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Hello everyone.
I am running a campaign that so far has been a rollicking ball of fun, however I have some conundrums that I hope to get some advice on.
a.) Arcanist/Archmage
b.) Primal Hunter/Marshall Wolf companion
c.) Synthesist Summoner/Guardian
d.) Superstitious Barbarian/Champion, Undead Pixie bard companion.
e.) Dreadborne Paladin(Spell-less, blackblade)/Marshall
1.) My Arcanist selected Flash of Omniscience. After him using this a few times it occurred to me that I had never really had to deal with readily available divination in any of the groups I have run.
I am trying to be fair about this but a lot of games are turning into "Have the arcanist ask questions, and then be ready to ambush/counterattack against whatever fully prepared".
So my question is "Without nerfing him or invalidating his build choice how do I deal with this ability?" also "What information should this kind of divination give, remembering that it cannot be cryptic?"
2.) Also several people have taken Undetectable.
How the heck does this work? Does this mean that the characters with this can stab you in the face and you still cannot know they are there? They can be riding on your back and you do not know?
My barbarian uses this + a ring of spell storing and greater invisibility from the summoner to be a crazy undetectable blender on command.
My arcanist uses a ring of invisibility and this to be basically nonexistent unless using attack spells.
My players are all very fun to play with and I enjoy them immensely, I just want to create a game they can enjoy as well and ensure that I can, as I said, competently deal with all the balls in the air.
Leaving Undetectable aside because the ability is insanely weird: what are some examples of the questions that the Arcanist is asking?
1.) What is the most dangerous situation that we will encounter in the next week?
2.) What is the best way to deal with the situation detected above?
3.) How does the planned actions change the level of danger for this situation?
4.) Who is the most dangerous person we will come into direct physical/magical conflict with in the next week?
Basically asking about every situation that could be a threat at least usually a day ahead and then using additional questions to allow the party to either avoid it or be completely prepared to crush it.
He does get 17 uses of this a day. They also get to refresh spells twice a day.
Ah. That's easy enough.
Basically, set it up so that they dodge out of one fight and into another. What they run into should be easier than what they avoided-- otherwise his ability has no value-- but that doesn't mean it has to be easy.
Alternately, you set it up so that they have to deal with most dangerous enemy-- hostages are probably the simplest way to do this. Again, the answers to his questions should help simplify the situation, but not solve or avoid it outright.
The other fun thing to do, if your campaign can accept it, it has the villain either realize that the PCs are reading the future or do it himself (or both). Things become far more muddled when that happens.
I can see this, but what do I do when he is able to burn 20+ divination's a day and avoid several layers of encounters + protect the hostages before they get kidnapped?
The last bit is what I have been doing but unfortunately they just defeated the major (obvious) enemy and the others are either completely off their radar or deliberately hiding.
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I can see this, but what do I do when he is able to burn 20+ divination's a day and avoid several layers of encounters + protect the hostages before they get kidnapped?
A. Let them. Pathfinder is about cool abilities. some of these wreck up stories and that's what makes them fun.
B. Build parallel meta-campaigns wherein the main campaign is going to be totally wrecked and the real adventure happens between the lines with other encounters and opportunities. Divination is the players ability to see the DM's FIRST plan. There are few ways to legally use divination to see every possible plan, because the infinite possible plans can't be cleanly answered by a god.
C. Add other necessary uses for divination questions. Do the hero have family, loved ones? Are they checking up on them with their divs? No? Sounds like a question the villain asked to his god, shortly before a kidnapping happened.
D. Add reasonable limitations for planar travel. Odin cannot easily see into Loki's domain. If villains go places with little information outflow, higher beings will struggle to get information for players. Shadow realms are great for this.
E. Have villains occasionally play smart. I'm the BBEG and I know I'm a big deal. I probably figured out I'm being divined. I think I'll wait until my spies tell me that I've been divined, and THEN make a pact with a Balor to wreck up some adventurers.
F. Sometimes, have the bad guy himself answer the divination if he's powerful enough. Nothing scares a party more than a powerful villain who willingly admits he's the source of their answers.
eg:
1.) What is the most dangerous situation that we will encounter in the next week?
ME! MWAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAAA!
2.) What is the best way to deal with the situation detected above?
I was once defeated by a powerful alliance of Thyr and Pelor. they crashed a plane into me. Are you gods? MWAAAAHAAAAHAAAAAA
3.) How does the planned actions change the level of danger for this situation?
Thyr died, but I was defeated. I would have killed Pelor too, had he not dashed that plane into me.
4.) Who is the most dangerous person we will come into direct physical/magical conflict with in the next week?
Why don't you come visit me and find out. MWAAAAHAAAHAAA!
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It helps if you read the spell description.
Spending a mythic point allows you to basically use Divination, without the cryptic answer portion.
What your players are (conveniently) not reading is the last line of "divination" spell.
As with augury, multiple divinations about the same topic by the same caster use the same dice result as the first divination spell and yield the same answer each time.
1.) What is the most dangerous situation that we will encounter in the next week?
2.) What is the best way to deal with the situation detected above?
3.) How does the planned actions change the level of danger for this situation?
4.) Who is the most dangerous person we will come into direct physical/magical conflict with in the next week?
These are all basically ONE topic "what is the most dangerous situation we will deal with next week" - once they've asked the first question, that's it, they don't get any more info on the same topic.
ALWAYS read the full spell description and stick with it - it makes you life as a DM easier.
:)
Rory
Leaving Undetectable aside because the ability is insanely weird: what are some examples of the questions that the Arcanist is asking?1.) What is the most dangerous situation that we will encounter in the next week?
2.) What is the best way to deal with the situation detected above?
3.) How does the planned actions change the level of danger for this situation?
4.) Who is the most dangerous person we will come into direct physical/magical conflict with in the next week?
Basically asking about every situation that could be a threat at least usually a day ahead and then using additional questions to allow the party to either avoid it or be completely prepared to crush it.
He does get 17 uses of this a day. They also get to refresh spells twice a day.
I like rweston' s response, and add this:
These are way too broad in scope. Even many of the suggested alternate more specific questions for divination are way too broad. It has to be specific. If the question isn't specific enough, tell them the spell fails. One use gone, would you like to try a different question on a different topic? Remember, specific goal, event, or activity.
Here's a specific question:
When we enter the tavern tomorrow night at 6:00 to capture Captain Black, how many of his henchmen will he have with him? A: There will be between 6 and 10.
Make them do the planning:
Can we rescue the hostages if Grunt and Gore lure Mack the Merciless outside while the rest of us sneak in thru the back? A: Yes but only if you get there before dawn.
Look at their questions. How many possible events will they engage in? Unless they only do one thing and spend the rest of the week hiding, their questions aren't specific so they don't cut it and the spell fails, costing one usage.
I appreciate all of the feedback.
Regarding divination I still have a few concerns however.
1.) Several responses include the idea that questions are too broad, however I try to remember and give leeway on question phrasing due to the fact that while my player has a normal human intelligence, the character is a super genius (26 Int, 11 ranks in all know ledges except Local/History/Geography), and thus would know how to generate a question to get the answer desired.
I do this in the same way that I do not expect my hyper charismatic bard when played by my introvert friend to make great stirring speeches in reality I simply allow them to state the general thrust and then roll perform (Oratory) or for my barbarian player I do not expect her to actually jump 100 feet of swing a giant scythe.
2.) On the "Same topic" idea I am not sure I concur. How specific does a question have to be to not be the same topic? If I ask about my nieces health and she lives with my Brother in his house can I not ask about anyone else due to asking about that house hold? I also really believe that a character with the abilities in question would know and understand how to ask questions in specific enough ways to get at least overlapping tangential information.
Any ideas on how blindsense/blindsight/tremorsense/see invisible interact with Undetectable?
Undetectable is bonkers, creatures can only infer there is something by the effects the undetectable being generates. It might be worth errating to be closer to a mindblank+invis combo, but otherwise there is no getting around it.
You'll have to use extensive resource exhaustion, invisibility purge and dispel traps to overcome it.
I would also rework the omniscience ability, but at the very least allow minkblank to overcome it since it isn't divine in origin. You should also think about/ explore your campaign worlds metaphysics of fortune telling. Golarion fluff is that prophecy is essentially broken and doesn't work very well. You could treat it with Heisenberg like principals -- that divination has an effect upon the divined, it on is impossible to know both the location of timing of an event, measuring one messes up the other, futures could be probabilistic, etc. Consider what would happen if an opponent were using the same ability to thwart or protect themselves against the PCs, would it be last asked gets the best answer, they get unclear/ fuzzy answers, they get attuned and begin hearing each others answers?
Extensive fortune telling could also be considered time perversion, certain aeons frown upon such things.
Convent - certainly didn't mean it to come across that way.
In re-reading my response I see that I came across rather..poorly.
Sorry!
I've found over the years that I usually have to read spell descriptions myself as sometimes players miss rather crucial "paragraphs" from spells, and all of us remember 1st, 2nd, 3rd edition versions of spells rather than sometime important Pathfinder changes - I'm sure my exasperation with that is the source of the tone.
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With regards to the "on topic" I've always looked that the various divination spells as being there to give players assistance in the future by providing one piece of advice - not a foolproof or detailed view of the future.
My reasoning is that the spell itself isn't 100% accurate (reinforcing that the future is a moving target), the spell also notes that If your party doesn't act on the information, the conditions may change so that the information is no longer useful. which implies that the future shifts and changes.
Also the spell calls out that it gives a useful piece of advice regarding the Goal/activity /event you are asking a question about, not an "answer to a question".
The following questions are (in my opinion) very all about the same "topic" - in this case an "Event":
1.) What is the most dangerous situation that we will encounter in the next week?
2.) What is the best way to deal with the situation detected above?
3.) How does the planned actions change the level of danger for this situation?
As one of the posters above said - the line of questioning your players have going is more descriptive of a Commune spell - not Divination.
Your milage may vary, but I see Divination spells more akin to reading the Tarot - "Your will meet a dark foe who is known to you, he is wreathed in mist and casts no shadow, beasts travel with him in the guise of men, I see you armed with Silver as you enter a broken tower"
might be thew result if you have them facing an old vampire foe with werewolf (or werebear or weretiger) companions, also assuming the "broken tower" is someplace they are already going to, or know about.
You'll note that I sort of answered the first two questions in one with my divination answer without getting too detailed.
Hope this helps.
:)
Rory