Slashing grace


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I have a slayer that is using 2 wakaizashi's, level 4 almost 5. I'm thinking about using slashing grace, she is using rogue finesse with TWF. Would I be able to use slashing grace with the Wak's ? It says when using your chosen weapon wielded one-handed. Not when wielding a one handed weapon. I figured I would ask before trying to use it.


Nope. The text is fairly unambiguous:

Slashing grace wrote:
Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword).

It says one handed weapons, and gives a clear example of what it means.

The general purpose of this wording is that it aims to make it hard to use slashing grace with TWF. You have to put more investment in to make it happen. That is the design principle behind TWF and dex based builds in general.


You'll probably get people arguing both ways, though the general consensus is that Slashing Grace is only for one-handed slashing weapons. Is this for PFS? Unless you somehow know your DMs will allow it, I wouldn't bother.

If it's not for PFS, then just ask your DM. I feel most DMs would be cool allowing this. It's not terribly overpowered.

PS: According to rumor, Slashing Grace was only intended to allow you to finesse any one-handed slashing weapon. The Dex to damage was added at the last minute. So the RAI is vaguer than usual, but pretty certainly towards only one-handed slashing weapons.


Nope.

Wakaizashi's are Light weapons, so unfortunately, slashing grace doesn't work for them.

But, in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide (Splat book) there is the Agile weapon ability that lets the weapon do dex to damage.

Peter

edit: Derp... ninja'd while writing this :D


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There is much speculation that Slashing Grace will be changed to allow Dex to damage with light weapons, too.

Pathfinder Unchained hunter at this with the Combat Trick for Slashing Grace.


Xethik wrote:

There is much speculation that Slashing Grace will be changed to allow Dex to damage with light weapons, too.

Pathfinder Unchained hunter at this with the Combat Trick for Slashing Grace.

Speculation, or people just hoping?

Cause every dex to damage option tries, to varying degrees of success, to mess with anything that would let you easily or cheaply use it with dex to damage.

Dervish dance and slashing grace try to make it so you have to use a 1 handed weapon. Dervish dance tries to more directly forbid TWF by going on about the offhand.

Agile, while it can certainly work for a light weapon TWF, is also expensive since you have to pay for both weapons.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

sawtooth sabers


Bandw2 wrote:
sawtooth sabers

extra feats, and a reliance on an extremely specific type of weapon (not exactly a longsword in terms of showing up in weapon drops- that can be a huge concern at some tables)


If dual wielding, there isn't much you can do, you will need to get agile weapons. Even sawtooth sabers do not gain the full benefit of the Slashing Grace fit because as a one handed weapon, it does not qualify for Weapon Finesse.

As it stands, for Slashing Grace to work for anyone other than a swashbuckler, you need to be using a Dueling Sword.

Supposedly there is a backdoor fix to slashing grace in the Unchained book, reflecting what we presume is an errata enabling the use of the feat with light weapons, but until such time as an official release there isn't much we can do.

Deadly Agility is a thing if you are playing at a table that allows 3PP materials. And DSP is almost universally allowed as if it were paizo itself and they have received many commendations from paizo as to the quality of their products.


lemeres wrote:
Xethik wrote:

There is much speculation that Slashing Grace will be changed to allow Dex to damage with light weapons, too.

Pathfinder Unchained hunter at this with the Combat Trick for Slashing Grace.

Speculation, or people just hoping?

There have been several statements from the design team that Slashing Grace will be altered in the ACG errata. Pathfinder Unchained references Slashing Grace in the Combat Trick chapter, and heavily implies that it will be changed to work better with a light weapon. That said, we have no idea of knowing how the feat will be altered, so I'd say it's part hope, part speculation, and part confirmation.


lemeres wrote:


Speculation, or people just hoping?

Mark has hinted that people that want to use the feat for other types of weapons, his example was a Kukri, would be pleased with how the feat was changed. So a bit of both I guess. ;)


lemeres wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
sawtooth sabers
extra feats, and a reliance on an extremely specific type of weapon (not exactly a longsword in terms of showing up in weapon drops- that can be a huge concern at some tables)

Wakizashi aren't exactly common drops either though.

Liberty's Edge

lemeres wrote:

Nope. The text is fairly unambiguous:

Slashing grace wrote:
Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword).

It says one handed weapons, and gives a clear example of what it means.

The general purpose of this wording is that it aims to make it hard to use slashing grace with TWF. You have to put more investment in to make it happen. That is the design principle behind TWF and dex based builds in general.

To be clear you are making an assumption about the purpose of this wording. I'm guessing you have no direct insight into the minds of the design team.

Given the wording for Stamina and Combat Tricks as it relates to Slashing Grace, and posts by Mark, I think you are wrong.


While it seems clear that Slashing Grace didn't turn out the way the designer intended it to (Fencing Grace alone proves that much), we don't know what the intent behind the feat was. Shortly after the ACG was sent out to the subscribers I had one poster tell me that it's phrased the way it is on purpose to encourage the use of specific exotic weapons like the aldori dueling sword, the whip, and the sawtooth saber. On the other hand I've had numerous other posters tell me that "one-handed weapon" was a mistake and it's clearly intended to work with both light and one-handed weapons. Without direct commentary from the author, I'd say that both sides have a valid argument.

However, the way the feat is currently phrased clearly limits it to one-handed weapons - a term used to define a specific group of weapons that resides between light weapons and two-handed weapons in Pathfinder. While it's perfectly fine to rule that Slashing Grace works with light weapons, it would be a houserule.

I suspect the stamina wording was phrased the way it was because the designer of the stamina system was aware of an upcoming change to Slashing Grace, and made sure the combat trick would be compatible with the new version.


master_marshmallow wrote:

If dual wielding, there isn't much you can do, you will need to get agile weapons. Even sawtooth sabers do not gain the full benefit of the Slashing Grace fit because as a one handed weapon, it does not qualify for Weapon Finesse.

As it stands, for Slashing Grace to work for anyone other than a swashbuckler, you need to be using a Dueling Sword.

Supposedly there is a backdoor fix to slashing grace in the Unchained book, reflecting what we presume is an errata enabling the use of the feat with light weapons, but until such time as an official release there isn't much we can do.

Deadly Agility is a thing if you are playing at a table that allows 3PP materials. And DSP is almost universally allowed as if it were paizo itself and they have received many commendations from paizo as to the quality of their products.

Weapon Finesse is not needed for a sawtooth sabre to work. If weapon finesse was like weapon focus and you had to choose weapon finesse(insert weapon) you would be correct, but weapon finesse mean you can use any light weapon.

Slashing grace never says the weapon in question has to be a light weapon in order to get dex to damage. It doesn't even mention getting dex to your attack bonus.


wraithstrike wrote:

Weapon Finesse is not needed for a sawtooth sabre to work. If weapon finesse was like weapon focus and you had to choose weapon finesse(insert weapon) you would be correct, but weapon finesse mean you can use any light weapon.

Slashing grace never says the weapon in question has to be a light weapon in order to get dex to damage. It doesn't even mention getting dex to your attack bonus.

I think you misunderstood Marsh's point with Sawtooth Saber. The saber is not a light weapon or listed on the approved list for Weapon Finesse, and so doesn't work as a Finesse weapon. He could take Slashing Grace: Sawtooth Saber, but he would still use strength to calculate his attack bonus. Since the character in question is clearly using finesse weapons because he has a good dexterity, Sawtooth Saber wouldn be a subpar weapon for him.

The best way to make dexterity combat work with TWF currently is to take one level of swashbuckler for Swashbuckler finesse, then take Slashing Grace with sawtooth sabers. Swashbuckler finesse lets you use your dexterity to hit with sabers. They're one-handed weapons, so they qualify for Slashing Grace. The specific rules on sabers let you treat them as light weapons when calculating the two-weapon fighting rules.

...Or buy Agile weapons, if you're lucky enough to start at a high enough level that that's an affordable option.


Kudaku wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Weapon Finesse is not needed for a sawtooth sabre to work. If weapon finesse was like weapon focus and you had to choose weapon finesse(insert weapon) you would be correct, but weapon finesse mean you can use any light weapon.

Slashing grace never says the weapon in question has to be a light weapon in order to get dex to damage. It doesn't even mention getting dex to your attack bonus.

I think you misunderstood Marsh's point with Sawtooth Saber. The saber is not a light weapon or listed on the approved list for Weapon Finesse, and so doesn't work as a Finesse weapon. He could take Slashing Grace: Sawtooth Saber, but he would still use strength to calculate his attack bonus. Since the character in question is clearly using finesse weapons because he has a good dexterity, Sawtooth Saber wouldn be a subpar weapon for him.

The best way to make dexterity combat work with TWF currently is to take one level of swashbuckler for Swashbuckler finesse, then take Slashing Grace with sawtooth sabers. Swashbuckler finesse lets you use your dexterity to hit with sabers. They're one-handed weapons, so they qualify for Slashing Grace. The specific rules on sabers let you treat them as light weapons when calculating the two-weapon fighting rules.

...Or buy Agile weapons, if you're lucky enough to start at a high enough level that that's an affordable option.

I assumed the player was dipping swashbuckler. Nevermind.


Or, get your GM to let you use a 3rd party feat that totally does away with this nonsense.


CommandoDude wrote:
Or, get your GM to let you use a 3rd party feat that totally does away with this nonsense.

This, basically. I don't normally recommend 3rd party solutions on the Paizo boards, but Dreamscarred's Deadly Agility is an elegant solution to the problem that doesn't require you to jump through ridiculous loopholes like the sawtooth saber to make dex-based combat work.


graywulfe wrote:
lemeres wrote:

Nope. The text is fairly unambiguous:

Slashing grace wrote:
Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword).

It says one handed weapons, and gives a clear example of what it means.

The general purpose of this wording is that it aims to make it hard to use slashing grace with TWF. You have to put more investment in to make it happen. That is the design principle behind TWF and dex based builds in general.

To be clear you are making an assumption about the purpose of this wording. I'm guessing you have no direct insight into the minds of the design team.

Given the wording for Stamina and Combat Tricks as it relates to Slashing Grace, and posts by Mark, I think you are wrong.

I was merely speaking based upon the published material up to that point. Given the wording of a similar feat, dervish dance, combined with the fact that this feat was written for the swash buckler, which is a class that highly encourages the use of 1 weapon/1hand (and in fact salvages that style), it is not that far of a stretch to assume that the highly obtuse nature of restricting it to one handed weapons was due to this purpose.

While it is possible that they may expand its use in the future, that may be due to the backlash over the restrictions on the feat. Plus, while mark may have been entirely for dex to damage on light weapons in the future, that doesn't mean the entire design team was from the get go. It may only be a result of popular opinion that the opposition felt their case was no longer that strong.

Also, just because they are opening slashing grace up to light weapons does not necessarily mean it will make it accessible to TWF builds. The change might simply remove the counter-intuitive nature of its current restriction to larger weapons, and instead it will restrict TWF more directly. Such a switch would be within the scope of the referenced comments (at least as far as I have seen mentioned here), since it would make more sense for it to work on light weapons, and it would remove the current need to be a swashbuckler to get this feat to work properly (without using exotic weapons).

Of course, I will state that this is all speculation, somewhat backed by the evidence of previous dex to damage attempts. I view mixing the fact with my personal perspective as the only mistake in my comment.

Sovereign Court

CommandoDude wrote:
Or, get your GM to let you use a 3rd party feat that totally does away with this nonsense.

If you don't mind OP feats. There should be a significant cost for dex to damage.

(Before anyone throws a hissy fit - I didn't say game-breaking. I said OP. I've proven the math before - I'm not going to do it again here. But if you allow the feat - dex builds become the best combat style in the game in virtually all situations.)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Maps, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber
lemeres wrote:

Nope. The text is fairly unambiguous:

Slashing grace wrote:
Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword).

It says one handed weapons, and gives a clear example of what it means.

The general purpose of this wording is that it aims to make it hard to use slashing grace with TWF. You have to put more investment in to make it happen. That is the design principle behind TWF and dex based builds in general.

Just want to point out that there is one example where slashing grace affects a specific light one-handed weapon as well as a specific one-handed melee weapon. This leads me to believe that an individual can select a slashing one-handed Light Melee weapon or a slashing One-Handed Melee weapon

Advanced Class Guide page 69 under Dwarven Swashbuckler favored class bonus wrote:


Add 1/4 to the swashbuckler’s effective class level to determine the extra damage she deals because of the precise strike deed when wielding a light pick or a heavy pick. If the swashbuckler has the Slashing Grace feat or another similar effect, she can treat the battleaxe or handaxe as a one-handed piercing melee weapon, and she gains this benefit when wielding the appropriate weapon for the feat as well.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
Or, get your GM to let you use a 3rd party feat that totally does away with this nonsense.

If you don't mind OP feats. There should be a significant cost for dex to damage.

(Before anyone throws a hissy fit - I didn't say game-breaking. I said OP. I've proven the math before - I'm not going to do it again here. But if you allow the feat - dex builds become the best combat style in the game in virtually all situations.)

What's the difference and where is the link to your math? I'm not saying you didn't do it, but your numbers may not beb convincing to anyone else.

Do dex builds become the best two-handers?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
Or, get your GM to let you use a 3rd party feat that totally does away with this nonsense.

If you don't mind OP feats. There should be a significant cost for dex to damage.

(Before anyone throws a hissy fit - I didn't say game-breaking. I said OP. I've proven the math before - I'm not going to do it again here. But if you allow the feat - dex builds become the best combat style in the game in virtually all situations.)

"I already proved I'm right somewhere else, so don't you dare ask me to provide evidence to back my assertions, peon!" isn't exactly a persuasive argument.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
Or, get your GM to let you use a 3rd party feat that totally does away with this nonsense.

If you don't mind OP feats. There should be a significant cost for dex to damage.

(Before anyone throws a hissy fit - I didn't say game-breaking. I said OP. I've proven the math before - I'm not going to do it again here. But if you allow the feat - dex builds become the best combat style in the game in virtually all situations.)

Are dex builds still the best for a PC that just wants to be semi-competent in melee, but doesn't want to invest heavily. TWF dex builds are pretty really feat heavy.

To put it simply, if I want to make, for example, a kitsune bard build that only takes maybe 3 feats max related to a weapon and spend the rest on racial feats+lingering performance, am I better off with weapon finesse+deadly agility instead of Power attack+Furious focus or whatever.

Liberty's Edge

Snowblind wrote:

Are dex builds still the best for a PC that just wants to be semi-competent in melee, but doesn't want to invest heavily. TWF dex builds are pretty really feat heavy.

To put it simply, if I want to make, for example, a kitsune bard build that only takes maybe 3 feats max related to a weapon and spend the rest on racial feats+lingering performance, am I better off with weapon finesse+deadly agility instead of Power attack+Furious focus or whatever.

As a Kitsune? Yes, you're better off with Dex, and can get by with 3 Feats (Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility or whatever, and Piranha Strike).

But that's only because Kitsune get a racial penalty to Str and bonus to Dex. For races less handicapped on a Str build, Power Attack alone can make a melee build, and that's thus by far the better Feat-light option.

Now, the above Dex-build (with 3 Feats) is better than the equivalent Str build (with 1), by virtue of vastly superior AC, Initiative, and Reflex Save, but it's also literally three times the Feat investment, and probably does lower damage to boot.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Snowblind wrote:

Are dex builds still the best for a PC that just wants to be semi-competent in melee, but doesn't want to invest heavily. TWF dex builds are pretty really feat heavy.

To put it simply, if I want to make, for example, a kitsune bard build that only takes maybe 3 feats max related to a weapon and spend the rest on racial feats+lingering performance, am I better off with weapon finesse+deadly agility instead of Power attack+Furious focus or whatever.

As a Kitsune? Yes, you're better off with Dex, and can get by with 3 Feats (Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility or whatever, and Piranha Strike).

But that's only because Kitsune get a racial penalty to Str and bonus to Dex. For races less handicapped on a Str build, Power Attack alone can make a melee build, and that's thus by far the better Feat-light option.

Now, the above Dex-build (with 3 Feats) is better than the equivalent Str build (with 1), by virtue of vastly superior AC, Initiative, and Reflex Save, but it's also literally three times the Feat investment, and probably does lower damage to boot.

I shouldn't have used a race that gets a bonus to dex and a penalty to strength. Bad example. My mistake.

Although even then, bards can't get away with a low strength if they want to carry around armor and all their other gear at low levels. Chainshirt+longsword+backup longsword+shortbow+component pouch+40 arrows +4 pounds in misc gear=47 pounds. That requires 13 strength, enough for power attack. I know that by dropping non-essential gear before combat, wearing studded leather, and not carrying ranged + backup weapons it is possible to get by on 9 str or so, but now we are making non-trivial sacrifices to avoid having a decent str. If a 13 or so is needed to get by comfortably, why not buy up to 14 and use a less feat intensive build. It also means that a Str based Kitsune won't be taking damage penalties with a composite bow, which is always nice.

Lets just go with a straight human instead, for simplicity. Which would be better with 2 invested - Weapon finesse + Deadly agility, or Power Attack + X(probably furious focus, unless someone else has a better idea). Don't forget that a dex focused build needs enough str to carry their stuff. 18 dex and 7 str actually has worse AC than 14 dex and 12 str, because the 12 str character can wear a chain shirt. The dex build doesn't win out if carry capacity gets impacted to the point of preventing the use of defensive items.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Snowblind wrote:
I shouldn't have used a race that gets a bonus to dex and a penalty to strength. Bad example. My mistake.

Yeah, let's focus on the general case here.

Snowblind wrote:
Although even then, bards can't get away with a low strength if they want to carry around armor and all their other gear at low levels. Chainshirt+longsword+backup longsword+shortbow+component pouch+40 arrows +4 pounds in misc gear=47 pounds. That requires 13 strength, enough for power attack. I know that by dropping non-essential gear before combat, wearing studded leather, and not carrying ranged + backup weapons it is possible to get by on 9 str or so, but now we are making non-trivial sacrifices to avoid having a decent str. If a 13 or so is needed to get by comfortably, why not buy up to 14 and use a less feat intensive build. It also means that a Str based Kitsune won't be taking damage penalties with a composite bow, which is always nice.

Well, a Str 9 Kitsune can have Dex 18 for the same total price as a Str 14 Kitsune can have Dex 13. Or make that Str 10, Dex 18, Str 14, Dex 14. Either way, I know which of those stat layouts is better, and so should you.

Snowblind wrote:
Lets just go with a straight human instead, for simplicity. Which would be better with 2 invested - Weapon finesse + Deadly agility, or Power Attack + X(probably furious focus, unless someone else has a better idea).

To some extent, that depends on Class, and the restrictions of that Class. If Heavy Armor is available, for example, a lot of the advantages of the Dex build go away. Bards often favor Dex builds simply because they're forever restricted to light armor, for example, while Clerics, with Medium Armor and Heavy only a Proficiency away (they'd grab it along with Power Attack), are less likely to bother.

That said, AC aside, the Str build is flatly superior, especially if you wield a weapon in two hands.

I mean, a Str 10, Dex 18 guy might be doing 1d6+4 at 3rd (1d6+6 if he managed to tack on Piranha Strike), while the Str 18, Dex 10 guy is doing 1d8+9 (more if he has Martial Weapon Proficiencies), and that's with one or two less Feats.

That said, assuming both are Bards, the difference between the Dex Bard's AC 19 (he's using a buckler...why wouldn't he?) and the Str Bard's AC 14 makes up a lot for that (the finesse guy's higher critical range likely helps, too). Which is why the ability to take Heavy Armor makes them so much better.

Let's make them both Investigators (who only start with Light Armor Proficiency, but unlike Bard have nothing preventing taking more), and throw on Medium Armor Proficiency (and Heavy if the Dex guy grabs Piranha Strike). The Dex guy remains unchanged, but the Str guy goes to AC 16 if the Dex guy is doing 1d6+4 and AC 19 if the Dex guy is managing 1d6+6. The Dex guy in that case retains a likely higher Crit range, but that's it.

So...short answer? Str is better (at least at low investment) if you can wear Medium or especially Heavy Armor (and is a progressively lower investment the more armor proficiencies you start with). If Light Armor is all you can manage (likely due to arcane spell failure)? Dex-build might be the way to go.

It's also worth noting that, on non-humans in non-Full BAB classes, neither of these builds gets all the way going until 3rd level (because that's when you get the second necessary Dex-based Feat...r Power Attack), but prior to getting going, the Dex build does, say, 1d6, while the Str one does 1d8+6. So...the Dex build definitely tends to fill out a little later (especially if only using Paizo material, since their Dex-to-damage options have slightly more prerequisites).

Snowblind wrote:
Don't forget that a dex focused build needs enough str to carry their stuff. 18 dex and 7 str actually has worse AC than 14 dex and 12 str, because the 12 str character can wear a chain shirt. The dex build doesn't win out if carry capacity gets impacted to the point of preventing the use of defensive items.

This is simply untrue for the vast majority of a character's life:

Past about 3rd level or so it's very possible (even easy) to get by with Str 7. Mithral Chain Shirt + Handy Haversack + Rapier is 17 lbs and under 4k. The build needs someone else to carry their stuff until about then...but that's a small fraction of their career. Heck, they can probably manage by level 3 if they get everyone to chip in on the haversack (which might well be handy for multiple people).

And that's ignoring Ant Haul, Floating Disc, and Muleback Cords entirely. Plus just ignoring other PCs being willing to help. Frankly, the whole 'encumbrance screws low Str characters' is way overplayed and untrue of anyone with either some spell casting and creativity, or helpful party members.

It is something you need to invest resources into solving, but it's pretty much 2200 gp (for the Haversack) ever, and most Str based folk buy one of those eventually anyway. This is a bit front loaded and one of the reasons (as mentioned above) that Finesse builds usually don't take off quite as quick as Str builds.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

...

This is simply untrue for the vast majority of a character's life:

Past about 3rd level or so it's very possible (even easy) to get by with Str 7. Mithral Chain Shirt + Handy Haversack + Rapier is 17 lbs and under 4k. The build needs someone else to carry their stuff until about then...but that's a small fraction of their career. Heck, they can probably manage by level 3 if they get everyone to chip in on the haversack (which might well be handy for multiple people).

And that's ignoring Ant Haul, Floating Disc, and Muleback Cords entirely. Plus just ignoring other PCs being willing to help. Frankly, the whole 'encumbrance screws low Str characters' is way overplayed and untrue of anyone with either some spell casting and creativity, or helpful party members.

It is something you need to invest resources into solving, but it's pretty much 2200 gp (for the Haversack) ever, and most Str based folk buy one of those eventually anyway. This is a bit front loaded and one of the reasons (as mentioned above) that Finesse builds usually don't take off quite as quick as Str builds.

I guess my main concern with the carrying capacity is that I don't like being in the position where I *have* to have certain items in order to not be severely hindered. Especially on a build that already requires specific items to function.

On top of the stuff you mentioned, you still need 5 pounds for stat boosters+cloak+component pouch. You don't even have the weight capacity left for a buckler (mithral or otherwise) or a crossbow and a quiver of bolts/efficient quiver (you can store the crossbow in the handy haversack, but you will become encumbered when drawing). Being able to carry this stuff means 10 str minimum. Want boots and a hat too...either a mithral buckler or 11 str. If you don't manage to get either the mithral chain shirt or the handy haversack, you are even worse off.

You will probably get this stuff eventually, but the issue is that you have to have them quickly, or else you are in trouble. Without mithral you can't even manage to wear hide armor, and your AC is going to suffer big time. You can use magic to deal with this instead, but then you are stuck either filling slots with items that you are going to have to sell, spending more money combining a load increasing item with a cloak of resistance or whatever (assuming GM permission), or you are forcing other characters to blow their level 1 slots to make up for your character's problems (at level 4 this is actually a big deal). Note that I haven't mentioned anything like food or tents or anything else that you would carry when traveling. I am only talking about things that you need immediately in combat and can't pass off to another party member to carry for you.

The above isn't a deal breaker, but it is one of several problems with dex builds at lower levels. The other problems are that most builds take a while to get going and are atrocious before that. Without dex to damage, a 3/4 bab finesse build ends up doing maybe 1d6+2+weapon enhancement with 10 Str and piranha strike before level 7. This really is not enough. Actually getting dex to damage requires at least 1 more feat, or more if you need to pick up proficiencies. The alternative is an agile weapon, which for non AoMF users costs a little over 8k and isn't really affordable until level 6 at the earliest (by blowing over half your WBL so your build can function). This also comes with the problem that you actually have to be able to get the weapon - if you aren't traveling to Metropolises your chances are dicey.

If you are playing a couple of levels after this stuff gets resolved and you can use mithral everything and have plenty of extradimensional space to spare then yes, dex builds are great, but they have a whole swath of issues at lower levels that all have to be worked through before a dex based melee builds can actually be useful when fighting in melee.


Heck even a simple trait like Muscle of the Society solves a lot of issues with a lower strength. Burdenless is a straight gp addition to armor for a +50% carry. Even a masterwork backpack given you a little bit of extra carry. AT the very worst, you can't carry everything and the kitchen sink, like two heavy spare weapons. There are no/low weight options for those though, so it's not that big a deal.

Just taking the trait, you can work with a 10 str (a 43lb limit modified) by having someone else carry your spare weapon/ammo and/or misc gear. Add the masterwork backpack and you're only 1 lb over.

It's really not a big issue at start Snowblind, and just a little bit of cash solves the remaining issues. 4000gp adds 50% to carry. 1500 gets you shadow piercing muleback cords that don't interfere with your shoulder slot.

Sovereign Court

At level one just get a pack horse for 45gp. Most of my characters do - whether strength or not.

And until you can afford mithril you're stuck with - at worst - leather armor. It's 2 AC lower than chain, but your higher dex will more than compensate.

Not to mention that it's not just martials that benefit from Deadly Agility.

Bard? Most bards are already finesse builds. It lets them dump Str & do more damage.

Druid? Tiny animal with stupidly high dex & nat attacks. Need I link the songbird of death? (Only it would no longer require an Agile amulet.)

Magus? Dervish is already the most powerful build - this would make it easier/less constricting.

For straight DPR, it's a bit weaker at low levels than two-handing.

And all of that is ignoring the secondary benefits of high dex. Initiative (awesome) skills (far more than Str) and Reflex (least important save - but an extra +5 or so is still handy).

Strength has virtually no secondary benefits. (carry capacity has already been addressed)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
At level one just get a pack horse for 45gp. Most of my characters do - whether strength or not.

Pack horses are for suckers. You want a pack yak for 24gp. They have a strength of 27 for a carry of 1038 lbs for 21gp less than the horse. ;)

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/gear/animalsAndTranspo rts.html#yak

Sovereign Court

graystone wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
At level one just get a pack horse for 45gp. Most of my characters do - whether strength or not.

Pack horses are for suckers. You want a pack yak for 24gp. They have a strength of 27 for a carry of 1038 lbs for 21gp less than the horse. ;)

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/gear/animalsAndTranspo rts.html#yak

If it's available in the campaign. Pack horses always are.

Heck - you might as well spring for a combat bison for 75gp :P.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
graystone wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
At level one just get a pack horse for 45gp. Most of my characters do - whether strength or not.

Pack horses are for suckers. You want a pack yak for 24gp. They have a strength of 27 for a carry of 1038 lbs for 21gp less than the horse. ;)

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/gear/animalsAndTranspo rts.html#yak

If it's available in the campaign. Pack horses always are.

Heck - you might as well spring for a combat bison for 75gp :P.

Yaks have the same stats! So a combat yak should be cheaper! ;)

On a serious note, I've never had an issue with a yak when druids/rangers where running around with exotic cats and dino's. I do understand though that it may be an issue in some games. The yak is just the best pick for a pack animal with it's cost/carry ratio if it's available. Heck, it's strong enough to carry another yak or a light horse and still not be encumbered.


Fyi the slashing grace stamina trick mentions light slashing weapons and i believe mark said that wasnt a mistake.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Slashing grace All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion