Hey all,
Let's say the PCs are talking to an NPC and they, through one of the various means, figure out the poor soul is under the effects of a charm effect. So they tell them.
Let's assume for this discussion that we are at a point beyond:
"no, I'm not!"
"yes, you are"
"no!"
"..'fraid so"
So now our NPC believes them. What do they do? How do they act?
Enchantment isn't like Illusion, there is no extra save with a bonus for pointing it out.
How does one interpret the fact that their 'friend' forced them to "perceive their words and actions in the most favourable way" in the most favourable way?
Thanks for your thoughts
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It depends. Being under a magical effect is complicated, as the person believes that he is doing something in his best interest or in good faith.
Some magical effects depending on how convincing you are, might allow said npc to get a will saving throw to break out of it but usually...the biggest issue with people who tends to use charm/dominate person a lot, they tend to combine enchantment with mundane means. As in using diplomacy for example ,to actually become someone real friend. If they have been doing it for a long time, even breaking out of a magical effect might not do much, as per the rule , the npc has been seduced to become a good friend or even worst fanatic, willing to give their lives for their enchanter/master.
If it isn't combined with mundane means, forcing a new saving throw is the best way to go about it, to see how strong his or her will to break out of the enchantment. Of course, pcs can help with that, with spells like dispel magic/break enchantment etc...
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I'm reminded of a Buffy episode that pretty much had that moment:
"So, he cast a spell to make us think he was cool? That is ... so cool."
However, as for how it'd play I think it'd be more like the kind of emotive rationalising that people go through when asked to explain why they are still friends with 'that guy'*: the charmed person might talk about all of their other awesome qualities, or say they must have had a pretty good reason for charming them, or say they're just glad to help out such an awesome fellow, or equally glad to help out someone who must have really needed their help.
If the PC wasn't too aggressive in trying to break the charm or ruin their image of the charmer, they might be able to wheedle information about the charmer or what the NPC did while charmed, framed as their redeeming features or the good times they had together. Ruining their image of their newest good friend would probably alienate most NPCs from the PCs.
*You know 'that guy', right? The friend who is at the margins of what you'd consider acceptable social behaviour for a friend, which means half of your friends think he's a total jerk/bore.
Personally, I've always run it as it's simply impossible to convince the person that they're under an enchantment.
Basically, "No, my friend would never do that. You must be mistaken sir."
I'd look at it like this: You can cast "Charm Person" on someone while they're looking at you.
For Example: You cast Charm Person on a Wizard. The Wizard succeeds at a Spellcraft check, and attempts to counterspell it with Dispel Magic, but fails.
In this example, if simply knowing the spell was there would break the spell, then that counterspell couldn't fail (and you wouldn't actually need the counterspell).
I agree with the common consensus here, they would think their "friend" had a good reason for it, and justify it in their minds.
HOWEVER/
In the text for Charm Person it says:
Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell.
This means that if you can convince them that what they've been asked to do is a threat to them, it could end the spell/effect. I don't know how that related to every effect that can charm a person, but it's something to think about.
Edit: Actually, thinking about it, if the wizard tries to counterspell it, that probably means they see it as a threat, which means it would break the spell ... I'll leave that open to discussion =P
She and her sisters use their powers to fight evil and save innocents. :)
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"I'm sure he had a good reason to charm me!" - While under the effects.
"I can't believe that sneaky son of a b@&%% charmed me!" - Afterward.
Hey all,
Let's say the PCs are talking to an NPC and they, through one of the various means, figure out the poor soul is under the effects of a charm effect. So they tell them.
Let's assume for this discussion that we are at a point beyond:
"no, I'm not!"
"yes, you are"
"no!"
"..'fraid so"So now our NPC believes them. What do they do? How do they act?
Enchantment isn't like Illusion, there is no extra save with a bonus for pointing it out.How does one interpret the fact that their 'friend' forced them to "perceive their words and actions in the most favourable way" in the most favourable way?
Thanks for your thoughts
They may get another save, depending on the GM. But as long as the charm spell is in effect they will unreasonably still treat their charmer as a close and trusted friend as per the spell.
It is magic. It is not logical.
Until the spell ends, the victim makes their save, or the spell is somehow removed they are charmed. Nowhere in the charm spell does it say that revealing to the charmed person that they are affected ends the spell.
So as long as the spell is in effect it is, you know, in effect. Afterwards then the victim is free to do as they want. Until then the charmer is a trusted close friend and nothing anyone says will change that.
Thank you for not fireballing me oh great and powerful one!
Low-level charm effects are, on the face of it, pretty damn strong. When low-level play is dominated by combat encounters, it may go underexplored, and at high levels the save DC on low-level spells stands against them, but Charm Person is a pretty potent tool for social encounters and can outperform Suggestion or even Dominate under a range of conditions.
As for seeing it as a threat and counter-spelling, I'd say the wizard attempts to counter, fails his counterspell, fails his will save (this is a wizard on a bad day, obviously), sees the spell as a threat. Then all of a sudden he doesn't get why he was worried - his new B.F.F. was just in a hurry.
"I don't care. Maybe I should care, but I don't."
(later)
"Hello, Mr Watchman? I want to report a crime ..."/"Waaaghh!" as appropriate.
As for seeing it as a threat and counter-spelling, I'd say the wizard attempts to counter, fails his counterspell, fails his will save (this is a wizard on a bad day, obviously), sees the spell as a threat. Then all of a sudden he doesn't get why he was worried - his new B.F.F. was just in a hurry.
Heh, yeah that's a pretty bad day for the wizard alright =P
I feel like that exact circumstance could go either way (the charm could fail if the GM or party feels it appropriate), but that's a pretty specific situation ... one that I've never seen before anyway.
As far as the situation the OP gave, it seems like this forum has a reached a pretty clear consensus. Do what you will... Interesting question though =)
A more interesting question is, what if it were you? What if today, IRL, you found out that your best friend has been using hypnosis on you (comic book hypnosis that really works) to make you do things that you would never do for him without the hypnosis? What would you do?
Confront him? Probably
Break the friendship? Probably
Punch him in the face? Possibly (I'm not advocating violence; DO NOT punch people)
Report the crime? Possibly
Allow him to continue abusing your imaginary friendship? Definitely not
Yeah, yeah, Charm Person is MAGIC! It transcends mere logic.
But Charm Person essentially says it makes you the victim's trusted friend. It does not let you control them. This is explicitly stated.*
So, magic or no magic, if I find out my trusted friend is a scheming d-bag who has been using mind control (hypnosis or Charm Person), forcing me to do things I shouldn't want to do, well, at the very very least, that guy isn't my trusted friend anymore.
*Some people argue this. Vehemently. Let's not argue it here in this thread - for those who want to fight about it, try this somewhat recent thread instead.
Let me rephrase the originaal question:
What does someone who is under the influence of FOX News do when they find out they are under the influence of FOX News?
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One of my favorite bard tricks is to use charm person to create an artificially Friendly disposition, and then use Diplomacy to more easily adjust the NPC's actual disposition.
Because the diplomacy rules note that you can adjust a disposition by more than one step for every 5 points you beat the DC by, and the DC to use Diplomacy on a Friendly character is 10, it can be pretty easy to bring the NPC's actual disposition from something unfavorable all the way to Helpful.
Then you can just dismiss the charm.
Even if someone catches it, they're already permanently friendly. They might be mad for a bit when they find out, but that's pretty easy to soothe over.
Hey! Did you charm me?
Oh, yeah, sorry about that. I really needed your help and didn't have a lot of time. You can be pretty standoffish at first, you know?
Yeah, that's true. I'm still kinda ticked off at you for it.
Understandable. How about I buy you a beer and you can tell me what an a*+!@$% I am?
You had me at beer.
And if you can Charm someone, then your Suggestions seem more reasonable. Comboing multiple kinds of influence - the carrot, the stick, and the mystic whammy - can have very impressive results with relatively low-level tricks.
Combo Suggestion and Memory Lapse - someone obeys your directive yet is unable to consciously recall what it was or that they were compelled to do it by another. Just for fun examples.
As for IRL - that discussion is a dark path, full of degrees of interpretation and some pretty messed up real issues. No comment.
HOWEVER/In the text for Charm Person it says:
Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell.
This is the charm's weak point. Instead of dispelling it tell the charmed one that you are the caster's buddy, servant, whatever (use bluff to back it up) then, when you are an "apparent ally" threaten the charmed one... the spell breaks.
Sow Thought is another good one to pair with Charm or Memory Lapse.
Given enough time with a subject, layers of Sown Thoughts and Diplomacy could be used to completely re-write someone's personality.
Ethically, this is extremely sticky. Don't do it around your local paladin unless you can convince them it is a way to reform them of psychosis or something.
This is the charm's weak point. Instead of dispelling it tell the charmed one that you are the caster's buddy, servant, whatever (use bluff to back it up) then, when you are an "apparent ally" threaten the charmed one... the spell breaks.
I'd say that is a good example of reading the rules too literally instead of trying to understand what it is they're trying to represent.
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Charmed person acts like a normal person in all aspects, but it simply favors the caster that charmed him as a trusted friend. I would probably treat entire situation as regular social encounter which would include a Diplomacy check to convince such individual but in general, PCs should have a chance of convincing him.
Adam
This is the charm's weak point. Instead of dispelling it tell the charmed one that you are the caster's buddy, servant, whatever (use bluff to back it up) then, when you are an "apparent ally" threaten the charmed one... the spell breaks.I'd say that is a good example of reading the rules too literally instead of trying to understand what it is they're trying to represent.
Why? Who decides who counts as an apparent ally? I would say the charmed one. So if the charmed one thinks you are an ally and you threaten him the charm breaks.
Why? Who decides who counts as an apparent ally?
The goal of the "allies" clause is to prevent a spellcaster from charming an individual and then having his allies attack the victim and the victim not being able to attack the spellcaster back.
The word "apparent" in the description of the spell is meant to place a limitation on the word "allies," not to add additional allies that are not actually allies.
For example, Bob casts charm person on Suzie, Suzie fails her save. Bob's ally Joe is a ways away, hidden, and fires an arrow at Suzie. The charm spell doesn't break because Suzie has no idea that Bob and Joe are actually allies.