Can a kineticist use Supercharge on utility wild talents?

[Ravingdork]

Supercharge (Su): At 11th level, when using gather power as a move action, a kineticist can reduce the total burn cost of a single wild talent by 2 points instead of 1. When using gather power for 1 full round, she can reduce the burn cost of a single wild talent by 3 points instead of 2.

Contrast that to the Gather Power class ability, which is specifically limited to blast wild talents.

Was it the intention of the developers to not only increase the amount of burn reduction, but also to open it up to all other types of wild talents?

[Arachnofiend]

Supercharge isn't a new ability, it's an upgrade to Gather Power. All the normal restrictions apply.

[CalethosVB]

Doesn't Gather Power apply to only blast talents? So why would it work for utility talents here?

[Ravingdork]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Supercharge isn't a new ability, it's an upgrade to Gather Power. All the normal restrictions apply.

Can you show me where all the normal restrictions would continue to apply? I'm not seeing where that is expressly spelled out in Supercharge. (I suspect you're right, it's just not clearly written and could probably use some official clarification.)

Also, it is both a new ability and an upgrade. As written, how can we be certain the expansion of additional powers isn't part of the "upgrade?"

CalethosVB wrote:

Doesn't Gather Power apply to only blast talents? So why would it work for utility talents here?

Because utility powers aren't referenced. Instead, it continually references "wild talents", which is a much broader group of powers.

[Imbicatus]

It's in the rules text you quoted:

Quote:

Supercharge (Su): At 11th level, when using gather power as a move action, a kineticist can reduce the total burn cost of a single wild talent by 2 points instead of 1. When using gather power for 1 full round, she can reduce the burn cost of a single wild talent by 3 points instead of 2.

You are using gather power as a move action to use Supercharge. All the limitations on gather power apply, the only difference is you reduce the burn cost by a greater amount.

[Ravingdork]

Imbicatus wrote:

It's in the rules text you quoted:

Quote:

Supercharge (Su): At 11th level, when using gather power as a move action, a kineticist can reduce the total burn cost of a single wild talent by 2 points instead of 1. When using gather power for 1 full round, she can reduce the burn cost of a single wild talent by 3 points instead of 2.

You are using gather power as a move action to use Supercharge. All the limitations on gather power apply, the only difference is you reduce the burn cost by a greater amount.

I'm still not fully convinced. Your highlight there doesn't change the fact that it is saying "wild talent" rather than "blast wild talent." In every other part of the class' rules, they use the full talent names (rather than simply saying "form infusion" they say "form infusion wild talent"). It's very clear that they were being careful with the wording.

Quote:

Supercharge (Su): At 11th level, when using gather power as a move action, a kineticist can reduce the total burn cost of a single wild talent by 2 points instead of 1. When using gather power for 1 full round, she can reduce the burn cost of a single wild talent by 3 points instead of 2.

Why abandon that format here if not to also expand the types of wild talents Gather Power worked with?

[CalethosVB]

They probably cut the word "Blast" from the text on Supercharge so they could cram another couple words in somewhere else.

Related

[Mark Seifter]

Removed posts with quotes from Occult Adventures; we're almost at the finish line guys, and I know you're excited. Just two more days! However, I have the answer to this question, so I'll answer it anyway:

Arachnofiend and Calathos are correct. Only blast wild talents.

Consider the following two abilities that I just made up for a good parallel:

Not Real Abilities wrote:

Melee Focus: A meleer fighter gains Weapon Focus in all melee weapons, gaining a +1 bonus on attack rolls with those weapons.

Improved Melee Focus: A meleer fighter's Melee Focus ability grants a +2 bonus on weapon attack rolls instead of a +1.

Note how the second ability doesn't say melee weapon, but it still only applies to melee weapons. Supercharge is still using gather power. All restrictions to gather power apply.

[Ravingdork]

Thanks for the clarification, Mark. :D

When the time is more appropriate, is it possible you could restore those posts, so people can reference them later if need be?

[Mark Seifter]

Ravingdork wrote:

Thanks for the clarification, Mark. :D

When the time is more appropriate, is it possible you could restore those posts, so people can reference them later if need be?

What I was doing the last few times this happened (so far there have been three good questions, like yours, that quoted OA because they were based on a very close read, but I was also able to answer) was paraphrasing the OP, but some of the previous responses did a good job of it already this time. That said, I'm certainly not opposed to unremoving after the book's release. Bump the thread again after Gencon (it's OK to quote in two days, but I won't be there to see it until after Gencon) to remind me, and I'll see what I can do!

[Ravingdork]

I have a hard copy in my hands now, that Paizo sent me in the mail. What do you mean "after it's release?" Is it not released yet? (I wouldn't have quoted anything if I didn't think thousands of other people were getting their hands on it as well.)

[Arachnofiend]

It isn't available to non-subscribers until Wednesday.

[Mark Seifter]

Ravingdork wrote:

I have a hard copy in my hands now, that Paizo sent me. What do you mean "after it's release?" Is it not released yet?

As a subscriber, one of your perks is that you get the PDF early and occasionally get the book early too :) As with Unchained (where it happened more frequently to be honest), we ask that you don't post quotes from the book until the official date that everyone else can get it (2 days from now, the 29th).

[Salanthus]

Actually the way it's worded supercharge works on a single wild talent meaning blast, infusion, or utility wild talents. Because gather power specifically says blast wild talent then supercharge changes it to single wild talent instead of blast wild talent. It's not a miss type is an expansion of the power. Changing the way gather power works from blast wild talent to now single wild talent.

Because gather power does not say "single blast wild talent" it just says "blast wild talent" then supercharge changes it to "single wild talent" if it was just for blasts they would have put "blast wild talent".

And also why just blasts in the first place? Why can't you use it to reduce any burn and metakinisis says you have to take the burn it does not say it adds to the blasts burn like it says in infusions.

[Ellias Aubec]

FIrst, this is several years after... Second, the author of the class himself says it does not work that way in this thread itself.

[Salanthus]

Was that the author I couldn't find a specific author listed. But if that was the case that it was the same ability why have 2 separate entries? Why was it not included in the description of the gather power ability and just said at level 11 the burn reduction increases to 2 for a move action and 3 for a full round. Basicly like how it says what happens at higher levels for the elemental overflow ability. Its also listed as a separate ability and specifically says a single wild talent instead of a blast wild talent.

[PossibleCabbage]

Mark Seifter wrote the Kineticist class.

So far, there is no way for any kineticist of any level to reduce the burn cost of utility wild talents, which is fine since most of them are free anyway.

[Zarius]

Supercharge (Su): At 11th level, when using gather power as a move action, a kineticist can reduce the total burn cost of a single wild talent by 2 points instead of 1. When using gather power for 1 full round, she can reduce the burn cost of a single wild talent by 3 points instead of 2.

OK, SO. Supercharge only affects Gather Power. What ever limitations apply to Gather Power normally apply to Gather Power when affected by Supercharge, because it's still Gather Power. You don't need to be convinced, it's simply how the ability works and is worded. Suck it up, buttercup.

[Black Onyx Salesman]

Nearly three years worth of sales? How wonderfully lucrative!