Expert sure, but I dunno about Commoner. There's a lot of stuff an actual priest needs to know that 2+Int skills can't cover very well.Then said commoner would not be a very good priest, which does not mean he can't be one.
I'm also not sure what priests "need to know." Priests are called upon to lead ceremonies. This doesn't imply that they provide religious instruction, that they settle theological disputes, or even that they provide pastoral counseling. Priests in the (real-world) Middle Ages were often illiterate ex-peasants. As long as they could memorize the words of the Latin Mass (which none of their parishoners understood anyway), they were fine.
Given the structure of the Golarion pantheon, I might be inclined to say that not only are all priests spellcasters, but nearly all followers of a specific faith period would be spellcasters.
Yes, but the real question boils down to who is authorized by the church.
No, but anyone who is formally expected and authorized to talk about their deity is a priest.
Which is exactly my point. There's no indication anywhere in the books that spellcasting is even a consideration for receiving authorization to lead services.
You're right there isn't. But there's also no indication it's not.
Perhaps my point is a little easier to understand if I bring up this. Golarion is a high magic world. This is not a world where people don't see or experience magic in their lifetime. Everyone will see it at some point. It might not be much, but it will happen. Were not talking a low magic setting. We're talking Golarion. If we were talking about Dragonlance, where there is almost no magic then I agree you wouldn't have all priest be spell casters. But in Golarion where magic is rampant, I can't imagine people putting much "faith" in those that can't cast divine spells. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if there is a divine spell caster present to represent a religion they're going to be the priest before the non-spell caster. I also don't think someone who can't cast would be able to raise to a parituclarly high position within the church (generally speaking). I think at best you might be the leader of a backwater church that is unimportant to the point that no goes there, except the 50 people that live in the thorp and the trader who passes by once a year.
Not to mention many of the Chaotic (and even Neutral) deities along the Law-Chaos spectrum do not have formal churches that some are thinking about.
Many of the Chaotic deities in Golarion (Cayden, Gorum, Desna etc..)are called out as having loose, if not non-existent hierarchical churches.With that being said, I feel like there is no "formal" authorization for those churches to begin with.
Now the Law deities (Abadar, Iomadae, Asmodeus etc...) might have something different to say about that since both the god and the church are Lawful and probably have fairly strict hierarchies (the Catholic church hierarchy comes to mind when I think Lawful churches)
This actually does lead into another point I wanted to make, which was that I don't think deities that don't have formal churches would have priests. Priests perform rituals and rights on behalf of their deities for the congregation of the church. That is the priest's purpose. If there is not a proper congregation, there is not a priest. You could be a representative of your god. You could be the Maw of Rovagug. But you wouldn't be a priest.
I think perhaps the main argument here is about how we are all defining priest. I think I am defining it in a very strict sense, while many seem to be thinking of it in the sense of proselytizing without the performing of rights on behalf of the deity's follower.
Anyone can proselytize, not everyone doing so is a priest.
Not everyone views things in terms of dungeon delving utility.
It's not about dungeon delving utility. But knowing that your priest can magically heal your cold or flu, and magical patch you up when you've been injured out tilling your farm are reasonable things commoners to be worried about too. And, it allows their god to show that they care about their well being by using their power to heal them.
Not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a metropolis isn't guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th-level spells.
So a small town has access to first level spell casting. Now, it's not necessarily divine caster, but you've got a 50/50 shot that it is. A ssmall town is 200 people and up. So villages, hamlets, and thorps (places with less than 200 people) are not assured of having spellcasting services.
Personally, I think the chances that your spell casting services are provided by divine spell casters is actually higher than arcane casters. And why do i bring this up? Because I am only expecting the priest of being capable of casting 1st level spells (or having divine SLAs) as proof of their bond with their deity. I'm not saying they need to be a 10th level cleric. But I am saying I practically expect them to be capable of casting Cure Light Wounds.
The fact that Absalom doesn't have magical cisterns and continual flame lanterns doesn't mean the world isn't high magic. You're guaranteed to find access to 8th level spells there. It's not "MAGIC EVERYWHERE FOR EVERYTHING EVER!", but it's still high magic. There's a baked in expectation of magic marts and being able to readily find magic items (with certain GP amounts) in the proper markets.
I think at this point, where arguing about what is and isn't "high magic", which isn't really the point. The point is more, Golarion has enough magic that it shouldn't be difficult to have a divine spellcaster as the leader of a church unless the size of the "city" is less than 200 people.
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Just my opinion, it's too long so nobody will read it all anyway, but here it is for the sake of General Discussion:
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Relevant to this discussion, which of the following describes how you think people become spellcasting clerics:
a) I cast divine spells therefore I will become a cleric (the class)
or
b) I am a cleric (the class) therefore I can cast divine spells
It's an important distinction.
Remember that the word "cleric" simply means "priest", so in the simplest sense these two words are synonymous. One happens to be a class that happens to cast spells, the other is just a word that has no clear definition in Pathfinder rules or in Golarion - but they're still synonymous.
So if your answer is A, then commoner Joe wakes up one day and finds out he can cast divine spells (perhaps a reward from his god for being such a devout and faithful follower), so he then becomes a cleric AFTER gaining spellcasting ability. If your answer is B, then commoner Frank wakes up some day and decides to go apply for a cleric job, nails the interview and becomes a cleric, and then, after a suitable training period he learns how to cast divine spells.
With regard to this discussion, if your answer is A then ALL clerics (the class) can cast divine spells because that's how people become clerics; by already being spellcasters. No big deal. But to me, this feels a little weird. "What? I can cast spells now? AWESOME! I don't know how that happened but I LOVE IT! I think I'll go be a cleric..."
But if your answer is B, that cleric powers are bestowed upon active clergy members as a reward for doing their job well, then the followup question is very telling: since gods reward faithful clergy with cleric powers, what does that say about clergy without cleric powers?
Seems to me it suggests that non-clerical clergy are unfaithful or, at least, out of favor with their god. The best answer is that they're very new and haven't finished their training yet.
By that view, the neophytes, acolytes, altar boys, whatever, are all the clerics-in-training. These guys might one cay become clerics, or maybe not, but they're not clerics yet. Once they become fully canonized clerics, they ARE clerics and they can cast spells. That includes the synonym of "priest" too (an "acolyte" is not a "priest" but a "cleric" is).
A religion might have other kinds of clergymen. This could include paladins, monks, guards (any martial class), theurges (any arcane class), assassins (yeah, some religions are like that), and whatever else is important to the specific religion. All these non-cleric classes, including commoner classes too, might very well be clergymen but are not likely to actually be called "clerics" or "priests" - but because their organization includes them under the broader definition of "clergymen" and/or "priesthood", well, that's how you find Golarion religions listing non-cleric classes as part of the priesthood".
Some few of them might even step up and give sermons, perform rituals (marriage, etc.), and even run temples or whatnot, but I imagine those are the rare cases; usually they default those responsibilities to the fully trained and prepared clerics who actually signed up for those jobs. Usually. There's always exceptions.
But I also imagine those exceptions will have an uphill battle convincing followers to trust them when they don't yet [i]seem to have the favor of their own god.
Side note: the above includes the oracle class too as just a different kind of cleric/priest.
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To your first statement:
cleric =/= priest
A cleric is a class metagame construct that gives certain powers and abilities. A priest is someone that gives guidance in the following of an in game god.
To your question:
Divine spells is a class feature, therefore the class comes first. Just because you worship a god doesn't mean they answer.
They are stronger because they don't need the gods direct support, or they chose a different path of service while still providing the same guidance in the following of an in game god.
Divine spells are also a class feature of the oracle which requires no Deity, as well as the druid (again no deity).
My homebrew race's monks do not have levels in the monk class. They're typically magi, instead. They tend to lack the discipline and tradition to become traditional monks (Wisdom penalty). Magic and language plays an integral part of their society, so their monks tend to be magi that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
Technically, I think Oracles are granted divine power by deity or deities, but it's whether they want it or not. And they don't lose the power by not acting in accordance with a specific deity's dogma.
Druids do not necessarily have a deity, but those who do not usually follow the Green Path, which is a religion.
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This whole conversation is kinda void since it is totally 100% canon that there are priests who lack divine casting in Golarion, especially the deities with very loosely defined hierarchies. Nethys has priests who only cast arcane spells, the local "temple" of Cayden Cailean is just a bar and its high priest is the bartender.
This whole conversation is kinda void since it is totally 100% canon that there are priests who lack divine casting in Golarion, especially the deities with very loosely defined hierarchies. Nethys has priests who only cast arcane spells, the local "temple" of Cayden Cailean is just a bar and its high priest is the bartender.
Not really. I took this more as a disucssion of "what is the likelihood" or "how often will we see".
Because I agree it's possible, just that it's super uncommon.
This whole conversation is kinda void since it is totally 100% canon that there are priests who lack divine casting in Golarion, especially the deities with very loosely defined hierarchies. Nethys has priests who only cast arcane spells, the local "temple" of Cayden Cailean is just a bar and its high priest is the bartender.Not really. I took this more as a disucssion of "what is the likelihood" or "how often will we see".
Because I agree it's possible, just that it's super uncommon.
How do you mean "super uncommon"? Like its rare, or just uncommon? Because we have lots of examples of major deities in the setting doing just this. In fact iirc there was a tidbit tucked away in one of the settings put that suggested that non-casting priests actually outweigh the casting priests, in most religions.
Or maybe that was simply the clergy as a whole that they were talking about.
Either way it seems, well, not rare with the amount it happens across the entire pantheon.
Honestly I see it about the same as I see the "party positions" -- it's the role in the party you fill, not what your class is named.
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Not all priests are spell casters. Not all spell casters that are priests are clerics. Some gods may prefer to have priests of a certain type (as others have mentioned, priests of Norgorber may be rogues, and priests of Nethys may be wizards).
Adhistin is a man wearing clerical robes capable of channeling positive energy, with a tiny attendant angel who can summon swarms of angels to deal with his foes. He specializes in diplomatic solutions to issues and believes even the worst of fiends can be redeemed through positive discourse.
He's pretty sure he's a priest of Sarenrae, although he might not be a cleric. She doesn't grant him divine powers, but he found an alternate power source (arcane magic) and is getting by just fine. He is not as capable of healing as a "real" cleric but with access to 6th-level arcane magic he can usually find a way to cure any ailment or affliction.
This whole conversation is kinda void since it is totally 100% canon that there are priests who lack divine casting in Golarion, especially the deities with very loosely defined hierarchies. Nethys has priests who only cast arcane spells, the local "temple" of Cayden Cailean is just a bar and its high priest is the bartender.Not really. I took this more as a disucssion of "what is the likelihood" or "how often will we see".
Because I agree it's possible, just that it's super uncommon.
How do you mean "super uncommon"? Like its rare, or just uncommon? Because we have lots of examples of major deities in the setting doing just this. In fact iirc there was a tidbit tucked away in one of the settings put that suggested that non-casting priests actually outweigh the casting priests, in most religions.
Or maybe that was simply the clergy as a whole that they were talking about.
Either way it seems, well, not rare with the amount it happens across the entire pantheon.
Honestly I see it about the same as I see the "party positions" -- it's the role in the party you fill, not what your class is named.
Can you find this tidbit? I am curious. I'm positive non-spellcasting members of a church would outweight the spell casters, but not all members are priests.
And by super uncommon, I mean rare relative to the number of non-spellcasting priest/total number of priests.
This whole conversation is kinda void since it is totally 100% canon that there are priests who lack divine casting in Golarion, especially the deities with very loosely defined hierarchies. Nethys has priests who only cast arcane spells, the local "temple" of Cayden Cailean is just a bar and its high priest is the bartender.Not really. I took this more as a disucssion of "what is the likelihood" or "how often will we see".
Because I agree it's possible, just that it's super uncommon.
The question of "how common is it" is a different question than "does it exist". I am sure we are discussing do they exist, which the answer is yes.
Now if we want to discuss how common it is we need to ask the question does priest mean "head of the local church" or does it mean "ordained representative of the local church".
If it means head of the local church then I would think it is more normal to have a spellcaster in charge, but since spell casters are not common a church would certainly have those who can administer the faith, and know certain religious ceremonies, and do other things.
This whole conversation is kinda void since it is totally 100% canon that there are priests who lack divine casting in Golarion, especially the deities with very loosely defined hierarchies. Nethys has priests who only cast arcane spells, the local "temple" of Cayden Cailean is just a bar and its high priest is the bartender.Not really. I took this more as a disucssion of "what is the likelihood" or "how often will we see".
Because I agree it's possible, just that it's super uncommon.
How do you mean "super uncommon"? Like its rare, or just uncommon? Because we have lots of examples of major deities in the setting doing just this. In fact iirc there was a tidbit tucked away in one of the settings put that suggested that non-casting priests actually outweigh the casting priests, in most religions.
Or maybe that was simply the clergy as a whole that they were talking about.
Either way it seems, well, not rare with the amount it happens across the entire pantheon.
Honestly I see it about the same as I see the "party positions" -- it's the role in the party you fill, not what your class is named.
Can you find this tidbit? I am curious. I'm positive non-spellcasting members of a church would outweight the spell casters, but not all members are priests.
And by super uncommon, I mean rare relative to the number of non-spellcasting priest/total number of priests.
Honestly No I cannot. I do not have access to all the campaign specific stuff, a guy I played with did and would let me read it, since I have moved that has not been possible.
However with that said I think it was in one of the older books, and was specifically dealing with the overarching campaign guides or religion guides -- not 100% of course.
This whole conversation is kinda void since it is totally 100% canon that there are priests who lack divine casting in Golarion, especially the deities with very loosely defined hierarchies. Nethys has priests who only cast arcane spells, the local "temple" of Cayden Cailean is just a bar and its high priest is the bartender.Not really. I took this more as a disucssion of "what is the likelihood" or "how often will we see".
Because I agree it's possible, just that it's super uncommon.
AKA less than two in three Desnan priests are clerics, and one of the "about one-third" classes is the non-casting rogue. Not exactly what I'd call "super uncommon".
This whole conversation is kinda void since it is totally 100% canon that there are priests who lack divine casting in Golarion, especially the deities with very loosely defined hierarchies. Nethys has priests who only cast arcane spells, the local "temple" of Cayden Cailean is just a bar and its high priest is the bartender.Not really. I took this more as a disucssion of "what is the likelihood" or "how often will we see".
Because I agree it's possible, just that it's super uncommon.
The question of "how common is it" is a different question than "does it exist". I am sure we are discussing do they exist, which the answer is yes.
Now if we want to discuss how common it is we need to ask the question does priest mean "head of the local church" or does it mean "ordained representative of the local church".
If it means head of the local church then I would think it is more normal to have a spellcaster in charge, but since spell casters are not common a church would certainly have those who can administer the faith, and know certain religious ceremonies, and do other things.
The idea that spellcasters aren't common always struck me as odd -- most the classes have spell casting. 18 of the 32 PC classes are casters if we don't count the alchemist and investigator 20 if we do. If we include the 4 NPC classes we come up to 19 out of 36 or 21 out of 36.
Just noticing is all, I'm not willing to get into that discussion again right yet.
This whole conversation is kinda void since it is totally 100% canon that there are priests who lack divine casting in Golarion, especially the deities with very loosely defined hierarchies. Nethys has priests who only cast arcane spells, the local "temple" of Cayden Cailean is just a bar and its high priest is the bartender.Not really. I took this more as a disucssion of "what is the likelihood" or "how often will we see".
Because I agree it's possible, just that it's super uncommon.
The question of "how common is it" is a different question than "does it exist". I am sure we are discussing do they exist, which the answer is yes.
Now if we want to discuss how common it is we need to ask the question does priest mean "head of the local church" or does it mean "ordained representative of the local church".
If it means head of the local church then I would think it is more normal to have a spellcaster in charge, but since spell casters are not common a church would certainly have those who can administer the faith, and know certain religious ceremonies, and do other things.
The idea that spellcasters aren't common always struck me as odd -- most the classes have spell casting. 18 of the 32 PC classes are casters if we don't count the alchemist and investigator 20 if we do. If we include the 4 NPC classes we come up to 19 out of 36 or 21 out of 36.
Just noticing is all, I'm not willing to get into that discussion again right yet.
Paizo created more classes, so I don't know how they expect to handle it in their lore , but the idea is that it is rare for someone to have the aptitude to be a PC class.
I know in the DMG there was a chart that had you roll for the max level of any one class based on the settlement size, and that made them rare with regard to core classes. However with 32 classes I don't know how rare it is. I guess we are supposed to pretend there are the same number of PC classes but less of each specific class.
I am not aware if Paizo used the 3.5 chart unofficially, or if they are not bothering to have a system, just to say the classes are rare. Personally I just make the classes beyond the CRB very rare. That way Paizo can create all of the classes they want, and the gameworld does not change much.
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The idea that spellcasters aren't common always struck me as odd -- most the classes have spell casting.
It's entirely possible that 90% of people are Commoners, and 9% are Warriors, Experts or Aristocrats. We have no definitive information on the subject. (And I have to assume the reality of Golarion warps every time a bunch of new classes are released, and suddenly Desna has lots of Warpriests or whatever.)
That being said, non-divine priest are interesting from a plot perspective because they can't actually fall, unless they are evangelists/sentinels/some archetypes/have faith feats or whatever, so having one of them be a heretical leader of a congregation or splinter sect becomes more feasible.
Also, while I'd imagine that most non-cleric priests would chose not to be such, for instance by focusing on Irori's spiritual enlightenment by emulating his dedication as a monk, "cleric-envy" could be a cause for internal strife in a church were certain priest simply won't receive spells from their patron, be it due to mismatched alignments, unimpressive wisdom scores or other reasons.
This whole conversation is kinda void since it is totally 100% canon that there are priests who lack divine casting in Golarion, especially the deities with very loosely defined hierarchies. Nethys has priests who only cast arcane spells, the local "temple" of Cayden Cailean is just a bar and its high priest is the bartender.Not really. I took this more as a disucssion of "what is the likelihood" or "how often will we see".
Because I agree it's possible, just that it's super uncommon.
** spoiler omitted **
AKA less than two in three Desnan priests are clerics, and one of the "about one-third" classes is the non-casting rogue. Not exactly what I'd call "super uncommon".
Alright, so we have data for one deity. It does dispute the general claim that I put forth, but my claim is for general deities not a specific one.
Also, I think you might be reading that differently form me. Because the way I read it, at least 2/3 are druids, rangers, or clerics.
It might also be read as 2/3 cleric, plus 1/3 as bards, rogues, rangers, and druids.
Do we have data for any other deities?
The idea that spellcasters aren't common always struck me as odd -- most the classes have spell casting.It's entirely possible that 90% of people are Commoners, and 9% are Warriors, Experts or Aristocrats. We have no definitive information on the subject. (And I have to assume the reality of Golarion warps every time a bunch of new classes are released, and suddenly Desna has lots of Warpriests or whatever.)
Yeah I have a lot of work into this with my "Joe the Farmer" thread. PC levels don't seem really rare, but having an NPC with just PC levels is.
This is generally supported by the posts of the various members of Paizo about the overall world, but I do fully agree there is not set percentage that we know or that we could reasonably deduce things from beyond what I have in the mentioned thread and various NPC guides.
Do we have data for any other deities?
The only other fractional one I find with the search function in the PDF is a note that 1/10th of Gozreh's priests are Druids, but most of the gods have a blurb about which classes make up the priesthood. Most notably:
Though I suspect that this is a bit of an oversight and that clerics would still be the plurality, if not the majority. Especially since the "Temples and Shrines" section states that the faith's "guildmasters" are most commonly rogues, assassins or clerics, though I'd imagine that rogue/cleric multiclassing would be common.
So my next question then I guess is:
What does Paizo mean when they say priest and clergy?
Because, it is perhaps as Wraithstrike said above, that I have a different definition of priest in mind that Paizo does.
Yeah I have a lot of work into this with my "Joe the Farmer" thread. PC levels don't seem really rare, but having an NPC with just PC levels is.There is a certain former aristocrat who actually is specified to have retrained all of her aristocrat levels into Paladin as a testament as to how dedicated she was to her new cause.
That's pretty awesome. Is that in an AP, or part of one of the novels?
So my next question then I guess is:
What does Paizo mean when they say priest and clergy?
Because, it is perhaps as Wraithstrike said above, that I have a different definition of priest in mind that Paizo does.
Maybe thus?
Priest: a person who has the authority to lead or perform ceremonies in some religions and especially in some Christian religions
and
Clergy: people (such as priests) who are the leaders of a religion and who perform religious services
Since those are the definitions of the words.
Seems to cover everything that is actually need of a priest and requires absolutely no spellcasting ability whatsoever in most cases (Nethys is probably different).
The idea that spellcasters aren't common always struck me as odd -- most the classes have spell casting. 18 of the 32 PC classes are casters if we don't count the alchemist and investigator 20 if we do. If we include the 4 NPC classes we come up to 19 out of 36 or 21 out of 36.
This is only relevant if all classes are equally common, which is, frankly, ludicrous.
First, Golarion doesn't have the kind of industrialized economy that would permit that. Without modern industrial farming, a farming family is extremely hard-pressed to to support a single other family than themselves (more typically, it would take 9-10 families of farmers to support a single non-farming family). Even allowing for some improvements due to magic, it's probably a safe bet that 80% of the population farms the land, and another 10% works on resource extraction (mining, lumbering, et cetera). While there's no reason that a wizard can't decide to become a shepherd, in a world where most people know they're going to be farmers, there's no reason to try to learn magic they'll never be able to use or exploit. (Most of the farmers and miners are probably commoners, with a few experts thrown in.)
Second, some classes are simply easier to get into than others. This is official in the starting ages; a (human) rogue typically starts work at age 17, but a wizard or cleric at age 22. Those five years of training aren't free -- even if the schooling itself were free, one still needs to pay for five years of room and board, and there's also a huge opportunity cost in not-working for those five years.
In addition to the economic argument, there's also a psychological one. Not everyone is able to defer gratification for long enough to get all that schooling (which is part of why, in the real world, not everyone goes on for Ph.D. studies after completing a B.A., and why 50% of Ph.D. students don't get their degrees).
This, of course, is completely ignoring issues of aptitude, which is another (third) factor. In the real world, even if I were somehow to offer to cover all the costs of your attendance at Harvard Law School, there's a good chance you'd be released from the program ("flunk out") before graduation, simply because the people there are SO GOOD and because Harvard, like most law schools, makes a habit of culling the merely-average from their classes on a regular basis. (The average LSAT score, among people who sit it, which of course is already a pretty selective group, roughly 150. The average LSAT score among students accepted to Harvard Law is 168. The average score among students who complete their degrees is higher yet.) While this isn't part of the official game mechanics (because PCs are assumed to be superior to the vast mass of humanity), it's something to be considered when we're talking class demographics.
And finally, of course, there's the issue of The Gift, which is basically "aptitude" turned all the way up to eleven.... If the gods haven't chosen you, you'll never be an oracle, If no patron accepts you, you'll never be a witch. I see no reason to believe that Saranrae will grant spells to anyone who asks.... (Yes, she'll grant spells to any PC who asks,... but that's because, again, PCs are special.)
So I'd be very surprised if even 1% of Golarion's population were 9-level spell-casters. As I outlined above, at least 90% of the population will be working commoner-type jobs and probably NPC classes if not outright commoners. Of the remaining 10%, the overwhelming majority will be "intuitive" or "self-taught" classes such as rogues and fighters; trained classes such as "monk" will be rare. And trained classes that require some sort of external benefit, such as being accepted by a deity or having the right set of parents will be rarer yet.
Except nothing about class actually ties in with anything you said.
Each level is exactly has hard to get as any other level, even in NPC classes.
All you need in a stat to cast is a 10 for cantrips.
I will agree there is more of an argument against some types of casters.
However more people than just the two of us have been round and round on this issue before. So instead I'll simply say this is an argument for another thread (as I said before) and one that has been had often already.
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone discussing people who enter the church as a vocation rather than as a higher calling. You've got to have someplace for non-inheriting noble sons to go, and it was usually the military or the clergy. I would expect connected noble's relatives to rise in the hierarchy of the church whether or not they could cast spells, due to their connections and access to money.
A cynical person might even think in a highly organized, benevolent church the actually devout- those who are actually beloved and blessed by their gods and can cast spells- might have a hard time rising in the ranks through large numbers of political operators who see the church as nothing more than a route to power or wealth or as just a job. Or those people who can cast CLW could get farmed out to remote communities to establish new temples, so they could find it hard to get out of their tiny parish and rise up the ranks of the church's leadership. In either case, non-spellcasting priests would still be priests, unless we want to say ecclesiastical officers aren't priests. They would probably disagree, though
And wouldn't gods prefer leaders of their churches to be those who embody their ideals? The best businessman in Absalom might not cast any spells but could be Abadar's favorite person to watch negotiate contracts and could be called to service as a leader of the church. Or Iomedae's favorite mortal could be the best tactician in Lastwall, not the most devout priest of her faith. That leads back to the 'what comes first, spells or the mantle of priesthood', though.
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone discussing people who enter the church as a vocation rather than as a higher calling. You've got to have someplace for non-inheriting noble sons to go, and it was usually the military or the clergy. I would expect connected noble's relatives to rise in the hierarchy of the church whether or not they could cast spells, due to their connections and access to money.
That's really restating the question in another form. Can people join a church and treat it as a job instead of a calling? Historically, the church was a place to put third sons in part because they couldn't do much damage there and because they could be expected to rise. But if in Golarion, spell-casting is a de-facto requirement for advancement, then a noble scion without spell casting ability would still not have spell casting ability and would be a deacon all his life.
There are some professions where primogeniture can substitute for ability -- the peacetime military is a good example. There are some where it can't; just because you're the conductor's son doesn't mean you'll be a good violinist. (I'm having a hard time coming up with a second generation A-list rock star. Ziggy Marley, maybe?)
However nothing about being a priest actually requires the ability to do magic.
There is no "wedding" spell, No "baptism" spell, et al.
The basic requirements are readily handled by skill checks.
Honestly it wasn't the priests people went to for healing generally.
Is there a class that is favored by the gods and granted magical power? Yes.
Is that class required to spread the word about a given god, and guide others in the faith? No.
Nothing about cleric other than the fact you get banhammered by your deity suggests they would be any better at leading the flock than any other class.
Cleric demonstrate the power of a specific god sure, but demonstrating power isn't the same as leading, or winning hearts and minds.
This whole conversation is kinda void since it is totally 100% canon that there are priests who lack divine casting in Golarion, especially the deities with very loosely defined hierarchies. Nethys has priests who only cast arcane spells, the local "temple" of Cayden Cailean is just a bar and its high priest is the bartender.Not really. I took this more as a disucssion of "what is the likelihood" or "how often will we see".
Because I agree it's possible, just that it's super uncommon.
** spoiler omitted **
AKA less than two in three Desnan priests are clerics, and one of the "about one-third" classes is the non-casting rogue. Not exactly what I'd call "super uncommon".
Druids and Rangers are still divine casters tho
That's really restating the question in another form. Can people join a church and treat it as a job instead of a calling? Historically, the church was a place to put third sons in part because they couldn't do much damage there and because they could be expected to rise. But if in Golarion, spell-casting is a de-facto requirement for advancement, then a noble scion without spell casting ability would still not have spell casting ability and would be a deacon all his life.
There are some professions where primogeniture can substitute for ability -- the peacetime military is a good example. There are some where it can't; just because you're the conductor's son doesn't mean you'll be a good violinist. (I'm having a hard time coming up with a second generation A-list rock star. Ziggy Marley, maybe?)
That's fair, and maybe it's cynical of me, but I figure that any large, organized group is going to want to ingratiate itself with the leadership of the countries it operates in. Whether it's the church of Abadar or the Aspis Consortium, it benefits the organization to have people in leadership roles who are from the same background as those in government. And churches always need money; they're more likely to get lots of money if their leaders can go talk to their friends or family members than if a stranger who happens to be able to cast spells comes and cold calls the castle.
I'm not saying I think we'd get a non-magical Borgia as pope equivalent, since the church would probably want the earthly head of the religion to have a clear, unmistakable sign of their god's favor as demonstrated by an ability to cast spell, but as cardinals and bishops and the curiae? Sure. I don't see why access to money and temporal power would be less of a superpower in the game world than it is in the real world.
That's fair, and maybe it's cynical of me, but I figure that any large, organized group is going to want to ingratiate itself with the leadership of the countries it operates in.That's really restating the question in another form. Can people join a church and treat it as a job instead of a calling? Historically, the church was a place to put third sons in part because they couldn't do much damage there and because they could be expected to rise. But if in Golarion, spell-casting is a de-facto requirement for advancement, then a noble scion without spell casting ability would still not have spell casting ability and would be a deacon all his life.
There are some professions where primogeniture can substitute for ability -- the peacetime military is a good example. There are some where it can't; just because you're the conductor's son doesn't mean you'll be a good violinist. (I'm having a hard time coming up with a second generation A-list rock star. Ziggy Marley, maybe?)
Definitely. But that still doesn't mean that the Varisia Symphony Orchestra is going to let the Earl of Bittlesworth's third son play violin in it unless he has the necessary talent.
One of the things that actually happened historically is that a number of religious organizations (especially those with onerous vows) created parallel organizations for the local gentry to participate without actual participating. (See, for example, the Knights of Malta, who require the standard triple oath of actual (First Class) members, but are happy to accept members of the Third Class who simply think that the KM are good guys....) And of course, that's what real symphony orchestras do as well; the people who run the fundraising are not the people who play the music. Hospitals as well; there's usually some sort of advisory board headed by someone notable like the local governor or duke, but kept carefully away from any anything resembling policy-making.
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The idea that the priest has a special mystical connection to the deity is extremely common in religion. In the medieval church, it was believed that ordination wasn't merely a diploma but an investment of divine grace in the priest, granting them special powers to eg literally transform the bread and wine of communion into the Body and Blood of Christ. The protestant reformation is responsible for the idea in Christiantity (and therefore modern western culture) that the priest has no special powers and is merely trained to minister to the congregation. I think that clerics were originally modeled after the idea of medieval clergy in the same way that paladins are inspired by the crusaders.
I would expect that in a setting where deities take an active interest in their followers and frequently invest them with divine power, most if not all religious leaders would have some visible sign of their deity's favour, most commonly spellcasting. This both assists the priest in serving the deity, and validates them in the eyes of the community.
That doesn't mean that every priest will be a full-level cleric. I tend to use low-level adepts for village priests, and I can see a vocational priest being an expert/adept or aristocrat/adept easily. Someone with simply average Wisdom can cast a few divine spells, after all, and I would expect priests with below-average Wisdom to be bad at even mundane ministry.
It seems extremely natural to me that monks acting as priests of Irori would also have a level or two in cleric (if they're not converting to sacred fist warpriest). The best businessman in Absalom almost certainly has an above-average charisma and may be called to leadership in the form of developing minor oracular powers (with the legalistic curse). Such a person could easily become the equivalent of a bishop or cardinal. But Abadar neglecting to invest the smallest amount of his power in a mortal who pleases him so much... that's a little odd.
I wouldn't expect spellcasting to be too rare to be possessed by every priest, either. If we trust the Domesday Book, a medieval setting will have less than one priest per 1000 people. This seems about right - a priest leads a parish and while their size is rather variable it seems they are often centered around towns or else consist of several villages. The hireling rules cited above indicate about one spellcaster per small town (200-2000 people) but the settlement guidelines are much more liberal about spellcasting and indicate that a small town may have spellcasting up to level 4 available. In any case, it seems highly likely that there is at least one adept for every 1000 people even without a very high magic setting.
Now, the Domesday Book also lists about one clergymember per 40 people; or a little over 30 clergymembers for every actual priest. It seems to me that the non-priest clergy would largely be made up of cloistered monks & nuns, who were the primary academics of the period, and also some deacons or congregational elders who assist the priest in their ministry either directly or by leading smaller settlements in the parish. They would not be fully ordained and would thus not be expected to have the divine powers (or responsibilities) of the priest. Some of these non-priestly clergy could even be extremely influential - abesses had roughly the same powers as a bishop but could not administer sacraments (nor could an abbot unless he was also a priest). Knights and other specialists (rogues, bards, monks) would likely have their own organizations within the clergy which may or may not overlap with the priesthood.
Now, as much as I feel like the priesthood should in a fantasy world involve a tangible investment of power/grace, I'd love to see more diverse signs of divine favour. There are a handful as-is, like the sanctified rogue archetype or Believer's Boon, and I'm working on expanding these through homebrew.
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If we look at it from the deities' perspective, non casting priests are a bargain.
"Wait, you want to do things for me and I don't have to grant you magical abilities? Sign me up!
Alternatively...
Bryla (Divine servant of Sarenrae): M'lady, it's Kyra for you on the prayer line.
Sarenrae: Ugh again? She only calls when she wants spells. Put her through, I guess.
Bryla: Very good M'lady. You're a very merciful god.
Sarenrae: *chuckle* You know it, girl!
One of the things that actually happened historically is that a number of religious organizations (especially those with onerous vows) created parallel organizations for the local gentry to participate without actual participating. (See, for example, the Knights of Malta, who require the standard triple oath of actual (First Class) members, but are happy to accept members of the Third Class who simply think that the KM are good guys....) And of course, that's what real symphony orchestras do as well; the people who run the fundraising are not the people who play the music. Hospitals as well; there's usually some sort of advisory board headed by someone notable like the local governor or duke, but kept carefully away from any anything resembling policy-making.
I like this analogy. So the people who actually do the physical work- playing/conducting music- are expected to have the appropriate skills. And the music director would also be expected to have the appropriate skills. But the president/CEO of the organization that supports the main function of the group- playing music- is not usually a musician themselves. And the majority of the support structure- the people who keep the orchestra running behind the scenes- is not made up of musicians.
The people who decide policy and guide the organization are business people or philanthropists or patrons who are rich for other reasons. I could see a fantasy church being similar. Just because a person can play Paganini no. 9 doesn't mean they'd be good at running an organization of several hundred people.
I could see it being that the people who can do the actual work- can actually cast magic, in this case- are focused on doing that work rather than trying to get into management, as it were. Would someone who cares about the sick and can heal a broken leg with a touch be better used healing the sick or going over the ledgers at the end of the month?
Hospitals might be a closer analogy and I would grant that the people running those are expected to have more expertise in the subject matter, but even then the people at the high levels of management are more managers and less doctors. Hospitals still have CEOs and boards that run things, while a large proportion of doctors/nurses/other health professionals in the trenches do the actual work. Which may or may not be indicative of a problem with our health system, but that's a different discussion.