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I was messing around with trying to build a viable thrown weapon character, and I came across a few things:
Stone weapons (Ultimate Equipment) cost 25% as much, and weigh 75% as much... and are Fragile.
Splintering Weapon (Ultimate Combat) would allow you to throw these things and inflict 1D4 bleed by breaking them (at 2.5sp each, who cares?).
Trait: River Rat adds +1 to dagger damage
Item: Whetstone (Ultimate Equipment) adds +1 to damage on first hit of a weapon...
Swashbuckler can add their entire level to damage on these starting at level 3...
So, a swashbuckler who makes his own cheap (lets call them Throwing Rocks, but functionally Daggers) weapons can do 1D4+2 plus his level, plus his strength, and inflict 1D4 bleed on each hit (doesn't stack, so best to target multiple people, then run and let them bleed out).
This is the best I can find for thrown weapon builds so far, without resorting to the usual Blinkback Belt/Expensive magic weapon skullduggery.
I'm looking for advice on character build AND gear to make a scary weapon thrower, any tips?
Deific Obedience for Pharasma. +2 to attacks with daggers.
Hey nice find! Hope my GM allows the book...
Another option is Warpriest. The Sacred Weapon scales your damage die up, plus you get more bonus feats, and divine favor (especially paired with Fate's Favored) also boosts attack and damage.
A spell with a duration in minutes... granted, a luck bonus IS nice, but every level in another class is a level taken away from Swashbuckler (at level 20, +20 to damage!!!)
Other than the spell/trait combo, any reason for recommending this? the one level dip would result in a 1D6 rather than 1D4 base, but would lose 1 BAB... I'm not convinced this is ideal... Free weapon focus is nice though...
A spell with a duration in minutes... granted, a luck bonus IS nice, but every level in another class is a level taken away from Swashbuckler (at level 20, +20 to damage!!!)
Other than the spell/trait combo, any reason for recommending this? the one level dip would result in a 1D6 rather than 1D4 base, but would lose 1 BAB... I'm not convinced this is ideal... do they get weapon focus for free or something?
They do get Weapon Focus for free.
Also, compare your +20 damage at level 20 (which requires having Panache left, and is precision damage which is useless on some creatures such as elementals) to the +6.5 damage you get from the increased Sacred Weapon damage die, plus a swift action to cast divine power for +7 to attack AND damage (total of +13.5 damage so far) AND an extra attack just like haste. And once you have returning daggers, you can add enhancement bonuses via Sacred Weapon, including choosing special abilities on the fly, for anywhere from +4 to +4d6 damage.
And on top of that, you get self-healing, armor bonuses, and the versatility of 6 levels of spellcasting.
Proving once again caster trumps martial... sigh...
Thanks for the breakdown, I will consider that when I build my character.
Great suggestion, but does anyone know of any persistent methods of increasing throwing damage/range/number of attacks?
I'm not against spellcasting as a buffing method, but a nonmagical build would be preferred, with a BIG preference to passive/always on abilities.
Technically the description for stone weapons does not allow daggers. Quoting from Ultimate Equipment "Light and one-handed bludgeoning weapons, spears, and arrowheads can all be made of stone."
LOL yeah they say that and give a "flint knives" as an example of things that you can make with stone. :P
Obsidian/Glass weapons cost half of what base items of their type do, and have 75% the weight of base items of their type. Plus they can be used to craft light and one-handed weapons that deal piercing or slashing damage
That is from the incomplete prd website, the actual book says something very different, in fact, from the website you quoted from:
"Stone Age weapons almost always utilize stone in some way. From rocks lashed to wooden hafts to create early maces and axes, to flint knives and stone arrowheads, these primitive weapons are still deadly."
As far as I recall axes and knives aren't bludgeoning weapons... nor are spears... or most arrowheads.
So rather than trying to show that a mistake was made, any suggestions on improving a thrown weapon build?
I don't have my book with me, but I was reading it last night and chose stone over obsidian because of the cost difference. Daggers are legal.
Moving on.
That is from the incomplete prd website, the actual book says something very different, in fact, from the website you quoted from:
"Stone Age weapons almost always utilize stone in some way. From rocks lashed to wooden hafts to create early maces and axes, to flint knives and stone arrowheads, these primitive weapons are still deadly."
As far as I recall axes and knives aren't bludgeoning weapons... nor are spears... or most arrowheads.
So rather than trying to show that a mistake was made, any suggestions on improving a thrown weapon build?
Robert Maughan IS correct that the rules are contradictory and as such your build MAY not make it past your GM. This is one of those 'expect table variety' times where you should make sure to get your GM's ok. It's NOT pointing out a mistake and going "haha, you messed up" but a heads up it may be an issue.
Ugh, it persists across multiple sites too... how disappointing.
The book says something to the effect of: "light and one handed weapons may be made of stone, and bludgeoning two handed weapons"
Which makes perfect sense, as they actually USE THE KNIFE as an example.
Anywho, my GM isn't too anal about allowing a dagger build...
I suppose I could use Obsidian if I had to, but that is MUCH harder to find... ARGH!
Why oh why must it be so difficult to make a thrower?
Any other suggestions on making something resembling a playable dagger throwing character?
Stone weapons, PRD
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/primitiveArmorAndW eapons.html#stone
"Weapons: Light and one-handed bludgeoning weapons, spears, and arrowheads can all be made of stone.
Weapons made of stone have half the hardness of their base weapons, and have the fragile condition."
By strict RAW, a dagger can't be made. Does that make sense? No, especially given the examples. Bring this to a PFS game and most likely it will get rejected. You seem to have a home game but we don't know that unless you tell us.
On to the build, Opportunistic gives a bonus on AoO (through Snap Shot).
Flying Blade. You want to go swashbuckler, so might as well get dagger bonuses.
If you are open to a bit of multiclassing there is the far strike monk. Lots of free ranged feats and flurry with thrown weapons. Two levels gets you Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot and quick draw!
I like the Bruising Intellect trait there... Intimidate keeps getting mentioned in martial builds, I'm making a note of that.
Far Strike Monk looks very cool, my GM probably won't allow it (he is pretty much using the Core book, UC, UM, APG, ARG, not much else).
Stone weapons, PRD
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/primitiveArmorAndW eapons.html#stone
"Weapons: Light and one-handed bludgeoning weapons, spears, and arrowheads can all be made of stone.
Weapons made of stone have half the hardness of their base weapons, and have the fragile condition."
By strict RAW, a dagger can't be made. Does that make sense? No, especially given the examples. Bring this to a PFS game and most likely it will get rejected. You seem to have a home game but we don't know that unless you tell us.
On to the build, Opportunistic gives a bonus on AoO (through Snap Shot).
Flying Blade. You want to go swashbuckler, so might as well get dagger bonuses.If you are open to a bit of multiclassing there is the far strike monk. Lots of free ranged feats and flurry with thrown weapons. Two levels gets you Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot and quick draw!
I started a new thread about primitive materials. You can make daggers out of bone, obsidian and basically WOOD! But not rocks... stupid...
Also, I am 95% certain the book allows it, I think for some reason the website is just written differently... I mean, look at what they list in examples... axes, knives...
The Flying Blade archetype is for sure on the table for me, not against multiclassing, but my GM is restrictive on books, so the Far Strike monk is likely out (boooo!).
Also, I am 95% certain the book allows it, I think for some reason the website is just written differently... I mean, look at what they list in examples... axes, knives...
I checked 2 off site websites, the official PRD AND the actual book (Ultimate Combat is open to page 146 right now). They all match. I totally agree, "stupid...", but that's what's printed.
As far as the rest, it's a shame the monk is out. It's pretty sweet. With a Flying Blade I can't really think of any dagger specific advice to give. If you want general thrown weapon advice, I can do that. For example bite the bullet and pick up dodge and weapon focus so you can qualify for close-quarters thrower. No AoO for throwing will help you greatly.
Also, you can use an arrow as an improvised dagger. Arrows are specifically allowed to be stone, so just take catch off-guard or the rough and ready trait with profession(fletcher).
This is an interesting idea. Getting Throw Anything feat, Surprise Weapon & Improvised Defense trait lets you throw improvised weapons without penalty, gaining a +2 to hit and a +1 AC (at first). You really need to be a wildcat or far strike monk to keep damage up.
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Going an entirely different way - depending upon how your GM reads it (it's written badly) - you could just use a Kyoketsu Shoge. It limits your range somewhat - to 20ft - but it would allow you to enchant a single weapon without a Blinkback belt - and if you dip into sohei monk you can flurry it in light armor.
All good ideas, thanks for the help guys! I'm still gonna convince my GM that Stone should be allowed to be pointy...
I mean, light and one handed weapons that are piercing. If you can make a spear point... why not just take that spear point off, and BOOM! Dagger!
I seriously think they need to errata that. It's a game changer. :P
I'm not sure about how to do feats, I think I'm gonna focus on dealing damage, as taking a five foot adjust shouldn't be too hard, and if one goes the swashbuckling route, it isn't like you are locked in to throwing, you can still mess someone up in melee. :D
It might be worth going with shuriken instead. They work like daggers, but is much cheaper and can throw multiples without needing quick draw.
Several monk archetypes make this work even if far strike is not available. Sohei, Weapon Adept, and Martial Artist can all be great shuriken specialists.
Ever seen Ninja Assassin?
Yeah... this makes me think of that movie...
Obsidian shuriken, call him the Black Star Killer... heh.
I'm not sure about how to do feats, I think I'm gonna focus on dealing damage, as taking a five foot adjust shouldn't be too hard, and if one goes the swashbuckling route, it isn't like you are locked in to throwing, you can still mess someone up in melee. :D
At start, the old 5' step should work fine and depending on the game your in, it may work for you the whole game. The issue usually comes in with multiple larger creatures with reach making it iffy. Myself, I prefer to stick with ranged and try to find a way to get around AoO. Of course, the switch hitter route is always open but with the number of feats/abilities you have to throw at ranged combat, melee capabilities will suffer.
It might be worth going with shuriken instead. They work like daggers, but is much cheaper and can throw multiples without needing quick draw.
Several monk archetypes make this work even if far strike is not available. Sohei, Weapon Adept, and Martial Artist can all be great shuriken specialists.
Shurikens really shine with warpriests, wildcats or far strike monks what can up the base damage.
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I like the Bounty Hunter archetype of Slayer for thrown weapons.
Human Slayer (Bounty Hunter)
Stats:
STR 18 (16+2 Racial)
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 7
F1: Quick Draw H1: Combat Expertise
F3: Improved Dirty Trick
S4: Combat Style (Two-Weapon Fighting)
F5: Improved Trip
S6: Combat Trick (Greater Dirty Trick) [gained via FCB]
F7: Extra Slayer Talent - Combat Style (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)
Now, to be fair, this is designed only partially as a thrower. The key is that once a target is blind, you can sneak attack it all day long, even at range, so you can swap the SA damage dice for additional Dirty Tricks. In the case of thrown weapons, TWF is equivalent to Rapid/Multi as long as you have Quick Draw.
The draw of this build is that you're still contributing damage, but you're piling on MASSIVE penalties to the target each round. Consistently getting Blind, Deaf, Entangled, and Prone onto a target is pretty much a game ender for them. You can multiclass into Fighter at 7 and beyond if you prefer, which will allow you to start picking up the ranged target options you wanted.
The difficulty with thrown weapon builds is that they're extremely feat intensive. Most thrown weapons have terrible range increments, so you need either Far Shot or Distance Thrower to hit with consistency. Quick Draw is mandatory for non-shuriken users. Want fun weapons, like bolas or nets? Extra feats typically (though not for this archetype!). Throwing into melee? Precise and Improved Precise... you get the picture.
The other downside is that a number of premium thrown weapons are considered Ranged Weapons, but not defined as also being Light Weapons. This means the horrendous -4 penalty when using TWF. Note that you can Rapid Shot with thrown, but you cannot Multishot. This means that TWF ultimately ends up generating more attacks per round. You can stack them together, mind you, but that's an additional -2 penalty on all your attacks.
Your best weapon choices:
Range: Chakram (30'), Light Hammer (20'), Star Knife (20')
Cost: Wushu Darts (2 sp), Chakram (1 gp), Light Hammer (1 gp)
Weight: Wushu Darts (None), Chakram (1 lbs), Dagger (1 lbs)
Damage: Chakram (1d8), Spear (1d8), Shortspear (1d6)
Damage Types: Dagger (P or S), Chakram (S), Light Hammer (B)
Materials (not factored in above): Stone (Light Hammer), Obsidian (Dagger)
Sadly, this puts the dagger in a bad place. We can easily see that Chakram is pretty much #1 here, with Wushu Darts and Light Hammers performing well. Daggers don't have much advantage at anything, though, other than being able to be made out of obsidian and having 2 damage types. The problem is that a combination of Chakram and Wushu Darts costs less and weighs less overall.
If you are looking for magic items, you might want to consider this.
A wielder with a free hand can split this +1 dagger into two identical +1 daggers as a swift action, or a free action if she has the Quick Draw feat. The doubled daggers can’t be split again. If either dagger is thrown while doubled, the hurled dagger vanishes after resolving the attack and the remaining dagger can be split again.
The way I read this is provided you have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw daggers as a full attack. Best of all, you don't have to worry about retrieving the daggers you threw.
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It might be worth going with shuriken instead. They work like daggers, but is much cheaper and can throw multiples without needing quick draw.
Several monk archetypes make this work even if far strike is not available. Sohei, Weapon Adept, and Martial Artist can all be great shuriken specialists.
Actually - on second thought - this x10!
The main problem with your stone throwing build is a lack of enchantment bonuses. After all - they're being destroyed, it's not worth enhancing them.
However - if you flurry shurikens with your right hand - you can wield an allying melee weapon with your left hand. Every round you throw shuriken - transfer the enhancement bonus from your melee weapon to your shuriken!
This wouldn't work with daggers - as it would only work on one of them. Shuriken count as ammo - so it would work on 50 different ones each round.
Just curious, what was/were the deciding factor(s) in going with the TWF option over the new Thrown Weapon style that ACG introduced?
Great question. The main goal of the combat style is to ignore as many prerequisites as possible, whether they're additional feats or stats. Thrown combat style does a good job of letting you skip prerequisites, but you get feats that you don't necessarily want.
You can make a case for Close-Quarters Thrower as being a useful feat, but you're going to limit yourself to a single type of thrown weapon that this applies to. False Opening depends on CQT to function, which is why it's a prerequisite. Neither Pinpoint nor Shot on the Run are really needed for thrown weapons. That leaves you with the level 2 list, of which you're only skipping prerequisites on TWF and Precise Shot.
The TWF tree allows you to skip the DEX requirement on all the TWF feats that you grab through the style. This means you don't need to have high DEX to grab them, allowing you flexibility in your stats. It avoids painful cuts to the build, which absolutely requires 13 INT minimum and high STR to function. You don't worry about the DEX because hitting blind, deaf, entangled targets is easy, especially with full BAB and Studied Target.
It turns out that you can make a stronger case for the archery combat style than the thrown style for a thrown weapon user simply because of Improved Precise Shot at level 6. This shouldn't be terribly surprising, however, due to the word salad that occasionally crept into the ACG. In this instance, the thrown weapon style was more of a "what feats require thrown weapons?" selection than "what would thrown weapon users actually want?"
You have all been very helpful here folks, a sincere thank you for all these cool ideas!