Need Help! Gunslinger damage is insane.


Homebrew and House Rules

51 to 100 of 229 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>

Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
DR, DR shuts down Gunslingers fast

Not when they have Clustered Shot


Jodokai wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
DR, DR shuts down Gunslingers fast
Not when they have Clustered Shot

This. Otherwise I wouldn't really have this issue, though the problem of enemies using guns would still exist since PCs usually don't have access to the same level of DR as monsters (at least consistently).

Dark Archive

CWheezy wrote:
Helcack wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Helcack wrote:
The fix I use is making them work like guns in real life. If mud gets in them or water then they do not work,
What if he uses a gun that isn't garbage like an AK
I was going to reply to this with information, but I realized that this can't be serious. Anyway OP just add water to his black powder once in a while through spellcasters and you're fine. There are even spells that specifically target guns to make them stop working.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENn8UG4SDl4

I know that AK's can withstand such things, the reason I thought it couldn't be serious is that you must know there aren't AK's in Pathfinder and if you read the OP's posts you'd know the character in question is a sniper. Also in reply to Cyrad I can understand your point of view, and I realized that actually other spells that target weapons are better when they target guns as to use them you have to touch the metal bits(at least most of the time). Also ranged disarm spells/abilities are pretty good against gunslingers(like in RDR when you duelled somebody and shot the gun out of their hands)

Liberty's Edge

How does he fire off those clustered shots, and what type of gun is he using. Firing a lot of shots really quickly should be nearly impossible with most firearms, save revolvers, and automatics(which should only exist in certain sessions). The rifle is either going to be bolt action or repeater, one which prevents rapid reload by needing a bolt slide, and the other which needs a lever to clear the chamber.

As for the revolver, it works Fanning the hammer, which means any long term use of clustered shots is going to break that gun, as well as being only effective at extremely close range(due to recoil causing the shots to spread, maybe a consecutive, cumulative -2 penalty to hit), and even then, unless they are custom made, which they won't be unless they have all the right tools it takes about a while to reload those things with cartridges(those special metal bullets, made for those guns), so his ball bearing bullets and black powder isn't going to do anything to help load that, and rapid reloading should force some checks to not drop bullets with sweaty hands. Automatics are going to jam more easily if a lot of bullets are fired very quickly, and only take bullets from a magazine or clip, which don't exist in Golorian at the moment.

Also gun maintenance. Since you are the Gm, unless the player has been telling you he has been maintaining his guns, it seems like a perfect opertunities to say that the gun sticks and locks up, either from excessive use or poor maintenance, jamming and needing a good check to fix it. If he has been really getting to you, have it do this at the worst possible time, like when a big, monsterous creature or dangerous character is going to hit him with something very nasty. And remember that fire and black powder go violently together, so throw some fire at the player and then give him a close up view of a powder box/powder horn going out with a bang. And feel free to ignite any flammable objects on the characters person. Or dunk him, and see if that gun has the ability fire underwater. Unless it has the magical ability to (yes this is a thing), the gun won't work at all.


I hate to repeat what others have said; however changing a lot of what the guns do does not make sense. You will be instituting house rules to cover for something that is OPed. You will also still be changing his character in a substantial way that will impede how he is played. This may impact the players continued involvement with that class. Especially if he feels that you are making changes to the game that are directed at him.

You would be better served to just admit that it was a mistake to allow advanced firearms. That 1 change will reduce the amount of damage he does without changing most of the abilities.

I play a Musket Master Gunslinger and will admit that the misfire chance of 20% (10% musket + 10% alchemical cartridge) has stopped most of my attacks. I do not have any feat that reduces the misfire chance as of yet.

This will also means he misses more. High BAB vrs low Touch AC: he will still miss when he misfires.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Minos Judge wrote:

I hate to repeat what others have said; however changing a lot of what the guns do does not make sense. You will be instituting house rules to cover for something that is OPed. You will also still be changing his character in a substantial way that will impede how he is played. This may impact the players continued involvement with that class. Especially if he feels that you are making changes to the game that are directed at him.

You would be better served to just admit that it was a mistake to allow advanced firearms. That 1 change will reduce the amount of damage he does without changing most of the abilities.

I play a Musket Master Gunslinger and will admit that the misfire chance of 20% (10% musket + 10% alchemical cartridge) has stopped most of my attacks. I do not have any feat that reduces the misfire chance as of yet.

This will also means he misses more. High BAB vrs low Touch AC: he will still miss when he misfires.

It was a mistake to give him a rifle, but both the general (and OP's) problem with them extends to their broken touch attack mechanic.

I honestly just recommend discussing it with the player. The reason I implemented my houserules in the first place was because my player got really sick of misfires. He felt like it made his character too binary -- either he's a god or he's useless. So, I analyzed the problem, came up with a solution, and presented it as a deal. I take away touch attacks and in exchange, I make misfires mostly a non-factor and buff the gunslinger in other ways. He never regretted it.

Shadow Lodge

The problems started when you allowed him advanced firearms. If you have problems with touch attack mechanics have him play a Bolt Ace instead and refluff crossbows to be guns, problem solved


Cyrad wrote:

It was a mistake to give him a rifle, but both the general (and OP's) problem with them extends to their broken touch attack mechanic.

I honestly just recommend discussing it with the player. The reason I implemented my houserules in the first place was because my player got really sick of misfires. He felt like it made his character too binary -- either he's a god or he's useless. So, I analyzed the problem, came up with a solution, and presented it as a deal. I take away touch attacks and in exchange, I make misfires mostly a non-factor and buff the gunslinger in other ways. He never regretted it.

There are multiple problems that I see arising. One problem is how do you address the Touch Attack abilities of other classes? The Alchemist has touch attack bombs/splash weapons, also rays for wizards and sorcerers.

How do you handle the deeds? Did you just replace the non-relevant ones or did you just ignore them?

I would also have to ask how it is mechanically different from a mis-fire to just missing?

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Minos Judge wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

It was a mistake to give him a rifle, but both the general (and OP's) problem with them extends to their broken touch attack mechanic.

I honestly just recommend discussing it with the player. The reason I implemented my houserules in the first place was because my player got really sick of misfires. He felt like it made his character too binary -- either he's a god or he's useless. So, I analyzed the problem, came up with a solution, and presented it as a deal. I take away touch attacks and in exchange, I make misfires mostly a non-factor and buff the gunslinger in other ways. He never regretted it.

There are multiple problems that I see arising. One problem is how do you address the Touch Attack abilities of other classes? The Alchemist has touch attack bombs/splash weapons, also rays for wizards and sorcerers.

How do you handle the deeds? Did you just replace the non-relevant ones or did you just ignore them?

I would also have to ask how it is mechanically different from a mis-fire to just missing?

My house rules only change touch attacks for firearms. However, my analysis of them did lead me to change an ability of one of my homebrew classes so it uses a normal ranged attack.

Touch attacks aren't as problematic for full spellcasters because they were specifically designed for them. As I explain in more detail in my blog article, touch attacks were designed so wizards could hit armored targets with spells at higher levels. They're a band-aid for a flaw in the base attack bonus system. The limited use of spells and alchemist bombs keep those touch attacks in check. Difficulty in doing iterative attacks is also a major balancing factor. However, Ultimate Combat firearms give a mechanic designed for 1/2 BAB classes to a full BAB martial incentivized to min-max Dexterity.

My house rules do replace a few deeds and rework others. For example, quick clear got replaced with an ability that works like the swashbuckler's derring-do. Dead shot grants Vital Strike.

Misfires are critical failure mechanics driven into the game. If a misfire happens, the gun breaks. A gunslinger has to waste a move action and a grit point to undo it. If it happens on a full-attack, then you're just screwed for two rounds. It's an unfun game mechanic meant as a clutch to balance the broken firearm touch attacks.


Advanced firearms on their aren't that much better. The rifle's range increases to 80' and you reduce misfire by one and load times by 1 step. All of that doesn't mean a hill 'o' beans after a few levels. Reloads become free actions, and misfires become 0. The real cause is touch attacks. You've given a full BAB character who can tank STR and max DEX access to touch attacks. Casters are, at most 3/4 BAB and rarely if ever take precise shot, so are usually -4 to -8 to their attacks. Not to mention DEX is not their primary stat.

Something I was thinking about, if you want to start with a minor change, and I'm not sure this will be enough, but it's a place to start. Deadly Aim says it doesn't work with Touch Attacks. Now Paizo has FAQ'ed that away for gunslingers, but remove that FAQ and see what happens. If the gunslinger is in touch range, he can't use Deadly Aim, if he's out of touch range he can. See if that has enough of an effect.

Silver Crusade

Removing the misfire was a mistake.
(there is even a solution for it, lucky)

Shadow Lodge

at this pot i think it would be a good idea to see the build and to know what level we are talking about


Cyrad wrote:

My house rules only change touch attacks for firearms. However, my analysis of them did lead me to change an ability of one of my homebrew classes so it uses a normal ranged attack.

Touch attacks aren't as problematic for full spellcasters because they were specifically designed for them. As I explain in more detail in my blog article, touch attacks were designed so wizards could hit armored targets with spells at higher levels. They're a band-aid for a flaw in the base attack bonus system. The limited use of spells and alchemist bombs keep those touch attacks in check. Difficulty in doing iterative attacks is also a major balancing factor. However, Ultimate Combat firearms give a mechanic designed for 1/2 BAB classes to a full BAB martial incentivized to min-max Dexterity.

My house rules do replace a few deeds and rework others. For example, quick clear got replaced with an...

I mostly play PFS so my answers will be slightly biased. I have rarely run out of spells or bombs. Usually the fights last only a couple of rounds and it is very hard to use up all of your resources.

This reply cut off some of your answer.

Cyrad wrote:
Misfires are critical failure mechanics driven into the game. If a misfire happens, the gun breaks. A gunslinger has to waste a move action and a grit point to undo it. If it happens on a full-attack, then you're just screwed for two rounds. It's an unfun game mechanic meant as a clutch to balance the broken firearm touch attacks.

A misfire does not break the gun. It takes 2 misfires to break a weapon. If you use the quick-clear grit action it is cleared as a Standard or a Move action if you spend the grit point.

It also should appeal to all the people who want to apply "real world" to the game. I consider it an approach to handle the fouling of the weapon from poor black-powder, not a mechanic forced into the game.

The sense I get from talking to people is that it is the full BAB with touch attack that causes some problems. Why not place it at 1/2 BAB? This would still be a minimum change vrs. re-working a lot of the class. I used that feature to take other feats then the standard Point Blank and precise shot. This allows me to be more variable then standard range characters. If you modify that then it is just an archer with more expensive arrows and shorter range.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

if we want to apply real world logic to guns, they shouldn't be reloading them in a few seconds...

and 1/2 BAB gives them a d6 for HD, not very gritty of pa person anymore. :P


Bandw2 wrote:

if we want to apply real world logic to guns, they shouldn't be reloading them in a few seconds...

and 1/2 BAB gives them a d6 for HD, not very gritty of pa person anymore. :P

I never apply real world logic to a game, where dragons can fly. Other people do so I was trying to appease to them.

The HD argument I was ignoring; because the other solutions were to re-work most of the class. I was trying to offer an easier solution then that. Also this is for house rules, so you can ignore certain constraints. Plus I feel that this is what they should have done, and not feel constrained to keep things the way they are because that is how it has always done.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I'd prefer if they made guns take forever to reload but do a lot of damage, maybe even based on character level. guns were the first people that largely didn't require skill so 1d6 damage per 2 HD would be interesting.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Minos Judge wrote:
I mostly play PFS so my answers will be slightly biased. I have rarely run out of spells or bombs. Usually the fights last only a couple of rounds and it is very hard to use up all of your resources.

Yeah, I rarely run out of resources in PFS games, too. They're usually fairly short. But even so, the limited resource discourages you from constantly using them every round.

Minos Judge wrote:
A misfire does not break the gun. It takes 2 misfires to break a weapon. If you use the quick-clear grit action it is cleared as a Standard or a Move action if you spend the grit point.

Broken =/= destroyed. The gun breaks if it misfires. It becomes destroyed if it misfires while broken. If you can't use quick clear on the same round you full-attack and have to reload the gun again afterward. So if you misfire, you basically lose one or two turns. And since (as you said) most encounters last 2-4 rounds, that's nearly the whole fight.

Minos Judge wrote:
It also should appeal to all the people who want to apply "real world" to the game. I consider it an approach to handle the fouling of the weapon from poor black-powder, not a mechanic forced into the game.

The "realism" argument is somewhat of a fallacy because

1) PF is a fantasy game. Most players don't play it for realism.
2) Many things aren't realistic in Pathfinder. Bugs can breathe. Dragons can fly despite being ridiculously heavy. People can survive falling 100 feet. The game doesn't bother with these "real" facts because it's not fun. Misfires are not fun. So why should misfires be in the game?
3) The firearm rules aren't realistic anyway. The rules assume that a reconnaissance period flintlock pistol has significantly more penetrating power than a deadly arrow shot by an expert archer. And that tough hide offers no protection from musket balls. In reality, penetrating power was not an advantage flintlock firearms had over bows.
4) Bows, crossbows, and slings don't break on a natural 1. Why should firearms? Those weapons are harder to use than firearms and have more complicated physics and moving parts.

Minos Judge wrote:
The sense I get from talking to people is that it is the full BAB with touch attack that causes some problems. Why not place it at 1/2 BAB? This would still be a minimum change vrs. re-working a lot of the class. I used that feature to take other feats then the standard Point Blank and precise shot. This allows me to be more variable then standard range characters. If you modify that then it is just an archer with more expensive arrows and shorter range.

Touch attacks are the core problem. They're the broken mechanic. Additionally, it makes sense for the gunslinger to be a full BAB martial. It doesn't make sense for a flintlock gun to completely negate all forms of armor. I'm not convinced that a musket ball has significantly more penetrating power than a bodkin point arrowhead shot by Legolas.

Honestly, the only reason I did not scrap Ultimate Combat's firearm rules entirely was because there exists many archetypes and content that rely on them. I wanted my houserules to still be compatible.


Rynjin wrote:

Since we're here in the Homebrew forum, I would consider discussing with the player tweaking Firearms.

Firearms are an odd duck...they're basically useless in the hands of a non-Gunslinger (basically being crossbows with really expensive ammo, which are really expensive themselves, and sometimes blow up...and crossbows suck already), but fairly devastating in the hands of one. Though, really, no moreso than a bow. There are quite a few bow builds out there that make a Gunslinger weep at the damage they can put out. It's more a psychological thing since Gunslingers work on the inverse of normal AC rules: AC gets LOWER for them as they level, not higher.

Consider changing firearms like this:

-They no longer attack Touch AC.
-They no longer have a Misfire chance.
-Replace the bit in Gun Training about Misfire with something else appropriate (a bonus to attack rolls like Weapon Training, perhaps)
-Implement the "Guns Everywhere" rules in regards to your Gunslinger (everything costs 10% of the listed price).

This puts them roughly on par with crossbows as-is, barring his Gun Training, which is the real clincher. If you have a problem there, you'd have an issue with any archer.

I personally would also add the following to guns and crossbows alike:

-They reload as a Free action. Just like bows do. They have no significant advantage over bows, so why do they need a Feat just to catch up?

This should sound like a fair trade-off to him. He gets an extra Feat, basically, but can no longer attack Touch AC (not really an issue given he's a Full BaB character, and his 4000 gold gun doesn't have a chance of blowing up when he rolls a 1.

I was going to come here and suggest basically everything Rynjin just did. So yeah...do what he said.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Bandw2 wrote:
guns were the first people

I clicked edit right when the time ran out >_> this typo will haunt me for weeks.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Claxon wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Since we're here in the Homebrew forum, I would consider discussing with the player tweaking Firearms.

Firearms are an odd duck...they're basically useless in the hands of a non-Gunslinger (basically being crossbows with really expensive ammo, which are really expensive themselves, and sometimes blow up...and crossbows suck already), but fairly devastating in the hands of one. Though, really, no moreso than a bow. There are quite a few bow builds out there that make a Gunslinger weep at the damage they can put out. It's more a psychological thing since Gunslingers work on the inverse of normal AC rules: AC gets LOWER for them as they level, not higher.

Consider changing firearms like this:

-They no longer attack Touch AC.
-They no longer have a Misfire chance.
-Replace the bit in Gun Training about Misfire with something else appropriate (a bonus to attack rolls like Weapon Training, perhaps)
-Implement the "Guns Everywhere" rules in regards to your Gunslinger (everything costs 10% of the listed price).

This puts them roughly on par with crossbows as-is, barring his Gun Training, which is the real clincher. If you have a problem there, you'd have an issue with any archer.

I personally would also add the following to guns and crossbows alike:

-They reload as a Free action. Just like bows do. They have no significant advantage over bows, so why do they need a Feat just to catch up?

This should sound like a fair trade-off to him. He gets an extra Feat, basically, but can no longer attack Touch AC (not really an issue given he's a Full BaB character, and his 4000 gold gun doesn't have a chance of blowing up when he rolls a 1.

I was going to come here and suggest basically everything Rynjin just did. So yeah...do what he said.

Yeah, this is basically what my houserules do in a nutshell, except I kept the reloading times and made Dex-to-damage a feature of the weapon instead of a gunslinger-only ability.


OK so what I see . I may be missing something. The player is unloading his revolver AS A FULL ROUND ACTION on the first round, doing massive damage. Then he can either reload a single shot as a swift action and fire that single shot the next round. OR take another full round action to reload the revolver. Allowing him to do his massive damage on the 3rd round.

The simplest solution is keep ammo both expensive and scarce. As it stands each shot is running 26 gp (15gp Metal Cartridge, 1gp for the bullet and 10gp for the black powder)so every time he unloads this damage its costing him 156 gp.

Put them out of town where he can't resupply and watch his ammo supply drop, he will use his clustered shot attack less when he doesn't have an unlimited supply of bullets. When he counters by carrying massive amounts of bullets let the weight play a factor

100 bullets = 1 keg of powder, 100 Metal Cartridges and 100 bullets

We know a powder keg weighs 5lbs, and 30 bullets are 1/2 lb. They state cartridges are negligible individually, so its a valid argument that to say 100 bullets WITH cartridges is 2 lbs. Then he needs a powder horn to accurately measure and pour the powder into the cartridges (2lbs)Another 2lbs for the gunsmith kit to make bullets and to care for his revolver.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Cyrad wrote:
In essence, the firearms rules took a broken mechanic designed to help wizards bypass high ACs and gave it to a ranged fighting class

If you're actually upset that they took something from the already-omnipotent wizard and gave it to a lowly martial class (under more limited circumstances, to boot), then you and I are definitely not playing the same game.


[QUOTth Gersen"]

Cyrad wrote:
In essence, the firearms rules took a broken mechanic designed to help wizards bypass high ACs and gave it to a ranged fighting class
If you're actually upset that they took something from the already-omnipotent wizard and gave it to a lowly martial class (under more limited circumstances, to boot), then you and I are definitely not playing the same game.

Ever see that animated movie, 'Wizards'? That ending. I've been okay with firearm rules because I feel like technology should be the equalizer in the mundane vs magic debate but we always want to nerf it.


DeathmatchFM wrote:
The simple reason is that be wanted a mysterious wanderer with a cool sniper rifle, and I was (and still am) down with the concept of that. I'm also not sure at this point I can "safely" remove advanced firearms since he's been using the same gun the whole game, and I have established that while rare they do exist.

then he should have had a musket

also fire arms are not as broken as a lot of people seem to think, it has it ups and downs unlike spell casting which by far is the most broken thing in the game(I kid)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
In essence, the firearms rules took a broken mechanic designed to help wizards bypass high ACs and gave it to a ranged fighting class
If you're actually upset that they took something from the already-omnipotent wizard and gave it to a lowly martial class (under more limited circumstances, to boot), then you and I are definitely not playing the same game.

Given the original post context of a character upsetting game balance, it doesn't sound like sharing this mechanic improved the game for anyone.

"As broken as a wizard" is not a desirable goal for balancing the game.


Fergie wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
In essence, the firearms rules took a broken mechanic designed to help wizards bypass high ACs and gave it to a ranged fighting class
If you're actually upset that they took something from the already-omnipotent wizard and gave it to a lowly martial class (under more limited circumstances, to boot), then you and I are definitely not playing the same game.

Given the original post context of a character upsetting game balance, it doesn't sound like sharing this mechanic improved the game for anyone.

"As broken as a wizard" is not a desirable goal for balancing the game.

But if everything is overpowered then nothing is?

How to beat high level wizards.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
In essence, the firearms rules took a broken mechanic designed to help wizards bypass high ACs and gave it to a ranged fighting class
If you're actually upset that they took something from the already-omnipotent wizard and gave it to a lowly martial class (under more limited circumstances, to boot), then you and I are definitely not playing the same game.

Nah, I just don't share your binary game design sense.

I don't believe in the notion that any buff to the fighter, regardless of design quality, makes a better game. As Fergie pointed out, this obviously made the game miserable for the OP and many others. Also, I took away touch attacks from firearms so I could take away misfires, a stupid fumble mechanic that made it frustrating for one of my players. I thought that you would appreciate that effort, but apparently taking my comment out of context to make a slight against me over "fighter versus wizard" seemed more relevant to your interests.


How did he get an advanced firearm? Isnt that the main cuse of the issue here?

Gunslingers get exponentially more powerful everytime they gain access to a new method to bypass reloading. Multiple guns, quickdraw, weapon cords, many many magical items, advanced firearms, double guns. Advanced firearms especially are crazy.

One time I played a homebrew alchemist that got firearm profiency, thats essentially the gist of the archertype. With just double pistols (a whole 8 of them) I made everyone else look like a chump when it came to dealing damage.

.

One way to deal with this is to modify your encounter design. Try flooding the team with weak foes before you reveal the big bads, undead minions are especially good for this. By the time the real bad guy finally becomes a viable target the gunslinger will have expended a lot of ammo and must reload at some point during the fight. In other words this problem can be dealt with by adding more expendable HP to your fights.


Cyrad wrote:
Also, I took away touch attacks from firearms so I could take away misfires, a stupid fumble mechanic that made it frustrating for one of my players.

I do share your dislike of fumble mechanics, so, yes, we're definitely seeing eye to eye there. I just don't see touch attacks as being unbalancing in play. If you do, again, we're playing differently (or, slightly more hyperbolically, "not the same game"). Which is OK.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Also, I took away touch attacks from firearms so I could take away misfires, a stupid fumble mechanic that made it frustrating for one of my players.
I do share your dislike of fumble mechanics, so, yes, we're definitely seeing eye to eye there. I just don't see touch attacks as being unbalancing in play. If you do, again, we're playing differently (or, slightly more hyperbolically, "not the same game"). Which is OK.

Touch attacks are a broken game mechanic. There is a difference between broken and overpowered/underpowered, though they can overlap. A broken mechanic either doesn't work as intended or screws with the game on a fundamental level. An overpowered/underpowered mechanic simply has too much power or too little power.

Touch attacks are a broken mechanic. As I explain in more detail in this article, the math behind them falls apart because the average touch AC decreases with CR instead of increase like normal AC. This makes them almost guaranteed hits. And firearms put iterative touch attacks on a class that already excels at hitting high armored targets.

Plus, touch attacks are a punch in the face for an armored fighter.


It's a minor issue in the kinds of games I tend to be involved in, because by the time those effects begin to show, there are very few situations that can be resolved by simply standing nearby and shooting. If the PCs meet an opponent in a scenario where that is possible (or, better yet, if they themselves engineer that scenario), then I'm perfectly happy with them mowing down the baddie in a hail of lead.

YMMV.


Cyrad wrote:
Plus, touch attacks are a punch in the face for an armored fighter.

Which to me is why a gunfighter belongs in a game where armored fighter is something from the distant past. Comparing what the gunslinger gets when in contrast to everything else in the game - it appears unbalancing, and why I don't allow gunslingers in a standard PF fantasy setting. However, using an Old West type setting where everybody, even some of the monsters are wielding firearms - all is fair.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

saw title
expected to see advanced firearms
was not disappointed


tsuruki wrote:

How did he get an advanced firearm? Isnt that the main cuse of the issue here?

Gunslingers get exponentially more powerful everytime they gain access to a new method to bypass reloading. Multiple guns, quickdraw, weapon cords, many many magical items, advanced firearms, double guns. Advanced firearms especially are crazy.

One time I played a homebrew alchemist that got firearm profiency, thats essentially the gist of the archertype. With just double pistols (a whole 8 of them) I made everyone else look like a chump when it came to dealing damage.

.

One way to deal with this is to modify your encounter design. Try flooding the team with weak foes before you reveal the big bads, undead minions are especially good for this. By the time the real bad guy finally becomes a viable target the gunslinger will have expended a lot of ammo and must reload at some point during the fight. In other words this problem can be dealt with by adding more expendable HP to your fights.

Yes that is exactly the problem. However they would rather re-work a class then deal with the easy solutions.

The other problem is that they do not like the designed flaws for the class. So they have basically made Gunslingers a short range archer.


I ran the RotR AP with 2 gunslingers in the party, a pistolero and musket master. Both of them were consistent thorns in my side with dealing massive amounts of damage. Best advice I can give is mostly whats already been given -- use spells, terrain, mooks, combat expertise, etc. I tried using NPC gunslingers against the party with some success as well. Fight fire with fire; it's fun to see the look on the gunslingers face when he gets shot for first time.


Bunch of Grapes wrote:
I tried using NPC gunslingers against the party with some success as well. Fight fire with fire; it's fun to see the look on the gunslingers face when he gets shot for first time.

As an aside, I designed a magus archetype called the Shootist for my intended Old West setting that has some Matrix-like effects for abilities, like swerving bullets coming at you so they'll miss, and higher level actually stopping a bullet in midair and sending it back to the shooter. Imagine the looks on the face of a gunslinger witnessing that? As I stated, if everyone has a revolver or a rifle, the gunslinger doesn't seem all that unbalanced anymore.

Even the native Americans in my setting use firearms and not archery. Consider that at the Little Big Horn at Custer's Last Stand, the US Army was using single shot rifles, and the natives were using Springfield repeating carbines - in that engagement, not only were there far more natives than US cavalry, the natives were better armed.


gamer-printer wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Plus, touch attacks are a punch in the face for an armored fighter.
Which to me is why a gunfighter belongs in a game where armored fighter is something from the distant past. Comparing what the gunslinger gets when in contrast to everything else in the game - it appears unbalancing, and why I don't allow gunslingers in a standard PF fantasy setting. However, using an Old West type setting where everybody, even some of the monsters are wielding firearms - all is fair.

I love me some Pathfinder Future and Pathfinder 1950's, and Steamfinder. In these games guns are not only advanced but rampantly common and sometimes are lasers, but people still wanted to run some 'dude with a sword. Digging through third party stuff and the paizo books this has been the new status quo:

Combat Expertise is common on anyone with the BAB and INT to abuse it, particularly if you're using firearms. I've seen situations with two Gunslingers shooting at point blank range and not hitting each other because of this. We commented that what they were really doing was that Gunkata.

Tripod Machine has a book with a feat that causes your touch AC to go up with BAB.

Armor got different. Whenever there's a modern setting product there is some kind of armor that avoids touch attacks from firearms. That plus the armor that deflects beam attacks from the Technology Guide is popular. I myself went with a Fighter who's only protection was a leather jacket and could avoid getting hit.

I topped using big dumb buff monsters. When they have energy resistance and/or DR they get pretty tough to beat with firearms so Clustered Shot got popular for a bit so big monsters just don't work at late levels. I think this is rightfully so, so monstrous threats are either equipped with the same kind of defensive tech the PCs get or are fast enough to try to disrupt the PCs from getting full attacks.

As I said before, I like that guns change the dynamic of the game. Once advanced firearms come in the picture this is no longer a knife fight so you should plan accordingly. Even when I didn't have access to third party stuff as long as I know guns are a thing in the setting I was generally fine because I built assuming that guns were a thing.


Malwing wrote:
I love me some Pathfinder Future and Pathfinder 1950's, and Steamfinder. In these games guns are not only advanced but rampantly common and sometimes are lasers, but people still wanted to run some 'dude with a sword. Digging through third party stuff and the paizo books this has been the new status quo

Cavalry swords would still be a thing, in my Old West setting. I've even designed an evil traveling physician that uses hypodermic needles as his preferred Sneak Attack weapons delivering toxins, contagions and eldritch brews. So there's still some poking pointy things in your opponent in the setting, though guns are the primary weapons used.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
gamer-printer wrote:
Malwing wrote:
I love me some Pathfinder Future and Pathfinder 1950's, and Steamfinder. In these games guns are not only advanced but rampantly common and sometimes are lasers, but people still wanted to run some 'dude with a sword. Digging through third party stuff and the paizo books this has been the new status quo
Cavalry swords would still be a thing, in my Old West setting. I've even designed an evil traveling physician that uses hypodermic needles as his preferred Sneak Attack weapons delivering toxins, contagions and eldritch brews. So there's still some poking pointy things in your opponent in the setting, though guns are the primary weapons used.

Even with a reasonable explanation I find the desire to use some old tactics legit for reasons of flavor. If you're in the future you may want some kind of lightsaber or gravity hammer. In an Weird West setting you'd want to have an oversized bayonet.

Despite liking the gun rules as is I do really like that Cyrad's house rules make guns add Dex to damage immediately. It keeps guns in the realm of powerful as opposed to just making them into glorified crossbows, it makes sense and doesn't add any kind of extra number checking that I feel other gun fixes make you do.


Well since I'm publishing a setting intended for PF use, I don't want to reinvent the gun rules (and don't think its needed). While I can agree there might be many ways to better represent firearms - the existing ones work in the right setting context.


To be fair I think a large part of the OP's issue is that they aren't interested in hearing much more than "gunslingers are OP/broken" sadly. The fact that comparable builds are met with "I don't have one in my game (so it isn't an issue), but this is" speaks volumes about attitude. They are admittedly inexperienced (by their own statement) and don't want to put in the work of making the encounters challenging despite allowing the class and equipment. And don't seem to want to talk to the player either, looking for other rules to implement rather then own up and find an in-house resolution for their table.

I mean kudos for attempting to run, it takes a certain type of person to GM, and an even more particular person to enjoy it and do it well. But it really sounds like they don't want to do the job they "signed up" for and are looking for alternative ways to deal with the issue, which isn't solely a rules/mechanic problem.


Wow Skylancer4, that seems really not helpful or constructive. And telling someone they aren't cut out to GM because they are asking for help with a class that has known issues is kind of messed up.

Perhaps offering suggestions to improve their game would be more helpful.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

It is constructive criticism. Harsh, maybe, but helpful if you can get past that. Being a GM requires significantly more time and effort than playing. As well as familiarity and knowledge of the rules.

When you come to the boards and say "I'm having a problem" and then get the same 3-4 responses, and your replies amount to, I do want to do that, it isn't a problem because it isn't in my game right now, and completely ignoring what is said because you don't want that to be the answer... There is a larger problem. And it isn't the class.

The reality is, if you don't have time to read and understand the rules that you are allowing into the game that you a running, the game isn't going to go well. Looking for some "other" ways to "fix" the issue, by ignoring suggestions and easy fixes provided because you don't want to hear them...

I didn't imply they were unable to GM, I made the statement that GM'ing requires time and effort to do successfully and well. If the OP can't put in the effort or time, they can only expect more issues.


I'm a bit surprised at all the "Yeah, Advanced firearms are the problem" comments.

The only differences between Advanced and Early Firearms are:

-The Advanced ones can attack Touch AC at up to five range increments (so you can attack Touch AC an extra 10% of the time when you can't maneuver into Point Blank range)

-The Advanced ones reload faster (...Good. The reload times suck for no good reason.).

-Advanced Firearms don't f+@%ing explode (Which means that yet again, they are better designed, not more broken).

-Advanced Firearms sometimes have a larger ammo capacity (again largely irrelevant since you either reload as a Free or you don't play a Gunslinger)

-Advanced Firearms are twice as expensive, or more.

And, here's the big one:

-There's no Double Barreled Pistol that gives every Early Firearm user double the attacks per round for freeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Advanced Firearms are only the problem if you have no idea what the problem is. Everything problematic about Advanced Firearms is problematic with Early Firearms too...but Advanced ones are less annoying to use.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Rynjin wrote:
Advanced Firearms are only the problem if you have no idea what the problem is. Everything problematic about Advanced Firearms is problematic with Early Firearms too...but Advanced ones are less annoying to use.

Early firearms are annoying in order help compensate for the touch attacks. Taking away nearly all of the drawbacks is a really big deal, especially the ability to touch attack beyond 1st increment. When you let a broken mechanic go unhobbled, obviously you're going to have more problems with them.


If you are having this much trouble with guns/gunslingers just do not allow them.

My Dm does this and it works just fine.


1) Make sure he is PAYING for ammo, it isn't cheap
2) Impose a limit on the brass casings. You can't reload them more than a few times before they give out, I mean, these things are containing directed EXPLOSIONS! Say, four times...
3) Control availability of ammo/components when shopping for them.

None of these are rules changes, but if you limit his available ammo, he might ration it better rather than firing off as many shots as he can as quickly as he can.

One well placed shot, rather than a hail of bullets.

Also, don't be afraid to use the anti-gun specific spells, just cause he doesn't like them doesn't mean you can't use them.

If he is overspecialized and doesn't carry a backup weapon, that's his problem, not yours.


The rules for firearms explicitly say that the game is balanced for Early Firearms rules and Advanced Firearms rules are optional and overpowered.

One of my favourite characters is a gunslinger and I'm always a bit disappointed by suggested rules changes that just turn guns into a skin for crossbows.

Guns have unique advantages and unique disadvantages. They're great flavor and are a pretty distinct form of archer. Diversity is good right?

Advanced Firearms getting rid of the unique disadvantages is obviously not good for the standard balance of the things.

In any case alchemists target touch AC all the time and nobody complains about them.

Just my scattered stream of thoughts on the issue.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Azih wrote:

The rules for firearms explicitly say that the game is balanced for Early Firearms rules and Advanced Firearms rules are optional and overpowered.

One of my favourite characters is a gunslinger and I'm always a bit disappointed by suggested rules changes that just turn guns into a skin for crossbows.

Guns have unique advantages and unique disadvantages. They're great flavor and are a pretty distinct form of archer. Diversity is good right?

Advanced Firearms getting rid of the unique disadvantages is obviously not good for the standard balance of the things.

In any case alchemists target touch AC all the time and nobody complains about them.

Just my scattered stream of thoughts on the issue.

Diversity is good. Broken game mechanics are not. In my house rules, I did try to keep firearms as having a good niche as high-powered, short-range weapons. I also introduced many different types of guns since I'm tired of the game having only a very small amount of viable ranged weapons.

Alchemists are much different. Bombs have a much shorter range than most firearms, have limited uses per day, don't have x4 critical modifier and are easily countered with monsters resistant to fire or other energy types (highly common). Alchemists also don't have a full BAB and can't do iterative attacks until 8th level.


I will say this again "JUST BAN GUNS"

51 to 100 of 229 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Need Help! Gunslinger damage is insane. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.