So the title explains the basics of what I'm looking to do.
Our party currently consists of:
Gnome Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger and supposed party face)
Human Fighter (TWF Sword/Board)
Half-Elf Paladin (Greatsword + minor healing)
Elf Wizard (controller type, conj. specialist)
Kitsune Magus (Spire Defender, damage/control) <- Me.
We're playing through Jade Regent, and for RP reasons (conflict between Kitsune and the Gnome) my character might be leaving the party (ingame reason being the Kitsune is tired of the gnome being a bit too talkative, and constantly "giving up the game" to the badguys, our plans and etc).
So I'm trying to think of a suitable replacement character, but I am absolutely stuck. I'm worried that if I replace my Magus with a non-damage dealer, the group might not put out enough damage (both gunslinger and fighter do low, consistent damage, paladin has high spikey damage).
That being said, I'm banned from playing Divine spellcasters (as they're too easy to break and I'm the most experienced in the party).
What would you add to this group that has a good mix of control and damage, and doesn't step on anybodys toes (in terms of role)?
For a mixture of damage and control, try an alchemist.
So the title explains the basics of what I'm looking to do.
Our party currently consists of:
Gnome Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger and supposed party face)
Human Fighter (TWF Sword/Board)
Half-Elf Paladin (Greatsword + minor healing)
Elf Wizard (controller type, conj. specialist)
Kitsune Magus (Spire Defender, damage/control) <- Me.We're playing through Jade Regent, and for RP reasons (conflict between Kitsune and the Gnome) my character might be leaving the party (ingame reason being the Kitsune is tired of the gnome being a bit too talkative, and constantly "giving up the game" to the badguys, our plans and etc).
So I'm trying to think of a suitable replacement character, but I am absolutely stuck. I'm worried that if I replace my Magus with a non-damage dealer, the group might not put out enough damage (both gunslinger and fighter do low, consistent damage, paladin has high spikey damage).
That being said, I'm banned from playing Divine spellcasters (as they're too easy to break and I'm the most experienced in the party).
What would you add to this group that has a good mix of control and damage, and doesn't step on anybodys toes (in terms of role)?
Bard. You will greatly enhance the overall party's effectiveness, and you get control stuff as well.
If you are worried about damage, I recommend an archer bard or the arcane duelist in particular.
Inquisitor would likely be fine, although the two classes that I never really looked into much have been Inquisitor and Alchemist..
I was thinking of making a rogue but I just remembered Vivisectionist... That could potentially turn out fun.
Inquisitor would likely be fine, although the two classes that I never really looked into much have been Inquisitor and Alchemist..
I was thinking of making a rogue but I just remembered Vivisectionist... That could potentially turn out fun.
Human Ninja
1. Human Bonus Feat - Sap Adept / Feat Imp. Unarmed Strike
2. Ninja Trick - Vanishing Trick
3. Feat - Knockout Artist
4. Combat Feat - Imp. Grapple
5. Feat Sap Mastery
6. Ninja Trick - Strangler
I was thinking of making this char. Maybe you would like it too.
If you're worried about making something that outshines the party, you might be careful with the vivisectionist + feral mutagen melee machine ;)
You might keep the bombs, maybe even pick up a few control focused discoveries eventually (smoke bomb/stink bomb for example). You'll be able to switch hit in a pinch, and do some controlling with your bombs while still being a beast in melee when you drink your mutagen.
I agree on bard. Assuming the conjurer is actually summoning you'd have a very powerful impact on every character.
Bard here too. Witch would be a good choice as well.
Bard or Witch. Party buffs versus controlling through debuffs becomes the choice. Both also bring a limited amount of healing as well (compared to divine casters).
Not so much banned from playing divine casters and strongly recommended I don't play them anymore... I was a Malconvoker in our last game (this is our first pathfinder) and that was my last chance lol.
I absolutely love the Witch and would play one if we didn't already have a Treantmonk-style god controller wizard (grease and glitter dust are his go-to spells).
And playing another wizard could easily upset the current wizard player.
I like the bard idea, but some builds are hard with 15 point buy.
Not so much banned from playing divine casters and strongly recommended I don't play them anymore... I was a Malconvoker in our last game (this is our first pathfinder) and that was my last chance lol.
I absolutely love the Witch and would play one if we didn't already have a Treantmonk-style god controller wizard (grease and glitter dust are his go-to spells).
And playing another wizard could easily upset the current wizard player.I like the bard idea, but some builds are hard with 15 point buy.
Bard is not difficult with 15 pts. What do you want to do? I might have some suggestions then :-)
Cleric
play nicely
Melee or archer bard would be fine, just not sure how to buil them (Treantmonks guide is helpful but Bard has LOTS of non core material).
Druid may be an interesting choice, if you could get some decent control and damage options with it.
Take a back seat for a while. Build a Bard specializing in party buffing, healing and skills. With your boosts the fighter & pally will do much better. Use a ranged or reach weapon, but your main thing is taking a back seat and making everyone else great.
Melee or archer bard would be fine, just not sure how to buil them (Treantmonks guide is helpful but Bard has LOTS of non core material).
Druid may be an interesting choice, if you could get some decent control and damage options with it.
For low levels like your 4 levels Treantmonk's guide is still pretty accurate. Especially when going with an archer bard, there is not so much different at the moment. However, here are some general notes and ideas:
- Personally I do not like his dumps down to 7. I prefer to not go below 10, or exceptionally 8. This leaves more options like increasing a stat to 11 to allow access to other classes such as cleric, though it is not as strong as Treantmonk's suggestions.
- Lots of new archetypes have come up and lots of feats. If I find the time I will give you a sample build. Until then consider the following:
- Human is great for extra spells.
- Half-elf is nice due to the rounds of bardic performance you may add.
- The skill focus is also great if you later intend to get eldritch heritage and a scorcerer bloodline power. Doing such a thing offers a lot of new options for you. Naturally, any other race can do that, though human would be the strongest other option.
- Lots of interesting prestige classes are available with bard if you one interests you. Besides the arcane archer - note that the race requirement has been errataed away - dragon disciple is the number one choice for melee bards (well, for those who do not want to continue as bards). If multiclassing is acceptable, battle herald helps you combine the benefits of cavalier/tactician fighter with that of bard. Also, shadow dancer or pathfinder chronicler might be interesting if you accept taking hits to your abilities and spells.
- Animal speaker is an archetype I find quite nice. Debuffing with swarms is very nice, and the ability to speak with animals or summon nature allies also greatly enhances your versatility. Plus the abilities being replaced are kind of "meh!" anyway, so it does not matter.
- Arcane duelist would be my best suggestion for melee bard. Consider going for whip mastery choosing whips as your arcane bond.
- Just because it is often overlooked: The geisha archetype is quite nice. It is the only type of bard that allows a long lasting prebuff, so zones of silence, applicability for duels where live performing would be considered "cheating", or a potential necessity to be stealthy does not get in the way. It is also fantastic base material for a diplomancer bard, given its level bonuses. You just might want to have a wand of mage armor around to buff your AC until you get bracers of armor.
- There are lots of cool other archetypes, but I would go with one that buffs your allies (not debuffs opponents or works just for you like archaeologist). If you are interested in those though, let me know...
- Arcane strike is a must have feat if you intend to do damage. It is probably much better than power attack for you.
- Arcane blast should be on your list later IMO. It offers you a great chance to do supernatural damage when you have no other option.
- Great fortitude is probably one of the best feats for you. Take it when you can afford it.
- Lingering performance effectively triples your number of rounds of bardic performance.
- Depending on your DM and your setting, eschew materials could be valuable. You might not look like a caster and get some spells off without someone else noticing.
- When going melee, strongly look towards combat casting. And using a reach weapon - in fact always consider if a reach weapon might be suitable for you. You can still use a buckler as a shield effectively if you take improved shield bash.
- When going for maneuvers, consider pumping your dex high, take agile maneuvers and quick draw - for whips! Use the whips for maneuvers, drop them if you lose the check and pull up another one. They are cheap, and with arcane strike they all become weapons anyway.
- The "saving performance" type of spells are great for you to save others and thus shine by helping them survive. They would always be among those I recommend, next to silence, glitterdust, grease, mage hand, prestidigitation, summon instrument (summon lots of drums and use them to carry water to extinguish fire, for example ;-)), comprehend languages, vanish, invisibility, haste (I'll mention some higher level spells), slow, dispel magic, improved invisibility, alter self, cure spells, blur, ghostbane dirge, rage (boost or penalize enemy spellcasters), shatter, versatile weapon, "image" spells... There are just too many good ones out there for a bard. Do consider taking reach spell though - a lot of cool spells have a range of touch, and depending on your AC/HPs you want to be able to stay out of reach. Or to just cure at distance...
- I would give this a specific note: Summon monster, coupled with augment summoning. I know Treantmonk does not look at it too kindly, but I played a summoning oriented bard for over a year from level 1 to 16, and it worked absolutely great. Yes, the critters will not be so powerful at later levels, but augment summoning coupled with haste, inspire courage, celestial/fiendish templates and good positioning can make life very tough for opponents. Particularly when you use them to give flanking bonuses to characters with sneak attack and to spawn many of them (use summon monster to summon more creatures for one level lower and metamagic rods of maximization to get the most out of it). The spellfocus conjuration helps with a lot of useful bard spells such as glitterdust, grease or web, so it is not bad. However, you gotta be sure about taking a path like this - it'll cost you some ressources.
- Ability focus is a good for increasing the DC of your abilities when you debuff/fascinate...
- If your group is cool with it, take a look at the masterpieces. There are actually some quite nice ones, but it requires the other characters to adept to that. Still easier than taking teamwork feats...
So much for now. If you have specific questions or difficulties, please let me know :-)
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Holy wall of text batman.
Treantmonk's guides are a little outdated, but the general advice is still fantastic. Find out what your main goal is (doing damage, casting spells, buffing party members?) and place your resources to best achieve that goal. A melee bard should focus on strength, etc.
I don't think whip is that great right now. Low damage and very feat intensive doesn't really speak to me, especially when the longspear is just so nice.
OK, just for the fun of it I created a rather unusual type of bard: a Geisha Animal Speaker summoning oriented bard :-)
Now, there are lots of bard builds available that would be more effective right from the start, but just take a look at it...
BARD GEISHA CR 3
Male Human Bard (Animal Speaker, Geisha) 4
NN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +4
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 14. . (+1 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 31 (4d8+8)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +4
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Masterwork Gauntlet, Spiked +5 (1d4+1/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Whip, Nine-section +5 (1d8+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Crossbow, Light +6 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Bardic Performance (standard action) (13 rounds/da, Bardic Performance: Countersong, Bardic Performance: Distraction, Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +1
Bard (Animal Speaker, Geisha) Spells Known (CL 4, +4 melee touch, +5 ranged touch):
2 (2/day) Summon Monster II, Summon Nature's Ally II, Silence (DC 15)
1 (4/day) Summon Nature's Ally I, Grease (DC 15), Feather Fall (DC 14), Saving Finale (DC 14), Vanish (DC 14)
0 (at will) Mage Hand, Prestidigitation (DC 13), Read Magic (DC 13), Message, Detect Magic, Summon Instrument
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Arcane Strike, Augment Summoning, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus: Conjuration
Skills Acrobatics +12, Appraise +4, Bluff +7, Craft (Calligraphy) +9, Diplomacy +12, Disguise +7, Fly +12, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (Arcana) +5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (Engineering) +4, Knowledge (Geography) +4, Knowledge (History) +4, Knowledge (Local) +4, Knowledge (Nature) +4, Knowledge (Nobility) +6, Knowledge (Planes) +4, Knowledge (Religion) +4, Perception +4, Perform (Dance) +12, Perform (Sing) +7, Spellcraft +7, Use Magic Device +7
Languages Common
SQ Animal Friend: birds, Bardic Performance: Soothing Performance, Summon Nature's Ally, Tea Ceremony (Su), Versatile Dance +12 (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Mithral Buckler, Bolts, Crossbow (20), Masterwork Crossbow, Light, Masterwork Gauntlet, Spiked, Masterwork Whip, Nine-section; Other Gear Artisan's tools, masterwork: Craft (Calligraphy), Backpack, Masterwork (empty), Bracers of Armor, +1, Ring of Protection, +1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Animal Friend: birds +4 to Handle Animal vs chosen kind, start as indifferent & won't attack.
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Augment Summoning Summoned creatures have +4 to Strength and Constitution.
Bardic Performance (standard action) (13 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +1 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Bardic Performance: Soothing Performance As Wild Empathy, but use perform with other class' bonus to check.
Spell Focus: Conjuration Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Summon Nature's Ally Add summon spells to your bard spell list.
Tea Ceremony (Su) Can use other bardic performances in alternate fashion for long duration.
Versatile Dance +12 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Dance skill for Acrobatics or Fly checks
--- Gold left: ~260 gp for usual gear and scribe scrolls ---
... and consider the following:
- You *can* use tea ceremony, but you don't have to, you can still use bardic performances the usual way. However, often you know that a big fight is ahead. Prebuffing this way and dropping silence near enemy spellcasters can quickly cripple them.
- silence, taken instead of glitterdust which was my strongest other suggestion, opens many options for stealth, crippling enemy spellcasters, countering sonic-based attacks etc. Few opponents are prepared for it, and it is quite versatile. Also, the other characters of your team - except for the wizard, he needs to be warned or prepared - do not really rely on audible components or spells, so this tactic will not hurt them. You yourself can easily stay out of reach, summoning critters right next to badies to attack them, take hits, provide flanking bonuses etc.
- Note that nature allies are usually neutral, so magic circles won't stop them later.
- Your weak point is armor. I tried to provide a combination of bracers, dex and ring of protection to bring it to an acceptable level. Note that even though you are not proficient with shields, a mithral buckler has no ASF or ACP, so you can use it to get an acceptable AC anyway. Upgrade it later. Also, use vanish and acrobatics to stay/get out of harms way, and remember summoning, buffing or saving allies does not count as an attack and will still keep you invisible.
- I chose featherfall cause falling really can finish that group of yours. If your wizard always prepares it, choose another spell, e.g. summon monster I.
- Get a longspear if you want to. I chose the nine-section whip as your monk weapon because its versatile. If you prefer crits, go for another weapon. However, I suggest you stay out of reach and use a crossbow until you can afford better AC via bracers of armor, shields, rings and the blur spell.
- Get craft wondrous item if you want to save tons of money on the bracers. In fact, you could swap arcane strike for it and take that at level 5.
- Via perform dance, versatile dance and geisha bonus your acrobatics will start to increase quickly. If you took skill focus (perform dance), it will start to really be hard preventing you from tumbling away or doing amazing feats, earning tons of money etc.
- I did not choose cure light wounds in favor of saving finale. Maybe get a wand or replace the spell, but be sure not to be drawn into the role of the healer - you won't have spells left to summon anything then.
- I did not add trait since I do not know if you are allowed them. If you are, consider those giving you bonuses to concentration, initiative, or the one that reduces or metamagic level for one spell by one - cure light wounds would be a top candidate for that combined with reach spell IMO.
- Superior summoning is a natural extension of your current feat set. In fact, all the feats that boost your summoning without extra cost are great for this character.
- If you find yourself staying ranged, point-blank shot, precise shot etc. will help you. Consider taking maybe 1 or 2 levels of fighter for the extra feats.
- You dance (OK, probably just wiggle your fingers, but still... ;-)) to calm animals. Quite cool I think, and it might help you around a few situations (sneaking up to the dog-guarded camp, avoiding a fight with angry bears, ...).
- You cannot buff all your allies with tea ceremony yet. Consider who needs it most, buff the rest in combat. Or get extra performance and lingering performance feats soon.
- Choose another animal if you prefer. I just thought birds were cool. Get speak with animals later, gather intelligence this way.
- You do not *look* like a warrior, a bard or the like. By wearing monk robes you might be misjudged by others - advantage for you. Surprise them!
Well, I realize this is kind of unusual and possibly suboptimal. Still, it might be fun to try out :-)
Holy wall of text batman.
Hehe, sorry about that :-) I already tried to structure it and keep it short :-P
... I don't think whip is that great right now. Low damage and very feat intensive doesn't really speak to me, especially when the longspear is just so nice.
Certainly, longspear is a very nice weapon. Whips are cool if you have automatic proficiency and use them for maneuvers - they are amongst the most versatile weapons for that purpose, and whip proficiency applies to several weapons at once :-)
The feat line till improved whip mastery is quite intensive and costly, yes. It certainly is not *always* worth it, but there is quite a bit of out of combat utility, and you get a weapon which is reach and non-reach at the same time.
I've decided that should my Magus feel the need to part ways from the group to go Human Archer Bard (Savage Skald archetype, as they're in the Linnorn Kingdoms right now). Character would likely come in at level 5 (we are very close right now).
Str: 14
Dex: 17 (+1 from level 4) = 18
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 14
The Str is to allow him to melee if ever need to, plus he is... viking.. So should have a decent score.
Feats: PB Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim (becomes better than Arcane Strike at 6th level when I hit 4 BAB)
So I've calculated the following Full Attack with: Good Hope, IC +2, Haste (from the wizard until i can cast it), PB Shot, Deadly Aim, and Rapid Shot.. Might be off by 1-2 at most (was all quick math using my iPhone to browse the pages).
+1 Comp (+2) Shortbow: 11/11/11 (1d6+10)
The gunslinger may finally realize he built very poorly... But seeing as how he is the reason I would bring in a new character thats okay (and the GM would likely compensate him with Advanced Firearms).
Bards are awesome.
Where you running nightsticks and divine metamagic? Your DM is new to the game probably right? Personally I think that banning someone from divine casters and not arcane casters is silly. However if you want deathstar damage consider the alchemist, summoner, barbarian, or zen archer. Also a bard might be good considering you have three attackers(not including yourself) Meaning that buffs will go a long way. If you play a bard I suggest going dervish dancer or archer bard.
Feats: PB Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim (becomes better than Arcane Strike at 6th level when I hit 4 BAB)The gunslinger may finally realize he built very poorly... But seeing as how he is the reason I would bring in a new character thats okay (and the GM would likely compensate him with Advanced Firearms).
Bards are awesome.
See, you're thinking damage dealer again. Isn't that what caused the original problem?
Bards need lingering performance. Triples bard usage.
Also knock down your DEX and boost your CHA.
Try a party support PC rather than a star.
The original problem has nothing to do with damage, in fact the Paladin does the most damage by far. It's just an RP conflict with no easy resolution. So I figured that rather than asking his character to step out, I would have mine step out.
My original call was for a character that could still do damage- after all I still want something fun to play. The loss of a Magus' DPR is pretty significant and not entirely made up by the buffs a bard can bring.
Spell selection ended up being almost entirely Immediate Action spells for buffs and rerolls.
My only issue with Lingering Performance is that it's a huge action investment (standard every 3 rounds). Will likely take it at 7 when it's a move action (and in case I decide to go Arcane Duelist instead - can you have two Lingering Performance at once?). With one trait and current stats I have 17 rounds/day.. Which seems like plenty for now.
Extra Cha really gives nothing in terms of extra support as far as I can see, beyond more performance and bonus spell/DC. Tradeoff from attack, AC, ref, and initiative just does not seem worth it.