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A few of us were talking about various concepts and build possibilities and were kinda getting stuck on this. You can obviously build hyper focused builds that spec out an astronomical score for a couple of abilities, but then the PC can't function as anything else. We don't want one-dimensional characters, so we won't build to that level of specialization. But how close should we get?
Making a diplomat/face - How high does diplomacy, buff, sense motive type skills need to be to adequately fulfill that role?
Making a scout - How high does stealth, perception, disable device type skills need to be to adequately fulfill that role?
I've heard 2*level, level+5, etc...
What do you use?
Anything beyond Diplomacy +15 is a waste in my opinion. At that point you can take 10 and improve the attitude of someone hostile.
Bluff and Sense Motive don't have a ceiling since they are used for opposed checks.
Same for Stealth and Perception, opposed rolls so no ceiling.
Disable Device is a tricky one. You can always take the attitude that as long as perception is high enough to detect it, you can try to avoid any traps you can't disarm. Expect a lot of variation in the answer to this one.
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Anything beyond Diplomacy +15 is a waste in my opinion. At that point you can take 10 and improve the attitude of someone hostile. ...
At what level? You have to focus pretty hard to get a +15 at 3rd level. Yet it is almost trivial at level 11.
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Bluff and Sense Motive don't have a ceiling since they are used for opposed checks.
Same for Stealth and Perception, opposed rolls so no ceiling.
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Yes, there is no ceiling. But if say a PC is level 5 and has a total of +8 for bluff/stealth, do you think he is good enough at that skill to say he is fulfilling that role as primary face/scout or should it be higher?
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Yes, there is no ceiling. But if say a PC is level 5 and has a total of +8 for bluff/stealth, do you think he is good enough at that skill to say he is fulfilling that role as primary face/scout or should it be higher?...
Bluff and Sense Motive don't have a ceiling since they are used for opposed checks.
Same for Stealth and Perception, opposed rolls so no ceiling.
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A +8 at level 5 is mediocre. That means that you have full ranks - but no other bonuses, not even stat bonuses. It's good enough to work some of the time, but you won't be able to rely upon them to work consistently.
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Another group I didn't bring up. It didn't occur to me since we were only talking about scout face characters. But yes.
If you are building the know about monsters guy, how good at it do you need to be?
Again, I am aware there is no ceiling. But if I build a PC around having the ultimate in a few skill modifiers, he won't be good for much of anything else. That isn't useful, so how high does it need to be to be considered good enough to fulfill that role?
Another group I didn't bring up. It didn't occur to me since we were only talking about scout face characters. But yes.
If you are building the know about monsters guy, how good at it do you need to be?
Again, I am aware there is no ceiling. But if I build a PC around having the ultimate in a few skill modifiers, he won't be good for much of anything else. That isn't useful, so how high does it need to be to be considered good enough to fulfill that role?
I disagree with this since a lot of skills compliment each other.
That said, to be "good" at it, I'd suggest at a minimum - max ranks for your level, it be a class skill, have your top attribute be the relevant attribute, and another couple bonuses from one of: masterwork equipment or a racial ability or a feat or a trait or something.
But since you mention stealth, stealth is a different beast. You're The idea of a +8 stealth at 5th level for a sneaky character is pretty poor since a goblin who doesn't even really try too hard is going to have over a +20.
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Again, I am aware there is no ceiling. But if I build a PC around having the ultimate in a few skill modifiers, he won't be good for much of anything else. That isn't useful, so how high does it need to be to be considered good enough to fulfill that role?
If you want to be good at skills - especially knowledge skills - be an elf or gnome bard with the Breadth of Experience trait and dip a skill point into every knowledge by level 4-5.
Your knowledge skills will all be very good - you'll be an awesome face - and plenty left over for stealth & acrobatics. Done.
Another group I didn't bring up. It didn't occur to me since we were only talking about scout face characters. But yes.
If you are building the know about monsters guy, how good at it do you need to be?
Again, I am aware there is no ceiling. But if I build a PC around having the ultimate in a few skill modifiers, he won't be good for much of anything else. That isn't useful, so how high does it need to be to be considered good enough to fulfill that role?
If you're doing the "know about monsters" guy, be a bard with a high intelligence. Pick one or two or three to specialize in to max your ranks out on and make sure you get the rest at least every other level.
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A +8 at level 5 is mediocre. That means that you have full ranks - but no other bonuses, not even stat bonuses. It's good enough to work some of the time, but you won't be able to rely upon them to work consistently.
I agree and that’s kinda my point. I wouldn’t say a character that is described as ‘mediocre’ to be fulfilling that role. Might be good enough for a backup at it “Well no face showed up so I guess I will do the talking for the group.” So how much higher does it need to be before you would describe the character as ‘good’ or ‘acceptable’ at that role?
At what point does it switch from “Well if no one else can do it I will take a shot” over to “This guy is intended to be the face character for the group” in your mind?
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That said, to be "good" at it, I'd suggest at a minimum - max ranks for your level, it be a class skill, have your top attribute be the relevant attribute, and another couple bonuses from one of: masterwork equipment or a racial ability or a feat or a trait or something.
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So sounds like your basically saying Level+8 minimum. With the caveat that you are not including stealth.
I have a diplomancer (6th level Bard, no archetype) in PFS currently and I find that the supposition that you will be poor at everything else is false.
He was inspired by a real person, someone who was able to talk everyone we knew into some really stupid stuff back in the day. So the thought was to get maximum diplomacy. I made a Human with focused study and silver tongue as alternate racial traits. I took the Persuasive feat and the World Traveler trait and got Skill Focus: Diplomacy from focused study. I maxed out charisma, dumping wisdom to 7 and having no other scores above 12 to get there, this isn't ideal but it fit the character so I went with it. I had a +17 at level 1. He is still a Bard though, he has Cure Light Wounds and Feather Fall and Inspire Courage and he has bad initiative so he doesn't need to act all that often anyway.
In actual play he crushed every DC. Even the ones that are so high it seemed like the author only put a number there to highlight how absurd the task was. He bypassed encounters by accident. More than once I turned a skill check section into a pure roleplaying section because I could beat the DCs on a 1. I am planning on retraining out of Persuasive because I can beat all the DCs without it. It is actually too much, as in I am wasting resources on something I already can't fail at.
Bluff & Sense Motive and especially Stealth/Sleight of Hand/Disguise & Perception are opposed rolls however, often with really high bonuses from size, race, and magic. These can really never be too high, as you are explicitly going against someone else and not a DC.
If you are building the know about monsters guy, how good at it do you need to be?
The normal DC is CR + 10 + 5 in order to know two things about a monster. Since you are often looking at CR of APL +2, that would mean you want level +7 for a 50% shot. Basically you need to be a wizard.
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Ok, I will try to get a little more specific even though I was trying for a more general rule.
I have played with a guy that had a maxed scout type of character. I think he had around a +16 to stealth at first level. It rapidly went up from there, since almost every feat, trait, and magic item increased stealth, disable device, and perception. At 5th level he had something close to a +30. I don’t think he ever failed a stealth or disable device check. But he gave up and stopped playing him because that was all he could do. He couldn’t survive staying in combat, rarely hit, and rarely did much damage. No social skills. Etc… It was boring to him. Way too one dimensional.
There are a couple of different maxed bluff/diplomacy builds on the forums. If I recall correctly they had even higher totals. But again, as soon as you are not in a bluff/diplo situation, there isn’t that much else they can do.
I have a character concept in mind and not sure exactly how I’m going to build him. I want him to be primarily a martial build yet still able to be the primary scout for the group. It is stupidly easy to get his stealth to level+5, but I agree that is not good enough to be a primary scout character. So the bare minimum of max ranks is not good enough to be scout. The max of focusing everything is way overkill. Where should it be to be considered good enough?
Friend wants to build a face character since they seem to be in short supply in his area. But again he wants it to be more than just a face character. The max diplomat build he found is amazing for diplomacy, but horrible for almost any other situation. But just a few skill ranks and decent charisma doesn’t appear to be good enough to be called a ‘face’ character. How much more is needed?
There are lots of ways to build toward a given total modifier, but what should we be targeting?
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I have a diplomancer (6th level Bard, no archetype) in PFS currently and I find that the supposition that you will be poor at everything else is false.
He was inspired by a real person, someone who was able to talk everyone we knew into some really stupid stuff back in the day. So the thought was to get maximum diplomacy. I made a Human with focused study and silver tongue as alternate racial traits. I took the Persuasive feat and the World Traveler trait and got Skill Focus: Diplomacy from focused study. I maxed out charisma, dumping wisdom to 7 and having no other scores above 12 to get there, this isn't ideal but it fit the character so I went with it. I had a +17 at level 1. He is still a Bard though, he has Cure Light Wounds and Feather Fall and Inspire Courage and he has bad initiative so he doesn't need to act all that often anyway.
In actual play he crushed every DC. Even the ones that are so high it seemed like the author only put a number there to highlight how absurd the task was. He bypassed encounters by accident. More than once I turned a skill check section into a pure roleplaying section because I could beat the DCs on a 1. I am planning on retraining out of Persuasive because I can beat all the DCs without it. It is actually too much, as in I am wasting resources on something I already can't fail at.
Bluff & Sense Motive and especially Stealth/Sleight of Hand/Disguise & Perception are opposed rolls however, often with really high bonuses from size, race, and magic. These can really never be too high, as you are explicitly going against someone else and not a DC.
I didn't say a bard is lousy. I said a character that focused everything possible on face skills can't do much else. There was a build with 2 or 3 archtypes. It traded out most of the bard abilities. Nearly all of the spells known were to help with diplomacy. All of the wealth was spent on things to increase those face skills. I think all of the ability scores except intelligence and charisma were 10 or lower. iirc, in the mid levels it was racking skill totals in the 60's.
Your build isn't that and you are agreeing with me that you still have too much on those skills for what you need. So some lower total would still be quite good enough to be considered the 'face' character.
I find a average skill DC to be about 15 + character level. Knowledge is one of the few areas where a really good check result will benefit you more than a good enough result.
I can totally sympathize with people wanting to be good enough but not crippled somewhere else. Most of us have felt that way at one point or another.
Feeling out how good is good enough and what is too much is a process. Making a character who shines sometimes and contributes always is a very reasonable goal. Builds others post are a great starting point for thinking about a character, but I don't know anyone with success using them unmodified.
I rind that there is no ceiling for Knowledge checks, especially for rare and unusual monsters.
Of course, if you're putting points into knowledge skills then you're probably an Int-based class and have more skill points than you even need.
@OP: For a face character, I usually have no issues just putting a rank in diplomacy every level and calling it a day. Sense Motive may not even be entirely necessary, as your charisma dumpers will often times have high enough wisdom to have a bad feeling about things.
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The problem is their is not definitive response to the question. As each skill or set of skills will be handled different at times. The general rule is for skills you want to be good at max ranks, for skills you want to be ok at 1/2 ranks, for skills you don't really use all the time one point will get you a role.
What you should be looking at. How many skill ranks dose that character get per level. Then decide what skills are most important to that character. Spending feet's and magic item only on skills that are super critical to the character. Even then spending resources on skills most of the time is not a good way to spend them. Their are a few exceptions to this rule. As I tend to use traits to get skills as class skills. Like with Vagabond Child for my Bard (no archetypes) so he can have disable device as a class skill. One trait combined with Arm Zey's Focus (Level 2). Grants the caster trapfinding for one minute per level. Now you have a bard that can do traps including magic traps. It's all about what you want the character to be able to do. For most of his PFSP play time he was the trap person of the group, along with the lead buffer, and face character. He did ok in combat as well due to all the buffing and buying weapons that get past most DR.
I tend to make skill heavy characters. It's fits to my play style. I don't make them good at one skill at the expense of others. I make them skilled at many things. Even my PFSP Fighter gets 5 skill ranks per level. As you level up you will find it's less about the bonuses to the skill and more about how many ranks you have in that skill. You can spend feet's and gold to make skills better. The bottom line is the cheapest way to make skills better are skill ranks.
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Skills are important, but scenarios rarely work under the assumption that someone in the group will have an utterly optimized bonus for any particular skill.
When the PCs have to attempt a particular skill check, I consider what a focused character (full ranks in a class skill with a solid ability score bonus and perhaps a few small miscellaneous bonuses), a competent character (full ranks in a non-class skill, ranks around 1/2 his HD in a class skill, or something along those lines), and an untrained character might be able to achieve. I use these terms and numbers just as loose benchmarks to make sure difficulty checks are in the right range.
I usually expect a focused character to accomplish a task on a roll of around 5–10, a competent character on around a 9–14, and an untrained character on a 15+. This varies a bit by level, as higher level skill challenges are sometimes out of the reach of untrained characters, and being untrained at 1st level tends not to be too bad. If the DC doesn't fit in those ranges, it might call for my including some mitigating factors or additional ways to bypass the challenge. I sometimes use a benchmark bonus of +7 plus 1.25 per character level to see what a typical group might bring to bear against a skill check in which the PCs can let one person do the check (e.g. Diplomacy, Disable Device, etc.). The +1.25/level metric takes into account fairly regular investment of ranks as well as the gradual increase of one's ability scores and other skill bonuses. As a result, I would feel comfortable giving an 11th-level group a DC 29 check for most skills.
Of course, a very focused character can often blow most DCs out of the water, and I've been able to include some "if the PC exceeds the DC by 5 or more" conditions to some adventures. Even then, picking every character option that boosts a skill is probably going to mean the character's success rate goes from "very often" to "always."
Finally, keep in mind that adventures rarely if ever require a successful skill check in order to proceed. Failing might trigger the trap, lose you the support of an NPC, or result in not finding a magic item, yes, but it almost never results in the adventure just ending then and there.
Anything beyond Diplomacy +15 is a waste in my opinion. At that point you can take 10 and improve the attitude of someone hostile.
Actually, the DC is (Attitude)+Charisma modifier. A straight 15 bonus is only going to get you hostile creatures with no charisma bonus.
+17 will get most creatures, but you will occasionally run into +5 or higher charisma mods on bards, sorcerers, oracles, and spell casting creatures. And there may be circumstance modifiers you're not aware of (all elves are at -5, for example).
Minimum ranks for "non Role skills" should be enough to provide an aid another check to the player who is filling that role. Aid another means you can have minimal ranks in a skill and still contribute to party actions.
Aid another, beat a DC of 10 to provide your ally a +2 to their role.
For perception and stealth, there is no such thing as "too much", my ninja with +30 stealth was caught by a natural 20 on a +11 perception.
For the "good enough", it is really very subjective, if your campaign has a few simple traps, being able to beat a DC20 disable device might be the most you will ever need. On the other hand a campaign through a magic trap filled tomb, DC40 might be barely enough to scrape by.
The campaign informs on what is necessary for the role, but role focus and party diversity are generally the best bet.
Minimum ranks for "non Role skills" should be enough to provide an aid another check to the player who is filling that role. Aid another means you can have minimal ranks in a skill and still contribute to party actions.
Aid another, beat a DC of 10 to provide your ally a +2 to their role.
For perception and stealth, there is no such thing as "too much", my ninja with +30 stealth was caught by a natural 20 on a +11 perception.
You need to be able to get a success in order to aid another. If the DC is 30 and you only have a +9, you can't Aid Another. This doesn't happen very often, but it can happen.
Aid Another
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
The DC is 10, unless otherwise noted by the GM.
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So, here are my benchmarks:
Diplomacy:
You want to be able to shift a hostile creature 2 steps, since hostile to unfriendly just means they won't attack you if you turn around and leave, not necessarily that they will let you pass.
So that means you have to hit 25 + 5 + (Cha) so skill of +20-25.
Knowledge:
as people said, 10+APL+2, but there are rare monsters out there, and it is nice to get more than one question, and some knowledge checks are for enviromental factors or scenario background so: level +7 or +20 whichever is higher.
Perception:
There is almost no point at which it is not good to get more of this.