Star Wars: The Force Awakens

[baron arem heshvaun]

April 5 target date for The Force Awakens on blu-rey

[Irontruth]

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Lord Snow wrote:

thumbs up

Hmmm.

That's saying a lot about what I thought was a poignant scene.

The Alliance Rebels have always used hand signals.

How do you feel about Han's The Empire Strikes Back line "Then I'll see you in hell?" Or Han shrugging at the Imperial Biker Scout the bunker on Endor?

I've probably purchased that book like 5 times over the years. Several for myself and copies for others. When I had to start rebuilding my SW:RPG collection, it was the second book I tracked down.

[baron arem heshvaun]

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Deleted scenes from The Force Awakens

I would have definitely kept two of those scenes even if they had to be edited.

[Freehold DM]

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Deleted scenes from The Force Awakens

Some rather informative.

I TOLD you there were missing scenes! Damn. We needed those scenes. Badly.

JJ. You let me down there.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Just watched it.

It was good.

Hope we get more Captain Phasma in the sequel (maybe all compacted like a Minecraft skin? Prob'by not).

Rey and Fin are great.

My theory: Snoke is a Force Ghost.

[Kryzbyn]

Why would a force ghost need to use a hologram?

[Kobold Catgirl]

1. Maybe it's not a hologram at all. Force ghosts can look pretty hologrammy.
2. Maybe it's just pretending to be a hologram because it doesn't want anyone to know it's dead.

[MMCJawa]

Krensky wrote:

Lord Snow wrote:

OK... enough time has passed since me watching the movie that I am now able to gather my thoughts of it into something cohesive.

** spoiler omitted **...

Yes, you are.

Hating things because other people like them does not make you cool.

Except he says he doesn't hate it, he seems to have actually been okay with/enjoyed the movie. He is just pointing out a problem he had.

[Kobold Catgirl]

INTOLERABLE

[baron arem heshvaun]

Freehold DM wrote:

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Deleted scenes from The Force Awakens

Some rather informative.

I TOLD you there were missing scenes! Damn. We needed those scenes. Badly.

I agreed, two of the scenes from the trailer didn't even make it into the movie.

[baron arem heshvaun]

Fun fact. The release date of Guardians of the Galaxy 2 was moved up three weeks as not to be released the same weekend as Episode VII.

The Empire of the Mouse will dominate May 2017.

In my minds eye I see Disney, Star Wars, and Marvel executives sitting on golden thrones in an immense darkened war room that SPECTRE would be envious of.

[Kirth Gersen]

OK, so I wasn't going to see this one, but my father-in-law is a foaming-at-the-mouth Harrison Ford fan, and then I realized I had seen every one of the other six in the theater at the time of their release, and it would be like a rejection of my childhood to sit this one out. So I went.

Spoiler:

I saw a movie where there's a bad guy in a dark mask. The good guys find the droid carrying a secret map and successfully escape from a desert planet on board the Millenium Falcon, which gets caught in a tractor beam, and the guys try to rescue a girl who ends up rescuing them, and then they help the rebel fleet destroy the super-weapon that destroys entire planets. And there's a cantina and a wookie and Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher and Mark Hammill.

Wait... that was Episode IV, in 1977. Sorry, I guess I don't have a new review for this one, except that the costume designer, Edna Mode, from The Incredibles now runs the cantina.

Regarding previous Mary-Sue-Is-Not-Is-Too! discussion: I thought it was bad form to put all the eggs in one basket, so to speak, and make all the other young protagonists ultimately irrelevant to the story. In E4, of the young protagonists, only Luke was strong with the Force, only Han could fly the Falcon and be friends with Chewie, only C3PO could talk to R2D2, only Chewbacca was good in melee without a lightsaber, and so on.

Spoiler:

Rey can do all of that by herself. Finn is just a janitor. He can be left out of E8-9 and no one would miss him. That said, I still cheered out loud when Rey read Edward Scissorhands Emo McAngsty Kylo Ren's mind, and when she Jedi mind-tricked her way out of the cell, and when she force-stole the lightsaber from Ren. I loved her obvious awesomeness, and I loved the actress. I just really, really, really wish they would have given Finn some stuff to do that she couldn't.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Some of those scenes were definitely better off not in the movie, in fairness. Like Maz Katana following them to the rebel base and then...standing around.

I really liked the deliberate parallels they ran with A New Hope. They took the same framework and made a totally different movie out of it.

As for the "Mary Sue" discussion: Rey is barely the main character in her own movie, sharing spotlight and character development time with Han, Finn, Leia, Kylo Ren, and even arguably that Poe guy. Yeah, looking back, Finn could've used some more stuff to do, but that doesn't make Rey particularly Sueish. It's a problem with Finn, not her.

Rey being good at things doesn't make her a Mary Sue. The plot doesn't revolve around her, and she has very good reason to be good at things (she's a salvager who grew up with severe disadvantages).

You don't see this sort of backlash directed at characters like Harry Potter or Aragorn.

Guy On Twitter wrote:

I understand the argument that Rey's plotline made things too easy for her. I get that. It's a fair point.

...
Another point about Rey being a Mary Sue: She actually accomplishes very little in the movie.

Luke saves the day. Anakin saves the day. Neo saves the day. Harry Potter saves the day repeatedly, as does Wesley Crusher. Rey?

She does have some key moments, yes, but no more so than any of the other main characters.

So: I see where criticisms of Rey come from, but they detract from the movie nil and are so nitpicky that I cannot give them much weight.

RT off Some Other Guy: That's what gets me. Rey does a third of what the average movie hero does and gets a million times criticized for it.

That pretty much sums up my opinions. But if I might be permitted to add something...

[Kirth Gersen]

My only issue with Rey is that she obviates the need for all of the rest of the characters. That has nothing to do with her gender; it's more an Angel Summoner/BMX Bandit thing.

Episode 9 Synopsis: Rey: "I'll repair the droid and the ship, then fly us there, and tell Chewie to fight them, and then use the Force to defeat them!"
Finn: "OK! I'll wash the windshield!"

Remember the old Mission: Impossible show, where Steven Hill is the mastermind, and Barbara Bain is an actress who can gain anyone's confidence, and Greg Morris is an electronics expert, and Martin Landau is a thief, and Peter Lupus is the strong man? If Peter Graves could suddenly fill all of those roles himself, it would have ruined the show.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I can understand that. Rey isn't a Mary Sue, but Finn could use some more stuff to do in the next one. He's a fish out of water, so I can understand him struggling for a while, but he seems to be stuck in the character talent ghetto of "the idea guy", which is the talent we give a bland hero we can't think of another talent for. Finn should get more than that.

That said, Luke annoyed the hell out of me. I'm very glad Rey is nothing like Luke. The movie is not worse off for having a main character more competent than Luke.

[Kirth Gersen]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Finn should get more than that.

Yeah, having to say "the black man is a janitor... oh, yeah, and he's a reformed bad guy, too!" really bugs me.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Well, he's a soldier. He's just a soldier who, when not fighting, was assigned to janitor duty instead of shield maintenance duty. Not that I wholly disagree. Making him understand the shield mechanisms would have at least given him a useful talent.

EDIT: He was never a bad guy, though. His first battle, he realized this wasn't for him. He never killed a single "good guy".

[baron arem heshvaun]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Yeah, having to sum up his entire skill set as "the black man is a janitor... oh, yeah, and he's a reformed bad guy, too!"

"Custodial engineer"

[Kirth Gersen]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

He was never a bad guy, though. His first battle, he realized this wasn't for him. He never killed a single "good guy".

Yeah, but he's a young black man. Abrams just had to have him belong to a street gang evil intergalactic army before he goes straight, so he can have "street cred."

[Bill Dunn]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Spoiler:

Well, he's a soldier. He's just a soldier who, when not fighting, was assigned to janitor duty instead of shield maintenance duty. Not that I wholly disagree. Making him understand the shield mechanisms would have at least given him a useful talent.

EDIT: He was never a bad guy, though. His first battle, he realized this wasn't for him. He never killed a single "good guy".

Spoiler:

Even the janitor knows his way around the base - that's something nobody else in the movie has - he has substantial intel about the First Order. Also, Rey may have been capable enough to get out of her immediate restraints and skulk around - but it's Finn who is the driving force behind rescuing her. He's plot mover even if he's less of a problem resolver than Rey.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Like I said—"idea guy".

Kirth, I don't think a street gang is at all analogous to an "evil intergalactic army". One is anti-establishment, while the other is basically another Empire—a tyrannical regime.

There might be a race factor in Finn being less competent, or in him being a "janitor", but I don't think his redemption arc has anything to do with race. I think that's just a factor making him more interesting.

[Kirth Gersen]

Bill,

Spoiler:

Knowledge of the base is kind irrelevant as of the end of the movie, wouldn't you say? Finn's shelf life was 1 movie, and now he's obsolete. Going into Episode 8, Rey could hook up with the Son of Jar-Jar and be just as well off as meeting up with Finn again begin again!.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Wait, how does being part of a cloistered order where he doesn't even learn Binary give Finn "street cred"? :P

[Kirth Gersen]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Kirth, I don't think a street gang is at all analogous to an "evil intergalactic army". One is anti-establishment, while the other is basically another Empire—a tyrannical regime.

There might be a race factor in Finn being less competent, or in him being a "janitor", but I don't think his redemption arc has anything to do with race. I think that's just a factor making him more interesting.

I can sort of go with that. It sort of bugs me when young black men are always (a) incompetent sidekicks, and (b) always seem to have a criminal background (and, Nazi call-outs aside, a rogue organization that shoots down locals isn't really law-abiding). Subverting one or the other of those tropes would be enough for me, but to keep them both is too much for me to easily stomach.

Spoiler:

If Finn was going to be an ex-Stormtrooper, why not make him one of their computer experts? Or their most promising pilot? Or, if he's going to be incompetent, why not make him some Grand Moff's over-educated and under-experienced son, who got in as a legacy but now wants to make something of himself on his own terms? Why make him an incompetent ex-criminal, except to perpetuate two stereotypes for the price of one?

[pres man]

Spoiler:

Finn is the stand in for the audience, especially the members of the audience that may not have the rest of the background coming in. That is why it is okay for him to be a bit bumbling through most of the film. That is how the character arc works for that kind of character. The only real issue I have with how it was done in the movie was he seemed to have way to much history information for a brain-washed grunt soldier.
"Han Solo, the rebellion general?" "Wasn't he a rebellion leader?" "You knew Luke Skywalker of the Resistance. You can help us."
There is absolutely no reason why a soldier in his position would ever know that information in the First Order. Outside of a general order to find Luke, I seriously doubt in the old empire most run of the mill officers and soldiers cared about him at all. One ace pilot is not what wins wars and other than making that one in the million shot, he actually didn't appear to have that much influence on what was happening with the Rebellion.

[Kirth Gersen]

pres man wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

The over-educated, under-experienced Grand Moff's Kid scenario I outlined above solves both of those problems rather nicely. He'd still be an inexperienced audience-guide, but would plausibly have all kinds of juicy info on the FO, enough to justify his inclusion in two more films. And we'd cheer for him to want to be someone on his own terms. It would have been a win-win for me.

[BigDTBone]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Finn should get more than that.

Yeah, having to say "the black man is a janitor... oh, yeah, and he's a reformed bad guy, too!" really bugs me.

Spoiler:

The ONLY reason Finn was a janitor was so Han could get the jab about, "are there garbage chutes? Or compactor rooms?" WINK WINK Which is really one of the big problems I have with all the meta-humor, it happens at the expense of the rest of the movie.

[Kirth Gersen]

So, it's OK to accuse people of sexism for suspecting that Rey has a touch of Mary Sue, but not OK to accuse Abrams of racism for making the one token black guy an incompetent ex-criminal? Just checking.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Finn really isn't framed as an ex-criminal*, so I still do not think that claim holds any water. Otherwise, I agree. In that I think both should be okay.

*Basically, yes, he's technically a "criminal", but he does not meet any stereotypes of "black criminal". The First Order may be a "criminal organization", but it's big enough to have treaties with actual governments. It's not even a mere organized crime syndicate. It's basically a terrorist organization, or a nomadic militant force like the Huns. The Stormtroopers are organized and indicated to be vestiges of the actual Empire. They aren't criminals for any practical or thematic purposes.

BigDTBone wrote:

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Finn should get more than that.

Yeah, having to say "the black man is a janitor... oh, yeah, and he's a reformed bad guy, too!" really bugs me.

** spoiler omitted **

Why are We Using Spoilers?:

That was less "meta-humor" and more "callback to something Solo himself has experienced". It's an inside joke Han is making with himself and Chewie. And frankly, Han could have asked the question of a normal non-janitor, too. "We own a trash compactor" isn't privileged enough information to make Han asking a former denizen of the base about it implausible, especially not for a joke.

In other words, I doubt there's a connection. They made him a janitor to underscore his reckless heroism, and possibly to make him a bit doofier (see re: Kirth's whole main beef).

[Evan Tarlton]

My two cents: John Boyega did stellar work as Finn, who was a well done character who was also somewhat problematic. He was ultimately a decoy protagonist for Rey, which is not something you want for the first black Star Wars lead (for the record, I consider the leads to be the power trio of each trilogy, so: Luke, Leia, Han; Padme, Obi-Wan, Anakin; Finn, Rey, Poe).

Does that mean I think

Spoiler:

Finn should have taken Rey's place entirely?

No.

As good as that last fight sequence was, I think it would have been even better if

Spoiler:

Finn was definitively revealed to be strong in the Force (I think that he is based on what we are given, but confirmation is always helpful), and he and Rey had taken on Kylo together. It would have given Finn's arc a better resolution, could have been done without diminishing Rey in the least, and made Kylo a bigger threat (which he greatly needed to be).

[Kobold Catgirl]

I think the idea of Kylo was that he, like the protagonists, is "still learning". We'll see if he's any better in VIII.

[thejeff]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I think the idea of Kylo was that he, like the protagonists, is "still learning". We'll see if he's any better in VIII.

Yeah, that's actually what I liked about Kylo. And a major difference between this and A New Hope, for those complaining it's just a remake.

[BigNorseWolf]

I would have killed for:

A phasma chewbacca beat down. Even losing to a wookie would go a long way towards showing the badassery they're trying to project, and it wouldn't change the plot at all

[baron arem heshvaun]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I would have killed for

There is a deleted scene where Unkar Plutt follows Rey for stealing the Falcon and manhandles Rey in a fight, and challenges a one armed battle damaged Chewbacca.

Chewie still easily wins the encounter ripping Unkar Plutt's arm off his socket like a rag doll.

Ironically because this scene was cut, The Force Awakens is the first Episode where an appendage is not cut off.

Surprisingly still, cutting off an appendage off an alien is still acceptable in a PG-13 movie.

Phasma now has Boba Fett syndrome. Look like bada$$ and do nothing bada$$ at all. In fact she may have overtaken him in that role.

[Grey Lensman]

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Phasma now has Boba Fett syndrome. Look like bada$$ and do nothing bada$$ at all. In fact she may have overtaken him in that role.

At least she doesn't have the ignominy of being introduced in the Holiday Special.

[BigNorseWolf]

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Phasma now has Boba Fett syndrome. Look like bada$$ and do nothing bada$$ at all. In fact she may have overtaken him in that role.

I don't think its working

spoilerific reasoning here

Nothing you haven't seen in previews unless you live under a rock version

[baron arem heshvaun]

Grey Lensman wrote:

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Phasma now has Boba Fett syndrome. Look like bada$$ and do nothing bada$$ at all. In fact she may have overtaken him in that role.

At least she doesn't have the ignominy of being introduced in the Holiday Special.

Your saying that The Force Awakens is not Di$$ney's version of a Holiday Special.

:)

Disney shareholder beg to differ.

[baron arem heshvaun]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

spoilerific reasoning here

I'll read the article later when I am not rushing off to work, but I do love Boba Fett and I was making a tongue in check remark, for example I always expound that Boba was the one who figured out Han Solo was tricking the Imperial Fleet and followed the Falcon to Bespin, heard Luke as he was trailing him on Cloud City, and the only one (besides Jabba) who kept his wits about him in the thermal detonator scene.

He is fine in my book.

Phasma though seems so under utilized currently.

I also am not a fan of her rank, she could have been called Praetor or Commandant, she seems to high a rank too be a captain and opens up a box of mynocks on why for such a large Armed Forces, why is there only one Captain in the ranks.

I am guessing the armor is honorific. She did something bada$$ to earn it.

[baron arem heshvaun]

MeanDM wrote:

Laurefindel wrote:

I'm really digging the new FFG's Star Wars RPG series (Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion and Force and Destiny)

Does that use a unique system, or D20 rules?

For Laurefindel, MeanDM, and the rest, a lot of Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, and Force and Destiny profession decks are on clearance right now.

Type in promo code MMGIFT for an additional 10 % off.

While I myself have all the core books, I have not picked up the decks myself.

[baron arem heshvaun]

I was telling the news reporters at the premier that I would have love to see Phasma take down an X Wing from the ground with some heavy blaster riffle, not a rocket launcher or surface to air missile, but a heavy version of Stromtrooper blaster, that would show how bada$$ she was.

[baron arem heshvaun]

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

I was telling the news reporters at the premier that I would have love to see Phasma take down an X Wing from the ground with some heavy blaster riffle, not a rocket launcher or surface to air missile, but a heavy version of Stromtrooper blaster, that would show how bada$$ she was.

Don't get me started on Kylo Ren.

[Doodlebug Anklebiter]

Krensky wrote:

Hating things because other people like them does not make you cool.

Saw it on Christmas with my family, Mr. Comrade and La Principessa.

My family loved it, La Principessa liked it, Mr. Comrade and I didn't. Wouldn't say I hated it, but I got bored pretty quick and wondered why they couldn't come up with a plot that wasn't just a reboot of Episodes IV and VI.

[Imbicatus]

The one thing I didn't like about Kylo Ren was the complete lack of Dark Side corruption. He didn't have to be withered like Palpatine, but even pre-suit Anakin had the yellow eyes going on.

Kylo Ren was powerful enough to do thing we have never seen with the force, but wasn't getting any of the common negative effects from the dark side.

[baron arem heshvaun]

I'ndianall jonesust leave this here.

[Freehold DM]

Krensky wrote:

Kirth Gersen wrote:

So, it's OK to accuse people of sexism for suspecting that Rey has a touch of Mary Sue, but not OK to accuse Abrams of racism for making the one token black guy an incompetent ex-criminal? Just checking.

Yeah, yeah...

What's a Nubian, the white man keeping the black man down in a galaxy far, far away, black folks just want to be white, Jughead and Archie are gay.

You've gone full Hooper X on us Kirth.

normally I'd disagree, but...yeah. Finn did a hell of a lot more in his first appearance than Lando ever did in his. Here's hoping he only does more.

[Freehold DM]

Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

Krensky wrote:

Hating things because other people like them does not make you cool.

Saw it on Christmas with my family, Mr. Comrade and La Principessa.

My family loved it, La Principessa liked it, Mr. Comrade and I didn't. Wouldn't say I hated it, but I got bored pretty quick and wondered why they couldn't come up with a plot that wasn't just a reboot of Episodes IV and VI.

bad Anklebiter!

[Bill Dunn]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Finn really isn't framed as an ex-criminal*, so I still do not think that claim holds any water. Otherwise, I agree. In that I think both should be okay.

*Basically, yes, he's technically a "criminal", but he does not meet any stereotypes of "black criminal". The First Order may be a "criminal organization", but it's big enough to have treaties with actual governments. It's not even a mere organized crime syndicate. It's basically a terrorist organization, or a nomadic militant force like the Huns. The Stormtroopers are organized and indicated to be vestiges of the actual Empire. They aren't criminals for any practical or thematic purposes.

BigDTBone wrote:

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Finn should get more than that.

Yeah, having to say "the black man is a janitor... oh, yeah, and he's a reformed bad guy, too!" really bugs me.

I'm seeing a different take on Finn. Keep in mind he's been under conditioning, taken from a family he never knew. He's not a member of a criminal organization who's now reforming - he's a slave who has broken his chains.

[Hama]

I think that they are saving Phasma for episodes VIII and IX