Star Wars: The Force Awakens


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spoiler:
I said to JJ, wouldn't it be funny if the Big new Death Star was a symbol of Star Wars cannon?
Spoiler:
Explosive Runes


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:


How about the fact that there is no story reason to keep her alive beyond this point? Padme finishes her story purpose by giving birth to twins. By canon, both Luke and Leia were raised as orphans and there's no Padme appearing at the end of Episode VI.

Unfortunately, that's a George Lucas writing fail right there. In Episode 6, Luke asks Leia what she remembers about her mother - clearly fishing for information about his own mother. Padme was supposed to survive at least a while so that Leia could remember an impression of her as very sad before Leia is raised as an orphan. Padme dying in childbirth wouldn't do that, nor would the scene have any poignancy if Leia is reminiscing about her adoptive mother, one she wouldn't share with Luke.

Scarab Sages

Bill Dunn wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:


How about the fact that there is no story reason to keep her alive beyond this point? Padme finishes her story purpose by giving birth to twins. By canon, both Luke and Leia were raised as orphans and there's no Padme appearing at the end of Episode VI.
Unfortunately, that's a George Lucas writing fail right there. In Episode 6, Luke asks Leia what she remembers about her mother - clearly fishing for information about his own mother. Padme was supposed to survive at least a while so that Leia could remember an impression of her as very sad before Leia is raised as an orphan. Padme dying in childbirth wouldn't do that, nor would the scene have any poignancy if Leia is reminiscing about her adoptive mother, one she wouldn't share with Luke.

The moment Leia remembers happened at the end of Episode 6. Just because it happened at birth doesn't mean it didn't happen. After they were born, Padme says "Luke... Leia..." and touches baby Leia. That's what she remembers.


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Imbicatus wrote:


The moment Leia remembers happened at the end of Episode 6. Just because it happened at birth doesn't mean it didn't happen. After they were born, Padme says "Luke... Leia..." and touches baby Leia. That's what she remembers.

That's baloney. Babies don't remember that sort of thing and being force-sensitive shouldn't justify the writing failure.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:


The moment Leia remembers happened at the end of Episode 6. Just because it happened at birth doesn't mean it didn't happen. After they were born, Padme says "Luke... Leia..." and touches baby Leia. That's what she remembers.
That's baloney. Babies don't remember that sort of thing and being force-sensitive shouldn't justify the writing failure.

wow. That's harsh.


Maybe they are Scientologists? Silent Birth


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Freehold DM wrote:
wow. That's harsh.

Maybe, but while making the prequels, Lucas eschewed a lot of the things that helped him make decent stories in the original trilogy - oversight, delegation, and collaboration. Lucas is a good producer for making thing happen, for fostering movies, for fostering movie-making technology - but he needs to work with people who can say "No" to him or correct him. So I make no excuses for the problems the prequels introduced to the series. They deserve most of the criticism they get.

Scarab Sages

Realistic or not, Infant memories are a common trope.


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Imbicatus wrote:
Realistic or not, Infant memories are a common trope.

True, but even that trope doesn't usually deal with memories from birth or minutes after.

And in this case, the initial presentation of the memories clearly implied Leia's mother living long enough to have some interaction with at least an infant Leia.

Even if he's technically not contradicting the earlier scene, he's effectively doing so.

Now, if he'd been intending some force-memory or other birth memory weirdness along, he could have had her say something like: "I've always been told she died when I was born, but I remember ..."


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...or she assumed he meant the only mother she's ever known.


Kryzbyn wrote:
...or she assumed he meant the only mother she's ever known.

But as Bill Dunn said "nor would the scene have any poignancy if Leia is reminiscing about her adoptive mother, one she wouldn't share with Luke."

Also, did her adoptive mother die while she was young too? Cause otherwise you'd think she'd have more than an impression of sadness.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
pres man wrote:
Well Mace was tossed out of a window. It isn't like that would have to kill a Jedi, even given just losing a hand. I mean, Anakin was jumping from air-car to air-car one movie earlier. It is believable that he went into hiding in the underworld of Coruscant. What if he became a totally type Jolee Bindo character. I could see Mace as being a "grey" Jedi.
I am 100% on board with, "if you don't see their dead body, then they aren't dead," rule. This also counts Padme because of her pervasive use of body doubles.
Bearing children and dying in childbirth is beyond the ability of a body double. And she was no longer of a station or position to have access to any at that point.
Bearing children yes. But we didn't see her die. Also, she already had a dead body double from the beginning of AotC.
How about the fact that there is no story reason to keep her alive beyond this point? Padme finishes her story purpose by giving birth to twins. By canon, both Luke and Leia were raised as orphans and there's no Padme appearing at the end of Episode VI.

(1) You're moving goal posts

(2) doesn't matter, it's my rule
(3) Neiner neiner


Could be. Either is probable.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:


How about the fact that there is no story reason to keep her alive beyond this point? Padme finishes her story purpose by giving birth to twins. By canon, both Luke and Leia were raised as orphans and there's no Padme appearing at the end of Episode VI.
Unfortunately, that's a George Lucas writing fail right there. In Episode 6, Luke asks Leia what she remembers about her mother - clearly fishing for information about his own mother. Padme was supposed to survive at least a while so that Leia could remember an impression of her as very sad before Leia is raised as an orphan. Padme dying in childbirth wouldn't do that, nor would the scene have any poignancy if Leia is reminiscing about her adoptive mother, one she wouldn't share with Luke.

It's also a pretty big fail that the lead female character (despite being a queen and senator!!) has no real plot purpose beyond being a love interest and having a uterus.

Dark Archive

spoiler:
Force chokes Oedipus. Atleast we won't have to travel down this road. I hope.
Spoiler:
Kylo Ren

Liberty's Edge

Well, according to Wookipedia's citations, the canon explanation (per the newest novelization of Jedi) is that those are Leia's impressions of her mother, and she's not sure if they're genuine memories or fabrications to fill the hole where here mother should be.

Granted, that's an ex post facto explanation to reconcile Episode III and VI by the author of the adaptation, but it's decent as such thing go.

Sovereign Court

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WAIT WAIT WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT MAYBE

Leia remembers Bail Organa's wife? Nobody thought of that? Jesus.

Liberty's Edge

SPOILER Kylo Ren wrote:
** spoiler omitted **[/spoiler]

movie spoiler lol

Spoiler:
In the tradition of the sith, I name you........DARTH NEPHEW.......

Scarab Sages

Heathansson wrote:
SPOILER Kylo Ren wrote:
** spoiler omitted **[/spoiler]

movie spoiler lol

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
That would be Darth Neffe. Or maybe Darth Enkel...
Liberty's Edge

Imbicatus wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
SPOILER Kylo Ren wrote:
** spoiler omitted **[/spoiler]

movie spoiler lol

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Spoiler:
Darth Whinger lol
Liberty's Edge

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Heathansson wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
SPOILER Kylo Ren wrote:
** spoiler omitted **[/spoiler]

movie spoiler lol

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Spoiler:
the first Sith lord with his own The Cure cover band
Scarab Sages

Heathansson wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
SPOILER Kylo Ren wrote:
** spoiler omitted **[/spoiler]

movie spoiler lol

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Spoiler:
I'd say Skrillex with that hair...

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Hama wrote:

WAIT WAIT WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT MAYBE

Leia remembers Bail Organa's wife? Nobody thought of that? Jesus.

Of course we did, and dispensed with it as draining all the poignancy of Luke fishing for info on his own mother from his unknowing sister.


Hama wrote:

WAIT WAIT WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT MAYBE

Leia remembers Bail Organa's wife? Nobody thought of that? Jesus.

that's not true....that's impossible!


Freehold DM wrote:
Hama wrote:

WAIT WAIT WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT MAYBE

Leia remembers Bail Organa's wife? Nobody thought of that? Jesus.

that's not true....that's impossible!

Search your post history, you know it to be true.

Sovereign Court

I mean guys...Occam's razor...


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Occam's razor has nothing to do with it. It's about forgetting where a story has gone and screwing up its backstory. How does the scene in Episode 6 work when Luke asks about Leia's mother and she relates her impressions of a woman with absolutely no relevance to Luke whatsoever? The scene doesn't work anymore. He's about to go confront their father and he wants to know about their mother, not some senator's wife.

That's the problem with Padme dying in childbirth. That's why she has a purpose beyond the closing credits of Episode 3. It isn't really a question of figuring how who Leia remembers and how. It's a question of why Lucas's choice for Padme's death in Episode 3 was problematic.


thejeff wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
I refuse to acknowledge EP 1-3 as canon.

Ah, the Adam Savage gambit.

Let us know how that works for you.

It works great. Acknowledging them as canon would make my head hurt, because it would mean I have to pay attention to those awful, awful movies. The other day someone mentioned pod racing and I had actually forgotten that it was even in one of the movies. They were talking about a character involved with it, I still have no recollection of who they're talking about. Which is great, because they were talking about how awful the character was. I have successfully repressed it.

I haven't seen EP 3. I refuse to see it, regardless of how many times people tell me "it was the best of the three".

You can acknowledge them as canon without paying attention to them. You can enjoy the old Expanded Universe stuff without thinking it's canon.

You just can't expect the new works to stick to the now non-canon works or ignore the canon ones.

As evidenced by the discussion of Leia's memory of Padme, I'm clearly better off just ignoring the prequel trilogy. I can't think of a single thing in The Force Awakens that was a reference to anything I remember from EP 1-3. Even if there is a reference, it's irrelevant, because the movie was fine without knowing the reference.

There's so little in EP 1-3 that's useful or interesting canon. If only those three movies had ever been made, I would not be interested in playing an RPG in that setting.


Ahh...the point could be moot...
The line from the script reads:

RotJ Script wrote:
Leia... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?

So he did specifically ask her about her birth mother.

Liberty's Edge

Which brings us back to Tom Angleberger's attempt to make it work.

Which wouldn't have been necessary if Lucas bothered to rewatching Jedi or reread the script before he launched into his attempt to work out his Mommy/Wife issues on the big screen.

The Exchange

OK... enough time has passed since me watching the movie that I am now able to gather my thoughts of it into something cohesive.

Star Wars: The Force Awakens thoughts:

I feel very secluded in my opinion of this movie. It is mostly based on something that I feel should be obvious to everyone (moreover so in these forums than elsewhere) and yet seems to get completely overlooked.

To me, The Force Awakens was an above average sci-fi action film. A plot that's easy on the brain, solid characters, good dialog, some very funny scenes, great action and stunning visuals. A very accomplished movie. I had a great time watching it.

I also went out of the movie theatre sorely disappointed and a little bit sad.

You see, The Force awakens was a great sci-fi movie. It was not at all a Star Wars movie.

I mean sure, on the most surface level, of course it was. It continued the plot, it had a consistent look with the original trilogy, many of those old characters were back, and numerous scenes from A New Hope were recreated (to the point where it was almost too much, at times, but I think the movie did skid the line skillfully and avoided becomind a parody of itself in this regard, which is good).

But the feel of the movie was not at all consistent with Star Wars. It is mostly about the characters - they didn't talk or behave like Star wars people do. Their quirky behavior, rapid dialog and choice of language was just really off

When discussing the matter with friends, I found it easiest to demonstrate the issue over one particular scene, where Fin gives BB8 a thumbs-up for helping him out, and BB8 responds with an improvised thumbs-up of his own. While that is a great character moment that certainly made me laugh out loud, consider it for a moment - people in Star Wars don't use a thumbs up gesture.

They just don't. Across six movies, a couple of TV shows and multiple video games, I've never seen anyone in that universe use that gesture.
Star Wars is a sort of sci-fi fantasy bland that happens in a Galaxy Far Far Away. As such, given what we've previously seen in that universe, a thumbs-up does not belong in a SW movie any more than it does in, say, a Lord Of The Ring movie. If a new movie came out where Legolas gives someone a thumbs-up (probably while somersaulting in slow motion and shooting fifty orcs in the face all at once), wouldn't that feel really weird and annoying? Wouldn't it break the setting a little bit?

And now, before people start nit picking the thumbs-up thing to death, remember I am just using it as an easy example of a bigger issue. Over the years an established pattern has been set for how characters in SW think and behave. The characters in this movie feel more like standard 21st century Americans wearing fancy space clothes than actual people in an actual fantasy/sci-fi setting where legendary magical knights use lightsabers to fight clones.

Consider the trailers for the movie, too. Do you notice how different their tone is to that of most conversations in the movie? That is because the trailer was constructed to be reminiscent of the old movies. You just couldn't do that by using most parts of the dialog.

So the characters were the most major issue, but there were other things. The self aware, winking sense of humor, funny though it was, was also a new addition to Star Wars. The old movies had humor, but never one that made light of the concept of the movies themselves. In fact, most of the humor was derived exactly from just how serious the movies were about their somewhat silly subject matter. It was goofy at times, but never meta. Some said there was too much humor in the movie. What I think actually bothered them was, that the movie had the wrong kind of humor.

I am really, really confused that no one else is bothered by these things. When I talked with my friends about it they said I am just flat out wrong and that the way the new characters behave is exactly the same as the old characters. For many days I didn't bring it up here because I honestly didn't feel into arguing over it. But time has made my emotional response of, "good movie, but damn I wish it was a Star Wars movie instead" has subsided somewhat, and at this point I'm just really curious. Am I the crazy one?

Liberty's Edge

Lord Snow wrote:

OK... enough time has passed since me watching the movie that I am now able to gather my thoughts of it into something cohesive.

** spoiler omitted **...

Yes, you are.

Hating things because other people like them does not make you cool.

Sovereign Court

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You can't expect a same style of acting after 40 years.


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Kryzbyn wrote:

Ahh...the point could be moot...

The line from the script reads:

RotJ Script wrote:
Leia... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
So he did specifically ask her about her birth mother.

I 100% disapprove of the concept that one's adoptive mother isn't their real mother.


Lord Snow wrote:

OK... enough time has passed since me watching the movie that I am now able to gather my thoughts of it into something cohesive.

** spoiler omitted **...

The meta-humor and clunky dialog were two of my specific complaints.

But your mention of the "feel" led me to realize another thing that I missed in this film. The kookie transition wipes. The first six movies have all kinds of left/right, right/left, fish eye, etc, etc transition wipes that were missing from TFA.


BigDTBone wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Ahh...the point could be moot...

The line from the script reads:

RotJ Script wrote:
Leia... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
So he did specifically ask her about her birth mother.
I 100% disapprove of the concept that one's adoptive mother isn't their real mother.

Yeah, it's a clumsy and somewhat offensive way of asking about it. But it's one that was obviously intended to refer to her birth mother and it's a huge stretch to claim that the character wouldn't have understood it as such, especially since, as already said, that makes the scene more effective and she would remember more of her adoptive mother than that.

Liberty's Edge

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Imbicatus wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
SPOILER Kylo Ren wrote:
** spoiler omitted **[/spoiler]

movie spoiler lol

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

NNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!!

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

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Spoiler free opinion.

I finally got to see it with my wife after a horrible movie experience attempting to see it on Christmas Day. We enjoyed it, but saw that it had major plot and background flaws. What most people forget is that the original trilogy had major plot holes as well. The flaws in VII are on par with the narrative integrity I expect from Star Wars. The impression I'm getting is that everyone who grew up watching Star Wars IV=VI (whether you like the prequels or not) is grown up now, and quite likely is not holding the original movies up to the same level of scrutiny they have for this one.

Historically speaking, for me, I gave up on Star Wars when I saw the prequels. But when I saw the opening scene of SWTOR, I realized that Star Wars had a lot of potential when Lucas isn't writing it. So when Disney bought the property and announced that they were making new movies, I was hopeful. Then when I heard they gave it to JJ Abrams, my fears were renewed and my expectations were lowered. I've always thought JJ was a terrible storyteller. But JJ has a major advantage over his peers. Even when his story doesn't make any sense, whatever he puts on the big screen is going to look awesome. Even if he doesn't get story, he gets action, and I would rather see this go to JJ than, say, Michael Bay.

My biggest problem with the movie is that it follows too closely beat for beat the iconic elements of the original film. What mitigates this problem is that the original film was good. By extension this film is also good. Very fun to watch. I can confidently hold this up to the original three films and feel like it belongs there. Would I have liked it better if it told a different story? Maybe. But in my opinion, this is probably the best thing JJ has done. I mean, you could nitpick it to death, but I could probably watch it three or four more times before it started to gather dust on my DVD shelf. Overall, I'm satisfied, but not overwhelmed. And I don't mean not overwhelmed in a hipster kind of too cool for school kind of way, it was good. I'm not underwhelmed either. I'm comfortably situated the high end of whelmed.

Liberty's Edge

Um...

Whelmed...

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Hint: Whelmed and overwhelmed mean the same thing.

Dark Archive

Bro!

Working Lightsaber

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

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Krensky wrote:

Um...

Whelmed...

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Hint: Whelmed and overwhelmed mean the same thing.

What, like flammable and inflammable?

Boy, I found that one out the hard way.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lord Snow wrote:
thumbs up

Hmmm.

That's saying a lot about what I thought was a poignant scene.

The Alliance Rebels have always used hand signals.

How do you feel about Han's The Empire Strikes Back line "Then I'll see you in hell?" Or Han shrugging at the Imperial Biker Scout the bunker on Endor?

Scarab Sages

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Han uses a lot of modern idioms in his speech in the OT.
"Over my dead body!"

"Hey, remember you lost her to me, fair and square."

"Don't get cocky!"

"What's going on... Buddy?"

"Now don't get jittery, Luke."

"Jeez, I'm out of it for a little while, everyone gets delusions of grandeur!"

Scarab Sages

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Christopher Dudley wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Um...

Whelmed...

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Hint: Whelmed and overwhelmed mean the same thing.

What, like flammable and inflammable?

Boy, I found that one out the hard way.

What a country!

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Just a Mort wrote:

Just a rant.

** spoiler omitted **

Getting caught up here, but this one:

Spoiler:

Quote:


1) Why didn't Leia start a new jedi academy with Luke running off? She's as force talented as Luke, and in the story books, there are lots of people who learn to use the force spontaneously. She could have done some self study, then go train up a new generation of Jedi.

Ben Kenobi, who had been brought up trained in the Force, attempted to take on ONE student. That student turned to the Dark Side and ruined everything for everyone.

Luke, who had, in the judgment of a 900-year-old Jedi Master, completed his training, then successfully redeemed a Dark Jedi and had withstood the power of the Emperor attempted to train several students, and his (I'm extrapolating here) most promising student turned to the Dark Side and ruined everything for everyone.

What would give Leia the idea that she could do better?

The Exchange

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Krensky wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:

OK... enough time has passed since me watching the movie that I am now able to gather my thoughts of it into something cohesive.

** spoiler omitted **...

Yes, you are.

Hating things because other people like them does not make you cool.

Don't know where you get that from my post... I didn't hate the movie, as I said numerous time, it just wasn't what I wanted it to be. Also, you and I have seen each other's opinions on many things in these forums. Do you know me to be the type to think that way? I hate the movies I hate, like those I like and love those I love based on my internal set of criteria. I never present them as objective, even when I do argue them emphatically.

Hama wrote:
You can't expect a same style of acting after 40 years.

Maybe I shouldn't have, but the way it happened is that I did, and it made the thing too jarring to me. But consider other series with long gaps - in Mad Max: Fury Road, I felt the characters were pretty much consistent with how they behaved in Road Warrior. But maybe that's just because I'm far less attuned to that movie than I am to Star Wars.

Quote:

Han uses a lot of modern idioms in his speech in the OT.

"Over my dead body!"

"Hey, remember you lost her to me, fair and square."

"Don't get cocky!"

"What's going on... Buddy?"

"Now don't get jittery, Luke."

"Jeez, I'm out of it for a little while, everyone gets delusions of grandeur!"

Yes, those flaws are there, but they had the distinct advantage of being there first. They pretty much set the tone of what's in or out from the Star Wars jargon. So, yes, I am aware that people in Star Wars (you'll notice almost exclusively Han, by the way, as opposed to almost every character in Force AWakens) sometimes sound a bit like '70s Americans. Similarly, the Illiad was written in the language of the time and place it was written at, and if there is any historical event that it actually describes the people in it probably talked completely different from the characters in the play. However, if you've written another chapter of it today and the character spoke and behaved like modern people, wouldn't that feel weird?

Quote:

Hmmm.

That's saying a lot about what I thought was a poignant scene.

The Alliance Rebels have always used hand signals.

How do you feel about Han's The Empire Strikes Back line "Then I'll see you in hell?" Or Han shrugging at the Imperial Biker Scout the bunker on Endor?

Same reply as above.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

MMCJawa wrote:


Spoiler:

(Kylo Ren)'s everything that Anakin should have been in the prequels,

My thoughts exactly. I said almost that exact phrase to my wife after the movie.

Liberty's Edge

hey; that bit about Han's....."out of place colloquialisms" gave me a thought.

Spoiler:

Rey has a British accent and not an American 70's accent like Han or Luke. Therefore she probably IS the grand daughter of Kenobi.

Liberty's Edge

Even I don't know how serious i am. im THAT sarcastic.

Dark Archive

Deleted scenes from The Force Awakens

Some rather informative.

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