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I think my own biggest problem with going VMC barbarian, regardless of whether it's core or unchained, is that you're not going to have the ability to kinetic blast during your rage and actually have the benefits apply until 9th level, minimum. You have to pick up moment of clarity at 3rd, perfect clarity at 5th (via extra rage power as a bonus feat), then mad magic at 9th.
Level 17, actually. You don't get your first rage power until level 11 and can't take Extra Rage Power until then. So Moment of Clarity at 11, Perfect Clarity at 13, and Mad Magic at 17 with your next feat.
Making the VMC even more useless.
I think my own biggest problem with going VMC barbarian, regardless of whether it's core or unchained, is that you're not going to have the ability to kinetic blast during your rage and actually have the benefits apply until 9th level, minimum. You have to pick up moment of clarity at 3rd, perfect clarity at 5th (via extra rage power as a bonus feat), then mad magic at 9th.Level 17, actually. You don't get your first rage power until level 11 and can't take Extra Rage Power until then. So Moment of Clarity at 11, Perfect Clarity at 13, and Mad Magic at 17 with your next feat.
Making the VMC even more useless.
Huh. For some reason I thought it said you get a rage power with the rage ability at 3rd, but you're right. And as you said, you can't take extra rage power until you have a rage power to begin with. Sooooo, yep.
Anyway, I'm looking into VMC more, and wondering if perhaps VMC sorcerer might be a good idea? There's dozens of bloodlines, and I'm sure some have the potential to be useful. I'm seeing Ravaged, Haunted, and Martyred having some use. Nanite may be useful if nanite strike can be used with kinetic blades and whips, though that seems dubious. If third-party bloodlines are allowed, Green seems absolutely perfect.
I think my own biggest problem with going VMC barbarian, regardless of whether it's core or unchained, is that you're not going to have the ability to kinetic blast during your rage and actually have the benefits apply until 9th level, minimum. You have to pick up moment of clarity at 3rd, perfect clarity at 5th (via extra rage power as a bonus feat), then mad magic at 9th.Level 17, actually. You don't get your first rage power until level 11 and can't take Extra Rage Power until then. So Moment of Clarity at 11, Perfect Clarity at 13, and Mad Magic at 17 with your next feat.
Making the VMC even more useless.
You could speed that along if you allow re-training.
I actually just thought of something else that I need some clarification on: how exactly does kinetic blade work with full attack actions? Do I only deal the blast's damage with one of the full attack's hits, or does it deal the blast damage with every hit, thus tripling the potential damage? Also, does double give me two of the same type of attack action I used with kinetic blade that turn?
Kinetic blade is a standard action.
There is no full attack action.
EDIT: I stand corrected. That's what I get for commenting without my book in front of me. (But note also that the portion Imbicatus cites answers the question quite clearly. Seems we could all use a dose of RTFM.)
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Kinetic blade is a standard action.
There is no full attack action.
This is completely wrong. you can full attack and apply the blast damage on each hit.
You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade. Since it’s part of another action (and isn’t an action itself), using this wild talent doesn’t provoke any additional attacks of opportunity. The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers to your kinetic blast’s damage as normal, but not your Strength modifier). The blade disappears at the end of your turn. The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast deals, and it interacts with Armor Class and spell resistance as normal for a blast of its type. Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or another unusual object, the attack doesn’t use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticist’s blast damage. The kinetic blade doesn’t add the damage bonus from elemental overflow.
Corrected above. Thanks.
Can you apply it to every hit in the full attack with the base blast?
It says 'once' as part of an attack action. That seems to imply you can use it for a single hit in a full attack.
I will not argue that it has been judged differently in the other various forums, particularly due to dev commentary (Mark seem to be fairly active in those threads), just that it
Is that 'I can use my 10d6 simple blast on every hit', 'I can use quicken and such to get multiple blasts and use them', or is it 'I can use flurry of blasts and amke each of those a blade to use in the full attack'?
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Can you apply it to every hit in the full attack with the base blast?
It says 'once' as part of an attack action. That seems to imply you can use it for a single hit in a full attack.
I will not argue that it has been judged differently in the other various forums, particularly due to dev commentary (Mark seem to be fairly active in those threads), just that it
Is that 'I can use my 10d6 simple blast on every hit', 'I can use quicken and such to get multiple blasts and use them', or is it 'I can use flurry of blasts and amke each of those a blade to use in the full attack'?
Then why does the line "applies your kinetic blast damage on each hit" appear if it was only meant to be used once?
As for flurry of blasts, that has absolutely no overlap. Flurry of Blasts is a form infusion, as is kinetic blade. It's impossible to use them together.
Half of your questions are answered very directly and clearly in the text. It may be worth reading again.
Now, lets take your questions one at a time.
1. "'I can use my 10d6 simple blast on every hit'[?]"
Yes.
The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit.
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2. 'can use quicken and such to get multiple blasts and use them'
No. As I read it, Kinetic Blade only works with certain actions types. Attack actions are not quick actions. Therefore, you cannot Quicken a Kinetic Blade.
You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade.
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3. 'I can use flurry of blasts and amke [sic] each of those a blade to use in the full attack'
No. Flurry of Blasts is a form infusion. (p. 19) Kinetic Blade is a form infusion. (p. 20). You cannot use two form infusions on the same blast.
Each time the kineticist uses one of her kinetic blast wild talents, she can apply up to one associated form infusion and up to one associated substance infusion.
See, the wording seems incredibly tricky like that. Yeah, it says you can use it once, but it says you use it once in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade. I don't see a reason why they would suggest it as a plural on "attacks" or specify that it disappears at the end of one's turn if it wasn't intended that it be possible to use the infusion for multiple attacks in the same turn, even the same action. In fact taking that whole sentence into account implies exactly what I've suggested several times: that the infusion talent modifies the attack action, not the kinetic blast itself.
But yes, lemeres, I'm pretty much asking those first two questions. The first one has been answered. The quicken and double metakinesis abilities are what's in question here, and somewhat hinges on my theory. If kinetic blade does in fact modify the kineticist's attack action rather than his kinetic blast, chances are good that quicken and double won't work since metakinesis specifically affects kinetic blasts, but if it instead turns your kinetic blast talent into an attack action, as most people seem to have implied previously here, then there's no reason quicken and double wouldn't function perfectly normally, and thus you'd be able to make full attacks using quicken and/or double, making two or even three full attacks in a single round (by using buffer or gather power from the previous round to pay for quicken and actual burn to pay for double). And another thing is, if I double a kinetic blade, does that mean if if I used it as a charge, the next kinetic blade has to be a charge as well? The wording of the double metakinesis seems to imply as much.
The last suggestion though is just plain silly, because it runs afoul of the "one form and one substance infusion per kinetic blast" clause. Both kinetic blade and flurry of blasts are form infusions, so you can't turn the blasts used via flurry of blasts into their own kinetic blades anymore than you could turn them into fans of flame or impales.
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I would assume that the instruction to use it once, as part of an attack, charge, or full attack action, would prevent you from using either Quicken or Double metakinesis with Kinetic Blade, since that would mean using kinetic blast as its own swift or standard action.
I'm pretty sure lemeres' (3) wasn't about combining kinetic blade with flurry of blasts, but was asking if kinetic blade ought to be used like flurry of blasts in that you make a full attack's worth of attacks, but each one does a lesser amount of damage. And (2) was about whether, if kinetic blade only gave you blast damage on one attack, you could use quicken to get blast damage on a second attack. Both of these would be valid design approaches, but are not how the ability works.
I would assume that the instruction to use it once, as part of an attack, charge, or full attack action, would prevent you from using either Quicken or Double metakinesis with Kinetic Blade, since that would mean using kinetic blast as its own swift or standard action.
I'm pretty sure lemeres' (3) wasn't about combining kinetic blade with flurry of blasts, but was asking if kinetic blade ought to be used like flurry of blasts in that you make a full attack's worth of attacks, but each one does a lesser amount of damage. And (2) was about whether, if kinetic blade only gave you blast damage on one attack, you could use quicken to get blast damage on a second attack. Both of these would be valid design approaches, but are not how the ability works.
Exactly. I never 'suggested' anything, I was asking because there was honest confusion between the 'once' and 'each attack' bits.
So I simply listed the way it appearantly works, and then two ways I know of that create more blasts (since I was unsure if it only worked once, and you needed some way to get multiple blasts to get the full attack.
With the (APPEARANT) contradiction, my mind was trying to make sense of teh thing since it SEEMed to encrouch upon both quickened (which costs 3 times as much burn) as well as elemental annihilator (whose whole thing is using a bunch of blasts to the point they are basically archery). I was curious since it could cheaply throw out 2-3 blasts that do 10d6 or 20d6
On further thought, I realized...it isn't quite that good. Yes, it can hit multiple times with a blast, but it takes up the form slot (which could go to arguably more useful things like explosion, cloud, frag, deadly earth, etc.). Also, the once does come into play, in the fact that you can't have multiple blades as far as I can see (doing TWF is much more directly the domain of elemental annihilator), so you only get your BAB's worth of blasts...and those are iteratives on a 3/4 BAB class. So the 3rd blast is near useless, and the 2nd one is kinda shaky.
So yeah...I was worrying over something minor. I just wanted clarification, I know this is not the time or place for suggesting rules, and you'll find I am EXTREMELY conservative most of the time when the subject of house rules comes up. I never tried to suggest anything here, I was just trying to make sense of this.
I would assume that the instruction to use it once, as part of an attack, charge, or full attack action, would prevent you from using either Quicken or Double metakinesis with Kinetic Blade, since that would mean using kinetic blast as its own swift or standard action.
I'm pretty sure lemeres' (3) wasn't about combining kinetic blade with flurry of blasts, but was asking if kinetic blade ought to be used like flurry of blasts in that you make a full attack's worth of attacks, but each one does a lesser amount of damage. And (2) was about whether, if kinetic blade only gave you blast damage on one attack, you could use quicken to get blast damage on a second attack. Both of these would be valid design approaches, but are not how the ability works.
Exactly. I never 'suggested' anything, I was asking because there was honest confusion between the 'once' and 'each attack' bits.
So I simply listed the way it appearantly works, and then two ways I know of that create more blasts (since I was unsure if it only worked once, and you needed some way to get multiple blasts to get the full attack.
With the (APPEARANT) contradiction, my mind was trying to make sense of teh thing since it SEEMed to encrouch upon both quickened (which costs 3 times as much burn) as well as elemental annihilator (whose whole thing is using a bunch of blasts to the point they are basically archery). I was curious since it could cheaply throw out 2-3 blasts that do 10d6 or 20d6
On further thought, I realized...it isn't quite that good. Yes, it can hit multiple times with a blast, but it takes up the form slot (which could go to arguably more useful things like explosion, cloud, frag, deadly earth, etc.). Also, the once does come into play, in the fact that you can't have multiple blades as far as I can see (doing TWF is much more directly the domain of elemental annihilator), so you only get your BAB's worth of blasts...and those are iteratives on a 3/4 BAB class. So the 3rd blast is near useless, and the 2nd one is kinda shaky.
So yeah...I was worrying over something minor. I just wanted clarification, I know this is not the time or place for suggesting rules, and you'll find I am EXTREMELY conservative most of the time when the subject of house rules comes up. I never tried to suggest anything here, I was just trying to make sense of this.
So we're back to the same argument I made way back at the end of the first page, when I was speculating on the use of kinetic blade during a rage, should one have rage available to them in some form. That was shot down on the assumption that kinetic blade modified the kinetic blast, while it has been stated on this page of the thread several times that it does, indeed, modify an attack, charge, or full attack. There's still the fact that it's a supernatural ability to contend with, but there's several activated supernatural abilities in the rage powers and bloodrager's bloodline powers lists (such as the lesser elemental rage rage power, or the breath weapon bloodrager bloodline power), so it seems that, unlike spell-like abilities like kinetic blast, there's nothing to stop a kineticist with rage from using the kinetic blade ability. Unless one wants to argue that certain supernatural abilities require patience and concentration where some don't, and aside from specific wording within some supernatural abilities, that's a situation where it'd be up to interpretation, and thus up to the DM to decide.
Regarding the elemental annihilator, it does seem they were meant to be the "jedi" archetype to the vanilla kineticist's "avatar" or the blood kineticist's "bloodbender" (and one can say as much as they like that this isn't specifically the bender class, but whether the mechanics change or not it's pretty clear there was some inspiration there, at least). Devastating infusion, in particular, seems made to essentially give one an option to use their own favored "lightsaber" style, whether they prefer to use a one-handed, two-handed, or dual-wielding style. Of course, just as vanilla does do several things differently from benders, this works differently from jedis in that one may still use their ranged attacks and they still aren't technically wielding their weapons. It seems primarily meant to allow one additional feats to apply to their devastating infusion and flurry of devastation. The thing for me is, I don't know why devastating infusion is even a thing. You're basically being given a free 1d8 weapon that works with Con instead of Str and isn't a real tangible weapon. It's outdamaged by kinetic blade by 3rd level, and by the time you get vital strike, you can deal quite a bit more with just a single hit from kinetic blade, as you also can when you are able to grab improved vital strike. Furthermore, ever-present threat is made less useful by the fact that you could pick up kinetic whip by 11th level (assuming kinetic blade as your bonus wild talent at 7th and you take the same element a second time, otherwise you can't get it until 13th), which persists until the beginning of your next turn and allows higher-damage attacks of opportunity. Flurry of devastation, IMO, is where this archetype shines, since it can be used up close with the two-weapon feats, and you can apply feats that'd normally only affect ranged attack actions to it if you use range. It still seems subpar to me versus the vanilla kineticist but eh.
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That was shot down on the assumption that kinetic blade modified the kinetic blast, while it has been stated on this page of the thread several times that it does, indeed, modify an attack, charge, or full attack.
It's more like spell combat. You are still using a blast (and thus an SLA), but as part of another action instead of as its own standard action.
Kinetic blade is a form infusion, which means it alters the kinetic blast. This means that you can use substance infusions or gather power with kinetic blade. It also means it's still an SLA.
the kinetic blade is a SU that changed the way the SLA blast works.
That was shot down on the assumption that kinetic blade modified the kinetic blast, while it has been stated on this page of the thread several times that it does, indeed, modify an attack, charge, or full attack.It's more like spell combat. You are still using a blast (and thus an SLA), but as part of another action instead of as its own standard action.
Kinetic blade is a form infusion, which means it alters the kinetic blast. This means that you can use substance infusions or gather power with kinetic blade. It also means it's still an SLA.
Okay. So if it works somewhat like spell combat, that tells me that I can choose to replace one, two, or all of the attacks in a full round action with the kinetic blade blast? That means I should be able to use a different infusion and different metakinesis with it each time I attack with it that round, too, or even a different blast talent. So while empowering and maximizing the whole thing is impossible, I could still empower each attack individually, or use an earth blast, air blast, and sandstorm blast all as one full attack, or have my first attack with three metal blasts infused with magnetic infusion so the next two hits will have a better chance of hitting while the others take entangling or rare-metal. Is that accurate?
Sorry if I'm being dense here, it's just that I'm being told so many different things. First it's part of the blast, then it's just the attack but modified, then it's a blast again but replacing attacks. It's hard to get a good feel on what exactly is going on if people can't agree on what the rules are for it.
You use it once as part of a charge, normal attack, or full attack.
It's a form infusion, so it's changing the form of your blast.
You can add a substance infusion to it.
You can't change things after you've made it, you only form the blade once.
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Although the ability "Infusion" is given as supernatural, just because you use an infusion with your blast doesn't change the entire blast into supernatural. You're just modifying your spell-like ability with a supernatural one. Same with using Kinetic Blade/Whip. You're still using a spell-like, but modifying it with supernatural. You still have to "use" your blast to use the blade/whip.
Spell Combat was only referenced as an example of how SLA can be used as part of an attack action. When you're doing Spell Combat you're essentially two-weapon fighting (which is not an SLA by itself), but the casting of the spell within Spell Combat is still a spell. Same with using a blade/whip: you're modifying the type of action needed to use it and it now says it doesn't provoke, but just because it's part of an attack action doesn't mean it suddenly changes away from being an SLA. You're just simply using an SLA within the attack action.
Full-attacking with the blade is still just using a single blast, but Blade/Whip gives you different ways to perform it (attack or full-attack). Since it's still a single blast being used you have to choose and keep the same infusions throughout all of the attacks. After all, you don't have to pay the burn cost for every attack in the blade's full-attack action. You pay the cost of a single blast with whatever modifiers (blade/whip for form and then whatever infusion you decide if any) and then decide whether you're full-attacking with it or only doing a regular attack with it. You do not get to change infusions between swings of the blade during a full-attack action.
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Aziraya Zhwan is correct.
When you use a blast, you may select one form infusion, one substance infusion, and one or more metakinesis effects. You total up the cost, pay burn, and execute the blast as the appropriate action. Just like Quicken modifies the action required to "swift," Kinetic Blade modifies the action to "part of an attack, charge, or full attack." Kinetic Blade also specifies that each attack (of a full attack) deals blast damage, not just the first strike. Like other form infusions that affect multiple targets, any substance infusion used will also be applied with each attack.
Alrighty. Lemme sum up to see if I'm clear. Kinetic blade/whip, as any other infusion, is directly modifying the kinetic blast action. As such, when I use it, it's still using kinetic blast, it just turns it from a regular standard action into my choice of attack actions (between attack, charge, and full attack). Since choosing full attack is part of the standard action of using the kinetic blast, all of the attacks made with it will follow the rules of whatever metakinesis or substance infusions I payed for it (for example, if I use empowered metakinesis, the damage rolls on all three hits from the full attack get multiplied by 1.5, or if I use magnetic infusion with a metal kinetic blade then each attack that hits after the first provides the +4 attack bonus). Correct?
So if that's the case - that the action is a single kinetic blast before anything else, and an attack action second - that's telling me that if I use quicken, it'll be both an attack action AND a swift action, right? And if I use double, I'll be able to full attack twice in a row. However, the opposite's been said a few replies up; that it's an attack action, and therefore not affected by quicken or double. But it was a kinetic blast before it was an attack action, therefore it should quicken or double, which essentially gives me potential for two or even three full attacks in a single round, depending on how much burn I'm willing to take for it and how much of that burn I can reduce so I can fit within the per-round limit.
Once again, I apologize for running this into the ground. I just really want to get this clear.
Anyway, while I'm here, I may as well ask for a few more clarifications:
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Whenever an infused blast deals damage to a foe, attacks made with metal weapons (including metal kinetic blasts) against that foe receive a +4 bonus until the end of your next turn, and the foe takes a –4 penalty on Reflex saving throws to avoid metallic objects.
It doesn't seem to specify what this is a bonus to. I assume to attack rolls, since it implies it's dealing with accuracy?
- If I take kinetic form and become Huge, then use kinetic whip, does that mean I threaten everything in a 30 foot radius with attacks of opportunity (since the kinetic whip persists until the beginning of my next turn and is a reach weapon, and being Huge gives me a 15 foot natural reach)?
- If I take fire's fury and use my fire or blue flame blasts for kinetic blade, would I apply elemental overload bonus once per strike (since normally it doesn't apply said bonus) or would the fact that it doesn't apply the bonus in the first place also nullify the bonus from fire's fury?
Some interesting questions.
If I can parse what you're asking:
You can quicken a blast and then use your kinetic blade for a full attack action. (In that order. It's fuzzier in the other order, because the kinetic blade lasts until the end of the round, so there might be table variation as to whether you can use a later "blast" at a ranged target or not; you wouldn't be able to blast as a melee attack, because kinetic blade is part of an attack action, and you can't quicken that.) Both attacks (blast and blade) can apply a substance infusion, but I believe the infusion cost would have to be paid for each. The same is true for empowered metakinesis. (The empowered cost is only spent once on a double blast, but this is two separate actions.)
Another wrinkle to be aware of: As I understand it, typically a kinetic blast provokes two possible AoOs, one for being a spell-like ability (can be used defensively), and one for making a ranged attack. A quickened blast doesn't provoke an AoO for being spell-like, but your GM may rule that it does provoke for making a ranged attack (even a quickened one).
Magnetic Infusion
The purpose of the +4 bonus for the magnetic infusion appears much earlier in the sentence:
Whenever an infused blast deals damage to a foe, attacks made with metal weapons (including metal kinetic blasts) against that foe receive a +4 bonus until the end of your next turn, and the foe takes a –4 penalty on Reflex saving throws to avoid metallic objects
Size/threaten
As to the size/threaten question, yes, you threaten with increased range.This functions as kinetic blade but counts as a reach weapon appropriate for your size.
Your size is bigger, so your whip is bigger. It's one of the few benefits the kineticist gets for being bigger.
Fire's Fury
As kinetic blade doesn’t add the damage bonus from elemental overflow, I would rule Fire's Fury doesn't apply to the kinetic blade, but I can see your argument. Expect table variation.
While most of what TomG states is true, I have to disagree about the Metakinesis.
Empower/Maximize are pretty straightforward. You pay the cost once, and ALL your attacks get the bonus damage.
Quicken is only of use though once you get the x2, because it lets you summon 2 Whips at the same time, and use them both. It doesn't grant any extra attacks, and you'll still want 2-weapon fighting feats to make any decent use of 2 whips.
Quicken by itself does nothing for the Whip/Blade because you've attached your blast to another action, and you can't change that action.
Note: This is interpretation of the rules, I'm not being adamant in these being the rules as written, but I'm pretty sure this is an accurate interpretation. :P
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While most of what TomG states is true, I have to disagree about the Metakinesis.
Empower/Maximize are pretty straightforward. You pay the cost once, and ALL your attacks get the bonus damage.
Quicken is only of use though once you get the x2, because it lets you summon 2 Whips at the same time, and use them both. It doesn't grant any extra attacks, and you'll still want 2-weapon fighting feats to make any decent use of 2 whips.
Quicken by itself does nothing for the Whip/Blade because you've attached your blast to another action, and you can't change that action.
Note: This is interpretation of the rules, I'm not being adamant in these being the rules as written, but I'm pretty sure this is an accurate interpretation. :P
...eh, two-weapon fighting (the special action in the combat section) requires you to be WIELDING a weapon in your off-hand, which with KB/W isn't the case, so you can't use two-weapon fighting (or its corresponding feats) to make two attacks. Quicken is pretty garbo for KB/W wielders, although to be fair, they already have enough damage without needing to resort to this. Let me know if I'm missing something with this though, since I wouldn't mind being wrong.
Some interesting questions.
If I can parse what you're asking:
You can quicken a blast and then use your kinetic blade for a full attack action. (In that order. It's fuzzier in the other order, because the kinetic blade lasts until the end of the round, so there might be table variation as to whether you can use a later "blast" at a ranged target or not; you wouldn't be able to blast as a melee attack, because kinetic blade is part of an attack action, and you can't quicken that.) Both attacks (blast and blade) can apply a substance infusion, but I believe the infusion cost would have to be paid for each. The same is true for empowered metakinesis. (The empowered cost is only spent once on a double blast, but this is two separate actions.)
Another wrinkle to be aware of: As I understand it, typically a kinetic blast provokes two possible AoOs, one for being a spell-like ability (can be used defensively), and one for making a ranged attack. A quickened blast doesn't provoke an AoO for being spell-like, but your GM may rule that it does provoke for making a ranged attack (even a quickened one).
Although the ability "Infusion" is given as supernatural, just because you use an infusion with your blast doesn't change the entire blast into supernatural. You're just modifying your spell-like ability with a supernatural one. Same with using Kinetic Blade/Whip. You're still using a spell-like, but modifying it with supernatural. You still have to "use" your blast to use the blade/whip.
Okay, now I'm confused all over again.
From what I'm gathering, there's two conflicting schools of thought here. One is that the kinetic blade infusion turns a kinetic blast from a standard action into whatever type of attack action once you've chosen to use it, while the other is that you're choosing to attack, then as the attack resolves, you choose to use your kinetic blade as part of it, thus never actually involving the kinetic blast outside of reading it for damage, saves, etc. It's kinda like things are being grouped in different ways, and each way you group it differently affects what can happen. So the way things are nested are like:
Kinetic Blast > Kinetic Blade, substance infusion, metakinesis > Attack, Charge, or Full Attack
or
Attack, Charge, or Full Attack > Kinetic Blade, substance infusion, metakinesis
If it resolves the first way, you first say, "I'm going to use a metal blast." Then, "I'm going to make this blast a kinetic blade with the magnetic infusion and empower metakinesis." Then lastly, "I'm going to make my empowered magnetic metal blade blast into a full attack." In this case, I'd assume that if you pick quicken, it'd quicken the blast, and therefore the full attack turns from a full-round action into a swift action, because it's already been quickened before it ever was a full attack.
If it resolves the second way, you first say, "I'm going to use a full attack." Then, "I'm going to make this full attack with an empowered magnetic metal blade blast." If we do it this way, it's an attack before the metakinesis is applied, and because you can't quicken or double an attack action, neither of those metakineses would have any effect. But then, logically, you couldn't use empower or maximize on it, since metakinesis specifically modifies a blast talent.
To be fair, this really is more a situation of "what is the most I can do under absolutely perfect conditions" because it's highly unlikely this character is starting as a 20th level kineticist, and even then, the cases where he'd be able to accept that much burn at once and it proves beneficial to waste it all in one round while provoking multiple attacks of opportunity that go untaken are going to be nigh non-existent.
True, Jolly, there's really no sense to use either then, since 7 burn for +1 attack at those penalties is not even remotely worth it...
Onyx, I think you're reading more into it than there is. Your blades are summoned as part of another action. Forget the whole Standard Action to summon the blades. Your summoning of the blades is now part of another action. At this point the only thing that can affect the duration of that action (swift/standard/full/etc) is the other action. So, Quicken is straight out.
So, "I'm going to make this full attack with an empowered magnetic metal blade blast." is correct. There is no "logically, you couldn't use empower" since you are modifying the blast talent. The fact that the blast talent is a subcategory of the attack has no bearing on the fact that you're still doing a blast talent.
Maybe a better way to write it would be:
Gain 1 Free Action this turn in which you can: Summon Empowered Magnetic Metal Blade Blast.
You have a blade in your hand, what do you do with it?
While most of what TomG states is true, I have to disagree about the Metakinesis.
Empower/Maximize are pretty straightforward. You pay the cost once, and ALL your attacks get the bonus damage.
Quicken is only of use though once you get the x2, because it lets you summon 2 Whips at the same time, and use them both. It doesn't grant any extra attacks, and you'll still want 2-weapon fighting feats to make any decent use of 2 whips.
Quicken by itself does nothing for the Whip/Blade because you've attached your blast to another action, and you can't change that action.
Note: This is interpretation of the rules, I'm not being adamant in these being the rules as written, but I'm pretty sure this is an accurate interpretation. :P
Hmm, interesting thought with double whip. I'm not sure I agree it works that way, but I do agree it's not clear. I think the best response I can find is this:
You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action
This suggests to me that TWF with whip/blade is a no-no (with two kinetic weapons, I mean; with a "mundane" weapon it'd still work), as under your argument it would require two burns for blade.
Metakinesis
Metakinesis (Su): ... By accepting 1 point of burn, she can empower her kinetic blast (as if using Empower Spell). At 9th level, by accepting 2 points of burn, she can maximize her kinetic blast as if using Maximize Spell.
... At 17th level, by accepting 4 points of burn, the kineticist can use her kinetic blast twice with the same standard action, or swift action if she also uses metakinesis to quicken the blast. When she uses a double kinetic blast, all modifications, such as metakinesis and infusions, apply to both of the blasts, but the kineticist needs to pay the burn cost only once.
I had to read this a couple of times. I was originally misunderstood, thinking 17 allowed for a quick and a doubled, but what it really permits is a quick and a standard, (for a total of two, not three, although either could apply Flurry). So Sphynx is correct, one empower/maximize would work with both quick and standard blasts in the same turn.
Returning to TWF
This realization also clarifies the blade/whip TWF argument: as discussed, it's not technically a double blast (although it's equivalent in most senses), but a quick and a standard that can use the same metakinesis. However, as we've already discussed, blade/whip doesn't work with the quick one, because attack actions are not quick.
On Action Economy
One is that the kinetic blade infusion turns a kinetic blast from a standard action into whatever type of attack action once you've chosen to use it.
Shroudb is correct here. It doesn't turn one type of action into another. Rather, it's a weird case of kinetic blade being a free action when used as part of an attack action. In most instances the distinction has little effect, but when discussing iterative attacks and TWF the distinction becomes important.
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Mark said that double Kinetic Blade should be allowed to 2WF, I don't have the quote handy atm.
And it makes sense since you take 3 (2 at 19) unmitigable Burn each round you do that.
Alrighty. So that would limit the total attacks I can do in a round to doing one quickened blast, then doing one regular kinetic blade while using an offhand weapon (or a doubled kinetic blast if one can fight with both). Quicken would do nothing for a kinetic blade, and double, rather than giving me two actions, will give me two kinetic weapons. And if I do go the dual-wield route, I'd either have to confirm two-weapon fighting works with a doubled kinetic blade or just pick up a decent light or one-handed simple weapon (preferably metallic, should I use electric or metal blasts). Regardless I'd need all three two-weapon fighting feats (2WF, improved 2WF, and greater 2WF), giving my full attack three hits wih the kinetic blade/whip and three more with my offhand. I'd still feasibly have six attacks in a round, but everything except the initial one is much weaker and more likely to miss.
This could still be useful, as I could hit an enemy with a quickened magnetic metal blast, then step in with a 5 foot step and use a full attack. If I also happen to be Large or Huge from kinetic form I may even be able to do this without provoking attacks of opportunity unless my target has a means of ranged attack or there's other enemies that could threaten me. However, if it doesn't work with a double kinetic whip, I'd need a reach weapon (which means an additional feat to become proficient with a whip and/or scorpion whip as well as finding one of these weapons that is metallic) and at least 19 Dex. That means half my feats are already taken up just to be able to make those six attacks per round, so that scorpion whip had better be the best scorpion whip known to mankind if I'm gonna thing about doing this.
I can see another way this could work, though, and that's by using telekinetic blast. Since that requires a weapon to imbue the force onto, if one has the quick draw feat, they could dual-wield anything, keeping both weapons sheathed, then use a doubled kinetic weapon to imbue both with their telekinetic blast, draw them, and make their attack. However, I'm not entirely sure if they could actually do that, since the kinetic blade is part of the attack, so they may not be able to interrupt it to draw their actual weapons. At least one weapon needs to be sheathed so they have a free hand with which to use the blast, s if one can't pull their offhand mid-attack that more or less ruins the feasibility of this.
Honestly, though, even if the above is possible, I'm more likely to just stick with one attack (maybe using the quickened blast as well) and go with an Earth/Earth/Aether build to utilize his defense talents on top of that. Kinetic blades and whips already deal quite a bit of damage, so I have no issue with that getting cut back to 3-4 attacks with the blast in a single turn.
So I found a 3.0 feat that, pending a DM's approval, might just allow my kineticist/barbarian to work after all.
http://dndtools.pw/feats/savage-species--47/supernatural-transformation--28 49/
This could prove somewhat broken for pyrokineticists who either go all fire, or fire/air with electric blast as their air kinetic blast. Turning kinetic blast from a spell-like into a supernatural allows it to ignore spell resistance, which burning, flash, and thundering infusions rely on piercing to work, and it makes pure-flame a total waste of burn. However, consider that all physical blasts ignore spell resistance anyway, and all three of those above infusions can apply to physical composite blasts (magma can use burning, thunderstorm can use thundering, and plasma can use both burning and flash). Beyond this, the only thing that changes is that they no longer require concentration, allowing them to be used while raging.
But then, it's a really old feat, and kineticist was clearly not designed with 3.0 feats in mind. It'd probably be a longshot to get a DM who's okay with taking both kineticists and 3.0 feats. Still, it's something.
Supernatural Transformation does not apply to spell-like abilities gained from class levels or else the 3.5e Warlock would have been god tier.
Supernatural Transformation does not apply to spell-like abilities gained from class levels or else the 3.5e Warlock would have been god tier.
Ah, gotcha. I suppose then "innate" means something it knows based on its race, or something else it would be naturally, as opposed to something it'd train to be?
Anyway, not a big deal. :P
I realize I'm sorta necroposting here, but I didn't want to start a whole new thread, and this is a relevant question to the main topic anyway, so...
1 - Suppose I use a negative or void blast with enervating infusion and a form infusion that can deal damage multiple times (such as singularity or mobile blast). Will a negative level be applied every time the blast deals damage, or will it only be dealt on the first instance in which damage is dealt?
2 - Suppose I'm airborne and I use a pulling infusion gravity or void blast on an enemy directly below me. Would I be able to drag them up into the air (potentially making them incur additional fall damage after my blast resolves), or does this only drag an enemy in a horizontal direction?
3 - Not specifically a kineticist question but since it involves their B&B ability score it's pretty relevant. When my Con mod increases by level-up, do I gain an additional HP from that level onward, or does the extra HP also apply retroactively? For example, say I've advanced to 8th, and for my bonus ability score I choose to up my Con from 19 to 20, thus raising my Con mod. Will I gain an extra 7 HP on top of what I'm getting from by hit dice to cover the previous levels when my Con mod was a point less? Also would I be right to assume this applies to Con bonuses as well (meaning the elemental overflow bonus gives me 1 HP per level at 3 burn, 2 HP per level at 5 burn, or 3 HP per level at 7 burn, assuming I put my highest bonus into Con)?
4 - If the above is true, and I have enough damage on me that losing my Con bonus (and thus the bonus HP that comes with it) would knock me unconscious, does that mean I can't turn off my elemental overdrive, or that I can still do so as long as I'm willing to pass out as a result?
5 - Understandably it'd be a bit of a bad idea to multiclass as a kineticist (aside from maybe using VMC) since their damage is dependent on their kineticist level. However, would it be worthwhile to multiclass as a mesmerist 7/kineticist 13? This gives my blasts 7d6/14d6 damage, and through painful stare/intense pain, I'll be able to get an extra 3d6+2 damage, meaning I'm actually doing about equal damage on a simple blast, while only losing 3 dice off of a composite blast. Or I could forgo that 3d6+2 for bleed 2 if I like. (Not saying this is a great idea, but some of you may have seen from the threads I post/comment in that I prefer interesting ideas to minmaxing, and this could prove an interesting idea IMO.)
1 - Yes, I think it would deal multiple negative levels over time.
2 - I don't see why it wouldn't also pull someone up.
3 - Constitution increases grant you extra hit points for all your levels, past and present.
4 - You could potentially accrue enough burn to knock yourself unconscious.
5 - You might come close to matching a straight kineticist's basic blast damage, but having lost out on numerous class abilities necessary for pumping your damage (elemental overflow bonuses, high level infusions, metakinesis, multiple attacks, etc.) you're going to end up not even coming close.
Is the range listed on a simple or composite a capstone or is that a range increment?
That is the capstone. To increase the range of any blast you need to have the Extended Range, Extreme Range, or Air's Reach Wild Talents. Extended Range and Extreme Range are both Form Infusions that require a Burn cost to increase the range. Air's Reach is a Utility Wild Talent with 0 Burn cost that doubles the range or any Air blast, wild talent, or composite blast.
Hopefully that answers your question!
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Is the range listed on a simple or composite a capstone or is that a range increment?That is the capstone. To increase the range of any blast you need to have the Extended Range, Extreme Range, or Air's Reach Wild Talents. Extended Range and Extreme Range are both Form Infusions that require a Burn cost to increase the range. Air's Reach is a Utility Wild Talent with 0 Burn cost that doubles the range or any Air blast, wild talent, or composite blast.
Hopefully that answers your question!
Yes though I had hoped it was an increment rather than the max. Oh well.