There's been a lot of "armchair playtesting" apparently, and the devs don't seem to put as much salt into that as actual playtesting.
I've already gone on the record saying my group tried the Vigilante and didn't like it, but maybe I should elaborate more.
We ran a one-shot game using an update of Scourge of the Slavelords. The general setting seemed a good one for a Vigilante class.
The Party began at lv5; the player using the Vigilante chose to play a Silver-Tongued Human Stalker Vigilante and had the following stats:
Str 10 / Dex 20 / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 12 / Cha 16
HP39 / AC22 TAC15 FFAC17 (Armor +6, Dex +5, Natural +1)
Skills Use Magic Device +15, Acrobatics +13, Stealth +13, Bluff +13, Diplomacy +13, Slight of Hand +10, Sense Motive +11, Perception +9, Intimidate +8
Talents Rogue Talent - Minor Magic (Detect Magic), Rogue Talent - Major Magic (Vanish)
Feats Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Sickle), Slashing Grace (presupposing the errata that lets it include 1-handed Slashing weapons)
Gear +2 Mithral Chain Shirt, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, 2 Masterwork Sickles, Wand of Vanish
We used the Unchained forms of Minor and Major Magic. We also included the idea that Rogue Talent counted his Vigilante Levels as Rogue Levels; we needed to do this because the ability doesn't say that, meaning RAW it really doesn't work.
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The player using the Vigilante decided to go the Two-Weapon Fighting and Major Magic route to make use of Startling Appearance, although he admitted that was, in many ways, taking the lesser of two evils - taking Up Close and Personal would have been a less Feat-Intensive choice in some ways, but in others was far more situational, and still would have required him to have a high Dex.
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The adventure begins basically with a Downtime episode, with the Party and the town of Safeton enjoying the Feats of Edoira.
The Vigilante took this time to enter his Social Persona and go about town schmoozing and raising his Renown by a whopping 1 point of Renown; I allowed this on top of the other general Downtime Activities, and in the end he found that using Downtime to gain Influence was FAR more useful than spending time to gain Renown.
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After the Feat of Edoira, we got into the actual nitty-gritty of the adventure, with "Alas, Disaster! Alas!"
After this part of the Adventure took place, the Party attempted to try and Gather Information, using both the Renown and Influence the Vigilante had gathered, and eventually they encountered The Mad One; while the Vigilante couldn't Sense Motive against the spy, the Inquisitor did, and Combat began.
And here's where the real painful lesson came in: the Vigilante, who had been in his Social Persona in order to try and gather info, wanted to change guises, but knew he couldn't because:
A) the docks were populated enough that there were others around to see him [/i](the Party already knew his secret identity, although WHY he had a secret identity in the first place was a contrived headache - we said that his Vigilante persona had angered a corrupt Lord and thus had a hefty bounty on his head; not something we were happy about, being forced to come up with an RP reason for a Mechanic to exist, rather than the other way around like usual).[/i]
B) it would take 50 Combat Rounds for him to change.
So, with the enemy right in front of him, he decided to just try and wing it; he didn't die, but wasn't surprised that his character fared about as well as one would expect an Expert NPC with PC-level gear to do - that is, barely passable.
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After that, I declared that news of the Lord suddenly passing and the Lord's Son pardoning the Vigilante reached the Party.
The Vigilante switched to his Vigilante Persona permanently and never left it.
The rest of the Adventure continued without any divergence from the original plot.
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Afterwards, the Vigilante player said, with no uncertainty, that he really couldn't stand the class.
A veteran-among-veterans of the game SpyCraft, he had expected something more useful and spy-like with the Social Persona, and knew he was in for pain the moment he saw that not only did the Social Persona NOT allow him any access to his Vigilante Persona talents, it also had absolute NO abilities whatsoever that aren't already covered basically by the default features of Skills, the Downtime System, and the Fame/Infamy system.
He also was NOT a fan of the fact that the class shoehorns you into being Batman; he'd rather have been a common person who could blend in with the average slobs of the streets, going into Michael Westen mode when the combat began.
And as far as his overall usefulness was concerned, he admitted that, even during character creation, he wished he had decided to play an Unchained Rogue instead - the fact that he had to burn 2 Feats just to get Dex to Attack and Damage, while a Rogue of 2 levels lower got that for FREE was painful.
On top of this, he got none of the Rogue's utility with things like Trapfinding or Danger Sense, or even the possible perks of taking Archetypes that exchange those abilities out for other, more useful things.
He had no problem with taking Minor or Major Magic, but was pretty salty that he had no room for Extra Talent due to the heavy Feat Investment JUST to make Startling Appearance relevant (Flat Footed against all attacks in a round is absolutely useless and redundant with Vanish unless you have 2+ Attacks already - he admitted that MAYBE if he'd been a Tengu that would have been a different story because of the Bite and 2 Claw Attacks... but that's an entirely-different build altogether).
Once I told him that there would also BE no "Extra Talent" for the Vigilante, he said, and I quote:
"THAT'S F+&@ING B$*%#%$+!"
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To say the least, he was not impressed. To say the most, he thought the entire thing was hogwash.
This is a player who loves James Bond, loves the game SpyCraft, loves PLAYING spies, and was hoping to co-op the Vigilante to BE the Spy class he'd always wanted for the game but always had to jury-rig together, and never to his complete liking.
Obviously, he didn't get that, and was upset that he didn't even get a competent class in its place.
He survived the adventure, yes, but he said it felt like playing a 3.5 Rogue all over again, and he would much rather have played an Unchained Rogue from the get-go if he knew that's what he was in for.
How are you working renown? Is that a different system than the playtest?
Yeah, that sounds like you're using a different ruleset for renown... How would anyone get points of renown when the renown class feature doesn't involve points....
I sorta misspoke; he gained Renown in Safeton, period
I forgot that Renown isn't measured by a point system as to how many areas you have renown over,you just have renown in an area measured by both population and mileage...
The point still stands that spending one day gaining Influence proved vastly more useful than him spending a WEEK gaining Renown, since he was able to Gather Info 3 times per check, with a +5 for each check Every time he spent 1 Influence
I sorta misspoke; he gained Renown in Safeton, period
I forgot that Renown isn't measured by a point system as to how many areas you have renown over,you just have renown in an area measured by both population and mileage...
The point still stands that spending one day gaining Influence proved vastly more useful than him spending a WEEK gaining Renown, since he was able to Gather Info 3 times per check, with a +5 for each check Every time he spent 1 Influence
1 week of renown = charm person on most of the population of an area + bonus on intimidate for everywhere near that area. IMO, that's really good. Renown is a long term benefit, not a single + to a single check.
1 week of renown = charm person on most of the population of an area + bonus on intimidate for everywhere near that area. IMO, that's really good. Renown is a long term benefit, not a single + to a single check.I sorta misspoke; he gained Renown in Safeton, period
I forgot that Renown isn't measured by a point system as to how many areas you have renown over,you just have renown in an area measured by both population and mileage...
The point still stands that spending one day gaining Influence proved vastly more useful than him spending a WEEK gaining Renown, since he was able to Gather Info 3 times per check, with a +5 for each check Every time he spent 1 Influence
IN SOCIAL MODE... As pointed out above, 50 rounds of not having your talents is a bit rough for that long term buff... I came to the same conclusion as his player. Without some kind of quickchange ability, social mode wasn't worth it. Add to that the fact that 200 is a pitiful amount of people in an urban/city situation. You can literally walk a block and no one knows you.
1 week of renown = charm person on most of the population of an area + bonus on intimidate for everywhere near that area. IMO, that's really good. Renown is a long term benefit, not a single + to a single check.I sorta misspoke; he gained Renown in Safeton, period
I forgot that Renown isn't measured by a point system as to how many areas you have renown over,you just have renown in an area measured by both population and mileage...
The point still stands that spending one day gaining Influence proved vastly more useful than him spending a WEEK gaining Renown, since he was able to Gather Info 3 times per check, with a +5 for each check Every time he spent 1 Influence
Wow... one week of 4-hours-per-day Downtime work spent to get people in ONE SPECIFIC AREA one STEP closer to Friendly without any actual hard bonuses to Diplomacy checks.
Fantastic.
Excuse me while I purchase an ACTUAL Wand of Charm Person for 750gp and feel that I've spent my time and gp better, considering I can use it on anyone, anytime, anywhere, and if it succeeds they become ACTUALLY Friendly.
You know what's also great about Influence? It can be converted into other Capital, including gp. Or it can be saved in locations almost indefinitely (it fades, but at a fairly slow rate).
Once you go to a new area and gain Renown there, your Renown in your old area disappears immediately. Because that totally makes sense, right?
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Or, hey, how 'bout this?
Use the Reputation and Fame rules which REALLY DOES have wide-ranging effects and allow your Prestige Points to be spent to gain cool things, instead of Renown.
Right now, Renown is a pathetic attempt to almost-kinda-not-really make Reputation & Fame into a Class mechanic without it actually being as versatile as R&F.
I could honestly stomach Renown as both a player and DM if it somehow modified Reputation & Fame, which it seems like it absolutely should and would be a worthwhile mechanic, versus "week-long Charm Person that's useless except for the area you cast it in, and only if they were at least apathetic towards you".
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Do you actually need the downtime rules for Renown? And can't it mostly be done off-screen before first game if one starts off in a community?
"You've been in this town for a week already. Start."
The issue isn't so much the 50 rounds at level 1 (at level 1 your DM is going to telegraph to you when fights happen, and rarely ambush you). The issue is the lack of scaling between 50 rounds at 1 and 1 round at 13. I'm sure this will be addressed for the actual release.
Currently they have it so magical/mundane disguises don't help the change time, but personally I think they're a better method of changing over with more flexibility through the levels.
50 rounds is a heck of a lot of telegraphing. A few rounds maybe. Who hears an ambush 5 minutes away? What mugger waves at you a few minutes before rolling you in an alley. Does a crier run out to tell everyone an animal escaped a cage 51 rounds before it rampages?
This needs to be dropped from min to rounds and a few kinds of quick change should be available from level 1. Until then, I'll find social mode completely useless. So far my playtest has been pretty close to chbgraphicarts. Everything outside vigilante mode ignored. Right now, I'd like an archetype for a wandering vigilante that trades out the intrigue of social mode to actually be a better vigilante with an always on mode.
Do you actually need the downtime rules for Renown? And can't it mostly be done off-screen before first game if one starts off in a community?
"You've been in this town for a week already. Start."
You could, but why is only one player getting a free week of work? Why no Influence for the rest of the party? Or capital? Then you have the issue of moving over a block or two and no one knows who you are any more (it's only 200 people). In a big city, you're lucky if one street knows you. In a mobile game, it's a lot of 'off-screen' used.
Plenty of times you are 5 minutes away (or could be if it was an issue, particularly in large urban settings) when someone else screams for help, or the beasts escape from the zoo on the other side of the city. Use your Sleeve's of Many Garments/Hat of Human Guise to quickly change your appearance, and take care of the mindset change on the run. That's level 1 worthy. Oh the nice robber came out of the shadows and backstabbed you while pulling you into an alley? Yeah you're dead at 1. It's really not an issue at level 1 if your GM just doesn't intentionally screw you. Or to phrase it differently: Your GM can always screw you. He doesn't HAVE to.
And as for scaling, yes it needs scaling. Desperately.
But see, this class requires teh GM to go out of his way to work around you. Things that any other level 5 can handle (like a guy picking a fight with you), the Vigilante is screwed against. He can't even handle basic things without the GM having to work around him.
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In the one playtest session I've run so far, the feedback from the player playing the stalker said it was just worse than the rogue with worse sneak attack & down a feat, trapfinding and 2 skill ranks (although the good will save is certainly a plus). Part of the problem may have been running MotFF which is a dungeon crawl, but dungeon crawls come up, and it is expected that all characters should be able to pull their weight in that kind of environment.
It is unlikely we'll get characters up to 3rd level to use renown, but in the PFS environment which we would test this class feature, 3rd level will probably just feel like a dead level most of the time.
I certainly don't envy the devs trying to balance the dual identity & social grace class features. You can't just give it to a character for free, yet it's a 1st level class feature that has no value outside of narrative.
Not entirely true; You're a non-caster NPC with very nice gear, two good save progressions, very nice skills, medium armor proficiency, and martial weapon proficiency when not a Vigilante.
Which means you are inferior to a PC class. Helpless? maybe not. Feeling useful? Probably not?
Now would I ever be in my social aspect while out adventuring? I can think of very fringe cases where I might. I'm usually not social with the goblins I murderhobo however, and so I don't see why I'd try charming them with my social aspect either.
This here is the issue. For me, adventuring is when I playing the game. Danger doesn't wait for 5 min for me to figure out how to button up my hero costume. Social mode either forces the DM to design a world where there is always a 5 min danger buffer for all things or the vigilante is going to have to assume that any time social mode turns on that they might be caught with their pants down (and it'll take 5 min to figure out how to pull them up :P).
Use your Sleeve's of Many Garments/Hat of Human Guise to quickly change your appearance, and take care of the mindset change on the run.
Doesn't work. While everyone else is running to the danger, you're hiding in a dumpster changing. "must be done out of sight from other creatures to preserve the vigilante’s secrets." ALL FIVE MINUTES "must be done out of sight from other creatures". So not even other player characters. Heck you'd better blindfold your pets/familiars/horses since you can't even do it in front of them. (it doesn't say 'intelligent creature' after all)
"To Preserve the Vigilante's Secrets." If the other PCs already know your secret, or if an animal is around they don't prevent the transformation. Still, the fact you can't run around in disguise getting to a place if civvies are running around screaming is pretty bad.Use your Sleeve's of Many Garments/Hat of Human Guise to quickly change your appearance, and take care of the mindset change on the run.Doesn't work. While everyone else is running to the danger, you're hiding in a dumpster changing. "must be done out of sight from other creatures to preserve the vigilante’s secrets." ALL FIVE MINUTES "must be done out of sight from other creatures". So not even other player characters. Heck you'd better blindfold your pets/familiars/horses since you can't even do it in front of them. (it doesn't say 'intelligent creature' after all)
LOL it explains what you have to do to "To Preserve the Vigilante's Secrets." and that is "must be done out of sight from other creatures to preserve the vigilante’s secrets."
Does it make the least amount of sense that a random cat in the alley stops it? Not really but those are the rules. Same with teammates that know your secret. It's something that needs fixed before the class actually comes out. As it stands, it just makes an awful feature worse.
Wait, just jump in your friend's bag of holding while he runs to the danger.
When 5 minutes are up, you jump out. Well, the OTHER you.
Wait, just jump in your friend's bag of holding while he runs to the danger.
When 5 minutes are up, you jump out. Well, the OTHER you.
Just don't forget to open that bag... (it doesn't have air holes!)
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But see, this class requires teh GM to go out of his way to work around you. Things that any other level 5 can handle (like a guy picking a fight with you), the Vigilante is screwed against. He can't even handle basic things without the GM having to work around him.Plenty of times you are 5 minutes away (or could be if it was an issue, particularly in large urban settings) when someone else screams for help, or the beasts escape from the zoo on the other side of the city. Use your Sleeve's of Many Garments/Hat of Human Guise to quickly change your appearance, and take care of the mindset change on the run. That's level 1 worthy. Oh the nice robber came out of the shadows and backstabbed you while pulling you into an alley? Yeah you're dead at 1. It's really not an issue at level 1 if your GM just doesn't intentionally screw you. Or to phrase it differently: Your GM can always screw you. He doesn't HAVE to.
And as for scaling, yes it needs scaling. Desperately.
This is one of the biggest problems with the class's current design:
The game needs to be built around it or it's utterly crippled.
The Gunslinger needs Firearms, so the DM possibly needs to include Firearms in the campaign. Okay, that requires some catering; but that's a pretty minimal inclusion at best - the DM has to include about, what? 20-25 weapons in the game, at most?
The Vigilante, however, demands that the Campaign as a whole be tailored for it, rather than just require the addition of a handful of items.
The Campaign NEEDS to be set in a fairly-specific, populated area, or at least have a specific base of operations, or it's Renown is useless.
Whenever the Vigilante wants to establish Renown in an area, the DM NEEDS to give the Party 7 days of free time with 4 hours of non-action.
It NEEDS to have 5-minute intervals of quite alone-time to transform with no fear of interruption, or else changing Identities is useless. This includes Vermin like cockroaches, etc., apparently. Awesome.
It needs to have it hand held the entire time with all obstacles removed or else it's made into an NPC+ Class.
No War setting, no Wandering the World setting, no Dungeon-after-Dungeon setting...
Nope, in order for the Vigilante to not be absolutely gimped, the DM has to make large parts of the campaign just right for the Vigilante, and must lay out nice, fluffy pillows & rainbows & sparkles for them, while everyone else gets the standard deathtraps & demons.
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DMs dicking over Paladins and actively trying to make them Fall is just that: an ACTIVE effort.
The same is true for every other class, up to and even including the Gunslinger - adding in a subset of weapons is not unreasonable in the slightest, especially when they're WEAPONS, and thus can be picked up and used by every other character; at the very least there's always the option of making Gunslinger characters fairly unique in the world, and Firearms being their own unique creations, and the class can easily accommodate that idea (even going so far as to ASSUME that's the default).
The Vigilante, however, gets dicked over if the DM runs a completely-normal game.
That's a fault of the class, NOT a fault of the DM in the slightest.
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And, at the end of the day, that would be OKAY, IF the book were called Intrigue Adventures, and treated like Mythic Adventures.
Mythic Adventures and even arguably Occult Adventures work fine as campaign-warping things because it's pretty obvious that they're meant to be campaign-wide variants.
Ironically enough, though, Occult Adventures seems like at least the Occultist, Medium, and Kineticist actually fit fairly seamlessly in with all other classes in most other campaigns, Psychic "magic" included.
But the Vigilante is in Ultimate Intrigue, a book that in most peoples' minds (even probably the devs) rounds out the mini-trilogy of Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, and itself.
That means that, like the Magus and Gunslinger before it, the Vigilante needs to accommodate itself to campaigns, not the other way around.