Happened to browse through this thread where Anzyr says that "Casters don't even roll dice at the highest level of play" and that "Saves don't matter against high level casters. Just immunities." From this I was wondering if we could compile a list of all the spells which this could apply to (or have a link, as my google-fu is weak). I believe this would be helpful when it comes to making gish builds such as this due to weaker casting stats and therefore save DC's, as well as a list for any caster to use when it comes to choosing spells. To start, I'll suggest obscuring mist, wind wall, and enlarge person.
There's always Limited Wish -> Geas.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Maze
Summon monster
off the top of my head.
(True Strike +) Ray of Exhaustion (twice). Lowish level but can be very effective. As a ranged touch attack, it's basically "don't roll a 1", with guaranteed fatigued on the first one (if they make the save) and then guaranteed exhausted on the second one (save doesn't matter at this point).
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
magispitt wrote: Happened to browse through this thread where Anzyr says that "Casters don't even roll dice at the highest level of play" and that "Saves don't matter against high level casters. Just immunities." From this I was wondering if we could compile a list of all the spells which this could apply to (or have a link, as my google-fu is weak). I believe this would be helpful when it comes to making gish builds such as this due to weaker casting stats and therefore save DC's, as well as a list for any caster to use when it comes to choosing spells. To start, I'll suggest obscuring mist, wind wall, and enlarge person. Anzyr tends to overstate. Having been playing a mythic wizard at 17th/8th level/tier recently, things such as saving throws, caster level checks vs. SR, or downright planar impedence are still a thing. Monsters saving against my spells are still a thing as well.
Walls, especially wall of stone. Most defensive spells; mirror image etc. and essentially all buffs.
Illusions may not allow disbelief saves immediately - very GM dependent.
Most (but not all) touch attack spells.
My personal favorite, for very high levels:
Mage's Magnificent Enclosure modified by a greater reach metamagic rod
No save, no SR, no caster level check, not even an attack roll. You just create a 10 ft. radius sphere of force with an antimagic field inside of it, centered on a point within close range. Against solo opponents, this gives you all of the buffing and miscellaneous preparation time you need to entirely eliminate them. Against groups, this incapacitates one or more opponents while the rest are destroyed. One of the most powerful spells in the game.
Doesn't work against Colossal creatures though, unless you build for it.
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Maximize is nice because it saves people the time of calculating 20+ dice.
Well you know, that and the damage.
Power Word Blind/Stun/Kill
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LazarX wrote: Anzyr tends to overstate. Having been playing a mythic wizard at 17th/8th level/tier recently, things such as saving throws, caster level checks vs. SR, or downright planar impedence are still a thing. Monsters saving against my spells are still a thing as well. All this shows is that you are rather bad at playing a mythic tier Wizard.
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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
andreww wrote: LazarX wrote: Anzyr tends to overstate. Having been playing a mythic wizard at 17th/8th level/tier recently, things such as saving throws, caster level checks vs. SR, or downright planar impedence are still a thing. Monsters saving against my spells are still a thing as well. All this shows is that you are rather bad at playing a mythic tier Wizard. Or I have a very good GM who shares my strict views in how magic is run, nor am I so determined to find every last way to steal the spotlight from my fellow players.
LazarX wrote: Or I have a very good GM who shares my strict views in how magic is run, nor am I so determined to find every last way to steal the spotlight from my fellow players. So you are intentionally holding back so as not to steal the show. That would be the whole martial/caster disparity right there.
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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
andreww wrote: LazarX wrote: Or I have a very good GM who shares my strict views in how magic is run, nor am I so determined to find every last way to steal the spotlight from my fellow players. So you are intentionally holding back so as not to steal the show. That would be the whole martial/caster disparity right there. It's called not being an ass. Believe it or not, non-casters can also be asshats as well. The Fighter who refuses to help a Rogue flank, or concentrating on the wrong target, the rogue who's more interested in picking pockets, the cleric who's determined to swing a mace rather than helping someone who's down... Gaming and adventuring are social activities. A team works when people and characters think in terms that are not limited to how they themselves can hog the glory or the rewards.
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LazarX wrote: It's called not being an ass. Believe it or not, non-casters can also be asshats as well. The Fighter who refuses to help a Rogue flank, or concentrating on the wrong target, the rogue who's more interested in picking pockets, the cleric who's determined to swing a mace rather than helping someone who's down... Gaming and adventuring are social activities. A team works when people and characters think in terms that are not limited to how they themselves can hog the glory or the rewards. I find teamwork to be a more effective concept when each member of the team has something useful to contribute to it which is not trivially outdone by other members. If my team has 3 skilled professionals and a rank amateur I am left wondering why we didn't bring a 4th professional when everything the amateur can do can easily be covered by one of the other 3.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
LazarX wrote: andreww wrote: LazarX wrote: Or I have a very good GM who shares my strict views in how magic is run, nor am I so determined to find every last way to steal the spotlight from my fellow players. So you are intentionally holding back so as not to steal the show. That would be the whole martial/caster disparity right there. It's called not being an ass. Believe it or not, non-casters can also be asshats as well. The Fighter who refuses to help a Rogue flank, or concentrating on the wrong target, the rogue who's more interested in picking pockets, the cleric who's determined to swing a mace rather than helping someone who's down... Gaming and adventuring are social activities. A team works when people and characters think in terms that are not limited to how they themselves can hog the glory or the rewards. so if there's two people who want to be a hammer, and one is drastically better than the other, what exactly are you supposed to do?
LazarX wrote: andreww wrote: LazarX wrote: Or I have a very good GM who shares my strict views in how magic is run, nor am I so determined to find every last way to steal the spotlight from my fellow players. So you are intentionally holding back so as not to steal the show. That would be the whole martial/caster disparity right there. It's called not being an ass. Believe it or not, non-casters can also be asshats as well. The Fighter who refuses to help a Rogue flank, or concentrating on the wrong target, the rogue who's more interested in picking pockets, the cleric who's determined to swing a mace rather than helping someone who's down... Gaming and adventuring are social activities. A team works when people and characters think in terms that are not limited to how they themselves can hog the glory or the rewards. I'm very offended by this statment. How is it that pulling your own weight and playing a good wizard is "being an ass"? You seem to think that playing a s*~!ty one is the only one way to not totally dominate the party.
And I can also say that your first statment is false. I'm playing a 8th level wizard and already by then only 3 of my spells allow SR and only a few more allows a save. Higher levels won't change this for me.
So tell me, how is it that I'm an ass when I: haste my allies, when I summon a chariot for us to travle in, when I create a cottage for us to sleep in, provide cover and concealment for my allies in combat and don't let the fall to their deaths? These are all things a party really needs. None of the spells needs to pass a save/SR and it doesn't leave the rest of the party outside the spotlight.
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Is all this on topic? I could have sworn this was about diceless spells... Go fight somewhere else please.
Scintillating Pattern.
Cheers, to the spirit of the OP.
Maze
Wall of Force
Wall of Stone used carefully
Euphoric Tranquillity
The Pit spells if all your are looking for is to create a blockage
Wall of Lava
Trap the Soul when used intelligently
Fickle Winds (hello archers)
Enervation, it requires a touch attack so combine with Quickened True Strike at higher levels
Black Tentacles, you are in difficult terrain even if you don't get grabbed
Power Word Stun/Blind/Kill
Simulacrums of horrific monsters (I used one this weekend as the GM in the Moonscar to create a copy of a nascent demon lord)
Of course the other reality is that casters who are using spells which allow saves are jacking those DC's up to nigh unbeatable levels, adding riders like dazed and/or forcing multiple saves with persistent spell.
You don't need to be a planar binding, undead army raising, simulacrum abusing monster to dominate as a full caster.
Lavawight wrote: Is all this on topic? I could have sworn this was about diceless spells... Go fight somewhere else please. Actually, all I just said is covered by dice-less spells. That's some spells of what a wizard can cast without dice and being an ass.
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