Character Death


Advice


If a character dies in your group, what level should they make their new character? What if their old character didn't die, but they want to make a new one? I have a few players whose characters have died or who want to move onto a new character. Previously I've let them come in at no penalty, but I feel they've been abusing this, should I make them come in at a level below or even level one as they're a low level party (2nd & 3rd level).


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If they're no longer treating death (or character swap) as any meaningful shift, consider changing the story consequences. Give existing PCs benefits only they can use (such as friendly NPCs or attuned magic items).

Also consider talking to them. Solves, like, 80% of problems on this subforum (the other 20% are caused by TOZ. No exceptions).


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

If they're no longer treating death (or character swap) as any meaningful shift, consider changing the story consequences. Give existing PCs benefits only they can use (such as friendly NPCs or attuned magic items).

Also consider talking to them. Solves, like, 80% of problems on this subforum (the other 20% are caused by TOZ. No exceptions).

I agree, talking solves nearly everything.

(What's TOZ? I'm fairly new here)


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A terrifying demon that occasionally emerges. It has many faces, but only one half of a soul. It is also remarkably easy to blame for things.


TOZ is another poster, TriOmegaZero. I can't actually remember why I chose him, except that it wouldn't have had quite as much "comedic effect" if I'd chosen the more standard forum punching bag.


You don't mean the dreaded

Spoiler:
Cosmo
, do you? :O

How exactly have they been abusing it? Are they keeping the equipment of the fallen character in addition to WBL of the new character? Are they being suicidal? What they're doing can have a big impact on what advice you'll get.


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first a fast explenation.
when i game i allow a very broad spectrum of choices. i like them to play the characters the way they think they should. but since this might lead to inside fighting and or overall gaint npc massacre i do inform them that i take no sides. they rip what they make. if they can get away with murdering & rubbing the king and blaming it on some1 else- gratz. but im not making it easier on them in or out. and they should expect other peple to react LOGICLY.

that aside, if a player dies in my game out of sheer unluck and or "normal" adventure risks (as in the big bad evil guy got him with that finger of death etc) he can start his new character with about the same level and maybe even the welth they had. the same goes for some1 new who didn't know what the hell he was doing when he built his toon and now he want to get a new ungimped one.

BUT..if they died out of their own sheer acts - they decided that they can take on the king and his royal gaurd, they leap off the cliff for fun run int ovolcano's etc. they will start a level lower then the avrage of the party.
reasons are, 1st they tend to take time out off of every1 elses to get their new characer started, i had some1 who keep killing himslef "steal" hours of game time for his new characters doing this. it can put a dent on actual game time.
the other resons would be welth passing on to other characters, actuly putting some kind of restarint on my more nuklier players and of course the fact that when i ask 5 times "are you sure?" should have some meaning other then "go right ahead".


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Cuuniyevo wrote:
How exactly have they been abusing it? Are they keeping the equipment of the fallen character in addition to WBL of the new character? Are they being suicidal? What they're doing can have a big impact on what advice you'll get.

This. I'm curious what the situation is too.

Personally, I can't think of a decent reason to punish a player after you've already killed their character.

In 2E it wasn't such a big deal, but in Pathfinder the game is kind of based on the party being the same level and the CR of the encounters being based on the party level and what not.

You can bring them in lower... cost them gear... equiptment... but really I don't see that as hurting the player so much as the whole party... and really leads down a road to where multiple people stop having fun.

My general philosophy is to let people play the characters they want. If they die or get bored with them... bring in someone else the same level... Shouldn't upset the game enough to be a problem.


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A penalty for new chars is a bad idea in my opinion.


Ah, yes so here's the laydown. Basically if you saw all my threads about multiple characters over the last month or two that can all be attributed to one player. In our first few sessions he was a broodmaster summoner until that no longer suited him. He then wanted to do a custom build for a summoner, but that only satisfied him for a session. Then I told him that he'd better just go with something in the rules so he picked a synthesist. That lasted one session as well, after which he decided that summoner wasn't right for him. We then went through several iterations of characters in the week between that session and the next session: first an entobian dervish dancer bard, then he wanted some custom speed because 40ft wasn't enough, then a lizard-folk investigator, then some more stuff he wanted, then a custom race was created for the investigator based on the tenno (24RP) for a second level character, then he changed the race to match a slug from some space game, then he changed it back to the tenno. I've since told the group that new characters come in at a level below the party level due to these shenanigans. The problem is that he usually holds all the treasure, as he says he is the party's 'quartermaster.' So he's fine for treasure but the rest of the party isn't. To help with that I'm going to do automatic bonus progression. Now there's a player who is bored of playing fighter characters as he's currently a sword-saint samurai, and now wants to be an oracle. I've let him do that although on one hand he hasn't been causing the problem, although I said that new characters come in at -1 level. The party is okay with him being equal to them though. Where do I draw the line?

Sczarni

I solved this problem by not penalizing players in their character creation, but instead by giving the existing characters special powers, traits, hero points, NPC connections and unique magical items. New characters would start only with default gold and statistics, and are limited in what they can buy. Giving characters free reign in what they can buy is recipe for trouble because they can buy anything they want. A level 4 wizard might spend 4000 gp for headband of intellect +2 from his 6000 gp, which is unrealistic. At that level, it's unlikely for party to find such expensive magical item.

Adam

Sczarni

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magispitt wrote:
Where do I draw the line?

If the players are giving you trouble due to constant character changing, talk with them and explain your concerns. Talking always fixes everything in most of cases, but if it does not, you can outright ban character changing for some period of time. It's exhausting as it is to keep introducing new characters as a GM every new game. If they cannot understand that, then the problem aren't the rules, but social etiquette.


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Honestly, I'd bust out the brass knuckles and 'dust him off' a few times. I had a player that did this, wanted concessions, and pouted when I didn't buckle to unreasonable requests. He didn't last all that long. Wanting to retire a character and try out something is fine. Character death happens and it's often a way to put on a new hat. Abusing the system for party wealth gain or being wholly indecisive is annoying. but all of this difficulty a social issue, maybe due to catering to him.

An ideal way to do this is let him know that he gets 1 more buy in for a character so he needs to stick with something. After that it's base gear, core classes, core races, 20pt buy (or 5pts less than whatever you are running). If it keeps up, half starting wealth.

Suggest that someone else hold the loot after X's next untimely demise. Party quartermaster is a trusted position after all and why the hell would you trust the 'new guy' with your hard earned adventuring swag. Hell, in my groups we don't usually give new characters names until their second week (in game) on the trail.


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Being down a level isn't fun for anyone, and I wouldn't recommend that as a solution to your issue; remember that with the way XP works in Pathfinder, you will always be down a level, forever and ever. The only thing as bad as being the weak link in the party is being the one who has to carry the weak link in the party.

All that being said, it sounds like the summoner player is being abusive and unreasonable. This is to be expected, because he plays summoners. Without knowing the guy personally I can't recommend how to deal with him, though I certainly wouldn't punish the Samurai-Turned-Oracle for the Summoner's transgressions.


magispitt wrote:
Ah, yes so here's the laydown. Basically if you saw all my threads about multiple characters over the last month or two that can all be attributed to one player. In our first few sessions he was a broodmaster summoner until that no longer suited him. He then wanted to do a custom build for a summoner, but that only satisfied him for a session. Then I told him that he'd better just go with something in the rules so he picked a synthesist. That lasted one session as well, after which he decided that summoner wasn't right for him. We then went through several iterations of characters in the week between that session and the next session: first an entobian dervish dancer bard, then he wanted some custom speed because 40ft wasn't enough, then a lizard-folk investigator, then some more stuff he wanted, then a custom race was created for the investigator based on the tenno (24RP) for a second level character, then he changed the race to match a slug from some space game, then he changed it back to the tenno. I've since told the group that new characters come in at a level below the party level due to these shenanigans. The problem is that he usually holds all the treasure, as he says he is the party's 'quartermaster.' So he's fine for treasure but the rest of the party isn't. To help with that I'm going to do automatic bonus progression. Now there's a player who is bored of playing fighter characters as he's currently a sword-saint samurai, and now wants to be an oracle. I've let him do that although on one hand he hasn't been causing the problem, although I said that new characters come in at -1 level. The party is okay with him being equal to them though. Where do I draw the...

Is this bothering anyone else at the table? Personally, I would reinforce the Roleplaying aspect of the game. Which means that NO the newest guy to the group doesn't always get to hold the treasure...

I would base the game more on the 2-3 characters who are consistent, and just treat whatever this guy is doing as the random guest appearance or 2nd-class character. I wouldn't waste any precious time designing plots or weapons or anything for him... because it would be a waste of time.

Other than that... I've played a few characters that were more fun on paper then in the game (though I have never done what HE'S doing... )

I guess I'm still not seeing the gamebreaking problem unless it's a case of party cohesion... It must be tough for a party to randomly adopt anything and everything every other week... (space slug??? REALLLY?!?!)

I think if there is one player giving problems... talk it over with him. It doesn't seem a big enough problem to justify over reaching houserules penalizing a character swap.


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magispitt wrote:
Basically if you saw all my threads about multiple characters over the last month or two that can all be attributed to one player.

(Sorry for Thread Necro)

If it's just one player making a new character every week, maybe that's his favourite part of the game. Maybe you should try letting him be DM? If he's not into DMing (or you don't want to drop the current campaign) maybe ask him to design a few NPC's, monsters and villains. This might scratch that creative itch and he might be happier to stick to one character.

Shadow Lodge

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Also consider talking to them. Solves, like, 80% of problems on this subforum (the other 20% are caused by TOZ. No exceptions).

And you can't solve me so easily.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
magispitt wrote:
Ah, yes so here's the laydown. Basically if you saw all my threads about multiple characters over the last month or two that can all be attributed to one player. In our first few sessions he was a broodmaster summoner until that no longer suited him. He then wanted to do a custom build for a summoner, but that only satisfied him for a session. Then I told him that he'd better just go with something in the rules so he picked a synthesist. That lasted one session as well, after which he decided that summoner wasn't right for him. We then went through several iterations of characters in the week between that session and the next session: first an entobian dervish dancer bard, then he wanted some custom speed because 40ft wasn't enough, then a lizard-folk investigator, then some more stuff he wanted, then a custom race was created for the investigator based on the tenno (24RP) for a second level character, then he changed the race to match a slug from some space game, then he changed it back to the tenno. I've since told the group that new characters come in at a level below the party level due to these shenanigans. The problem is that he usually holds all the treasure, as he says he is the party's 'quartermaster.' So he's fine for treasure but the rest of the party isn't. To help with that I'm going to do automatic bonus progression. Now there's a player who is bored of playing fighter characters as he's currently a sword-saint samurai, and now wants to be an oracle. I've let him do that although on one hand he hasn't been causing the problem, although I said that new characters come in at -1 level. The party is okay with him being equal to them though. Where do I draw the...

I don't believe in basing universal guidelines on extreme hard cases like your player. Some things need a case by case answer.


First off, you have a bunch of problems that really have nothing to do with dying or retiring characters. One player 'being the quartermaster' and having all the treasure. The same player demanding special custom races, classes archetypes and never being happy with them. Solve those problems individually, and I expect that everything else will work out a whole lot better.

As for character levels, the goal is to have a team game where everyone feels that they can equally contribute to the groups success. Since so much of a characters power is tied up with their level, this become more difficult if you have characters of different levels. Based on that, 'penalizing' someone with a lower level probably isn't going to make the game more fun.

I fully get the idea that you want a consistent story and for things to matter for the characters and the players as the campaign progresses, and a rotating cast of stars makes telling a story pretty difficult. That said, that is less important than making sure someone is actually enjoying the character they are playing.

My suggestion for making a player less likely to want a new character is to make sure there is some in game reward for having stuck around. I don't mean money or power, but simple things like the barkeep recognizing the heroes that have been there, and offering a round on the house. Feeling your character is respected and part of the world is a great reason to keep playing them.

For players who really aren't happy, have some generous chances to rebuild, perhaps even offering a special artifacts or something to an unhappy player that lets a character keep personality and memory, but with a complete new build (race, class stats etc.) to allow game continuity. If you want something less dramatic, having a new player be connected either to the old character or one of your other PCs can help with continuity of story. Old Bucktooth the half-orc warrior has retired unwilling to face the trials of a life of adventure any longer, but his 1/2 sister, Elena the enchantress has heard of your quest and wishes to take his place. Not perfect, but probably better than 'I see you have a gap in your marching order.'


i would say that the new character should be at least be one level lower that the one who died


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Same level. I can think of absolutely no reason to do otherwise.


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The same level unless there is some really good reason otherwise. There are two practical reasons for this: 1) the replacement character almost always takes over the same role as the dead character, and if the player was unable to handle the role with one character without dying a new character at lower level is even more likely to die, 2) it is much harder as a DM to build interesting encounters for parties with characters of diverse levels.

Liberty's Edge

TOZ wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Also consider talking to them. Solves, like, 80% of problems on this subforum (the other 20% are caused by TOZ. No exceptions).
And you can't solve me so easily.

I have a solution to that: It is called a Sphere of Annihilation.


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If the character dies and instead of sticking with it they want to keep starting over (and this is making the game more difficult because of it) either bring them in 1 level below or automatically assign them 2 permanent negative levels. This should be the same as if they had kept their character and been Raised (it can be different if the party is typically at a point to be resurrecting or something else with equivalent penalties.)

Constantly just taking out and bringing in new characters is unbalancing since the party isn't having to pay for healing or raises and then they have a whole dead character of loot to disperse and then a whole new guy with a whole set of starting loot and items.

That's usually the big worry. You've made it clear this isn't a series of one-shots, but a story that you're trying to build and share and this player constantly can't make an effort to fit in. This goes beyond learning or trying something new or realizing a build you thought would work doesn't fit in, it's becoming a distraction and annoyance to the GM and taking his time away from the game and other players.

Obviously this advice is for abusers, not your typical, considerate players.

Grand Lodge

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magispitt wrote:
If a character dies in your group, what level should they make their new character? What if their old character didn't die, but they want to make a new one? I have a few players whose characters have died or who want to move onto a new character. Previously I've let them come in at no penalty, but I feel they've been abusing this, should I make them come in at a level below or even level one as they're a low level party (2nd & 3rd level).

If a character died through valiant action in character I wouldn't penalize them. If they died by jumping off a cliff or some other obviously discontented motivation, I would without a doubt both talk to them, and have them come in at a lower level.

Jumping off a cliff punishes every other party member. Being an ass in play punishes every other party member. Not being happy with the character YOU created and playing in a self-destructive manner punishes every other player! You are lucky you are still in my game!

If the player approaches you and asks about changing character that is an entirely different matter. Ask the player to develop a new character concept with a detailed background, and to continue playing the current character until you are satisfied it is something they really want to play.

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