Swift / Free action abilities performed with higher actions?

[Driver_325yards]

Can abilities that can be performed as a free/immediate/swift action be performed as a move or a standard action?

[Brf]

No.
You can perform a Move action in place of your Standard action. That is the only "replacement" you can do with action types.

[Driver_325yards]

Hmmm! Are you sure? Is there a ruling somewhere to point to.

The reason why I asks is because there are several Pathfinder class abilities that start off as move action abilities or standard action abilities that later become swift action abilities.

Your ruling leads to weird consequences. So if I have an ability at 1st level that I can perform as a move action, I can also choose to perform it as a standard ability.

However, if the ability becomes a swift action ability at let's say 5th level, I can no longer perform the ability as a standard action?

That does not sound right, at least at first blush.

[Johnny_Devo]

you can read up on actions in combat here.

The relevant text:

Quote:

In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.

The only replacement it specifically allows is a move action in place of a standard action, thus that's the only one you can replace.

Aside from that, from a balance perspective, swift actions are actually one of the most valuable action types. If a character were allowed to do 2 or even 3 swift actions in a single round, it would get out of control pretty quickly.

[Mathmuse]

Driver_325yards wrote:

However, if the ability becomes a swift action ability at let's say 5th level, I can no longer perform the ability as a standard action?

That does not sound right, at least at first blush.

Check the wording on the ability. For example, starting a bardic performance is possible as a standard action at first level, as a move action at seventh level, and as a swift action at thirteenth level.

Core Rulebook wrote:

At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action.

But the actual wording for swift action does not remove the previous ability to start a bardic performance as a move action, so the bard has both choices available.

[Avoron]

You can replace a standard action with a swift action by readying a swift action.

But apart from readying, standard to move is the only conversion you can do.

[Johnny_Devo]

Avoron wrote:

You can replace a standard action with a swift action by readying a swift action.

But apart from readying, standard to move is the only conversion you can do.

I actually remember there being some debate upon that subject. Something about there being a separate clause about being limited to a single swift action per round period.

[WatersLethe]

When I DM I allow the conversion of a standard action into a swift action, but I do not allow converting a move action in the same way.

I have yet to run into an issue with this house rule, and if anyone can point out a way in which it could become problematic please let me know.

[Avoron]

Johnny_Devo wrote:

Avoron wrote:

You can replace a standard action with a swift action by readying a swift action.

But apart from readying, standard to move is the only conversion you can do.

I actually remember there being some debate upon that subject. Something about there being a separate clause about being limited to a single swift action per round period.

The specific readying rules trump the general action economy rules.

Also, the limit is once per turn, not once per round, so it wouldn't have an affect on readied actions anyway.

Swift Action wrote:

Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

[Metal Sonic]

If you allow more that 1 Swift per Round the Casters will break the game even more with 3 Quickened spells in a single Round.

[Claxon]

Immediate actions are once per round only, as are swift actions. An "unlimited" number of free actions are allowed as long as it is your turn.

There are no rules saying you can convert a standard or move into a swift or immediate action.

I believe there is a rule saying that using an immediate action uses up your swift action for the next round. However, I cannot find the passage. D20pfsrd says that the immediate action uses up your swift action if performed on your turn, instead of the swift action of your next turn. Which I also cannot find on the PRD.

Since there are no rules to allow converting other action types into swift or immediate actions, you cannot by the rules.

Further, you should not alter the rules to allow it because swift actions tend to be quite powerful, and Paizo has purposefully made many classes rely on them and be forced to slowly power up through their swift actions instead of being able to activate them all at once. That the intention, it's not a bug.

[Naal]

Swift actions are mostly used for special ability activations or quickened spells. Allowing more than one per round could result in odd cases. As a houserule, I might be willing to allow some to be used with a ready action on case-by-case basis, but at the moment I can't think of anything that would qualify.

Claxon wrote:

I believe there is a rule saying that using an immediate action uses up your swift action for the next round. However, I cannot find the passage. D20pfsrd says that the immediate action uses up your swift action if performed on your turn, instead of the swift action of your next turn. Which I also cannot find on the PRD.

You are correct. Core rulebook page 189, Immediate actions, second paragraph. No idea if it appears on PRD.

[Avoron]

Here's the complete rule.

Immediate Actions wrote:

Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

So if you use an immediate action on your turn, it's just like a swift action. If you use an immediate action when it's not your turn, it uses your swift action for your next turn - even if you use it after your turn, later in the same round.

Claxon, what do you think about readying swift actions? Your post seemed to imply that you wouldn't allow it, but the rules seem fairly unambiguous. If my GM randomly didn't allow me to ready, say, a casting of Instant Enemy, I would be a little bit annoyed, not to mention confused.

[Claxon]

Quote:

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.

So, by the rules it's allowed. But I think the intention is supposed to prevent you from taking more than 1 swift action in a round.