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I was looking for info on a scenario I had just played and came across a wiki with the contents of chronicle sheets. I know it's frowned upon to openly share that information, but I also know that that information is usually freely given behind spoiler tags whenever someone asks for it. I clicked around for a bit and the site looks relatively new--it only has maybe a dozen scenarios.
So what are your guys' thoughts on this site? Is this something that Campaign Management is going to tolerate? Is a tool like this helpful/hurtful toward PFS?
Personally, I like the idea of it, but that's just me and I know I can trust myself to not abuse it. Thoughts?
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Some people seem to think it is a wrong on par with stealing cars.
Honestly, I've never seen a problem with it. Why does it hurt me if JimmyJoeBob brings Dofus the wonder magus to my table because he knows there is a mask that will work perfectly with his specialization? He's trying to succeed, else he wouldn't get the mask either. So his determination to get it makes us all more likely to succeed. Not a problem to me. Plus your not really stopping that kind of thing anyway. Players talk about what they've gotten anyway, some guys have played lots of scenarios, some have GM's others. A lot of people are making those plans anyway, even if they don't specifically admit it on the forums.
Additionally, I've found it particularly disappointing that I have never gotten a chronicle sheet with something kool/interesting/useful/unique with a character that can use it.
New familiar option - inquisitor
Sneaky social skills item - paladin
Intelligent shield - kensai
Mythic weapon - sorcerer
The only way, I can have any of those things on the PC they work for is to GM the scenario. I don't mind GM'ing. However he has it, but didn't win it. I want to be able to say my PC has the Gauntlet of Zyfon because he wrested it from the dying grip of the evil Malignaton, nearly dying in the process. Three guys were unconscious, yet the team persevered and managed to save the princess... Nope. I GM'd the scenario where some other guys who played pretty badly and failed the mission, so I applied it to this guy. {yawn}
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I doubt this is a copyright issue.
Chronicles are funny. Players (as GMs) are, by the very structure of the game, permitted to hand them out to players upon completion of a scenario. This alone likely makes them permissible to share, in general.
I do not believe that copyright law makes the distinction between whether a player fulfills a scenario or not - copyright law will not care about the rules of this (or any) game. It will only care about whether we have the legal right to share the document or not. Since we do have Paizo's permission to share chronicles after a scenario's completion, I believe copyright law will state that we then have the right to share them wherever we want. Being legally allowed to distribute a document is all or nothing - you can't craft copyright to state "Only legally distribute to individuals who have completed Defeat the Ravaging Monkey Hordes A-04".
Note: this is arm-chair no-law-degree lawyering, and I fully admit that I am speculating.
This 'new' website will not be popular or well received, though. A year ago when I was just conceiving of the Tabletop Giant website, I made the mistake of blithely asking if anyone might know how to get access to all copies of chronicle sheets on a Facebook forum. I knew I'd want copies of the chronicles eventually, as I want to be able to integrate chronicle sheet rewards automatically when a character submits that they've completed a scenario. Anyway - my explanation in that forum came out sounding weak, and folks soon decided I was nefarious and wanted to make a "cheater" website. Wow, was I roasted! Understanding that - the makers of this new website are going to get pelted with rocks and garbage if they ever stick their heads above the woodwork.
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It's not an actual self-hosted website. It's just something up on one of those free wikis.
Again, this isn't me trying to defend it, but I don't have any specific problems with it. I'm just wondering what everyone else's thoughts are. Like, I know there are threads that give this information out (see the "what scenarios have tech items thread")--sure, they're hid behind spoiler tags, but it's essentially the same thing. I've also asked for how much gold a specific scenario gives out before because I didn't have my chronicle sheet with me and needed to plan my purchases before gaming and had some downtime at work. This is pretty much the same thing but on a grander* scale.
*potentially grander. Like I said, it's pretty empty right now
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It's not an actual self-hosted website. It's just something up on one of those free wikis.
Ahhh - then here's a point.
If those wikis are like the big-big wikipedia, then anyone can edit them. If players don't like that chronicles are freely posted there, then they may be able to get them removed. I haven't messed with wiki's much more than most people, but I know they are malleable to the public.
Edit:
Again, this isn't me trying to defend it, but I don't have any specific problems with it.
You know - I don't either. What is or isn't on a Chronicle is one of the least important things to me in deciding to play a game. I'm more interested in whether 1.) have I played this scenario before and 2.) who did I get to play with?
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So bringing attention to the fact that this exists made it pretty easy to find just by searching, and it's worth noting that they only have a handful of chronicles spoiled at this point (24 to be percise, less then I've personally played).
As far as editing things away goes, wikis have change logs, which makes it easy to see what was done and change it back, plus they can ban people from editing or set it to require registration to edit.
While not defending the site, I will say this, at least they are not spoiling the actual scenarios, just the rewards.
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What's the link to the site? Hard to tell if it breaks rules or not, if we can't see it.I'll PM you it, but it most certainly is something that is frowned upon.
Thank you.
I doubt it breaks copyright or IP laws as its not copying trade dress and such.
But it certainly violates the spirit if not the actual rules of organized play. I've referred this to Mike, so thank you.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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First IANAL
Looking at my copy of one of the scenarios, the copyright issue is kind of weird. The copyright is missing the usual disclaimer for this type of product, where it says "the following pages may be copied and distributed for the following purposes."
Ordinarily, that would make it impossible to distribute chronicle sheets, however, the product and the web site selling it have instructions requiring you to distribute those pages, thus, if I remember correctly, that creates an implied consent that supercedes the copyright notice.
But I am starting to understand why some print shops won't print paizo products.
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There is a general 'rule' against cherry-picking scenarios...
...Playing specific scenarios for specific items to 'make' a build...
I've never really seen the big issue with this... I understand that there is the potential for abuse, but playing 'blind' you might end up with boons that have no effect for PC X but would have been awesome on PC Y.
Spoiler:The Quest for Perfection grants access to an Axebeak as a Mount.
I have it on a Gunslinger...GMs regularly choose the PC that will get the most use out of the items/boons.
I don't really see the big difference myself...
Campaign leadership has made a big push to address the spoilered problem. Notice in seasons 5 and 6 how often the boons are "if one of your characters possesses chronicles granting x, y, or z. . ." or similar.
Letting GMs choose the character to apply to has been specifically stated by leadership as a deliberate choice to encourage GMing.
I have seen a character deliberately cherry-picking scenarios. The player started during season 5 and purchased all the previous seasons, then went through and picked out the ones that gave him the biggest mechanical advantages to sign up for. I sat at a convention table with him and he made no bones about what he had done (though he did claim he hadn't read the scenarios, just the chronicles). A player that does this kind of thing is already going to be a min-maxer but he took dominating combats to a whole different level. Not much fun for the rest of the table.
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... I understand that there is the potential for abuse ... ...The player started during season 5 and purchased all the previous seasons, then went through and picked out the ones that gave him the biggest mechanical advantages to sign up for. I sat at a convention table with him and he made no bones about what he had done (though he did claim he hadn't read the scenarios, just the chronicles). A player that does this kind of thing is already going to be a min-maxer but he took dominating combats to a whole different level. Not much fun for the rest of the table. ...
I understand why that was no fun. But given that player and his personality, Do you think denying him the chronicle info would have suddenly made him a team player who wasn't trying to win bigger than everyone else? I'm guessing not.
So his knowing what was on the chronicle sheet to cherry pick scenarios was not the problem. The problem was his attitude and style of play. So trying to prohibit cherry picking wouldn't solve anything, even if it worked, which it doesn't.I suppose you could say the cherry picking made his 'winning' incrementally worse, but certainly not by much. It really isn't hard to build a PC for PFS that out combats the average PC by a substantial margin if you are trying to do that. Oooh he has a +47 instead of the +45 he would have had without cherry picking. Big deal.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I have seen a character deliberately cherry-picking scenarios. The player started during season 5 and purchased all the previous seasons, then went through and picked out the ones that gave him the biggest mechanical advantages to sign up for. I sat at a convention table with him and he made no bones about what he had done (though he did claim he hadn't read the scenarios, just the chronicles)
I would refuse to GM for such a player, and I wouldn't be shy about it. I don't care how much of a scenario you've read, if you've read any of it, and the Chronicles give away enormous spoilers, any you didn't have a good reason (GMing is a good reason), then you've cheated, and I don't want cheaters at my table.
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This gets a little muddied when you consider replaying in Core.
I have a "Hellknight" statted up and the scenarios he'll play all mapped out. Core kind of gives me a second chance to play thematic scenarios with the appropriate characters, and that sometimes means getting the uber-paladin-sword-of-uberness for your uber Paladin, whereas before you were just sitting down at a table with whatever character you happened to have in range.
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and that sometimes means getting the uber-paladin-sword-of-uberness for your uber PaladinDoes this really actually happen? Most loot on chronicles is pretty terrible for the level at which you see it. It is very rarely something you probably couldnt just buy with fame anyway. Even if it is something unique to the chronicle often it is priced in a way which makes it far better simply to buy something standard out of existing resources.
Outside of higher caster level scrolls and potions or partially charged wands I have yet to see much worth the cost on a chronicle I couldnt already buy with fame.
Rarely for actual power reasons, but abit for theme reasons. Also there are a few that are very nice and/or have something that you just can't spend gold to get.
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Does this really actually happen? Most loot on chronicles is pretty terrible for the level at which you see it. It is very rarely something you probably couldnt just buy with fame anyway.
There were some very interesting items for my gunslinger on the chronicle from the scenario that we both played on Sunday.
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I can see how it would be beneficial in Core where that equipment would otherwise be unavailable but the most expensive thing on that sheet costs 19250 with most costing 10k or less. All but one item can be bought by anyone with the resource and 27 fame, as a 5-9 most characters are likely to have that already or be very close to it.Does this really actually happen? Most loot on chronicles is pretty terrible for the level at which you see it. It is very rarely something you probably couldnt just buy with fame anyway.There were some very interesting items for my gunslinger on the chronicle from the scenario that we both played on Sunday.
The items I was talking about aren't in Additional Resources, so fame doesn't enter into it (that PC already has fame in the low 30s).
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I play PFS with the sole goal of having fun, and that can easily be accomplished at a table where someone knows what's going to happen.
The story you quoted mentioned that this was 'not much fun for the rest of the table' (unfortunately this part wasn't quoted further down the thread).
PFS is a very niche hobby that gains it's success by being inclusive as possible.
Is it worth being inclusive to someone with a toxic play-style, if it pushes away the other players at the table, potentially for good?
My opinion aligns with Chris Mortika on this one. Hopefully this thread has clarified, for anyone that wasn't aware, that chronicles are considered part of the scenario they belong to, and shouldn't be sought out prior to playing that scenario (except with good reason, e.g. prepping to GM).
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Doesn't sound particularly helpful to PFS as an organization as a whole. Interestingly enough, PFS is a very niche hobby that gains it's success by being inclusive as possible. When I'm running a game, I couldn't care less if a player has read through the scenario... so long as everyone at the table is having a good time. If I've read or played a scenario before, I simply leave the actual decision making up to someone who hasn't and I follow along for better or worse. However, I play PFS with the sole goal of having fun, and that can easily be accomplished at a table where someone knows what's going to happen.I would refuse to GM for such a player, and I wouldn't be shy about it. I don't care how much of a scenario you've read, if you've read any of it, and the Chronicles give away enormous spoilers, any you didn't have a good reason (GMing is a good reason), then you've cheated, and I don't want cheaters at my table.
I have seen a character deliberately cherry-picking scenarios. The player started during season 5 and purchased all the previous seasons, then went through and picked out the ones that gave him the biggest mechanical advantages to sign up for. I sat at a convention table with him and he made no bones about what he had done (though he did claim he hadn't read the scenarios, just the chronicles)
Let me just sum up multiple years of threads with their conclusion: GMs are not martyrs who must suffer through bad players. A GMs ability to have fun is just as important as the players. Though most of the time we are open to all players and will attempt to work through a particular players quirks, if a player crosses the line, they can choose to not GM for that player. I have seen players banned from locations and I have seen GMs walk rather than GM a particular player. I have also seen easy more GMs put up with borderline behavior for the sake of society. It is ultimately a personal GM call.
Doesn't sound particularly helpful to PFS as an organization as a whole. Interestingly enough, PFS is a very niche hobby that gains it's success by being inclusive as possible. When I'm running a game, I couldn't care less if a player has read through the scenario... so long as everyone at the table is having a good time. If I've read or played a scenario before, I simply leave the actual decision making up to someone who hasn't and I follow along for better or worse. However, I play PFS with the sole goal of having fun, and that can easily be accomplished at a table where someone knows what's going to happen.I would refuse to GM for such a player, and I wouldn't be shy about it. I don't care how much of a scenario you've read, if you've read any of it, and the Chronicles give away enormous spoilers, any you didn't have a good reason (GMing is a good reason), then you've cheated, and I don't want cheaters at my table.
I have seen a character deliberately cherry-picking scenarios. The player started during season 5 and purchased all the previous seasons, then went through and picked out the ones that gave him the biggest mechanical advantages to sign up for. I sat at a convention table with him and he made no bones about what he had done (though he did claim he hadn't read the scenarios, just the chronicles)
In the story quoted above the other players did not seem to have had the fun they came expecting. And it was because of the one player who read the (or part of the) scenario.
So he kept other players from having fun.
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This gets a little muddied when you consider replaying in Core.
I have a "Hellknight" statted up and the scenarios he'll play all mapped out. Core kind of gives me a second chance to play thematic scenarios with the appropriate characters, and that sometimes means getting the uber-paladin-sword-of-uberness for your uber Paladin, whereas before you were just sitting down at a table with whatever character you happened to have in range.
Given one of the named goals of Core Campaign is to let players play scenarios over again on a sort "Game+" or "Hard Mode" by having only Core options available to them, I think this is just fine. While Core makes early scenarios simpler, higher level ones become that much deadlier as they integrate non-core material to use against the PCs. This model assumes you've probably already played and/or GM'd a lot of things before you do them in Core. So have your sword; you're still playing with very limited tools that limit the character in other ways. The benefit is fairly small at this point and an expected part of Core mode by design. You're also not going out of your way to find out info about the scenario ahead of time.
That's different than taking a PC already using available additional resources, reading Chronicles ahead of time without any context for having played the scenario before or GM'd it except to do so, and then using that to double-down on a highly optimized PC by gunning for whatever item/boon/etc. they're after. Worse, if they are specifically playing Scenario Y to get boon X for befriending NPC Z, they are going to bend over backwards to make sure NPC Z likes them in ways they may not have otherwise.
I don't really want this at any table I run. I want it less at tables I play, because as a previous poster noted, this kind of behavior often goes hand in hand with PCs who do not make for a fun table experience.
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that sometimes means getting the uber-paladin-sword-of-uberness for your uber PaladinDoes this really actually happen? Most loot on chronicles is pretty terrible.
I have yet to see much worth the cost on a chronicle I couldnt already buy with fame.
That's why I said this was for a Core character, since the Chronicle Sheets become much more relevant. But even in regular play there are many interesting Chronicles that grant access to:
- Special Materials (the Skymetals come to mind)
- Intelligent items (at least 3, maybe more)
- Free items (worth up to X gold)
- Custom items (artifacts, piecemeal armor)
- Restricted items (want to look like a Red Mantis Assassin?)
- Restricted Familiars (several of these)
- Restricted Animal Companions (a couple of these)
- Restricted spells (super useful in Core)
- Thematic Boons (Hellknight-related, in my case)
- Or act as a precursor to another scenario
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Everything you listed sounds like drama to me, and ultimately things that would detract from my enjoyment of the hobby. Also, none of those things sound beneficial to PFS as a whole. To each their own, I suppose.Doesn't sound particularly helpful to PFS as an organization as a whole. Interestingly enough, PFS is a very niche hobby that gains it's success by being inclusive as possible. When I'm running a game, I couldn't care less if a player has read through the scenario... so long as everyone at the table is having a good time. If I've read or played a scenario before, I simply leave the actual decision making up to someone who hasn't and I follow along for better or worse. However, I play PFS with the sole goal of having fun, and that can easily be accomplished at a table where someone knows what's going to happen.Let me just sum up multiple years of threads with their conclusion: GMs are not martyrs who must suffer through bad players. A GMs ability to have fun is just as important as the players. Though most of the time we are open to all players and will attempt to work through a particular players quirks, if a player crosses the line, they can choose to not GM for that player. I have seen players banned from locations and I have seen GMs walk rather than GM a particular player. I have also seen easy more GMs put up with borderline behavior for the sake of society. It is ultimately a personal GM call.
To each their own indeed. Ultimately as a player and as a GM you are there to have fun.