Readying an Action to Smash / Sunder Projectiles


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Is this allowed RAW?

Grand Lodge

No.

You are looking to emulate the Deflect Arrows feat.

Unless you have an ability, or other feat, that can emulate the effects of this feat, then you will have to just rely on your AC.


Hmmmmmmmnnnnnnn......

Maybe?

"I ready to sunder the next arrow that is fired at me, once it comes within reach."

Seems plausible, although there's no rules for determining the AC of projectiles in flight that I know of.

Something like this is not covered in the rules, so it'd be complete GM adjudication (which is allowed "by the rules", btw). I suggest making it very hard to do - you don't want this to become a regular tactic.


Agreed that no, the rules don't allow you to do this. It's exactly the kind of specialized tactic that feats were designed for though. I'd suggest home-brewing a feat for it, assuming nothing like that already exists. A deflect arrows variant, or maybe a feat that allows attacks of opportunity against the incoming projectiles.

Grand Lodge

I believe there is a class ability, of some archetype, or Prestige Class, that emulates the Deflect Arrows feat, but uses a weapon.

I cannot recall it though.


I could have sworn I once saw a feat or archetype that lets you do this using your own archery (like a Point Defense Drone in StarCraft 2), but now I can't find it. But such a thing is really possible.


Ranger archetype, Toxophilite, from the Ranged Tactics Toolbox.

Intercept Arrow wrote:
Intercept Arrow (Ex): At 3rd level, a toxophilite can ready a ranged attack to deflect a ranged weapon attack against her or an ally within 30 feet. To deflect the attack, the toxophilite makes an attack with a ranged weapon. If her attack roll is greater than the attacking opponent’s roll, the opponent’s initial attack automatically misses. For each size category the attacking creature is larger than the toxophilite, the toxophilite takes a –4 penalty on her attack roll. The toxophilite must declare the use of this ability after the attack is announced, but before the roll is made. Unusually massive ranged weapons, such as boulders or ballista bolts, and ranged attacks by firearms or generated by natural attacks or spell effects can’t be def lected. This ability replaces endurance.

Grand Lodge

So, that is how you block an arrow, with an arrow.

I knew I saw something like that.

Still cool, every time I read it.


So the general answer is clearly no.

With some special exceptions that make it yes.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

No.

You are looking to emulate the Deflect Arrows feat.

Unless you have an ability, or other feat, that can emulate the effects of this feat, then you will have to just rely on your AC.

It's not really like deflect arrows. It takes a standard action to do it, after all. And you only need to deflect arrows that would hit. Sundering the next arrow shot at you would sunder it whether it would hit or not.

That said: There are no rules for doing it, so the rules board can't help.

Edit: When using a two-handed weapon you could take the shield of swings feat. It's "only" +4 to AC but that might be enough to save you.


Just a Guess wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

No.

You are looking to emulate the Deflect Arrows feat.

Unless you have an ability, or other feat, that can emulate the effects of this feat, then you will have to just rely on your AC.

It's not really like deflect arrows. It takes a standard action to do it, after all. And you only need to deflect arrows that would hit. Sundering the next arrow shot at you would sunder it whether it would hit or not.

That said: There are no rules for doing it, so the rules board can't help.

Edit: When using a two-handed weapon you could take the shield of swings feat. It's "only" +4 to AC but that might be enough to save you.

There are rules for it. The rule is you need to be a Toxophilite Ranger to do it.


If it's an Archetype abillity it shouldn't work RAW.

Was asking, because I'm planning a naval adventure and I thought it was a cool idea to allow the characters to try protecting their ship by cutting through the enemies missiles.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Ranger archetype, Toxophilite, from the Ranged Tactics Toolbox.
Intercept Arrow wrote:
Intercept Arrow (Ex): At 3rd level, a toxophilite can ready a ranged attack to deflect a ranged weapon attack against her or an ally within 30 feet. To deflect the attack, the toxophilite makes an attack with a ranged weapon. If her attack roll is greater than the attacking opponent’s roll, the opponent’s initial attack automatically misses. For each size category the attacking creature is larger than the toxophilite, the toxophilite takes a –4 penalty on her attack roll. The toxophilite must declare the use of this ability after the attack is announced, but before the roll is made. Unusually massive ranged weapons, such as boulders or ballista bolts, and ranged attacks by firearms or generated by natural attacks or spell effects can’t be def lected. This ability replaces endurance.

And here's the link to Toxophilite -- Thanks.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is absolutely allowable in the RAW, and does not invalidate the Deflect Arrows feat, which is clearly superior in just about every way.

The rules clearly state you can attack and destroy objects, and they do not impose any limitations on what kinds of objects you can attack. An arrow or boulder in flight is just as valid a target as one laying on the ground, though it may be much harder to hit.

Saying you can't even attempt this is simply using GM fiat.

As for that archetype...I would recommend ignoring it entirely. The game should not become increasingly limited due to a short-sighted designer's invention. That's just plain bad game design when a new option further limits existing rules/options.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

An arrow or boulder in flight is just as valid a target as one laying on the ground, though it may be much harder to hit.

I fully encourage you to try sundering a boulder in flight with an arrow.


Ravingdork wrote:
This is absolutely allowable in the RAW

I disagree. "Allowable in the RAW" would mean that the RAW has rules for it. Rules that tell you what the AC of the projectile is, what you need to roll, and what happens if you hit the projectile, and what happens if you don't. "Allowable" without rules is not really "in the RAW".

What you probably meant to say was "This is not forbidden by the RAW" which is correct. There are no rules saying that you cannot ready an attack to sunder a projectile in flight.

So this falls into the GM fiat area. Some things to consider:

1. What is the AC of the projectile? I would suggest the AC could be the attack roll adjusted for size modifier. So if an orc shoots an arrow and rolls an 18 to hit, the arrow is Tiny so that adds +2 AC, so the AC to sunder this arrow is 20. No, there is no reason that an accurate arrow is harder to sunder than an inaccurate one; I just like the mechanic.

2. What if you hit? I suggest using all the regular rules for applying damage to objects. If you destroy the projectile, it misses. If you only damage it, it might miss or it might still hit. One possible mechanic might be to subtract the damage done by the sunder from the attack roll - do enough damage and you could deflect the attack just enough to miss, too little damage and the projectile might still hit the target.

3. What if you miss? The obvious answer is that the projectile still hits what it was shot at (or misses if the attacker rolled a miss with his ranged attack). But an interesting possibility is that the effort of deflecting it (and failing) might put you in the way so the projectile might hit you. However, I think this is often desirable (if the tank wants to take damage from an arrow aimed at the wizard), so I probably wouldn't do this.

4. Is there a penalty for doing this? Well, the defender gives up his own action to deflect one attack, so that might be enough of a penalty, but I would consider adding a further penalty that if you attempt this, you are -4 AC against ranged attacks (including the one you want to deflect, if it is shot at you) until the start of your next round. Then maybe add a feat, Improved Projectile Sunder, that removes the penalty.

5. Ineffective attempts. Just like the rules suggest that you cannot sunder a rope with a bludgeoning tool, we might want to rule that some weapons may be inappropriate for sundering some attacks. I don't suppose a whip makes a good arrow-sundering weapon. I don't suppose that most weapons would ever be good at sundering boulders, or even deflecting them. Etc.

Just some thoughts.


PRD wrote:

Sunder

You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition (see Conditions). If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.

...

Smashing an Object

Smashing a weapon or shield with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon is accomplished with the sunder combat maneuver (see Combat). Smashing an object is like sundering a weapon or shield, except that your combat maneuver check is opposed by the object's AC. Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon.

Armor Class: Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they don't usually move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object's Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (see Table: Size and Armor Class of Objects) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.

Hardness: Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. When an object is damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object's hit points (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points).

Hit Points: An object's hit point total depends on what it is made of and how big it is (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points). Objects that take damage equal to or greater than half their total hit points gain the broken condition (see Conditions). When an object's hit points reach 0, it's ruined.

Very large objects have separate hit point totals for different sections.

Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.

Ranged Weapon Damage: Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object's hardness.

Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.

Immunities: Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits.

Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and +10 to the item's hit points.

Vulnerability to Certain Attacks: Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object's hardness.

Damaged Objects: A damaged object remains functional with the broken condition until the item's hit points are reduced to 0, at which point it is destroyed.

Damaged (but not destroyed) objects can be repaired with the Craft skill and a number of spells.

Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).

Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.

Animated Objects: Animated objects count as creatures for purposes of determining their Armor Class (do not treat them as inanimate objects).

Sunder is used against an opponent holding or wearing the item. "Smashing a weapon or shield with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon is accomplished with the sunder combat maneuver (see Combat)." Breaking an object has its own section and the objects are (usually) stationary. Animated object have a separate section. The only section that pertains to an arrow is the weapon section. The arrow could be sundered if you readied an action to attack the enemy when he fires an arrow (assuming you are close enough/in melee range). [Of course, barring class features, etc. that allows this.]

So, no, you cannot sunder an arrow in flight, but you could ready an action to sunder an arrow before it is fired (or the bow, for that matter) if you were in melee range (or, if you readied an action to sunder the enemy weapon if they attempted to move, etc.).

You could take the Snatch Arrow feat and catch the arrow, then break it at you leisure.

As always, just my two coppers...

-Doomn


Besides which, you cannot perform combat maneuvers with a ranged weapon. Look at the archer fighter archetype. It specifically allows them the ability to perform sunder with a bow. Although, now you can replicate it with feats from the ranged tactics toolbox.

The end result being that you can't even do a sunder with a ranged weapon without a feat or special ability.


you can do this in two ways;
1) standard action to hit something unattended (projectiles laying on the ground...)
2) sunder CMB on an opponents held or worn objects(attended objects)

then there's the stuff in flight (aka post firing but before it hits anything)!

It's kinda speed dependent...

if it's a critter flying - they provoke usually when they fly by you if they don't have certain feats...

If it's a baseball(40m/s) you take a swing with your readied action. I suppose you could use Perform or a regular to hit roll... off the cuff I'd say boulders thrown by giants fall into this category and they have a feat/class ability for it... in a home game I'd let you take a swing with a readied action to do a few points to it before it smashes into you and does the same amount of damage... if you managed to sunder it I'd split the damage into half lethal and half subdual. But that's just a GM fastballing it in a home game...
Generally the game assumes it strikes within the action and requires a feat, class ability, spell effect, or something funky to interact with someone's action at this point. I used the baseball as it is on the slow end of the speed and is meant to be hit.

If it is moving reasonably fast (75m/s+)... like an arrow... it's something that is never directly talked about and is assumed to require a feat, class ability, spell effect, or something funky.
Secondly, with initiative the way it works, you'd have to have an immediate(interrupt) action to act before someone's round ended, as somehow it's all sequential.

Lastly, if it's moving pretty fast(bullets)(black powder 150-300m/s; modern rifles 1200m/s) to light speed(lasers at 299792458m/s), you don't have a chance as you can't react that fast. So it'd take something really special like Time Stop, mythic feats, superpowers.


human reaction time is about 160milliseconds to see a light and click a button... so for Dex10 an arrow at 75m/s would have gone 12m or 39.3ft.

what this means in the game is your interpretation...


Without Deflect/Snatch Arrows, the only way to block ranged attacks in mid flight are with spells, and using them in this way really isn't the best use for them. Ready an action to cast a spell that creates total cover for the target. For example:

Wall of (Anything solid)
Wind Wall
etc (mainly because those are kind of the best).

Next, ready a spell that moves the target away from the attack, such as dimension door or teleport. Again, likely not the best use of those spells, but if it's the only thing keeping you/your buddy from dying, good on you.

Last, cast something really weird. Like, annoyingly weird. Example: ready an action to cast warp wood on an arrow in flight, and hope the DM lets it curve off in a different direction. Ready a levitate spell and move the arrow twenty feet up or down (but this only works if your DM lets you move it when you cast the spell, otherwise a move action).

Last, but not least, tower shields are great.


Doomn posted the rules for smashing objects. It even mentions that they "usually" don't move, not that they must be stationary.

Thus, there are rules for this, even if people don't like them. Note, the presence of feats or abilities which allow something similar to be done in no way invalidates another legal rules item.

So yeah, this is totally covered by the rules. At the same time, I'd certainly inject a hefty amount of GM modifiers because this it something ridiculous to try (but not outside the realms of fantasy heroics).


Byakko wrote:
So yeah, this is totally covered by the rules.

I disagree. "totally covered by the rules" would mean that there actually are rules for it. Rules that tell you what the AC of the projectile is, what you need to roll, and what happens if you hit the projectile, and what happens if you don't. Allowable without rules is not really "totally covered.

What you probably meant to say was "This is not forbidden by the rules" which is correct. There are no rules saying that you cannot ready an attack to sunder a projectile in flight.

For the rest, see my first post in this thread...


Byakko wrote:

Doomn posted the rules for smashing objects. It even mentions that they "usually" don't move, not that they must be stationary.

Thus, there are rules for this, even if people don't like them. Note, the presence of feats or abilities which allow something similar to be done in no way invalidates another legal rules item.

So yeah, this is totally covered by the rules. At the same time, I'd certainly inject a hefty amount of GM modifiers because this it something ridiculous to try (but not outside the realms of fantasy heroics).

Still not correct.

1) You can only perform sunder with a ranged weapon with special abilities from Archer Fighter or feats from Ranged Tactics toolbox

2) "You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack"

Assuming you beat the first hurdle, the 2nd one is impossible without the Toxophilite's ability. The item must be in hand or worn. So you could shoot the arrow as he is preparing to fire the bow. Once the arrow is knocked. Pretty much any time before the arrow actually leaves the bow. Once the arrow has left the bow though, it is not in hand or worn.

I will say I agree with the sentiment that archetypes or class abilities removing a players ability to do things is annoying. A great example of which is the feat strike back. Which I think most people had played as being allowed, but once the feat was released was not allowable (without changing the rules).


Rules for smashing objects are different than sundering items held or worn. Or are you saying that once an object leaves a character's grasp, it becomes immune to all attacks? Your players must be thrilled when you tell them they can't break a glass window with an admantine weapon.

Quote:
An object's Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (see Table: Size and Armor Class of Objects) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.

The AC for an object is clearly stated in the rules, and it also gives rules for attacking them with a ranged weapon.

The results of the attack are also specified. In general, you calculate the object's hp and apply the damage (halving energy damage, subtracting hardness, etc).

Naturally, it's a bit of an oversight for the rules not to include an AC adjustment based on the object's relative velocity.


We have AC due to size and material, see breaking objects AC & Hardness of common objects and Weapons {it's kinda rough, but it's there}.

if hitting a fast moving object was covered by the rules, there would be statements about AC due to speed. There isn't. That is the strongest argument against this situation. It is doable using the d20 system but falls squarely on your home game GMs shoulders.
IF your home game GM decides to add to AC from speed, I'd suggest;
bonus to AC from speed = Round up[1.8*ABS(log(X))*ln(X-12)/ln2]; where X is speed in meters/second (m/s); (ignore any imaginary values to AC bonus), or something similar.
remember 0.3048*feet is meters, or 0.0508*feet/round (6 seconds) is m/s.

Sundering and breaking objects covers non-moving and slow moving(less than your single tactical movement speed) attended and unattended objects.

Feats, spells, and class abilities (and such) cover deflecting projectiles and missiles. A key part of this is readied actions or immediate actions to interrupt the opponents attack sequence.


No restriction on breaking objects based on their speed is given in the rules, therefore you default to the rules provided - that you can. If you define a cutoff speed beyond which you can no longer attack objects... that's just making something up and is a house rule.

That being said, this is, of course, all really silly. :) But it's not accurate to say the rules don't cover this.

I'd like to note, tho, that your reaction time doesn't have to beat the arrow's time... you can also observe the shooter to predict when the arrow will be released. This is the same reason you still get your dodge bonus to AC versus archers (and gunners!) even if they're close.

Also, someone mentioned the Strike Back feat earlier. That feat allows you to hit something beyond your reach with a ready... something that was never possible before its creation. In any case, the creation of a feat that allows you to do something you could before doesn't prevent you from still using the old rules unless specifically called out. I believe the old Prone Shooter was an example of this.


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Byakko wrote:
Naturally, it's a bit of an oversight for the rules not to include an AC adjustment based on the object's relative velocity.

That's the most important part of this whole discussion - I doubt that anybody is advocating that sundering an arrow if flight is as easy as sundering the same arrow just lying there on the ground.

Furthermore, of nearly equal consideration is the fact that doing this creates an "active defense" scenario. Essentially a "parry" mechanic. The devs (of all versions over 15 years or more) have spoken about why parrying, or any other "active defense" mechanic doesn't exist in the rules.

Suggesting that a fighter could ready an action to "parry", "block", or otherwise actively interfere with an orc swinging an axe at him is fundamentally changing the rules of the game. This is NOT supported, although there are some optional rules out there for it, and a few attempts at classes/archetypes/feats has made situational use of "active defense".

Likewise, suggesting protecting yourself from incoming missiles by readying an action to sunder them out of the air is also "active defense" and not supported by the rules.

Overcome those two problems (velocity AC and active defense) using only the RAW and then we can say that the rules support this kind of thing.


Quote:
Suggesting that a fighter could ready an action to "parry", "block", or otherwise actively interfere with an orc swinging an axe at him is fundamentally changing the rules of the game. This is NOT supported, although there are some optional rules out there for it, and a few attempts at classes/archetypes/feats has made situational use of "active defense".

Ok, beyond the bizarro/philosophical land of arrow smashing, readying to sunder or disarm the weapon of someone attacking you is totally legit and supported by the rules.


Azothath wrote:

IF your home game GM decides to add to AC from speed, I'd suggest;

bonus to AC from speed = Round up[1.8*log(X)*ln(X-12)/ln2]; where X is speed in meters/second (m/s); (ignore any imaginary values to AC bonus), or something similar.

Nice formula, but way to complex for the kind of game I'm playing. Especially since I don't have tables for the velocity of every arrow, bolt, ballista bolt, catapult stone, cannon ball, musket ball, manticore tail spike, magic missile, fireball, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe we can simplify that a bit, say, with a quick table for common projectiles, or just use the attacker's attack roll + projectile size modifier and leave it at that.

All totally house rules, of course.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

By that interpretation, martials are once again shafted by spellcasters...

(I do agree that sunder cannot normally be done with ranged weapons, but that doesn't prevent a swordsman from slicing and arrow out of the air.)


Byakko wrote:
Quote:
Suggesting that a fighter could ready an action to "parry", "block", or otherwise actively interfere with an orc swinging an axe at him is fundamentally changing the rules of the game. This is NOT supported, although there are some optional rules out there for it, and a few attempts at classes/archetypes/feats has made situational use of "active defense".
Ok, beyond the bizarro/philosophical land of arrow smashing, readying to sunder or disarm the weapon of someone attacking you is totally legit and supported by the rules.

You're right, of course, which is why I specifically used "parry" and "block" which are totally different mechanics that are not supported by the rules. We have AC for that. Those 10 points of AC that everyone gets already assumes we're doing our best to avoid attacks. Additional AC for high DEX or for worn armor is where we inidvidualize, but the flat "10+" at the beginning of the formula is our basic dodge/duck/block/parry/avoid AC.

I was never trying to suggest that you cannot sunder or disarm a melee weapon as there are obviously rules for that. Rules that completely break down against projectiles.

Furthermore, it's problematic to try to sunder/disarm AFTER the melee attack is begun - you would ready a maneuver and attempt it BEFORE the guy attacks. Meaning that if you do disarm him, he still has his action to perhaps Quick Draw a different weapon and attack you. So you haven't actually defended yourself against an attack using "active defense" but rather you've prevented the attack from ever happening. But if you swat an arrow in flight, preventing it from hitting you, it's very hard to say that you swatted it before it was fired, which means that you WOULD be using "active defense".

I was merely suggesting that if we're going to discuss whether the RAW supports taking actions to prevent attacks, be they axes or arrows, from hitting you after the attack has been started and the attacker has committed to using and losing his action, you're using "active defense" which the devs have vocally and frequently stated they do not intend.


Ravingdork wrote:
(I do agree that sunder cannot normally be done with ranged weapons, but that doesn't prevent a swordsman from slicing and arrow out of the air.)

I agree, that would be awesome. Rule of Cool!

Since this is in the Rules Questions forum, I'd love to get a cite for the book and page reference that supports this rule...


FYI & amusement

my somewhat curve fitting formula uses power of 2 based on the reaction time.

It doesn't show any bonus until about 220 ft per round (11.176 m/s) or +1 and I'd handwave that to 11 m/s to 14m/s (function issues) as +1.
So that fits the game as is considering that's a double move at 110ft {fly speed} for +1 AC bonus... which is super fast movement in the game. Running(*4) gives a minimum base speed of 55 to get that +1 to AC.

at 14 m/s (275.6 ft/r) gets +2 AC. Yes, you'd need to run at a base speed of 69 to get that +2 to AC....

the baseball at 40 m/s (787.4 ft/r) gets +14 AC. This was my real data point as expert baseball players (d20+1 to 5 vs AC 5+14) hit about 1 out of 3 to 5 throws. So as they say, this is in the ballpark... lol... you could adjust it a bit one way or the other, but it's not going to make a big difference in the "low" end.

an arrow shot from a compound bow with a speed of 75 m/s (1476.4 ft/r) gets a +21 AC.

The rifle bullet at 1200 m/s (23622 ft/r) gets +57 to AC... lol...


Quote:
Furthermore, it's problematic to try to sunder/disarm AFTER the melee attack is begun - you would ready a maneuver and attempt it BEFORE the guy attacks. Meaning that if you do disarm him, he still has his action to perhaps Quick Draw a different weapon and attack you.

This has been covered at length in other threads. Once you start an action, you can't choose to take a different action if it gets interrupted/stopped by something.

If your weapon is disarmed as you go to attack with it, you can't then attack with a different weapon instead (with that same action).


It's been covered at length, but don't pretend your interpretation is universally accepted. In fact, I think it's in the minority.


This is how it's been played at almost every table I've witnessed in 3.5 and Pathfinder, and I've been involved in a lot of cons and games. Granted, this is just my experience, but I highly doubt it's the minority view.

To rule otherwise invites things like:

A goes to disarm B, but doesn't have improved disarm.
B uses his AoO to disarm A and succeeds.
A doesn't care because he can just attack with a different weapon instead.

Really? And you think that's the majority view?

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Technically, it never says anywhere in the RAW that arrows actually travel through the intervening space between the shooter and the target.

They start in the shooters square, and once the attack roll is resolved they either break, disappear (are "lost"), or appear somewhere on the battleground where they can be recovered.

Probably this is intentional, so as to avoid Zeno's paradox.


Hmn, I have no strong argument against that Benchak, lol.

I do feel the rules for cover indicate projectiles follow a path from the attacker to the target (as well as, dare I say, common sense? ... probably not, since I'm arguing for smashing inflight arrows, heh). Perhaps they just need to see their target clearly to utilize their teleporting ammunition?


Actually there are rules to correlate speed and AC. In particular, the more the speed, the more the target is easy to hit, since running characters lose their dex bonus to AC.
In addition, i'd like to note that the fact that such an action is descripted by a random class ability in a random splat book is a moot point. I mean, i don't have to remember anyone about the first draft of Prone Shooter, do I?
So, in closure, the Smashing an Object as a standard action against an arrow should settle this.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Zeno's paradox?


Ravingdork wrote:
Zeno's paradox?

Zeno's Paradox


Byakko wrote:
No restriction on breaking objects based on their speed is given in the rules, therefore you default to the rules provided - that you can. If you define a cutoff speed beyond which you can no longer attack objects... that's just making something up and is a house rule.

Great, now I don't have to worry about magic missiles anymore since I can just put my sword between me and them with a readied action. All I have to do is touch it because it can't damage my weapon. I don't even need to break it, so hardness and HP don't matter.

---

And what happens if you "hit" the arrow but don't break it? Surely it is no longer going to hit its mark.

You cannot break a boulder coming at you just because it is an object. Or maybe that is why so many dwarves use hammers...


Magic Missiles aren't actually objects so you can't smash them.

If you hit an object, there are 3 results:
it is destroyed
it gains the broken condition (-2 to hit and damage)
or no effect (apart from possibly subtracting some hp from it)

Sure, you could smash a boulder with a hammer... although a boulder probably has too many hp for you to really do anything versus it.

Also, keep in mind:

Quote:
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.


Remember also that if you don't deal enaugh damage to break it in that single blow you are still going to be hit.


Dekalinder wrote:

Actually there are rules to correlate speed and AC. In particular, the more the speed, the more the target is easy to hit, since running characters lose their dex bonus to AC.

In addition, i'd like to note that the fact that such an action is descripted by a random class ability in a random splat book is a moot point. I mean, i don't have to remember anyone about the first draft of Prone Shooter, do I?
So, in closure, the Smashing an Object as a standard action against an arrow should settle this.

This is an inaccurate causation. Moving faster doesn't lower AC, otherwise a creature with a 60' base speed compared to that halfling in plate 15' base speed should have a higher AC speed penalty. Moving at your maximum running speed removes your dodge bonus to AC for an undefined reason in the game rules. Personally I imagine its because its hard to turn or change directions abruptly from a full on sprint.


Zeno's paradox?

really these are just ancient thought experiments about how the world works... and generally just a curious viewpoint.
If you frame them as a math question, then calculus conquers all... (it's that summation as the limit goes to infinity that gets all those infinite points...)

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Azothath wrote:

Zeno's paradox?

really these are just ancient thought experiments about how the world works... and generally just a curious viewpoint.
If you frame them as a math question, then calculus conquers all... (it's that summation as the limit goes to infinity that gets all those infinite points...)

True, and iirc, calculus is how they solved this problem back in 2e.

But of course, 3.0 had to dumb everything down and just use teleporting arrows. :/


Dekalinder wrote:
Actually there are rules to correlate speed and AC. In particular, the more the speed, the more the target is easy to hit, since running characters lose their dex bonus to AC.

This has to be sarcasm. It has to be. Right? Please?

OK, since it's not clear that the quote above is meant as sarcasm, here's the rebuttal:

Faster things are HARDER to hit, not easier. Ask anyone who's ever stepped up to home plate in a baseball game. Fastballs are hard to hit. Nice slow easy pitches over the plate are easy to hit. Many of the best pitchers in the world are the guys with the fastest pitches.

Or another rebuttal:

If going faster made things easier to hit, then it would hard to hit a lobbed oil flask, easier to hit a thrown knife, even easier to hit a fired arrow, even easier to hit a bullet, and ridiculously easy to hit a beam of light. In fact, light is so fast that there is no way to miss it - you automatically hit it every time. Heck, I just went out in my back yard and split photons with a steak knife. Easy peasy.

Or another rebuttal:

If "the more the speed, the more the target is easy to hit" were true, then the opposite is true: the less the speed, the more the target is hard to hit. If that's true, then anyone can generally swat a bullet out of the air, but it's harder to hit a thrown baseball, it's even harder to hit that ball gently rolling on the ground, and it's obviously much harder to hit a worm crawling ever so slowly on the ground. I just tried to step on a worm in my back yard and you know, you're right, it's just about impossible. Took me about 50 tries before I could manage to hit that elusively slow vermin...

Dekalinder wrote:
So, in closure, the Smashing an Object as a standard action against an arrow should settle this.

Nope.

No closure.

No settlement.


It was half sarcasm half seriusness. Even if does not makes much sense, the rule is there, so you should abide by it (at least in the rules subforum).

As for

Quote:
f "the more the speed, the more the target is easy to hit" were true, then the opposite is true: the less the speed, the more the target is hard to hit

this is a clear logical fallacy

Since fast object lose DEX to AC (+0), and immobile objexcts have 0 DEX (-5), while normal speed object can have anything in between -5 to +infinity you can easly deduct that speed/AC is not a linear correlation.
OFC, this is just a thought exercise, and has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

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