterlife.
** spoiler omitted **
I am happy to email anyone Taco's Hero Lab sheets if you want to look at them. Send me a PM with whatever address you want them sent to.
Again, thats not what the QUESTION taco was asked to solve was. Outshyn asked how a 35 Touch AC Build could do 50 DPH after spending all his money and resources boosting touch AC, and Alhara said "look at taco". I was not questioning whether taco was a optimized build other GMs might have a problem with. I was questioning why Alhara thought Taco could answer the question Outshyn asked.
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Fighting defensively gets me to a 33 touch AC. Shoo, I could get some wizard to cast Mage Armor on me and then my touch AC is 30 before fighting defensively.
My damage output is lower than the aforementioned target due to being used with one hand, dex not str based, and selecting feats that made me a better all around combatant.
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Fighting defensively gets me to a 33 touch AC. Shoo, I could get some wizard to cast Mage Armor on me and then my touch AC is 30 before fighting defensively.
My damage output is lower than the aforementioned target due to being used with one hand, dex not str based, and selecting feats that made me a better all around combatant.
silly point...sorry to nit-pick,
mage armor doesn't count for touch AC. (it does count for Incorporeal attacks like from a ghost, but not for touch AC from Ray attacks for example).Thank you, and sorry for the interruption...
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The problem here is the player and not the PC that they play. A problem player can make any table they are at worse. A good player can play any PC (regardless of its ‘broken’ state) and make the table better for everyone.
In my opinion it is folly to think that adjusting marks on a page will do anything to influence the behavior of the person running that PC.
There was already too much intellectual superiority to contain even within the walls of a Pathfinder Lodge by me being here, but I will tip my hat to a good point when it's made.
As rarely as that is.
Hmmm, perhaps among all of you worthless plebeians there is actually one worthy of my little and precious time. I already dedicate too much to those clearly beneath my station though so perhaps not...
I'm going to chalk this one up as a fluke chance. As they say, an infinite number of Mwangi apes given a quill and ink will eventually pen a Pathfinder Chronicle themselves.
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The problem here is the player and not the PC that they play. A problem player can make any table they are at worse. A good player can play any PC (regardless of its ‘broken’ state) and make the table better for everyone.
In my opinion it is folly to think that adjusting marks on a page will do anything to influence the behavior of the person running that PC.
There was already too much intellectual superiority to contain even within the walls of a Pathfinder Lodge by me being here, but I will tip my hat to a good point when it's made.
As rarely as that is.
Hmmm, perhaps among all of you worthless plebeians there is actually one worthy of my little and precious time. I already dedicate too much to those clearly beneath my station though so perhaps not...
I'm going to chalk this one up as a fluke chance. As they say, an infinite number of Mwangi apes given a quill and ink will eventually pen a Pathfinder Chronicle themselves.
do we need to cut their tongues out and cast a geas on these apes? to get them to pen Chronicles that is...
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I am sorry to say that a lot of our fellow players consider "the only point of the scenario the combats". Not me, I actually don't even bother with that part of the game. I normally just sit back and let the other players (the "live for the fights" players) to handle that.
I personally love it when the party ends a combat quickly. It means I can go back to talking in silly voices at them.
Note: Just because combat starts does not mean I actually stop talking in silly voices. I just tend to have fewer silly voices for the mooks.
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I guess I just find it difficult to run an effective scenario when I have a character that hits all the scenario monsters on a two, but the monster needs to roll 18's to hit the PC's. Makes the whole adventure seem pointless.To which I must ask "is the only point of a scenario the combats?"I am sorry to say that a lot of our fellow players consider "the only point of the scenario the combats". Not me, I actually don't even bother with that part of the game. I normally just sit back and let the other players (the "live for the fights" players) to handle that.
so I know what you are saying, here's quoting myself from an older thread:
Why do you consider PCs to be all about combat? Why are you defining your PC by his combat stats only? Is this just a combat game for you? I feel really out of place here I think...Or perhaps I feel like a feminist turning to a "jock" and saying:
Fem:"Do you think the ERA is important?" (ERA: Equal Rights Admendment)
Joc:"Very important! Many people discount it, but I feel it's very relavent to determining a players abilities.) (ERA: Earned Run Average).(Power Level):
"I can do 150 HP in a melee round!"
"Yeah, but can you dance?"so when I'm in threads like this I just feel compelled to ask something like "yeah - You've got a Touch AC of 50, and can do 150 HP in a melee round, but are you any good at Tien Tea Ceremony? Can you dance? What's your chance of looking like you belong at the Dukes Ball?"
Of course Taco can dance!
Of course Taco can perform the Tien Tea Ceremony!
Of course Taco belongs at the Duke's ball!
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I had a PC much like the OP's in my first run of Night March of Kalkamedes. It was a mistake to let a 5th level character play with the 1st level characters in the low tier. (Honestly, he could have handled the high tier by himself.)
Thankfully, that scenario has elements that can't be resolved with big numbers. The rest of the party got to shine outside the combats, which ameliorated the problem of Captain Crane Wing Agile Fists. But it highlights the point I made earlier, that if I can't convince the player to restrain himself there is always the REST of the scenario to play up in amusing ways to entertain the rest of the party. NPC interactions (especially reactions of terror to the combat monster) can make for good comedy, and going the extra mile to include good description and non-combat events for the weaker PCs to interact with are the things that become memorable.
No one remembers how Fox McGee murdered an entire encounter of bandits when the gnomish Colonel Sanders was spitting all over the party.
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So when I'm in threads like this I just feel compelled to ask something like "yeah - You've got a Touch AC of 50, and can do 150 HP in a melee round, but are you any good at Tien Tea Ceremony? Can you dance? What's your chance of looking like you belong at the Dukes Ball?"
Of course Taco can dance!
Of course Taco can perform the Tien Tea Ceremony!
Of course Taco belongs at the Duke's ball!
and clearly he is a fun PC to have at the table. (and I have no idea why someone would want to banish him from one...)
He was called a spreadsheet.
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??? you lost me. Sorry. (must be Monday again) :s
So when I'm in threads like this I just feel compelled to ask something like "yeah - You've got a Touch AC of 50, and can do 150 HP in a melee round, but are you any good at Tien Tea Ceremony? Can you dance? What's your chance of looking like you belong at the Dukes Ball?"Of course Taco can dance!
Of course Taco can perform the Tien Tea Ceremony!
Of course Taco belongs at the Duke's ball!
and clearly he is a fun PC to have at the table. (and I have no idea why someone would want to banish him from one...)He was called a spreadsheet.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I used to play regularly with people who were consistently challenged by even the weakest of the higher tier scenarios. Not everyone plays at the same level, you know.
The scenarios aren't fun for anyone except people who like easy mode. And I really doubt that is a significant slice of the fan base.The fact is that I played a 10-11, with most of the table playing up no less, with a CR 14 BBEG and we finished it in 3 or 4 rounds and it was never a serious threat to us. It would have been over sooner except it had a very...
*raises hand* Count me in on the consistently challenged. :-)
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Last thought: this is also a time to evaluate what you like about GMing. If you only enjoy the game when the PCs are dying (or the NPCs are winning), you might need to re-evaluate.
Overall, the PCs are supposed to win on the battle amp. The GM doesn't win on the battle mat, but after the game, when players are talking about how much fun they had, and how the cool NPC was awesome, and how they found out a cool bit of lore that fits their character's motivations, and how we almost died that one time but Billy pulled out a <redacted> that got us through, etc.
Nothing like that....killing PC's is the last thing on my mind. I just want the game to be fun and enjoyable by everyone at the table. The scenario I was running, I ended up roleplaying much more than the scenario had slated. Ultimately the guy was very proud of his overpowered status at the table, and wanted to show everyone how powerful he was. I spoke to him after the game and he just argued until I said, "Well, Good-day sir" and left. I'll likely not run for him again. In a previous module this guy had some funky lore-spirit-something-or-other character that was getting 40+ on all his knowledge checks at level 7.