Is it common for GMs to disallow take 10 / take 20?

[thejeff]

Chris Mortika wrote:

One rule I enforce in PFS is that a shirt or Character Folio is only good for a re-roll. It's a fine technical line, but I don't allow players to use the re-roll to reverse their decision to Take 10.

GM: You see before you a gorge, perhaps 15 feet across.

Jumping George: I leap across. I take 10, for a 19.

GM: You're in chain mail. Are you taking the -5 armor penalty into account?

Jumping George: Ah, no. So, it's a 14. I suppose I will have to roll for it.

GM: Good thing to remember next time. Now, you scramble to make the last foot of the jump, but your fingers can't gain purchase. ...

That's pretty damn harsh for forgetting a modifier and realizing it changes their chances.

Of course, I wouldn't actually want a reroll in those circumstances. I'd want to change my action when I realized my modifier was wrong. Rig a safety line, take the armor off, use magic instead. Something.

But then I'm pretty lax about not holding characters to exactly what the player said when I realize the player missed something about the situation.

[Chess Pwn]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

If you want an answer to your questions, reread the previous replies. Your interpretation is in the board post. Not in the raw. There is more than one way to read raw that makes sense (and the other way makes a LOT more sense) If you want to take 10, print the post. If you want to try those arguments without it... good luck.

What other correct interpretations are there? What in RAW doesn't support my interpretation? What other "reading of raw" is there that you're saying makes more sense?

[N N 959]

thejeff wrote:

But then I'm pretty lax about not holding characters to exactly what the player said when I realize the player missed something about the situation.

I absolutely don't penalize players for something they forgot but their character would intuitively know. If GMs are going to draw a line between player knowledge and character knowledge, then they have to be willing to accept the character has a ton of IC knowledge about how the world around her works.

[thejeff]

N N 959 wrote:

thejeff wrote:

But then I'm pretty lax about not holding characters to exactly what the player said when I realize the player missed something about the situation.

I absolutely don't penalize players for something they forgot but their character would intuitively know. If GMs are going to draw a line between player knowledge and character knowledge, then they have to be willing to accept the character has a ton of IC knowledge about how the world around her works.

I mean it's possible the character looks at the gorge and thinks back to his athletics training and thinks "I can jump that", forgetting that he did that without the heavy cumbersome armor he's wearing now, but I'd expect him to have done some practice in the gear he's wearing and or at least notice how heavy it is as he takes the first running step.

[trollbill]

Player: I am going to Take 10 to jump across the 10-ft. chasm. Since, by the rules, the DC for jumping 10 feet is 10 and I have a +5 to my jump check then I auto succeed.
GM: You can't Take 10 because there is a danger of falling.
Player: There is no danger of falling if I Take 10.
GM: Yes, but since I am not allowing you to Take 10, then there is a danger of falling so you can't Take 10.

[Nefreet]

This thread is making me realize how many people don't understand the DCs for jumping.

[Chess Pwn]

trollbill wrote:

Player: I am going to Take 10 to jump across the 10-ft. chasm. Since, by the rules, the DC for jumping 10 feet is 10 and I have a +5 to my jump check then I auto succeed.

GM: You can't Take 10 because there is a danger of falling.
Player: There is no danger of falling if I Take 10.
GM: Yes, but since I am not allowing you to Take 10, then there is a danger of falling so you can't Take 10.

You're not in danger when you make the check. There's danger once you roll low, fail the check, and start to fall, or in other words, there's potential danger, but it's not immediate.

If the GM is able to make houserules then ruling take 10 away is there prerogative.

[BigNorseWolf]

Nefreet wrote:

This thread is making me realize how many people don't understand DCs for jumping.

The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal)

So 5 foot chasm. 5 foot jump. Its distance crossed, not squares you need to move.

Also I'm all for any interpretation that makes math easier.

[Chris Mortika]

thejeff wrote:

That's pretty damn harsh for forgetting a modifier and realizing it changes their chances.

Of course, I wouldn't actually want a reroll in those circumstances. I'd want to change my action when I realized my modifier was wrong. Rig a safety line, take the armor off, use magic instead. Something.

I was going to say something here about players who only remember positive modifiers to their rolls, but that's a bit curmudgeonly for me today.

How strictly I enforce the rules depends on whether I've got new players at the table, who are still learning the rules, or if we're looking at folks whose third PC is already 5th level.

But Take 10 means "I voluntarily give up my chances of rolling a 20, in order to avoid rolling a 1." As other people have said, it doesn't mean an automatic success. Sometimes, people Take 10, and only then find out they needed something higher. Under those circumstances, I enforce consequences.

[Nefreet]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

This thread is making me realize how many people don't understand the DCs for jumping.

The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal)

So 5 foot chasm. 5 foot jump. Its distance crossed, not squares you need to move.

Distance crossed. Yes. All distance crossed. That equates to squares moved.

Moving 5ft puts you in an adjacent square.
Jumping 5ft does the same.

If you move 15ft, you end up 3 squares away.
If you jump 15ft, you end up 3 squares away.

If the chasm is 15ft, you need your total distance crossed to be 20ft.

[Chris Mortika]

I agree with Nefreet.

[Nefreet]

This is further supported by the rules for failing by 4 or less. You still have 4 (or less) feet of the square you were aiming for that you land in, so you can attempt to grab hold of the ledge.

But if you failed by 5 (or more), you didn't make it.

[Drogos]

You'd need the total distance jumped to be 16 ft ime.

[Nefreet]

Drogos wrote:

You'd need the total distance jumped to be 16 ft ime.

Except that movement in Pathfinder is gauged using a 5ft grid.

If the DC you reached was only 16, you're in luck. You can attempt a Reflex save to grab hold of the ledge.

[claudekennilol]

Nefreet wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

One rule I enforce in PFS is that a shirt or Character Folio is only good for a re-roll. It's a fine technical line, but I don't allow players to use the re-roll to reverse their decision to Take 10.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying with your example. Is it that you force them to take 10 after they've given you a wrong number when they already said they were taking 10?

Chris means that re-rolls allow for a re-roll.

If you didn't roll initially, there's nothing to re-.

I understand the rule he's enforcing. But his rule and his example don't have anything in common except that his example mentions taking 10.

One is the player forgetting a modifier on his check (which I don't see how it's possible to forget an armor check penalty, use a better character sheet if that ever happens) and then penalizing a bad situation in which the player knew he could succeed and them reminding that he can't and penalizing him for it. The other is actually a rule.

[Keith Apperson]

Nefreet wrote:

This is further supported by the rules for failing by 4 or less. You still have 4 (or less) feet of the square you were aiming for that you land in, so you can attempt to grab hold of the ledge.

But if you failed by 5 (or more), you didn't make it.

Not saying you are wrong, but this justification seems wrong. If I'm jumping from square one to square three, I need 10 feet to move from center to center, avoiding square two which is a 5*5 foot pit.

That seems to be your interpretation.

Now, if I fall one foot short, I should still jump 9 feet, which would put me, according to your interpretation, grasping at the ledge, when I should have ~2.5 feet between the edge of the pit and the center of the square.

I usually judge that adventurers are competent enough to jump in time to not fall off the ledge, probably in the last foot before falling. Then they only need to clear five feet to get a foot on the opposite side. They still need the amount of movement (10 feet) but not the jump DC to make it from center of square one to center of square three.

Now, I might be incorrect, but your reasoning for why I am seems flawed.

[The Fox]

I used to agree with Nefreet's interpretation. There was a post somewhere, I believe by SKR, that clarified for me that it is only the distance of the gap, not how far you move.

You do still need to have the movement to cover those squares, of course.

You are making your jump as part of the movement. For a 10-foot gap, you start in the center of the square you are in, move 12.5 feet to the edge of the gap, jump 10 feet, land on the other side, and move 2.5 feet to the center of the square you are in. You have moved a total of 25 feet.

[BigNorseWolf]

There's a chart in the PRD

Linky

Long Jump Acrobatics DC
5 feet 5
10 feet 10
15 feet 15
20 feet 20
Greater than 20 feet +5 per 5 feet

a 5 foot jump dc would be impossible by your reading, unless you're supposed to mind the gap... :)

[Drogos]

I completely understand that is how the rules are written. I run them that way in pfs. In my own games as long as the player gets a high enough check to clear the gap, I let it slide. I don't need a character to roll two checks to see if they catch the edge because in real life like the rules are supposed to emulate you can land onto a less than 5 ft space. I use the grabbing save for less than that. Because I prefer a save to come into play when the drama is at its height. I do get that is not the way the game is written probably because writing it my way would prove too wordy.

[Bill Dunn]

Nefreet wrote:

Distance crossed. Yes. All distance crossed. That equates to squares moved.

Moving 5ft puts you in an adjacent square.
Jumping 5ft does the same.

If you move 15ft, you end up 3 squares away.
If you jump 15ft, you end up 3 squares away.

If the chasm is 15ft, you need your total distance crossed to be 20ft.

No you don't. The jump roll tells you how many feet you jumped - period. The grid bits just require you to spend a little bit of other movement to fit the grid. You don't need to make a DC 20 check to jump 15 feet. If you did, wouldn't the skill call that out?

The PF game world isn't a gridded game board. It's a world measured in feet with a grid superimposed on it to make managing certain aspects of adjudicating it easier. If that grid is making things harder, like jumping over a span, don't use it for that determination.

[Chess Pwn]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

There's a chart in the PRD

Linky

Long Jump Acrobatics DC
5 feet 5
10 feet 10
15 feet 15
20 feet 20
Greater than 20 feet +5 per 5 feet

a 5 foot jump would be impossible by your reading, unless you're supposed to mind the gap... :)

You can jump 5ft, it'll just put you in the next square over. Which would be in the pit if there was one.

[thejeff]

Nefreet wrote:

This thread is making me realize how many people don't understand DCs for jumping.

Damned if I know the DCs for jumping. I was relying on the example being right.

If it's an easily calculable DC like that, the GM should tell us. Silly to make everyone figure it out. Especially if there are confusions about how to read the rules.

[Minos Judge]

Nefreet wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

This thread is making me realize how many people don't understand the DCs for jumping.

The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal)

So 5 foot chasm. 5 foot jump. Its distance crossed, not squares you need to move.

Distance crossed. Yes. All distance crossed. That equates to squares moved.

Moving 5ft puts you in an adjacent square.
Jumping 5ft does the same.

If you move 15ft, you end up 3 squares away.
If you jump 15ft, you end up 3 squares away.

If the chasm is 15ft, you need your total distance crossed to be 20ft.

So if I am understanding what you are saying correctly then a 5 ft jump would need to be at least a DC10, because if you cannot land exactly 5 ft away if the hole is exactly 5ft across. The book says that to jump a 5 ft hole it is a dc5. The book only counts the actual impediment not the space you are landing in.

It also does not seem to have any breakdown for jumping less then an increment of less then 5ft to change the DC.

[BigNorseWolf]

Chess Pwn wrote:

You can jump 5ft, it'll just put you in the next square over. Which would be in the pit if there was one.

That would mean that the dc to cross would be ten. The book has the dc listed as 5. So read it the other way, without the squares.

[TriOmegaZero]

Nefreet wrote:

Drogos wrote:

You'd need the total distance jumped to be 16 ft ime.

Except that movement in Pathfinder is gauged using a 5ft grid.

If the DC you reached was only 16, you're in luck. You can attempt a Reflex save to grab hold of the ledge.

If the DC reached was 16 the character can continue to move into the next square, as he has cleared the area where he cannot move through normally.

[TriOmegaZero]

Nefreet wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

One rule I enforce in PFS is that a shirt or Character Folio is only good for a re-roll. It's a fine technical line, but I don't allow players to use the re-roll to reverse their decision to Take 10.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying with your example. Is it that you force them to take 10 after they've given you a wrong number when they already said they were taking 10?

Chris means that re-rolls allow for a re-roll.

If you didn't roll initially, there's nothing to re-.

This particular argument is irrelevant, as the reroll can only happen before you know the results anyway.

[thejeff]

Chris Mortika wrote:

thejeff wrote:

That's pretty damn harsh for forgetting a modifier and realizing it changes their chances.

Of course, I wouldn't actually want a reroll in those circumstances. I'd want to change my action when I realized my modifier was wrong. Rig a safety line, take the armor off, use magic instead. Something.

I was going to say something here about players who only remember positive modifiers to their rolls, but that's a bit curmudgeonly for me today.

How strictly I enforce the rules depends on whether I've got new players at the table, who are still learning the rules, or if we're looking at folks whose third PC is already 5th level.

But Take 10 means "I voluntarily give up my chances of rolling a 20, in order to avoid rolling a 1." As other people have said, it doesn't mean an automatic success. Sometimes, people Take 10, and only then find out they needed something higher. Under those circumstances, I enforce consequences.

You can of course fail Taking 10. You could be Taking 10 on perception against an unknown DC. Or Taking 10 on an Open Locks. Or on an opposed check of some kind.

If the problem is only that you've missed a modifier to your roll and that would have changed the approach, I'd let you change it. Not a reroll because the character failed, but a different approach because the player misunderstood the situation.

If it had just been because of a difference in understanding of the Jump distance rules, as there apparently is from this thread, would you rule the same way?

[Pirate Rob]

While I think DC10 for a running jump over a 5ft gap is more realistic...

I think the rules say it's DC 5.

I also think it's ambiguous enough that Chris/Nefreet's ruling is possible.

Out of curiosity Nefreet, would your ruling change if say one were jumping over a 5ft stream that was centered on a grid line rather than a grid space?

Back to Taking 10 to make that jump:

I don't feel that the rules here are ambiguous. I think there is a correct answer in the case of taking 10 to jump over a pit full of lava, and it is clearly yes.

[Nefreet]

Lots of posts in a few minutes, but let me reply generally.

First, go back and read what I wrote. Two people incorrectly replied to something I didn't say.

The DC to jump 5ft is (5). This would put you in the adjacent square. Yes, there are times where this is all you need to do.

The DC to jump 10ft is (10). This puts you two squares away from where you started, meaning there is one empty square between where you started and where you ended. Whether that square represents a pit or a puddle, you cleared it.

[thejeff]

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

One rule I enforce in PFS is that a shirt or Character Folio is only good for a re-roll. It's a fine technical line, but I don't allow players to use the re-roll to reverse their decision to Take 10.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying with your example. Is it that you force them to take 10 after they've given you a wrong number when they already said they were taking 10?

Chris means that re-rolls allow for a re-roll.

If you didn't roll initially, there's nothing to re-.

This particular argument is irrelevant, as the reroll can only happen before you know the results anyway.

Hmmm. How does that apply when you know the result immediately after rolling the die, even if the GM hasn't said anything yet? Jump distance or any other fixed DC thing for example.

[BigNorseWolf]

Nefreet wrote:

Lots of posts in a few minutes, but let me reply generally.

First, go back and read what I wrote. Two people incorrectly replied to something I didn't say.

The DC to jump 5ft is (5). This would put you in the adjacent square. Yes, there are times where this is all you need to do.

The DC to jump 10ft is (10). This puts you two squares away from where you started, meaning there is one empty square between where you started and where you ended. Whether that square represents a pit or a puddle, you cleared it.

*headscratch* Not making any more sense the third time I'm reading what you wrote.

If you Jumped 5 feet and moved 5 feet you would be over the chasm and falling.... or are you saying you've moved 5 feet and are on the edge or something?

I think you're really, really, overthinking this one.

[TriOmegaZero]

thejeff wrote:

Hmmm. How does that apply when you know the result immediately after rolling the die, even if the GM hasn't said anything yet? Jump distance or any other fixed DC thing for example.

GM discretion.

[N N 959]

Nefreet wrote:

If the chasm is 15ft, you need your total distance crossed to be 20ft.

With all due respect, and acknowledging the lack of accuracy that can arise in the English language, I'd submit you're overlooking the obvious.

The rules are meant to be simple and straightforward. Back in 3.5, the jump chart in the book was meant to reflect the DC's needed by what was written in the scenario. If the scenario said you had to jump a 10ft gap, the idea is you look up 10ft on the chart that's your DC to clear the gap. Regardless of how it can be interpreted, I'm 100% convinced they neither WotC nor Paizo meant for GMs and players to add some additional amount of footage to the DC for the jump.

Tell me, why would the game write 10ft in a scenario, have 10ft on a chart, but expect you to add some additional footage? Doesn't it seem likely that they'd want the GM to look at the distance in the scenario and match that to the distance on the chart?

I've seen this discussion before and it was mind boggling.

[thejeff]

Nefreet wrote:

Lots of posts in a few minutes, but let me reply generally.

First, go back and read what I wrote. Two people incorrectly replied to something I didn't say.

The DC to jump 5ft is (5). This would put you in the adjacent square. Yes, there are times where this is all you need to do.

The DC to jump 10ft is (10). This puts you two squares away from where you started, meaning there is one empty square between where you started and where you ended. Whether that square represents a pit or a puddle, you cleared it.

So the difficulty does depend on where in the grid the thing you're jumping is. If it's a whole square of its own, you need to jump 10', from the middle of one square, over the gap square to the middle of the next square. If it's straddling a grid line, then you'd only need to jump 5', from the middle of one square, over the gap that takes up the rest of that square and part of the next to land just on the other side of it in the second square.

[thejeff]

N N 959 wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

If the chasm is 15ft, you need your total distance crossed to be 20ft.

With all due respect, and acknowledging the lack of accuracy that can arise in the English language, I'd submit you're overlooking the obvious.

The rules are meant to be simple and straightforward. Back in 3.5, the jump chart in the book was meant to reflect the DC's needed by what was written in the scenario. If the scenario said you had to jump a 10ft gap, the idea is you look up 10ft on the chart that's your DC to clear the gap. Regardless of how it can be interpreted, I'm 100% convinced they neither WotC nor Paizo meant for GMs and players to add some additional amount of footage to the DC for the jump.

Tell me, why would the game write 10ft in a scenario, have 10ft on a chart, but expect you to add some additional footage? Doesn't it seem likely that they'd want the GM to look at the distance in the scenario and match that to the distance on the chart?

I've seen this discussion before and it was mind boggling.

Do scenarios with gaps in them list the distance or the DC?

All of this just reinforces my theory that the GM should just give the DC, not rely on a player remembering (or looking up) the details of the skill.

[LazarX]

N N 959 wrote:

In fact, I had one PFS GM on a PbP forum create a house rule in all of his games that you could only T20 once per scenario. The forum coordinator did nothing to stop it.

Did you make a protest? And keep in mind that a forum coordinator on a message board isn't necessarily a PFS coordinator. If you have a problem with how a PFS judge is running games, you need to speak to the PFS VO above that venue, in this case the PFS Online VO's.

[Lab_Rat]

Why are people assuming that just because a character is in a 5-foot square that they must stand in the center of that square and that any action is taken from the dead center?

Can't I start my jump from the edge of my square? Thus rolling a jump check DC of 6 completely clear the adjacent square. Mechanically I would have jumped 6-feet, cleared the 5-ft chasm of doom, and spent 10 feet of movement to do so.

[RainyDayNinja]

Nefreet wrote:

Lots of posts in a few minutes, but let me reply generally.

First, go back and read what I wrote. Two people incorrectly replied to something I didn't say.

The DC to jump 5ft is (5). This would put you in the adjacent square. Yes, there are times where this is all you need to do.

The DC to jump 10ft is (10). This puts you two squares away from where you started, meaning there is one empty square between where you started and where you ended. Whether that square represents a pit or a puddle, you cleared it.

Why can't I jump from one edge of the 5-foot pit to the other edge? Why must I begin and end my jump in the middle of a square?

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[trollbill]

Nefreet wrote:

Lots of posts in a few minutes, but let me reply generally.

First, go back and read what I wrote. Two people incorrectly replied to something I didn't say.

The DC to jump 5ft is (5). This would put you in the adjacent square. Yes, there are times where this is all you need to do.

The DC to jump 10ft is (10). This puts you two squares away from where you started, meaning there is one empty square between where you started and where you ended. Whether that square represents a pit or a puddle, you cleared it.

This reasoning only works if you assume a character can only jump from the middle of the square they are in to the middle of the square they are going to. While the movement rules do seem to support this type of thinking it also creates very wonky situations, i.e. if a 5' chasm is 2.5' into your square and 2.5' into the adjacent square, then the DC to jump it is 5, but if the chasm is in the middle of the adjacent square, then the DC is 10 even though it is still only a 5' chasm.

[Nefreet]

It's interesting to read what people think is "simple and straightforward".

I believe jumping 5ft and landing in your adjacent square is simple and straightforward. Just like walking 5ft.

Others believe that jumping 5ft and landing two squares away is simple and straightforward.

One of these interpretations seems strongly simpler than the other.

[thejeff]

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Hmmm. How does that apply when you know the result immediately after rolling the die, even if the GM hasn't said anything yet? Jump distance or any other fixed DC thing for example.

GM discretion.

Fair enough. Can you use a reroll on an attack roll of 1?

Rhetorical question. But probably a more common situation, so more illustrative.

[Quadstriker]

Yeah, jumping 10 feet to clear a five feet pit. How simple that sounds.

[Lab_Rat]

Stabity Stabity....vanish

EDIT: Oh wait...I must stand in the middle of my square and attempt to stab you in the middle of your square. Can't.....quite....reach....

[Serisan]

Nefreet wrote:

Lots of posts in a few minutes, but let me reply generally.

First, go back and read what I wrote. Two people incorrectly replied to something I didn't say.

The DC to jump 5ft is (5). This would put you in the adjacent square. Yes, there are times where this is all you need to do.

The DC to jump 10ft is (10). This puts you two squares away from where you started, meaning there is one empty square between where you started and where you ended. Whether that square represents a pit or a puddle, you cleared it.

Why does a jump start at the center of a square? Would you start a jump 2.5' prior to the drop-off of a pit?

There seems to be a confusion in the abstraction. If I'm moving 20' in total, but 10' of that is a jump, why would that jump specifically go center-to-center on the imaginary grid?

[TOZ]

Nefreet wrote:

It's interesting to read what people think is "simple and straightforward".

I believe jumping 5ft and landing in your adjacent square is simple and straightforward. Just like walking 5ft.

Others believe that jumping 5ft and landing two squares away is simple and straightforward.

One of these interpretations seems strongly simpler than the other.

I believe jumping 5ft allows you to land on the other side of a 5ft gap and keep going.

Others believe that jumping 5ft requires you to check again to see if you fall into the 5ft gap.

One of these interpretations seems strongly simpler than the other.

[BigNorseWolf]

Nefreet wrote:

It's interesting to read what people think is "simple and straightforward".

I believe jumping 5ft and landing in your adjacent square is simple and straightforward. Just like walking 5ft.

Others believe that jumping 5ft and landing two squares away is simple and straightforward.

One of these interpretations seems strongly simpler than the other.

You're stuck on squares. You say you need a dc 10 to clear a 5 foot gap. The rules clearly say its 5.

The only contradiction there is if you're stuck in a square paradigm where you CAN"T leap from one corner to another. Think outside the box.

If this has to go on any longer (I didn't think it could after I found the chart) it should probably go to the rules forum.

[N N 959]

Nefreet wrote:

Lots of posts in a few minutes, but let me reply generally.

First, go back and read what I wrote. Two people incorrectly replied to something I didn't say.

The DC to jump 5ft is (5). This would put you in the adjacent square. Yes, there are times where this is all you need to do.

The DC to jump 10ft is (10). This puts you two squares away from where you started, meaning there is one empty square between where you started and where you ended. Whether that square represents a pit or a puddle, you cleared it.

I think I see the problem. I would submit you are confusing "distance crossed" with distance moved.

A 10ft gap requires that I move 15ft, but I only need to clear the 10ft gap with a DC of 10*. To clear a 5ft gap, I move 10ft...but only jump 5.

*Technically, if the DC for the 10ft gap is 10, then I'd have to move 25ft: a 10ft running start, a 10ft jump, and 5ft into the next square.

I've always wondered what happens if you run out of movement, mid-jump? Sometimes the game rules are nonsensical in terms of the paradigms they model.

[claudekennilol]

Minos Judge wrote:

The book says that to jump a 5 ft hole it is a dc5.

The book says no such thing. That's why you're having this conversation.

[Chess Pwn]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

Lots of posts in a few minutes, but let me reply generally.

First, go back and read what I wrote. Two people incorrectly replied to something I didn't say.

The DC to jump 5ft is (5). This would put you in the adjacent square. Yes, there are times where this is all you need to do.

The DC to jump 10ft is (10). This puts you two squares away from where you started, meaning there is one empty square between where you started and where you ended. Whether that square represents a pit or a puddle, you cleared it.

*headscratch* Not making any more sense the third time I'm reading what you wrote.

If you Jumped 5 feet and moved 5 feet you would be over the chasm and falling.... or are you saying you've moved 5 feet and are on the edge or something?

I think you're really, really, overthinking this one.

Examples

Y=you
X=pit
L=land

YL
if you jump 5ft you jump to the land next to you
YXL
If you jump 5ft you jump right into the pit. If you jump 10ft you land on the land.
YXXXL
If you jump 5, 10 or 15 ft you jump into the pit. You need to jump 20ft to clear the pit and land in the square after the pit. Thus if you jump 20ft and fail by 1-4 you get the reflex save as you jumped not far enough to keep your footing, but far enough catch the edge of the land square.

[Nefreet]

TOZ wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

It's interesting to read what people think is "simple and straightforward".

I believe jumping 5ft and landing in your adjacent square is simple and straightforward. Just like walking 5ft.

Others believe that jumping 5ft and landing two squares away is simple and straightforward.

One of these interpretations seems strongly simpler than the other.

I believe jumping 5ft allows you to land on the other side of a 5ft gap and keep going.

Others believe that jumping 5ft requires you to check again to see if you fall into the 5ft gap.

One of these interpretations seems strongly simpler than the other.

Fascinating, isn't it?

Someone else mentioned that every time this discussion comes up, it's "mind boggling".

I agree.