Honestly, the secret identity feels more like it could be one of the talent chains, only then you have no class at all. :P
Improved disguise option talents would be pretty great, though, to really get that "spy" shtick down.
It's kinda like the pre-brawler monk, in a way—"Look, I just wanted to pummel things, why do I have to channel life force and max my Wisdom and stuff?"
There are so many awesome abilities, but they come latched on to this huge main ability that is only connected tangentially. So, yeah, sadly, I really want an archetype that just replaces the secret identity rigmarole with more talents or something. :P
Without dual identity, you are not filling the role of the vigilante who is taking on another identity in order to do things that would otherwise harm their social standing (possibly because those things are illegal and punishable by death).
Yup. Yeah. Mm-hm. Yes. That's exactly what I want to do: Not fill that role. Why should I get a secret identity? Most of these talents have nothing to do with it. It's like a gift with purchase—"Look, get this secret identity thing. C'mon. No-one else is buying them, we're crazy overstocked. Here! We'll throw in Hide in Plain Sight! And darkvision! And super sniper skills!"
It's not that I don't like the "secret identity vigilante" concept, but...well, the majority of these talents feel like they'd fit just as well for any class, secret identity or no. Instead, I'm trapped playing Batman/Chopper/Underdog just so I can pull off swift action improvised weapon retrieval (not the best example, but I've already referenced most of my favorites).
so i'll be honest i haven't read the playtest at all because i stay out of playtests like 90% of the time, but that just all sounds so awesome.
To be fair, it IS possible to just. Never change into your secret identity.
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Two things:
One: yes, people in a given setting will eventually learn that Vigilantes are a thing, and that sometimes they can't be scried. That still doesn't mean they'll automatically know who your secret identity is, though. It might mean that they'll start looking for your secret identity using normal methods... but that's a good thing, it adds tension and conflict, which is always good for storytelling.
Your Social Identity starts hearing about this big bad that's asking around about your Vigilante Identity... suggesting that he may has sussed out the fact that you have a secret identity. How should you take steps to make sure the villain doesn't discover your secret? That's what adds more layers of interest to a story... an entire adventure can revolve around trying to keep your identity safe from someone who's figured out that you're a Vigilante.
I am more worried about the reverse. You are infiltrating the scene, trying to find this big bad who is praying on socialites, so you are making a splash in your secret ID, trying to get him to target you or otherwise reveal himself. He does his due diligence, scrying you to find your weaknesses, and lo and behold, sometimes you are a valid target, some times you are not. Yeah, you might not be after him specifically, but he knows you are trouble, and maybe he should just lay low till you get out of town.
I like the idea of it, but some of the abilities are weak in my opinion, but I will create another thread with mechanical issues later on.
To be fair, it IS possible to just. Never change into your secret identity.
Sure, and a bard don't gotta perform, and a monk don't gotta flurry, and a rogue don't gotta sneak attack. You're sacrificing major class abilities, though.
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The dual identity isn't baggage, it's the whole point of the class @_@
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On the other hand, is the very uniqueness a dead giveaway?
If I have someone who sometimes is a valid target, and sometimes is not, how long before word gets out that this is a defining characteristic of vigilantes?
I would rather it read: "Any attempts to scry or otherwise locate the vigilante work only if the vigilante is currently in an identity known to the creature attempting to locate him. If he is in an identity unknown to the creature, the spell or effect has no effect, revealing nothing but darkness as if the target
was invalid or did not exist.had made it's saving throw."
unlikely to be scrying the baker really...
The dual identity isn't baggage, it's the whole point of the class @_@
maybe you want the mechanics but to not hide all the time? maybe you want to be famous. maybe your friends and family are all capable of protecting themselves. maybe you want to be tony start in the new marvel movies.
To be fair, it IS possible to just. Never change into your secret identity.
you mean social identity.
The dual identity isn't baggage, it's the whole point of the class @_@maybe you want the mechanics but to not hide all the time? maybe you want to be famous. maybe your friends and family are all capable of protecting themselves. maybe you want to be tony start in the new marvel movies.
You can do that still, there is nothing actually saying you have to keep the identities a secret.
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The dual identity isn't baggage, it's the whole point of the class @_@maybe you want the mechanics but to not hide all the time? maybe you want to be famous. maybe your friends and family are all capable of protecting themselves. maybe you want to be tony start in the new marvel movies.
I would counter that there are what?? 36 other base classes that may fit the idea better then.
Not every class SHOULD be ideal for every character concept and certainly not ever type of game. PFS paints itself into a corner with their short scenarios and level caps.
The Vigilante is the Batman Type character. He's the Zorro, the Scarlet Pimpernel... That's what the class was based on. The secret Id and playing two characters at once. Much like the Alchemist/Master Cymist's dual personality... it's such a core concept to what the Vigilante was designed to be that trying to work around it defeats much of the purpose.
Personally, I love the way they have made it so versatile. You can have the rogue version, the caster version, the full BAB version and you can have a whole party of Vigilantes if you want and they'll all feel different and fill different roles.
Very cool design philosophy here.
You can do that still, there is nothing actually saying you have to keep the identities a secret.The dual identity isn't baggage, it's the whole point of the class @_@maybe you want the mechanics but to not hide all the time? maybe you want to be famous. maybe your friends and family are all capable of protecting themselves. maybe you want to be tony start in the new marvel movies.
Sure, if you don't really want to use a huge chunk of your class abilities. :P
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Sure, if you don't really want to use a huge chunk of your class abilities. :PYou can do that still, there is nothing actually saying you have to keep the identities a secret.The dual identity isn't baggage, it's the whole point of the class @_@maybe you want the mechanics but to not hide all the time? maybe you want to be famous. maybe your friends and family are all capable of protecting themselves. maybe you want to be tony start in the new marvel movies.
Like what? From your OP it sounds like the mechanics you were interested in were the ones you only get while in your vigilante identity anyways.
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Sure, if you don't really want to use a huge chunk of your class abilities. :PYou can do that still, there is nothing actually saying you have to keep the identities a secret.The dual identity isn't baggage, it's the whole point of the class @_@maybe you want the mechanics but to not hide all the time? maybe you want to be famous. maybe your friends and family are all capable of protecting themselves. maybe you want to be tony start in the new marvel movies.
The only ones your not using in that case are the +20 to disguises and the ability to take a mundane identity. I'm saying you don't need to keep your identities secret, not that you don't swap between identities. You can go around and party in your social identity, boast about your abilities and do charity appearances. Then go into your vigilante persona when the need arises, becoming more serious and deadly, and using your previous boasting to make you more intimidating.
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After trying and failing to make something out of this class that is at all unique as well as being viable I agree. This class feels like it could be the serial killer I've always wanted to be, but it falls just short. It needs more class abilities than the specific one given to each type. If you're going to have the abilities work only 50% of the time then each side shouldn't be 1/2 a class, each side should be at least 75% of a class so they can function within their specific role effectively. My personal favourite is dealing 1/2 your (totally not sneak attack) damage to all opponents you scare, every time you do so. That ability alone is awesome, and I tried to make something with it, but I just felt like I didn't have everything I needed to do it: not enough class abilities to back up my J̶a̶s̶o̶n̶ I mean Serial Killer character to be able to be more than a one trick pony.
It needs more class abilities than the specific one given to each type. If you're going to have the abilities work only 50% of the time then each side shouldn't be 1/2 a class, each side should be at least 75% of a class so they can function within their specific role effectively.
I definitely agree with this.
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It needs more class abilities than the specific one given to each type. If you're going to have the abilities work only 50% of the time then each side shouldn't be 1/2 a class, each side should be at least 75% of a class so they can function within their specific role effectively.I definitely agree with this.
+1
Like what? From your OP it sounds like the mechanics you were interested in were the ones you only get while in your vigilante identity anyways.Sure, if you don't really want to use a huge chunk of your class abilities. :PYou can do that still, there is nothing actually saying you have to keep the identities a secret.The dual identity isn't baggage, it's the whole point of the class @_@maybe you want the mechanics but to not hide all the time? maybe you want to be famous. maybe your friends and family are all capable of protecting themselves. maybe you want to be tony start in the new marvel movies.
Yup! But my post was intended constructively. Just as the monk has options to trade out abilities the player has no intention of using, I do hope archetypes exist that simply do away with the Shoeshine silliness mechanics so we can replace them with more relevant and useful abilities. ;P
The only ones your not using in that case are the +20 to disguises and the ability to take a mundane identity. I'm saying you don't need to keep your identities secret, not that you don't swap between identities. You can go around and party in your social identity, boast about your abilities and do charity appearances. Then go into your vigilante persona when the need arises, becoming more serious and deadly, and using your previous boasting to make you more intimidating.Sure, if you don't really want to use a huge chunk of your class abilities. :PYou can do that still, there is nothing actually saying you have to keep the identities a secret.The dual identity isn't baggage, it's the whole point of the class @_@maybe you want the mechanics but to not hide all the time? maybe you want to be famous. maybe your friends and family are all capable of protecting themselves. maybe you want to be tony start in the new marvel movies.
Not that I don't appreciate the cleverness of this idea, but what if I just want a mercenary who can attack people through doors? ;D
Surely we can all see that dipping into vigilante for a talent inevitably comes with more baggage than dipping into, say, ninja.
One thing I dont like is waiting until level 13 to drop that 5 minute change over time. At the very least have it drop to 1 minute around level 7.
Surely we can all see that dipping into vigilante for a talent inevitably comes with more baggage than dipping into, say, ninja.
I don't know.... There are a decent number of GM's that'll shove baggage on ninjas to force them to be Asian....
It's not baggage. It's the class' main selling point.
The only thing I think is that you get some of the primary non-path abilities too late in the game. They should be moved up several levels, and have new, more powerful ones created for the later levels.
My initial impression of dual identity is not good either. It does as a class feature something that is a skill (Disguise). It has one nice (hiding from scrying while disguised) and two decent (quicker than regular disguise but can't be accelerated more until much higher level, and false alignment but only one step away) improvements to skill. And the restriction to one extra complex identity and only later commoner identities. Meh. I was hoping for a versatile master spy, not masked avenger that has talents of single another class...
Yes, but if you're alternate identity IS "versatil master spy" then guess what? You detect as that. You can still use your Disguise skill to pull it off nicely.
One day you are Bob, the next you are Steve. Both are part of your "versatile master spy" identity and so you get your +20 Disguise bonus to it. People might know of the reputation of the master spy (provided they can make the checks), but they don't know who he is or who or where he/she might be at any given time. :P
...what if I just want a mercenary who can attack people through doors? ;D
Surely we can all see that dipping into vigilante for a talent inevitably comes with more baggage than dipping into, say, ninja.
There will absolutely be options that allow other classes to dip into this one. They've done it for literally every single new class for the last several years. It may be an archetype, or a feat, or something similar, but I'm certain it will happen, likely in this very book. You will be able to poach some of the vigilante abilities as another class. This, I think, should help you have your mercenary who can "attack people through doors."
Good! That's more-or-less all I want: A vigilante-type without split personality disorder. ;P
I know Dual Identity is technically the class's main point. The reason I called it "baggage" was because it will inevitably become an unwanted aspect to ignore for many PCs and NPCs (as people here have acknowledged with "just don't use it" advice) rather than what you're actually looking for with the class. The only way to avoid this is through archetypes and the sort.
Yes. My issue here is completely just with not understanding that this is a roleplay class. It has nothing to do with unwanted flavor actually running counter to roleplaying many concepts that would otherwise really benefit from many of this class's abilities.
Whoops. Totally didn't leave Sarc Lock on on this computer. *Click*
I would be very surprised if there weren't an archetype that switched out the dual identity. All the universal stuff is prime archetype fodder, after all. I figure there will be one spy archetype and one archetype that ditches the identity thing altogether.
I'm not understanding the logic behind wanting an archetype that swaps dual identity for a completely different class feature.
I can understand archetypes doing something different or interesting with it, like one that's more Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hide.
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Yes. My issue here is completely just with not understanding that this is a roleplay class. It has nothing to do with unwanted flavor actually running counter to roleplaying many concepts that would otherwise really benefit from many of this class's abilities.
Whoops. Totally didn't leave Sarc Lock on on this computer. *Click*
Actually, I feel like the problem is that PF is a class based system. I feel like you are saying "Gee, these are some nice powers, too bad I have to play this class to get them" This is a problem built into class based systems. The solution is to not play a class based system.
Why not? Not everybody who wants these class features has dual identity stuff in mind, just like not everybody who wants to be good at hitting people wants to be channeling ki and be Wisdom-based.
Damn it, Postmonster, don't eat that!
FLite: Gonna paraphrase this, even though I was really happy with how I phrased it. Most main class abilities are either not particularly flavor-invasive (like sneak attack) or are very closely connected to the other abilities the class gets (like the gunslinger's gun stuff). The vigilante's "problem" is that you have this one main ability that demands acknowledgement in flavor, and then a bunch of practically unrelated abilities. What does bursting through a door have to do with my secret identity? That works just as well for a ranger, or a barbarian, or a gnoll cleric of Gorum. Vigilante is not a particularly dip-friendly class at present.
If you're playing a gunslinger, you use a gun (barring archetypes). But at least all your abilities are about guns. You don't see a bowman going, "Gee, I really wish I had that 'avoid misfires' ability." If you're dipping into rogue, you get sneak attack. But that is perfectly usable by most concepts—it doesn't require secret identities, or mood swings, or any of these personality adjustments. I can be exactly the same paladin/fighter/barbarian I was—just with extra skill points and a very teamwork-encouraging set of tactics. But if I dip into vigilante to get door-bursting powers, I also get all this social stuff I may not be interested in. It's kind of like multiclassing over to ranger to nab "wilderness hunter" and getting stuck with divine magic, though fortunately archetypes and hybrid classes exist to mitigate this.
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I'm not disagreeing with you. I find class based systems somewhat arbitrarily confining. But I don't think there is any interest within Paizo to convert PF over to a class free system, although I think the never ending push for mix & match classes, Hybrid classes, etc are all a sign that it is needed.
Sorry, I wrote an edit responding to you about class systems and it got eaten. Rewrote it. The first part of my post was in response to Cyrad's "Why would you want an archetype without dual identity?"
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The more I think about it, the more I think (probably unpopular opinion here) that the Dual Identity actually should play more of a role in the mechanics of the class all the way through level 20 than it does currently.
Functionally, the various specializations don't really do too much that can't already be done with other classes or class combos (there are a couple nifty new things, but these could be emulated by feats or talents given to other classes as well).
The Dual Identity feature does a little bit more than the Reputation rules, but fundamentally is very similar.
The core of this class is the marriage between the two ideas: other classes + Reputation/Identity = Vigilante.
Right now it seems like the two don't intermingle as much as they should. Perhaps there are some other mechanics that tie into Ultimate Intrigue that we are missing where we might see more overlap, but as is, I would like to see the Dual Identity play more of a role in the mechanics of this class. (I'm admittedly not sure specifically what at this point, but I'll keep thinking on it.)
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I agree with the sentiments above. Just looking at Dual Identity (and Renown) through the lens of PFS play, I can't figure out the relevance during a scenario. It seems like an awesome concept for an longer campaign or even Adventure Path, though. Maybe folks will play the Vigilante during the scenario and use their +4 for day job rolls as others suggested. Regardless, I'm still excited about this and I'll give it a try at my next PFS session and see for myself.
Not being in the right identity might be crippling when an expected social encounter, turns out to be a fight, or you are caught in a random encounter. The chance to get a +4 doesn't seem to be worth the risk in many situations, especially since changing takes quite a long time, and has to be done in secrecy (at least at the lower levels).
I completely agree with Alexander Augunas. I feel Dual Identity is being undervalued.
I can even see it working really well in PFS scenarios. Most PFS scenarios take place in one location or have you sent from Absalom to another town with plenty of downtime before talking to the next major NPC. You would have plenty of time to gain renown and make use of your social.
Sorry to disagree, but while there are a number of adventures where this tactic could be possible, most do have a rather short time frame.
Every scenario that takes place in Absalon or in a remote area without significant civilization (and even then 200 people is nothing, Sandpoint already has 1200) will not benefit from renown, unless your GM somehow is very very open about the definition of neighborhood.
I don't think that I can recall running a single adventure, and some were very much RP focused, where this renown would have been able to provide a benefit.
The more I think about it, the more I think (probably unpopular opinion here) that the Dual Identity actually should play more of a role in the mechanics of the class all the way through level 20 than it does currently.
That's not an unpopular opinion at all. I quite agree. Half my problem is that all these neat abilities aren't really connected to the central theme, making the vigilante's main ability rather limited.
The more I think about it, the more I think (probably unpopular opinion here) that the Dual Identity actually should play more of a role in the mechanics of the class all the way through level 20 than it does currently.
Functionally, the various specializations don't really do too much that can't already be done with other classes or class combos (there are a couple nifty new things, but these could be emulated by feats or talents given to other classes as well).
I do have to agree here. As much I like the class, the specializations just make you feel like a fake version of another class. I think adding more uses of the social and mundane identities would help.
Edit: Better yet, have the vigilante talents benefit the social identity rather than only the viligante
This said, I disagree to a point on the special abilities. As-is, they're underpowered, but when they do get improved (and I sure hope they do) they'll be very cool and unique options. This said, they'll be cool and unique options that would work just as well for countless other classes, hence the thread. ;D
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The more I think about it, the more I think (probably unpopular opinion here) that the Dual Identity actually should play more of a role in the mechanics of the class all the way through level 20 than it does currently.
Functionally, the various specializations don't really do too much that can't already be done with other classes or class combos (there are a couple nifty new things, but these could be emulated by feats or talents given to other classes as well).
The Dual Identity feature does a little bit more than the Reputation rules, but fundamentally is very similar.
The core of this class is the marriage between the two ideas: other classes + Reputation/Identity = Vigilante.
Right now it seems like the two don't intermingle as much as they should. Perhaps there are some other mechanics that tie into Ultimate Intrigue that we are missing where we might see more overlap, but as is, I would like to see the Dual Identity play more of a role in the mechanics of this class. (I'm admittedly not sure specifically what at this point, but I'll keep thinking on it.)
I agree with this. The talents are all abilities that other classes get. The dual identity is the only thing the vigilante really has going for it that other classes don't.
I don't know what exactly should be done with it, but I think it should somehow have scaling abilities, maybe something along the lines of "every X level, you may use one more talent while in social guise. this talent must be chosen at the level this ability is gained, and can not be changed after it is set".
I'd like to see a little more in the way of talents that feel unique, as well, perhaps even talents that apply solely to the social guise.
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I still think that rather than being fake versions of another class, Vigilante should be a clamp on to another class.
Something more like Evangalist, but starting at 1st level, so when you take your first level of vigilante, you also pick anouther class, and you gain a level in that class for the purpose of gaining class features. Then for every three levels in vigilante, you gain 2 levels in that class for the purpose of adding class features. (And most of your vigilante class features kick in on the third level, so things stay evenly distributed.)
Or even just an alternate rule system like renown, with some feats to boost it.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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The more I think about it, the more I think (probably unpopular opinion here) that the Dual Identity actually should play more of a role in the mechanics of the class all the way through level 20 than it does currently.
Functionally, the various specializations don't really do too much that can't already be done with other classes or class combos (there are a couple nifty new things, but these could be emulated by feats or talents given to other classes as well).
I do have to agree here. As much I like the class, the specializations just make you feel like a fake version of another class. I think adding more uses of the social and mundane identities would help.
Edit: Better yet, have the vigilante talents benefit the social identity rather than only the viligante
More benefits for the social identity are likely coming in the final class. From another thread:
<snip> With the likely addition of general social-specific talents that apply to social identity, it'll make it easier to tag more talents to work in social identity. Can you guys think of any more of them that seem like they're a strong fit (not just things we'd want to have in social identity to be stronger, but things that fit it really well like concealed casting).
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Yeah, I kinda wonder if vigilante might not work better as a prestige class, like master chymist.
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The problem with a trad prestige class, is that unless you are going to start the campaign at level X+1, the characters have to spend X levels with no vigilante powers before you can start your campaign. And since Vigilante really feels like it best fit for a campaign where most of the players are vigilantes, and missions are focused around intrigue, that could be a real problem.
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The whole mechanic seems forced. Also it does not really seem to accomplish anything.Except for being a foolproof way to completely thwart divination magic that tries to connect you to your secret identity?
I mean, seriously, this is a martial class (3/4 spellcasting if you take warlock or zealot) that has an ability that LITERALLY does something that no spell can currently do: foil divination effects so hard that they only pop up as "black." How is that nothing?
This isn't a class that you're going to be able to drop in Shattered Star and have it work, no. But Kingmaker? Hell's Rebels? Wrath of the Righteous? Those are ALL APs where having a secret identity that no one expected would be super useful.
It is a nice ability, but I feel you oversold it incredibly hard. In the hands of an NPC it can be a lot more useful, but with a party there is only so much that can be done when only one of the group has these bonuses to these divination spells.
In addition it only really works if you are in the alternate identity, which is part of the point of this thread, the social identity has little more than the game mechanics of an NPC aristocrat. If the party is doing anything near combat-wise, the character has to be in the vigilante identity or have the effectiveness of an NPC during the combat.
To that point, it is only useful at all in hampering enemies using scry and die tactics while you are not adventuring. Adventure's don't really do that. You might find one or two examples where it does happen, but one or two times over dozens of APs does not make an ability meaningful.
I can safely say that having feather fall 1/day on a character would end up bring more useful to vigilantes. It is a useful ability, but it is so very limited that falling damage is more a threat overall than enemies scrying on you.
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I personally want an archetype that makes you're dual identity wildshape.