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Can a kineticist apply Weapon Finesse to his kinetic blade and kinetic whip wild talents?
I just created a new pyrokineticist hobgoblin mercenary character that operates under this assumption, but I'd like to know for sure.
You can, that's why there is the option to make light weapons with your kinetic blade.
Good question, so I hit FAQ. It says the weapon can be light or one-handed, so at first you think you can if you choose light. But then it says the shape is merely cosmetic, which makes it questionable.
Along a similar line of thought. If the weapon is one-handed, does that mean you can use it for 2 handed power attack?
Found Mark's playtest post on the subject.
Shape is cosmetic. Size matters. (Hmmmm that sounded a tad dirty somehow). So as long as you make the blade/whip a light weapon you can finesse it.
Obviously him considering adding weapon properties never happened.
If the blade is one-handed I think it can be held two handed for two-handed Power Attack bonuses. Since power attack never cared if you actually 1.5x the ability modifier involved with damage or not (e.g. Agile Elven curve blade and power attack) but that it's a one-handed or two-handed weapon held in both hands.
What about telekineticists? I don't have the rules in front of me, but if the object used is irrelevant, could a telekineticist use, say, a quarterstaff as a finesse weapon?
I'm guessing probably not, but it would make my totally-not-a-jedi happy.
What about telekineticists? I don't have the rules in front of me, but if the object used is irrelevant, could a telekineticist use, say, a quarterstaff as a finesse weapon?
I'm guessing probably not, but it would make my totally-not-a-jedi happy.
For all of the Cloud wannabes, that may be awesome. Now you can one-hand that greatsword. The only limit is "Can you hold it in one hand?", and not if you can wield it in one hand. I was previously tempted to use an umbrella.
Edit: Of course it won't be caring about the greatsword's stats, but you will totally look like you are one-handing one.
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What about telekineticists? I don't have the rules in front of me, but if the object used is irrelevant, could a telekineticist use, say, a quarterstaff as a finesse weapon?
I'm guessing probably not, but it would make my totally-not-a-jedi happy.
Telekinesticists rely on other objects to do their damage. It alters a wielded weapon and you use that weapon to hit then only deal kinetic blast damage.
Also, Jedi? Super Saiyan! I plan to form gauntlets for lightning fists!
What about telekineticists? I don't have the rules in front of me, but if the object used is irrelevant, could a telekineticist use, say, a quarterstaff as a finesse weapon?
I'm guessing probably not, but it would make my totally-not-a-jedi happy.
For telekineticists, it says instead of creating a kinetic blade of a size of your choice, "you instead transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand."
So yea, I'd say that telekineticists would need to be holding a finessable object (hanbo or light improvised weapon like a frying pan) to benefit from Finesse and kinetic blade.
It says the kinetic blast acts like a weapon. So, what kind of melee weapon is it? One-handed or light.
If you're making one (non-telekinetic) you choose the size of weapon. Nothing else of the weapon you're making (weapon properties, crit range or multiplier, or damage die) comes into play though.
I'm not seeing any text in the power saying that the telekineticist is limited to small or one-handed kinetic blades based on the size of their held item. Maybe it should have that limitation, but I don't see it.
Edit:
Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or another unusual object, the attack doesn’t use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects
Well let's reverse it: if they're only holding let's say a dagger, would you allow them to treat it as a one-handed weapon with telekinetic blade and potentially do two-handed power attack?
Telekinetics don't create anything out of aether unlike the other elements and that's why they'd still need unattended objects to use with their blasts. I would assume original weapon/object size held in hand would matter since they don't get the option of "[creating] a non-reach, light or one-handed weapon in your formed of pure energy or elemental matter...[instead a telekineticist] transfer the power of [his] kinetic blast to any object held in one hand."
Granted the whole thing goes out the window with Kinetic Whip (that one would need like an energy tendril coming out of the object held or something) so I might be wrong about blade.
Well let's reverse it: if they're only holding let's say a dagger, would you allow them to treat it as a one-handed weapon with telekinetic blade and potentially do two-handed power attack?
I would actually say this is intended to be a thing. It's very common in anime, reminding me of Kuwabara from Yuyu Hakusho.
Telekinetics don't create anything out of aether unlike the other elements and that's why they'd still need unattended objects to use with their blasts. I would assume original weapon/object size held in hand would matter since they don't get the option of "[creating] a non-reach, light or one-handed weapon in your formed of pure energy or elemental matter...[instead a telekineticist] transfer the power of [his] kinetic blast to any object held in one hand."Granted the whole thing goes out the window with Kinetic Whip so I might be wrong.
I was going to mention the whip, but you beat me to it. The intention seems to be there for the size of the held item to not matter at all.
Edit: There really should be some text on what the real limit is of telekinetic blasts needing items. I could easily say that my telekinetic blast is simply centered upon an air molecule, or less ridiculously a dust mote in the air. Unless I'm in a vacuum, I should always have an item to use.
I was going to mention the whip, but you beat me to it. The intention seems to be there for the size of the held item to not matter at all.
I'm hoping this is the case. There doesn't seem to be any way to abuse this to get more damage and I am a big "rule of cool" kind of guy.
Let's hope my GM sees it the same way.
Hmm yea I guess it wouldn't matter too much in long run. If someone's treating it one-handed they're choosing to use Strength to hit which isn't exactly the best choice for a kineticist most of the time. Finessing a telekinetic blade that one is using a greatsword for would be awesome and one can't two-hand it anyways due to finesse.
Hopefully Mark can clarify soon after GenCon.
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Ha. I was focusing on the text under Kinetic Blast class ability entry that said the following:
If you're never considered to be wielding it, then how would you apply Weapon Finesse?
I totally forgot about the light/one-handed classification mentioned in kinetic blade.
The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast...
That could be a specific trumps general issue. But kinetic blade doesn't ever explicitly say you wield the item, while it does imply it.
Edit: You kind of left out the most important part of that quote:
...(regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion on page 12)...
So, finesse is a definite no. 2-handed power attack is still a possibility though.
You kind of left out the most important part of that quote:
...(regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion on page 12)...
Why, I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. ;P
Well the blade forms in your hand, so I think regardless of whether it's wirkded or not, you're still holding it to melee attack with it and Weapon Finesse would apply if it's light weapon sized.
What about energy kinetic blasts formed as a gauntlet for a melee touch attack unarmed strike?
As long as you never refer to it as an unarmed attack (touch or otherwise). It's a kinetic blade shaped like a gauntlet? Finesse it but nothing affecting unarmed strikes or gauntlets factor into yor kinetic blade attack. Brawling armor? No. Avenger vigilante's Fist of the Avenger for unarmed/gauntlet damage? No. Weapon focus unarmed or gauntlet? No.
Ha. I was focusing on the text under Kinetic Blast class ability entry that said the following:
If you're never considered to be wielding it, then how would you apply Weapon Finesse?
I totally forgot about the light/one-handed classification mentioned in kinetic blade.
Weapon Finesse doesn't specify wielding any more than Kinetic Blade does. I see no reason why this wouldn't work, especially since several playtest builds (including my own) that Mark approved of used weapon finesse with kinetic blade.
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Heck Mark's own playtest kineticists used weapon finesse.
That line just goes on the garbage pile of "things that does not make any mechanical sense". How the hell can you not wield a Whip that last 1 round and lets you make AOO yet use it for the aforemented specifically called actions?
Any blanket statements like "regardless of effects from form infusions" should be checked 5 times before being discarded anyway.
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The wielding stuff I think came into being because of a discussion back in the playtest thread about using weapon versatility feat to use it on energy blades to do slashing/piercing/bludgeoning. Mark had to rule it then that blade/whips aren't wielded for stuff like Weapon Versatility (he sad Martial Versatility but I assume that's a mistake due to context).
Bonus: I found the post where Mark says two handed Power Attack is ok.
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So it's wielded in some cases, and is not wielded in other? How in all 666 infinite layer of the abyss is someone supposed to arbitrate with such contrieved and literally opposite rules? Coin flip?
I heard emotions are hard to read on paper so let me explicitly state that i'm quite pissed.
Can I declare that my kinetic whip is a light reach weapon, and thus benefits from Weapon Finesse, even if there might not be any actual light reach weapons in the game?*
If it has to take the shape of an actual existing weapon, and there aren't any light reach weapons in the game, then kinetic whip might lose a lot of appeal for a great many kineticists. Even if such a weapon does happen to exist, it might still lose some appeal if players are forced into using a certain descriptive flavor.*
A light reach weapon would be a small whip. The looks are just superficial so finesse should still work on it.
Can I declare that my kinetic whip is a light reach weapon, and thus benefits from Weapon Finesse, even if there might not be any actual light reach weapons in the game?*
If it has to take the shape of an actual existing weapon, and there aren't any light reach weapons in the game, then kinetic whip might lose a lot of appeal for a great many kineticists. Even if such a weapon does happen to exist, it might still lose some appeal if players are forced into using a certain descriptive flavor.*
You don't have to replicate the looks of any specific weapons. The rules of kinetic whip is that you make a one-handed or light weapon that has reach. How it's shaped is based on the kineticist's imagination. Really long straight sword? Sure. Flexible whip? Absolutely. Razor thin tendril of elemental matter? Ouch!
I hope you're right, Protoman.
For random interest reasons of wondering if there truly is a Paizo-official light reach weapon, I present...
I don't honestly see why this is a question.
Weapon Finesse:
With a light weapon...
Kinetic Blade:
You create a nonreach, light or one-handed weapon in your hand
Kinetic Whip:
This functions as kinetic blade but counts as a reach weapon appropriate for your size.
So yes, you can create a finesseable weapon with Kinetic Blade (since all light weapons work with weapon finesse) and you can create a finesseable reach weapon with Kinetic Whip (because it functions as kinetic blade, but adds reach.)
Just fluffwise, it should be intuitively clear that the weapon you create out of *LIGHTNING* probably does not require brute strength to wield.
Which question, PossibleCabbage?, If OP's question i agree, If question from Aug 1 i agree, if question from last post before yours i'm not sure i follow.