I'm thinking that simply removing the 2,000g would make it level 6. But I've never done this before. Thoughts?
I'm comparing this to Awaken at level 5, obviously, and also mainly Polymorph Any Object, which is level 8 can also turn a mouse into an intelligent creature, for instance.
Note that polymorph has no material cost.
Polymorph has the ADVANTAGE of insanely higher flexibility. The no-cost awaken has no flexibility, so this suggests a lower level
Polymorph has the ADVANTAGE of also changing physical form and strength. Awaken does less stuff. An awakening using polymorph rules would also way overshoot the amount of similarities needed for permanent duration, suggesting even a little bit weaker still.
Polymorph has the DISADVANTAGE of permanent duration not instantaneous, so awaken is more powerful in this sense as it cannot be dispelled.
So sort of a -2 +1, but the flexibility thing seems more important than the other two. Thus, I'm kind of on the fence between level 6 and level 7. Normally I would add a (lesser) material cost to bridge the gap, but the whole point is getting rid of the material cost!
I was under the impression that the reason why Awaken has an expensive material component is because it gives your character a permanent ally.
Generally, character strength is a combination of their class strength and their gear strength. Gear strength is usually expressed in magic items, but Awaken lets you use Gear strength to make permanent allies. Taking away the material cost will make this new Awaken give the character theoretically infinite gear strength.
Polymorph any object can make creatures, but there isn't any text hinting that they are aligned with you.
If you made a new custom Awaken spell without a cost, then you should prepare yourself for a player who prepares this custom spell every day and keeps increasing his/her power for every casting of this spell.
There's no need to remove the material component cost in my mind. I can see no compelling reason why it needs to be done.
What are you hoping to accomplish by removing the component?
Quote: you should prepare yourself for a player who prepares this custom spell every day and keeps increasing his/her power for every casting of this spell. it says in the spell that if you cast it more than once, the previous awakened animals lose any and all minor charm or connection/compulsion they may have had to align with you.
I.e. to the extent that they serve as your companion (which is actually iffy even with one casting), it's only the most recently awakened one.
The others are just like any NPC. If you allow leadership, they might be led, or whatever, but no more easily than random humans living in the town you pass through. They have their own lives.
Quote: you should prepare yourself for a player who prepares this custom spell every day and keeps increasing his/her power for every casting of this spell. Campaign / plot concept of animals having a reasonable chance of multiplying their ranks and taking over the world by self-replicating their awoken-ness exponentially. Unless the PCs do something about it blah blah.
I just want a realistic feeling flavor of "this is seemingly innocuous and within general spell research guidelines" for plausibility and immersion.
Even if I don't end up running said campaign, I think it's an interesting thought experiment how much of a tweak it would really need.
A plant or animal created by Awaken is much more powerful than on created by polymorph an object. Polymorph an object can only grant a mental stat of 5. Awaken can give a creature the full normal human range of INT. With a high enough roll you can end up with an animal with an 18 INT. It also grants an extra 2 HD to an animal.
Also polymorph object cannot simply grant abilities to a creature it has to turn it into an existing creature. So you can’t turn a wolf into an intelligent wolf, but you could turn it into a human. That human would have the physical stats of the wolf and a INT of 5, WIS 12 and a CHA of 6. The awakened wolf will have the same physical stats, but an intelligence between 3-18 (10.5 average), WIS of 12 and a CHA.
An awakened animal could also take levels in a class to further boost its ability. Because of all of these reasons I would be very hesitant to allow a spell like this. The only reason to create a spell like this would be to create an army of intelligent animals. If I did allow a spell like this I would probably put the level to at least 8th, but more than likely 9th. By this level most characters are not worried about cost as they have multiple ways to raise the required gold.
Also since Awaken is a druid only spell I doubt it would be available. I don’t see the forces of nature allowing the creation of armies of intelligent animals. This would be too disruptive of the natural order.
I personally thought it was pretty clearly implied by the polymorph any object spell text that since you get a +2 in the chart for "turning into something of equal or lesser intelligence" that mental stats were being considered transferred here.
I guess it does not actually explicitly say that, though. If a mouse turned to a human still just has INT 1, then it is much less powerful for that application (not even 5 since 1 is still "having an INT score")
Quote: Also since Awaken is a druid only spell I doubt it would be available. You could also simply conceive of it as a researched alternative to Polymorph any Object? Narrower flexibility, modified stat rules, level 8 or 9. Arcane magic then not particularly caring about the natural order.
takes a deep breath
How about just using Blood Money?
runs
Allowing blood money in a campaign for story purposes implies it can't reasonably be restricted for every other purpose...
Seems much less dangerous and less contradictory to do it as a recently researched spell. Which implies research is a thing, but any particular other research a PC wants to do could plausibly just work or not work / can be individually assessed without breaking story.
Also regarding druid spells, from Druid:
Quote: Within the purity of the elements and the order of the wilds lingers a power beyond the marvels of civilization. Furtive yet undeniable, these primal magics are guarded over by servants of philosophical balance known as druids. Allies to beasts and manipulators of nature, these often misunderstood protectors of the wild strive to shield their lands from all who would threaten them and prove the might of the wilds to those who lock themselves behind city walls. Rewarded for their devotion with incredible powers, druids gain unparalleled shape-shifting abilities, the companionship of mighty beasts, and the power to call upon nature's wrath. The mightiest temper powers akin to storms, earthquakes, and volcanoes with primeval wisdom long abandoned and forgotten by civilization. Bolded -- things that suggest awakening all animals might be totally cool or even implied as a desirable thing directly from a druidic standpoint.
Italics -- the one thing that I think might argue against, "servants of philosophical balance."
Also important to note: if awakening is anti-druidic, why is awakening a spell at all... since it's only druidic?
I don't really know why you're comparing Polymorph Any Object to Awaken, because PAO doesn't make allies. It just makes creatures or objects that are likely to kill you as much as any other being.
Awaken, on the other hand, makes magical beasts that follow your orders. Even if cast multiple times, the other awakened beasts still remain friendly to you.
I think you're upselling the ally nature of awaken by a good amount. But regardless, I don't care about that aspect of it at all.
Let's just say the newly researched spell carries with it none of the friendly-making or charm effects hinted at by awaken at all. That would work as well or better even.
The reason why I'm mentioning ally-making a lot is because there are many spells that create allies that last for a long duration. Besides Awaken, there is Animate Dead, Planar Binding / Ally, Permanency + Animate Object, (Greater) Create Undead*, and to a certain extent, crafting constructs. Generally, all these spells have expensive material components**. I think the pattern here is that the rules allow players to use gold to strengthen their characters in ways other than magic items.
If your new spell doesn't make allies, it doesn't need to be gold-restricted because it doesn't strengthen the caster. Thus, I'd personally place it at the same level as Awaken.
* For Create Undead, I assume you can somehow command them as per the spell description.
** I acknowledge that there are some spells that give you a long-term ally with no material cost, such as Shambler. I believe there are only a few of these kinds of spells, and Shambler itself is a 9th level non-permanent druid-only spell.
Interesting, thanks void.
Crimeo wrote: I personally thought it was pretty clearly implied by the polymorph any object spell text that since you get a +2 in the chart for "turning into something of equal or lesser intelligence" that mental stats were being considered transferred here.
I guess it does not actually explicitly say that, though. If a mouse turned to a human still just has INT 1, then it is much less powerful for that application (not even 5 since 1 is still "having an INT score")
Quote: Also since Awaken is a druid only spell I doubt it would be available. You could also simply conceive of it as a researched alternative to Polymorph any Object? Narrower flexibility, modified stat rules, level 8 or 9. Arcane magic then not particularly caring about the natural order.
It states directly in the spell what happens when you turns something that does not have stats to something that does.
Polymorph Object
If the target of the spell does not have physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), this spell grants a base score of 10 to each missing ability score. If the target of the spell does not have mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), this spell grants a score of 5 to such scores. Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force. A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren't affected by this spell.
Strictly by the rules an animal does have mental stats so it would not grant them anything. I could see allowing an animal to gain an INT of 5, but even that would be a house rule. Turning a pebble into a human would grant the pebble a 5 in each of the mental stats so that would not be too much of a stretch.
Awaken
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
What you are missing is awaken turns the creature into a fully sentient Magical Beast. And actually increases it power by granting it 2 extra HD. This is significantly more than what polymorph object can achieve. It becomes a magical beast instead of an animal which means it now has full BAB, d10 Hit Dice, and both darkvision and low-light vision.
If you don't want a material cost on the spell, just remove it. No need for level adjustment. Remember, 5th level spells comes online at level 9/10 and I don't think removing the 2000gp cost will make it a more attractive or a better spell by then. I would consider preparing the spell if we got to a situation where we needed it, I wouldn't prepare it as one of my standard daily spells. And it's not untill very high levels when someone actually could run around cast it willy-nilly, no matter if it's a 5th or 6th level spell.
Quote: It states directly in the spell what happens when you turns something that does not have stats to something that does. Animals have intelligence stats, so that clause doesn't apply. It's meant for like turning a cabinet into a rabbit, etc.
I originally thought that the other clause I mentioned implied they would just take on the others' stats if going creature to creature, but I misread it. It doesn't, so thus you would fall back on normal polymorph rules of not changing any stats in those cases.
Also, I don't care about the 2 hitdice either, happy to drop those in addition to the friendly demeanor as part of a new spell.
Anyway, it seems like the general consensus is that higher levels would only really normally matter in the sense that it gives you a creature that can help you maul things. So 5th or 6th if those aspects are removed (hitdice, willingness to tag along with you automatically, possibly the magical beast template, except I don't think awaken grants the useful stuff from it like darkvision)
I would just bump it up one level, seems fair.
Had a player in my last campaign that ran around casting it on trees lining the major highway... solved the bandit problem pretty quick.
:D
It was my impression that when designing spells you came up with the concept then determined the level and any additional costs needed to balance it for game play. Researching a spell without a spell component, or a xth level version of some spell, shouldn't really be a thing.
Making free version of spells one level higher is probably a bad precedent to set, maybe turning the gold piece requirement into a specific good or service that needs to be provided/performed would be better.
After rereading what you are looking to do with the spell it is apparent that you need more than just a higher level awaken to accomplish your goals. You want to create a race of sentient animals that can breed true. It’s doubtful if an awakened animal will be able to pass on its abilities. Since its type is changed to a magical beast it probably can’t even breed with normal animals. Even breeding with other awakened animals may not be possible. The change may render the animal sterile.
There is only really two spells that could even come close to doing what you want. Those spells are Miracle and Wish. Even so this would fall under the greater effect clause. This is probably the best way to achieve what you want.
Quote: You want to create a race of sentient animals that can breed true. They don't need to breed true. Since awakened animals can take class levels, a small portion of them can just become druids and reproduce and spread via the spell itself.
Only a small portion is needed, because if you use 5 or 6 spell slots every day of your life for ~20 to 30 years (a lot of animals don't live all that long, but the longer lived ones can be the life givers), you've awakened 60,000 other animals, at least a couple of which will statistically attain high druidic levels to expand that trend.
Also, this is ignoring the fact that pearls of power exist. So in reality, it can expand way faster than that, even, because just a few pearls (which your 60,000 followers can easily reimburse from their travels) can double, triple, quadruple the number you can awaken in your life, leading to an even higher exponent of spread.
Vermin are probably not sustainable for living too short of lives to reach spellcasting levels needed to take care of their own populations, but pretty much everything else would work.
Hey, Crimeo. If you're the GM, just do what you want.
I've seen this done in gameplay, it didn't break anything.
The caster was using blood money or something to avoid the cost, never caused any problems.
Maybe bump it up two levels, your game, your choice.
We've always assumed awakened critters can breed true (with other awakened members of their respective species).
You don't need to worry about the PCs abusing this, because Awaken does NOT make the critter your animal companion, or even a loyal follower.
The text in the animal archive deals with this best:
An adventurer considering awakening his animal companion should keep in mind the awaken spell's potential drawbacks. Most pointedly, awakened animals can no longer serve as companions, and the character must follow the rules for Leadership if he wishes to take the animal as an official cohort. Further, an intelligent animal can be difficult to manage. After awakening, animals are predisposed to be friendly toward whoever cast the spell— in this case, presumably their masters. Yet if an animal was mistreated during its time as a companion, or is treated poorly after its awakening, that friendliness is mixed with a sense of confusion that can last anywhere from a few moments to a few hours as the animal reconciles the abuse with the great gift it's been given. Since awaken is not a charm or mind-control spell, there's nothing to prevent awakened animals from resenting mistreatment in the same way a normal person of their intelligence level would, and they're no more inclined to be automatically servile than anyone else. More than one careless druid has found her awakened animal companion refusing to follow instructions, leaving to pursue its own goals, or even seeking vengeance for its former “enslavement.”
Sounds like a neat campaign btw.
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