Star Wars: The Force Awakens


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Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:
I got bored pretty quick and wondered why they couldn't come up with a plot that wasn't just a reboot of Episodes IV and VI.

To be fair, one could argue that Episode IV was just a re imagination of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, but it still had its merits and iconography.


Imbicatus wrote:

The one thing I didn't like about Kylo Ren was the complete lack of Dark Side corruption. He didn't have to be withered like Palpatine, but even pre-suit Anakin had the yellow eyes going on.

Kylo Ren was powerful enough to do thing we have never seen with the force, but wasn't getting any of the common negative effects from the dark side.

Thing is the "light" side of the Force isn't particularly good. You apparently can do a whole lot of crap with the "Light side".... as long as you don't lose your temper while doing it.... such as skewering roomfuls of young Padawans... Anakin doesn't show a shred of emotion while committing that scene of mass murder... so he didn't gain a single Dark side point while doing it.

But have a fit of rage because your pizza is cold? That's one dark side point right there!


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baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:
I got bored pretty quick and wondered why they couldn't come up with a plot that wasn't just a reboot of Episodes IV and VI.
To be fair, one could argue that Episode IV was just a re imagination of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, but it still had its merits and iconography.

Don't forget The Searchers.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

The one thing I didn't like about Kylo Ren was the complete lack of Dark Side corruption. He didn't have to be withered like Palpatine, but even pre-suit Anakin had the yellow eyes going on.

Kylo Ren was powerful enough to do thing we have never seen with the force, but wasn't getting any of the common negative effects from the dark side.

Thing is the "light" side of the Force isn't particularly good. You apparently can do a whole lot of crap with the "Light side".... as long as you don't lose your temper while doing it.... such as skewering roomfuls of young Padawans... Anakin doesn't show a shred of emotion while committing that scene of mass murder... so he didn't gain a single Dark side point while doing it.

But have a fit of rage because your pizza is cold? That's one dark side point right there!

not sure what you are talking about. He had a whole monolog about how he was now dark side before that.

Sovereign Court

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I'm sorry what?
Committing evil acts brings you closer to the dark side.

Scarab Sages

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On Star Wars fans...


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baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:
I got bored pretty quick and wondered why they couldn't come up with a plot that wasn't just a reboot of Episodes IV and VI.
To be fair, one could argue that Episode IV was just a re imagination of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, but it still had its merits and iconography.

This is a pretty solid thing.

Also, I figured since I posted this in another thread, I'd just re-post it here.

Tacticslion wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

If you have not seen it yet Tacticslion, I highly recommend Mad Max, Fury Road.

The best movie I've seen this year (I haven't seen Star Wars yet but I'm very doubtful it'll be as good, tho I'm sure it'll be close).

I have not, and I've not had the ability to do so... and am unlikely to have the ability for some time, unfortunately. It's just... it's unlikely to happen.

(We've one-point-five seasons of The Awesomes, one season of Community, two seasons of Once, two Hunger Games sequels, Over the Garden Wall, Ant Man, and... dang it, I don't know what else, just sitting there, waiting to be watched. Not to mention attempting to find Mr. Holmes, The Martian, the latest season(s) of Sherlock and others...)

My wife is not a fan of such films, and any free time that isn't spent with my children, is spent with her, or playing Steam games.

I also suspect The Martian of being better than Episode 7, though I've not seen it, either, and perhaps even Inside Out (which I have seen, now, twice).

But there is something that those films all lack: Star Wars.

Heck, I'll even go on record as noting that Star Trek made me actually tear up i.e. "cry" more, and was probably "better" than The Force Awakens.

What Episode VII did is something that I almost thought impossible: it rekindled my love for a franchise that was hugely important to me throughout my formative years and into my adulthood.

It managed a feat that I cynically doubted... and so cynically doubted that it honestly took a second viewing before I was able to let go of my cynicism to deeply enjoy what I already knew I loved (and had enjoyed) from the first viewing.

There are flaws with the film... but I rank it equal, in film-making and my own personal love, to Episode 4.

Shockingly I like the new cast better than the old - and not just in this film, but in the franchise to date. Harrison Ford gave an excellent performance and was still not the actor/character I liked best in a film that he starred in, and I don't know how to feel about that. The films show a deep promise and end in a surprising and fascinating ways. The homages need to have previous knowledge to "get"... but if you don't understand them, they feel (to me) like all the ever-mysterious references to Luke's father in "the war" in A New Hope and similar (though there were some things that were a bit too opaque and not fleshed out enough to my thinking).

Frankly, it did everything right... it took a series that I loved, but had grown jaded and cynical about and it broke through my self-imposed barriers. I didn't want to get hurt by Star Wars again, and... it didn't do that.

For the record, though I submit that Empire was a better film, Jedi was always my favorite of the OT. It finished the saga, Luke (and his lightsaber) looked freakin' awesome, and it was over-all a great experience... that couldn't have worked without the first two films (and doesn't, if you try to take it as a story by itself).

Star Wars is awesome. Episode 7 is excellent. I am really happy, and I would go see it again, if we had babysitters... but we don't, so we won't go a third time. I'm just happy I got to see it.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

You don't see this sort of backlash directed at characters like Harry Potter or Aragorn.

Just to be clear, I think Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker and Annakin (throwup in my mouth) Skywalker to be Gary Stu's in certain ways. Luke is probably the best written, but worst offender of the three (IMO, I like the HP movies, but Harry gets a whiny for my tastes).

Regardless, being a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is not mutually exclusive. Just because one character in one franchise is or is not one, has no bearing on whether another character in a different franchise is one. Just like two cars can be red, or even different shades of red, two different characters can both be a Gary Stu.

If you want to defend Rey, defend Rey. By that, I mean actually talk about Rey and discuss the elements of HER character that make her work/not work and why she might or might not be a Mary Sue. I'm really annoyed at people who defend Rey, but only talk about other characters, or make assumptions about the people who are criticizing her.

I think she's a bit of a Mary Sue, though not as egregious as some. I think some of the complaints about her are valid (though not all). I think there are giant, gaping plot holes around her and the only visible explanation within the movie is that "she's the protagonist". That said, I still like the character. I think Ridley did an amazing job with her and she's one of the more interesting hero's in a movie of the past few years. I also think that the writing/directing/editing surrounding her could be better.

While I love Finn, I think a better, tighter movie could have been made if only Rey had been introduced in this episode, or if Finn was more sidekick, with him playing a bigger role in the next movie. There were deleted scenes that would have solved (not ideally, but better than now) some of Rey's issues.

When I say Luke is the worst offender by the way, it's pretty obvious that he's meant to be a sort of stand in for George Lucas.
Luke Skywalker
Luke S.
Lucas

Plus he named his home Skywalker Ranch. Lucas clearly sees himself in Luke.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Hama wrote:

I'm sorry what?

Committing evil acts brings you closer to the dark side.

No, being more in touch with the Dark Side makes you more willing to commit evil acts.

EDIT: changed likely to willing


Irontruth wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

You don't see this sort of backlash directed at characters like Harry Potter or Aragorn.

Just to be clear, I think Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker and Annakin (throwup in my mouth) Skywalker to be Gary Stu's in certain ways. Luke is probably the best written, but worst offender of the three (IMO, I like the HP movies, but Harry gets a whiny for my tastes).

Regardless, being a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is not mutually exclusive. Just because one character in one franchise is or is not one, has no bearing on whether another character in a different franchise is one. Just like two cars can be red, or even different shades of red, two different characters can both be a Gary Stu.

Yes, but there is value in pointing out that certain characters get harassed as "Mary Sues" for doing less than others.

Quote:
If you want to defend Rey, defend Rey. By that, I mean actually talk about Rey and discuss the elements of HER character that make her work/not work and why she might or might not be a Mary Sue. I'm really annoyed at people who defend Rey, but only talk about other characters, or make assumptions about the people who are criticizing her.

I didn't do that. You just quoted out-of-context the lone remark I made about other characters and accused me of only talking about other characters. Careful, Irontruth.

Sovereign Court

Christopher Dudley wrote:
Hama wrote:

I'm sorry what?

Committing evil acts brings you closer to the dark side.

No, being more in touch with the Dark Side makes you more willing to commit evil acts.

EDIT: changed likely to willing

And vice versa. It's not one-sided.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

You don't see this sort of backlash directed at characters like Harry Potter or Aragorn.

Just to be clear, I think Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker and Annakin (throwup in my mouth) Skywalker to be Gary Stu's in certain ways. Luke is probably the best written, but worst offender of the three (IMO, I like the HP movies, but Harry gets a whiny for my tastes).

Regardless, being a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is not mutually exclusive. Just because one character in one franchise is or is not one, has no bearing on whether another character in a different franchise is one. Just like two cars can be red, or even different shades of red, two different characters can both be a Gary Stu.

Yes, but there is value in pointing out that certain characters get harassed as "Mary Sues" for doing less than others.

Quote:
If you want to defend Rey, defend Rey. By that, I mean actually talk about Rey and discuss the elements of HER character that make her work/not work and why she might or might not be a Mary Sue. I'm really annoyed at people who defend Rey, but only talk about other characters, or make assumptions about the people who are criticizing her.
I didn't do that. You just quoted out-of-context the lone remark I made about other characters and accused me of only talking about other characters. Careful, Irontruth.

What exactly am I supposed to be careful about? Also, what happens if I'm not careful?

I didn't say anything offensive. You should also note that earlier in this thread, I stated Furiosa is my favorite action hero of the year. Virtually flawless. I'm also willing to admit many male characters are Gary Stu's.

I'm tired of people defending Rey with bad arguments, such as going after the motive of a critic, or only talking about other characters. If you think she isn't a Mary Sue, tell me why SHE isn't a Mary Sue. Telling me why someone else is a Gary Stu isn't proof.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think the likely problem with this Mary Sue issue is that unfortunately a bunch of misogynists have decided that every time there is a female lead, they need to weigh in that she's a Mary Sue, and "Rawr!Feminism bad!"

Anyone that spends any time on these boards (at least in OTD) knows that Irontruth is a pretty liberal person. I can tell you that I really doubt that misogynism has even one thing to do with IT's analysis.

It certainly IS possible that one can think Rey is a Mary Sue, and not be misogynist. I think that's what is happening here. It is just unfortunate that the MRA folks are so vocal. It tends to lead to anyone that happens to agree with them on one very specific issue being lumped in with them.


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Yes, it's made it frustrating for me really. I think she certainly has Mary Sue characteristics, I'd view it (like a lot of things) as more of a spectrum than binary. A character can be enjoyable while being a Mary Sue as well.

I also dislike a lot of male action heroes, they're cookie cutter bland, tough guys. Directors think that 4 days of unshaven stubble qualifies as "personality". I enjoy Jason Statham movies, but it isn't for the quality of the writing, or his broad range of acting abilities.


I dunno that I've said Rey is not a Mary Sue. My point is that she may be, and that's ok, because all of the main protagonists in the franchise are.
Not really a "No she's not, because Luke was," but "So what if she is, because Luke was".
I don't think it's a valid complaint, when it's par for the course.

EDIT: If it was not a complaint, but merely an observation, then my apologies.


Irontruth wrote:


What exactly am I supposed to be careful about? Also, what happens if I'm not careful?

The argument will go in doofy directions. :P

MeanDM wrote:

Anyone that spends any time on these boards (at least in OTD) knows that Irontruth is a pretty liberal person. I can tell you that I really doubt that misogynism has even one thing to do with IT's analysis.

It certainly IS possible that one can think Rey is a Mary Sue, and not be misogynist. I think that's what is happening here. It is just unfortunate that the MRA folks are so vocal. It tends to lead to anyone that happens to agree with them on one very specific issue being lumped in with them.

I agree entirely. But I never said everyone who thinks Rey is a Mary Sue is being sexist. I pointed out an inconsistency in criticisms, but that doesn't mean everyone who makes those criticisms is being targeted.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Irontruth wrote:

Yes, it's made it frustrating for me really. I think she certainly has Mary Sue characteristics, I'd view it (like a lot of things) as more of a spectrum than binary. A character can be enjoyable while being a Mary Sue as well.

I also dislike a lot of male action heroes, they're cookie cutter bland, tough guys. Directors think that 4 days of unshaven stubble qualifies as "personality". I enjoy Jason Statham movies, but it isn't for the quality of the writing, or his broad range of acting abilities.

Although Statham was hilarious in Spy last summer, playing a mockery of his normal character.


For me a character doesn't become a Mary Sue until they are the best at every plot relevant skill/ability. The author insert is no longer the really relevant part - it's the 'anything others can do, I can do better' aspect, usually combined with everyone loves/is great friends with them, except for people the audience isn't supposed to like.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I, personally, don't think she is a Mary Sue, for lots of the reasons listed above. I don't have much problem with the idea that she could learn some powers via trial and error. She has to try at least a couple of times to use the Jedi mind trick on the stormtrooper. Also, it, at least to me, feels like an extension of the mind probe power, of which she had so recently become intimately acquainted.

KC, I really wasn't aiming my analysis at anyone in particular, or you in specific, just making a general point.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Phew, finally saw it! So, what have I missed in the discussion?


For me it's really the shepherding through the plot that happens via invisible forces. Characters who interact with her suddenly change their stated goals with no reason given.

On the plus side I do love the bit of dialogue she has with BB-8 when they first meet:

Spoiler:
Rey: Where are you from?
BB-8: Beeping
Rey: Classified? Me too, big secret.


MeanDM wrote:

I think the likely problem with this Mary Sue issue is that unfortunately a bunch of misogynists have decided that every time there is a female lead, they need to weigh in that she's a Mary Sue, and "Rawr!Feminism bad!"

Anyone that spends any time on these boards (at least in OTD) knows that Irontruth is a pretty liberal person. I can tell you that I really doubt that misogynism has even one thing to do with IT's analysis.

It certainly IS possible that one can think Rey is a Mary Sue, and not be misogynist. I think that's what is happening here. It is just unfortunate that the MRA folks are so vocal. It tends to lead to anyone that happens to agree with them on one very specific issue being lumped in with them.

OTOH, these things can often be subtle and people can, despite not being anything like MRA and not looking for excuses to do so, still be more likely see female characters as Mary Sues than male ones.

I'm not saying is doing this of course, but it's a thing worth looking out for, especially in one's self.
Obviously Rey has some of the common traits - enough that there's reasonable debate about it. It's not like Mary Sueism is strictly defined anyway. We probably all have slightly different images of what it means anyway. She's certainly not the most egregious kind.


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To me a Mary Sue is any female protagonist written by Joss Whedon.

Dark Archive

Jiggy wrote:
Phew, finally saw it! So, what have I missed in the discussion?

spoiler:
Well, it's 1470ish posts in.
Spoiler:
So not much different from what you are surrounded by now.
Spoiler:
Kylo Ren
Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Phew, finally saw it! So, what have I missed in the discussion?

The usual.


MeanDM wrote:


KC, I really wasn't aiming my analysis at anyone in particular, or you in specific, just making a general point.

Oh, the irony.

Irontruth wrote:
For me it's really the shepherding through the plot that happens via invisible forces. Characters who interact with her suddenly change their stated goals with no reason given.

Really? I don't remember that. Unless you're talking about Finn.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
MeanDM wrote:


KC, I really wasn't aiming my analysis at anyone in particular, or you in specific, just making a general point.

Oh, the irony.

Irontruth wrote:
For me it's really the shepherding through the plot that happens via invisible forces. Characters who interact with her suddenly change their stated goals with no reason given.
Really? I don't remember that. Unless you're talking about Finn.

Spoiler:
My major complaints, that make her feel Mary Sue-ish are as follows:

1) Her sudden and dramatic skill with the force. It's not that she can use the force, it's how suddenly and skillfully she does so. I think the solution for this would have been to include one or two minor hints earlier. For example while negotiating the price of her salvage, she inexplicably gets a better deal and the person behind her in line makes a comment about mind control, she can quip back that she's just better at finding/repairing parts than they are. One or two small hints that the Force is present in her life, even if they're immediately brushed off as just being luck/skill/jealousy.

2) Every character who meets her becomes obsessed with her. Maz Kanata immediately hands over one of the most sought after relics in the Galaxy. BB-8 immediately trusts her (and Finn) and follows her everywhere. Finn basically falls in love with her. Han Solo does a double take when she sits in the co-pilot seat, but then offers her a job. Leia gives her Han's ship, Luke's lightsaber, Chewie, R2-D2 and sends her off on the mission Leia has been trying to finish for years, if not decades. Kylo Ren becomes obsessed with her.

Now, some of that makes sense within the story, my problem is with the shear number of things I can pile up in that paragraph. My other problem with it is that one of them, a major one, isn't given any explanation in the movie. IMO, a scene where an outside influence makes it so Leia has to trust Rey with finding Luke would have been huge. Or if Poe and Finn had gone with Rey, that would make complete sense to me as well (though I suspect it doesn't fit with how they want to start the next movie).

For example, Poe had already been sent on important missions to help find Luke. Leia sends Poe again. Poe decides to take his new friend, Finn with him. Finn says yes, as long as he can bring his only other friend with as well. Boom, trio goes off to find Luke. That trio setting off together would make perfect sense within the context of the movie (other than Finn being in a coma).

I've seen it 4 times, watching very closely specifically for this: There is no context given for why Rey takes the Millennium Falcon to find Luke, other than the context of "of course the protagonist does this".

I'm sorry, I thought of some context for why Leia sends Rey, she's a really good hugger. Leia only sends good huggers off on important missions.


Spoiler:
I know you've complained that it wasn't stated, but I assume there was some debriefing in between returning from the fight and leaving to find Luke. And that debriefing included "discovered she had force abilities and beat Kylo Ren in a light saber duel (his injuries aside)".

To me, that's sufficient to justify sending her to find Luke.
And maybe sufficient to not put on screen, especially since they already stretching the post-climax phase of the movie.

I suspect some it also ties into whatever her mysterious background is. It's definitely hinted that Han knows something about her, which is really sufficient to cover almost everything. They're saving that reveal for a later movie. Of course, that means suspending some judgement until we see how the reveal actually turns out.

Leia hugging her instead of Chewie when they came back without Han was weird and is either an important clue or a really out-of-character misstep.

Edit: I suppose I should still spoiler that.


Plus don't forget that Chewie goes with her - he isn't given to her like some kind of pet.

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Grey Lensman wrote:
Plus don't forget that Chewie goes with her - he isn't given to her like some kind of pet.

spoiler:
Tell me about it. They said I was being insensitive and sent me to my room because I wanted to name the dog Chewie.
Spoiler:
Kylo Ren
Dark Archive

spoiler:
AGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! All this talk about HUGS!!!
Spoiler:
Kylo Ren


<hugs Kylo Ren>


Irontruth wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
MeanDM wrote:


KC, I really wasn't aiming my analysis at anyone in particular, or you in specific, just making a general point.

Oh, the irony.

Irontruth wrote:
For me it's really the shepherding through the plot that happens via invisible forces. Characters who interact with her suddenly change their stated goals with no reason given.
Really? I don't remember that. Unless you're talking about Finn.
** spoiler omitted **...

Spoiler:
I don't really see that as making her a Mary Sue, rather than trying to indicate her connection with events. I think it's pretty heavily suggested that Han, Leia and Kylo Ren all either know who Rey really is or have made an educated guess on who she might be.

The idea that she's a Skywalker (either through Leia or Luke) and the main characters know, but also have reasons to not want her to know yet, goes a long way to giving context to a lot of the reactions to her and the abilities that she shows. Maz for example offers the lightsabre after we'd last seen her asking Han about Rey and there was a cutaway to Rey before we saw Han answer. I'd imagine the combination of seeing how Rey was drawn to it and whatever Han said is what made Maz do that.

Now sure, who she's finally revealed to be might make these events make more or less sense in context. But I think a large chunk of the inconsistencies certainly can be explained by Rey having missing memories and the characters currently having information that we the audience don't have yet.


baron arem heshvaun wrote:
I was telling the news reporters at the premier that I would have love to see Phasma take down an X Wing from the ground with some heavy blaster riffle, not a rocket launcher or surface to air missile, but a heavy version of Stromtrooper blaster, that would show how bada$$ she was.

Dude that would be awesome. I can see somebody in an X-Wing flying in firing at her in an airspeeder. She stops reaches in the back and pulls out an old T-21 heavy blaster, aims calmly as the X-Wing fires at her, and disables it.


MeanDM wrote:

I think the likely problem with this Mary Sue issue is that unfortunately a bunch of misogynists have decided that every time there is a female lead, they need to weigh in that she's a Mary Sue, and "Rawr!Feminism bad!"

Anyone that spends any time on these boards (at least in OTD) knows that Irontruth is a pretty liberal person. I can tell you that I really doubt that misogynism has even one thing to do with IT's analysis.

It certainly IS possible that one can think Rey is a Mary Sue, and not be misogynist. I think that's what is happening here. It is just unfortunate that the MRA folks are so vocal. It tends to lead to anyone that happens to agree with them on one very specific issue being lumped in with them.

That is why it is generally better to address the specific argument than to attempt to challenge the particular person making it.


Wait, so, if I understand correctly, for "Mary Sue" to apply, three separate requirements need to be fulfilled: (a) she's better at all plot-relevant skills than all the other characters, and (b) the other characters love/trust her for no good reason, and (c) she's a stand-in/wish fulfillment for the writer. Again, all three have to apply. Is that right?

Let's take a look:

(a)

Spoiler:
She's a better hyperspace pilot (Han's impressed), better sub-light pilot (through a wrecked ship), and better mechanic (capacitor override) than everyone we've seen; she's better at hand-to-hand combat; and she's she's way more powerful with the force. And she can talk to droids. Anakin/Darth Vader had only 5/6, and unlike Vader, Rey doesn't need a ventilator, and has less angst. She's pretty much got a wider array of awesome in everything than any Star Wars character ever. Even if they took one or two things away and gave them to Finn, she'd still be stupendously awesome (which, lest I be misunderstood, is not a bad thing for a protagonist to be).

So let's look at the other two:

(b)

Spoiler:
A lot of people are stating that their impression was that this condition was fulfilled as well, whether through the Power of Being the Protagonst or whatever. But thejeff counters, "no, they should totally like and trust her because off-screen," and there's really no way we can disprove that any more than we can disprove the vile rumor about how Keanu Reeves got his first acting jobs, so I guess we have to leave that one for now. Let's go on to (c).

(c)

Spoiler:
There's no way to prove or disprove this; it's idle speculation either way unless JJA starts dressing like Rey and carrying a gaffi stick or whatever that was.

So, we've got 1 "yes" and 2 "no way to knows." I motion we leave the question of Rey's Mary-Sue-ness as being answered with "unknowable at this time." Which means that that by a standard of reasonable doubt, she's provisionally acquitted -- but people who still think she is, most likely are NOT misogynist pigs for thinking that, given the strong evidence in favor.

Personally, she's my favorite character so far out of all 7 movies (well, except maybe Dukoo because of the awesomeness of Christopher Lee), but that still doesn't mean I don't wish they hadn't been quite so stingy with Finn.


Theories on what could have happened are irrelevant. I'm judging the movie based on what I saw.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:

Wait, so, if I understand correctly, for "Mary Sue" to apply, three separate requirements need to be fulfilled: (a) she's better at all plot-relevant skills than all the other characters, and (b) the other characters love/trust her for no good reason, and (c) she's a stand-in/wish fulfillment for the writer. Again, all three have to apply. Is that right?

Let's take a look:

(a)

Spoiler:
She's a better hyperspace pilot (Han's impressed), better sub-light pilot (through a wrecked ship), and better mechanic (capacitor override) than everyone we've seen; she's better at hand-to-hand combat; and she's she's way more powerful with the force. And she can talk to droids. Anakin/Darth Vader had only 5/6, and unlike Vader, Rey doesn't need a ventilator, and has less angst. She's pretty much got a wider array of awesome in everything than any Star Wars character ever. Even if they took one or two things away and gave them to Finn, she'd still be stupendously awesome (which, lest I be misunderstood, is not a bad thing for a protagonist to be).
.

Let's take another look at (a) because we have very different impressions:

Spoiler:
Rey may fly through a wreck - one that she knows the layout to. But Han flawlessly pilots the Falcon along asteroids never encountered before and Lando pilots her through the Death Star 2's superstructure. And though Lando breaks off the dish, it's Rey who pilots the Falcon like she's driving a bumper car. That's two better pilots of the Falcon we've seen. She is a better mechanic than Han, though. So I'll give you that one. She also talks with droids, but Anakin was building them at 9 and being a better pilot, also at 9. So he blows the roof off any comparison on those factors. Until she taps the force in the final fight with Ren, she's getting her ass handed to her by a petulant Vader-wannabe with a critical injury in his side. We've seen better fighters in the saga multiple times, including, I'd say, Obi-wan as a padawan under Qui-Gon.


Irontruth wrote:
Theories on what could have happened are irrelevant. I'm judging the movie based on what I saw.

Except if you're talking about Mary Sue, you're talking about motivation. Why a character is that way is a much apart of being a Mary Sue as any else.

Liberty's Edge

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Since it's not fan fiction, she can not be a Mary Sue.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Spoiler:
Rey never does any hyperspace piloting in the film (except maybe at the end to go find Luke). She bypasses the compressor to keep them from blowing up in hyperspace, but that's more of her tech knowledge. Han is far and away the best Hyperspace Pilot in the film. He decides to hyperspace out of the freighter's hanger (which Rey boggles at), and then later hyperspace through Starkiller Base's shield (which Finn boggles at).

She also isn't that great of a pilot. She crashes as much as she flies on Jakku, and I interpreted her ability to fly through wrecked ships as having more to do with her intimate knowledge of those wrecks than any great skill at piloting. Poe Dameron is a way better pilot. He takes down like 10 TIE fighters in he space of a minute.

She's also a lousy shot. She even tries to shoot her blaster while the safety is on. Han, Chewie, and Finn are all better shots.

Rey is great at tech, good at melee, ok at piloting, and pulls off two Force tricks with four attempts.


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pres man wrote:
MeanDM wrote:


It certainly IS possible that one can think Rey is a Mary Sue, and not be misogynist. I think that's what is happening here. It is just unfortunate that the MRA folks are so vocal. It tends to lead to anyone that happens to agree with them on one very specific issue being lumped in with them.
That is why it is generally better to address the specific argument than to attempt to challenge the particular person making it.

Not necessarily. People don't often change their rationalizations or opinions based on internet debates.

But one trend we do seem to see is a different, tougher, more skeptical standard applied to female characters than to male characters. A lot of women writers admit to being reluctant to write female characters because of so many accusations of writing Mary Sue characters - while there is less hue and cry about Gary Stus. One problem here is the different standard application may not even be conscious. So the goal of raising the issue of the Mary Sue problem is to get more people examining their standards of judgment. Is Rey being held to a tougher standard than Anakin? Than Luke? How about John McClane, James Kirk, Indiana Jones, or Tony Stark?


Kirth Gersen wrote:


So, we've got 1 "yes" and 2 "no way to knows." I motion we leave the question of Rey's Mary-Sue-ness as being answered with "unknowable at this time." Which means that that by a standard of reasonable doubt, she's provisionally acquitted...

Alternatively, I'd like to point out that literally all the evidence you found points to her being a Mary Sue, and there is literally nothing you have said that provides any suggestion that she's not one.

I don't need to follow a "reasonable doubt" standard here, this isn't a criminal court. By a "preponderance of the evidence" standard, there's more than enough to so classify her.

But frankly, I don't think the "there are still things we don't know" even establishes reasonable doubt. "Your honor, the prosecution has established method, motive and opportunity for my client, and four eyewitnesses claim to have seen my client in the act of committing a crime. But no one has addressed the question of whether the actual criminal was a shape-shifting alien from the planet Bandersnatch, and we have `no way to know' if that's the case. You must therefore acquit."

Yeah, right.

As a general rule, if you need to play the "reasonable doubt" card, you've lost the case. Ask any criminal lawyer. ("Amateurs discuss burden of proof, professionals focus on "theory of the case.")


Krensky wrote:
Since it's not fan fiction, she can not be a Mary Sue.

This is not exactly what a Mary Sue is. It's one of many definitions. The most common-denominator definition is, "A character with too many positive traits and no meaningful negative ones."

Also, I'm done using spoilers. It makes this conversation a pain in the ass.

Irontruth wrote:
2) Every character who meets her becomes obsessed with her. Maz Kanata immediately hands over one of the most sought after relics in the Galaxy. BB-8 immediately trusts her (and Finn) and follows her everywhere. Finn basically falls in love with her. Han Solo does a double take when she sits in the co-pilot seat, but then offers her a job. Leia gives her Han's ship, Luke's lightsaber, Chewie, R2-D2 and sends her off on the mission Leia has been trying to finish for years, if not decades. Kylo Ren becomes obsessed with her.

BB-8 trusts her because she saves his life and is trying to get him where he needs to go. That's a totally normal reasoning.

Maz Katana and Leia both trust her because she is strong with the Force and beats the Big Bad in single combat. That's not "because MC", it's totally logical. To do otherwise would actually make no sense.

Kylo Ren and Finn are both fair points. Finn and Rey are clearly supposed to form a bond, and Kylo Ren may know something about Rey she doesn't know about herself.

Han offers Rey a job basically replacing the crew he apparently used to have. That's not really meaningful. Her being good at flying a starship is a lot more meaningful than Han saying, "you know, Chewie and I could use someone to help out around here".

Rey probably goes to see Luke because she needs him to teach her the ways of the Force.

I know you acknowledged that these all make sense within the context of the narrative, but with the exceptions of Finn and Kylo Ren, they all feel way too nitpicky to matter. They make perfect sense and honestly would feel a bit strange had they not been done (except for Han's hiring, which was clearly done to give Han a mentorly role).


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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

She bypasses the compressor to keep them from blowing up in hyperspace, but that's more of her tech knowledge

Actually, come to think of it, that's actually a really fitting skill for her to have. As a junker, she may not be an expert on buttons, but she knows what parts to rip off. It gives her a different perspective on things.

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Removed posts. Please dial back on the hyperbole and over-the-top assumptions about other posters.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:


So, we've got 1 "yes" and 2 "no way to knows." I motion we leave the question of Rey's Mary-Sue-ness as being answered with "unknowable at this time." Which means that that by a standard of reasonable doubt, she's provisionally acquitted...

Alternatively, I'd like to point out that literally all the evidence you found points to her being a Mary Sue, and there is literally nothing you have said that provides any suggestion that she's not one.

I don't need to follow a "reasonable doubt" standard here, this isn't a criminal court. By a "preponderance of the evidence" standard, there's more than enough to so classify her.

But frankly, I don't think the "there are still things we don't know" even establishes reasonable doubt. "Your honor, the prosecution has established method, motive and opportunity for my client, and four eyewitnesses claim to have seen my client in the act of committing a crime. But no one has addressed the question of whether the actual criminal was a shape-shifting alien from the planet Bandersnatch, and we have `no way to know' if that's the case. You must therefore acquit."

Yeah, right.

As a general rule, if you need to play the "reasonable doubt" card, you've lost the case. Ask any criminal lawyer. ("Amateurs discuss burden of proof, professionals focus on "theory of the case.")

Except you're doing so a third of the way through the story with a character with a deliberately hidden origin and lots of hints throughout that not only is there something there but at least some of the older characters guess at it.

Will she still have been a Mary Sue in this movie if it all makes sense when the trilogy is complete?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Rey's background:

Looking through a handful of recent posts, I've noticed multiple references to "Oooh, Han & Company seem to know who she is, what's her secret?!"

Am I the only one not looking for a big reveal there? She was waiting for someone to come back for her on Jakku since she was a child, but she knows they're not coming back (basically, they're dead). The Force is strong with her, and we know it runs in families. A bunch of Force-sensitive folks were rounded up years ago to be trained by Luke, then Kylo Ren killed them all. If I'm not mistaken, the overlap between people close to this event and people who know Rey is 100%.

Thus, before even leaving the theatre, my wife and I both concluded that Rey's backstory was that her parents left her on Jakku while they went to train with Luke, then they got killed and so she was waiting forever. Then she meets people intimately familiar with the botched Jedi Camp, who probably have at least a passing knowledge of who was at Jedi Camp and where they were from/whom they left behind.

...Isn't that what we were supposed to get?


Kryzbyn wrote:
To me a Mary Sue is any female protagonist written by Joss Whedon.

:-D


I don't get the sense Rey knows yet, but I do think it's something we can guess.

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