Is it possible to rush magical item creation multiple times? I ask this in the spirit of mundane crafting, which it seems does allow you to rush multiple times with 10 added to the DC cumulatively as indicated here:
"You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you'll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check."
It seems in RAW that you may not be able to do this multiple times with magic items:
"This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5."
I can't find anything official related to this, nor could I find anything in other questions. The reason I'm asking is I have a theoretical mythic crafter who is a demigod with over +90 on his craft checks, and it seems kinda crazy that I can only make such a small amount of progress on my items alone - 2k per day, not considering my soul forger benefit, but that each lowly punk I hire on to my team with the feat Cooperative Crafting doubles the value of progress I can make each day, as indicated here:
"You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the GP value of items that can be crafted each day."
What do you guys think? Are there clarifying resources related to this?
I'd allow it.
Remember that failing by 5 or more destroys some of your materials, so ramping up the DC does have a potential drawback.
Doomed Hero wrote: I'd allow it.
Remember that failing by 5 or more destroys some of your materials, so ramping up the DC does have a potential drawback.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, and I agree, as well. The chance of making a cursed item - or no progress at all and blowing a ton of cash on an expensive item - seem to be in line with an appropriate DC increase. Otherwise, at the point a caster gets roughly +40 on their checks, there's hardly an item in the game they can't craft perfectly with every attempt, and they all take the exact same amount of time to craft any magic item as a demigod with over double their bonus.
You may only add 5 once.
You could however do two different items a day for 4 hours each.
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James Risner wrote: You may only add 5 once.
You could however do two different items a day for 4 hours each.
Unfortunately not, do this part:
"A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the under-construction item are wasted."
Also,
"Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day."
Sad face.
Drevek wrote: James Risner wrote: You may only add 5 once.
You could however do two different items a day for 4 hours each.
Unfortunately not, do this part:
"A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the under-construction item are wasted."
Also,
"Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day."
Sad face. Arbitrary bullshit is arbitrary.
If it makes more sense to you that crafters should be able to work on a dozen things at once like DaVinci style mad tinker geniuses, just house rule that nonsense away.
Time is time and money is money. As long as the resources are tracked and checks are made, the rest is just fluff.
It's got some significant balance implications to consider. You don't need anywhere near a +40 on your checks for that to start coming into play-- a lot of key items are easy. Stat belts are CL8th, which means a Spellcraft 18 check at worst, rush at 23. Since you can take ten on it... that's easy. You can consistently rush these items at level five without a lot of investment. So at level ten you could double-rush them, at fifteen triple-rush, etc. Much, much more if you put in any kind of investment.
Managing the time a player can craft is an easy way to control their power, but the more they can speed the process up the less time they can grant-- to everybody, notably, not just the guy crafting.
I'd have to ponder how I'd rule it as a GM. It's an interesting thought.
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kestral287 wrote: It's got some significant balance implications to consider. You don't need anywhere near a +40 on your checks for that to start coming into play-- a lot of key items are easy. Stat belts are CL8th, which means a Spellcraft 18 check at worst, rush at 23. Since you can take ten on it... that's easy. You can consistently rush these items at level five without a lot of investment. So at level ten you could double-rush them, at fifteen triple-rush, etc. Much, much more if you put in any kind of investment.
Managing the time a player can craft is an easy way to control their power, but the more they can speed the process up the less time they can grant-- to everybody, notably, not just the guy crafting.
I'd have to ponder how I'd rule it as a GM. It's an interesting thought.
Yeah, I can say I'd have to level it out to some degree based on the scenario. Perhaps +5 for the first speed up with cumulative +5 increases, such that to craft at double speed is +5, triple is +15 (5 +10), quadruple is +30 (5 + 10 + 15), five times is +50 (5 + 10 + 15 +20), six times is +75 (5 + 10 + 15 + 20 + 25), etc.
Alternatively, double the cost for each multiplier of time. +5, then +15, then +30, then +60, then +120. This would require a 5 + CL + 60 cost to craft an item five times faster (5,000 GP per day), which would still take a reasonable amount of time to craft even mid-level gear.
In this case, the campaign setting would be Wrath of the Righteous, with all of us ultimately becoming level 20, Mythic Tier 10. It doesn't sit well with me hat a demigod of crafting with three primary domains and six subdomains, 100% focused on crafting from day 1 with literally no items, skills, feats, mythic abilities, class choices, etc. that are not craft oriented, and (with magic) well over +100 on craft checks would take just about as long to craft a magical item as a level 7 (when soul forgers can reduce craft times by half) tier 1 mythic crafter with 1 rank in a single craft skill. It's counter intuitive and goes against the suggested game design Paizo attempts to stick to in that, with additional ranks in craft, you get next to no benefit. You do get an increase in speed for crafting mundane items, but at the point where that starts to truly pick up you have access to the ability to craft your own Fabricate at will wondrous item that allows you to make whatever you want every six seconds, totally invalidating anything beyond the minimum necessary craft skill to make masterwork items.
More than that, I can pay a paltry daily sum to hire a few crafters with Cooperative Crafting and the right Craft Feats, and for each level 5 bum who helps me in this way, I double my craft speed. 20 levels and ten mythic tiers shouldn't have the same value as a tiny lump of daily gold.
Doomed Hero wrote: Arbitrary b&###~+! is arbitrary.
If it makes more sense to you that crafters should be able to work on a dozen things at once like DaVinci style mad tinker geniuses, just house rule that nonsense away.
Time is time and money is money. As long as the resources are tracked and checks are made, the rest is just fluff.
I absolutely agree. I think if someone wants to throw all of their time into crafting for a little while they should get rewarded for their hard work, not told, "Sorry, you worked your quota for the day and are not allowed to excel, g'bye."
As someone who makes things for people for a living sometimes, I hate how anti-crafter the rules are. They make no sense for anyone who would do these things as anything more than a hobby. And certainly, the more skilled you are at anything, the faster you can work with it, and the major improvements on your time and quality of work (and thereby money you can make) start with week one and keep going until you're at the pinnacle of a craft, and even then, if you can come up with new ideas, better styles, etc., you can foray into new markets and devise new ways to make more money.
Which also makes me hate the idea that you can't make money on things because you don't have a store. I have never, EVER needed a store to make money. So ridiculous!
Drevek wrote: Doomed Hero wrote: Arbitrary b&###~+! is arbitrary.
If it makes more sense to you that crafters should be able to work on a dozen things at once like DaVinci style mad tinker geniuses, just house rule that nonsense away.
Time is time and money is money. As long as the resources are tracked and checks are made, the rest is just fluff.
I absolutely agree. I think if someone wants to throw all of their time into crafting for a little while they should get rewarded for their hard work, not told, "Sorry, you worked your quota for the day and are not allowed to excel, g'bye."
As someone who makes things for people for a living sometimes, I hate how anti-crafter the rules are. They make no sense for anyone who would do these things as anything more than a hobby. And certainly, the more skilled you are at anything, the faster you can work with it, and the major improvements on your time and quality of work (and thereby money you can make) start with week one and keep going until you're at the pinnacle of a craft, and even then, if you can come up with new ideas, better styles, etc., you can foray into new markets and devise new ways to make more money.
Which also makes me hate the idea that you can't make money on things because you don't have a store. I have never, EVER needed a store to make money. So ridiculous! The idea of the limitations on needing a store to really make money is really more of a game balance issue. Its to keep crafter characters from having more cash than everyone else.
In actuality, its a moot point. By the time a caster gains access to Fabricate and Polymorph Any Object they have infinite money.
And that's not even touching the economy-breaking Planar Binding spells.
The way to keep high level characters from having as much money as they could possibly want is to have the GM say "we know you could be filthy rich whenever you want. That's not what this game is about. Lets please just assume that even if your character is fabulously wealthy, that you are only ever actually carrying gear equal to the standard wealth by level guidelines? Can we do that? Thanks."
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I once had a crafter who built a workshop inside a Portable Hole. He use Animate Object to staff it, and had his Valet Familiar oversee the work.
He was able to get about 36 total crafting hours a day out of it without lifting a finger himself, and could work on 4 of 5 different projects at once.
He would pretty routinely use Polymorph Any Object to just make whatever raw materials he needed and then restock the shop with them. Any specialty materials (things outside the scope of Polymorph) he could access with Teleportation or a Ring Gate who's mate was back at the party's base of operations.
He had a self-brewing alchemical lab that could crank out about 20 gallons of alchemical consumables a day. (He once used Dust of Dryness to soak up about 1000 gallons of Holy Water, and then later used it to turn a nasty temple full of demons into God's personal swimming pool.)
He could crank out about 10,000 gp worth of magic item crafting a day (doubled if he took a personal hand in things). Whatever we needed , he could make. That was his whole gimmick. He was fantasy-land's Tony Stark.
Even with that degree of manufacturing capacity, the game went fine. It became part of the narrative. The GM just stopped handing out material rewards. It was assumed that anything we found got tossed into the workshop to be sold or turned into the things we actually wanted. The players would just plan out their next level's gear in advance, and the GM would let us know when it was "done being made."
Every once in a while, the GM would just say "Throg, the Flaming Sword you wanted is on the rack in the workshop when you wake up."
What that approach did was significantly reduce the amount of time spent on bean-counting and shopping trips. The payers felt like they were getting exactly what they wanted, the GM had a great reason to actually give the players the things they want rather than resort to "of course there's a magic doubleaxe in this treasure horde! What a coincidence that is the barbarian's weapon of choice!"
Basically, it let everyone spend more time doing the fun stuff and less time arguing over what is available and how long it will take to special order things.
Drevek wrote: "no more than one magic item per day."
Sad face.
+1 Sad Face
I thought it was "no more than 8 hours a day".
James Risner wrote: Drevek wrote: "no more than one magic item per day."
Sad face.
+1 Sad Face
I thought it was "no more than 8 hours a day". Yeah, and that includes potions and scrolls. If you make a 50 GP potion or 25 GP scroll, you can no longer craft another magic item that day. That's so lame!
Doomed Hero wrote: I once had a crafter who built a workshop inside a Portable Hole. He use Animate Object to staff it, and had his Valet Familiar oversee the work.
He was able to get about 36 total crafting hours a day out of it without lifting a finger himself, and could work on 4 of 5 different projects at once.
He would pretty routinely use Polymorph Any Object to just make whatever raw materials he needed and then restock the shop with them. Any specialty materials (things outside the scope of Polymorph) he could access with Teleportation or a Ring Gate who's mate was back at the party's base of operations.
He had a self-brewing alchemical lab that could crank out about 20 gallons of alchemical consumables a day. (He once used Dust of Dryness to soak up about 1000 gallons of Holy Water, and then later used it to turn a nasty temple full of demons into God's personal swimming pool.)
He could crank out about 10,000 gp worth of magic item crafting a day (doubled if he took a personal hand in things). Whatever we needed , he could make. That was his whole gimmick. He was fantasy-land's Tony Stark.
Even with that degree of manufacturing capacity, the game went fine. It became part of the narrative. The GM just stopped handing out material rewards. It was assumed that anything we found got tossed into the workshop to be sold or turned into the things we actually wanted. The players would just plan out their next level's gear in advance, and the GM would let us know when it was "done being made."
Every once in a while, the GM would just say "Throg, the Flaming Sword you wanted is on the rack in the workshop when you wake up."
What that approach did was significantly reduce the amount of time spent on bean-counting and shopping trips. The payers felt like they were getting exactly what they wanted, the GM had a great reason to actually give the players the things they want rather than resort to "of course there's a magic doubleaxe in this treasure horde! What a coincidence that is the barbarian's weapon...
I really like this idea, and that is the kind of thing I'd like to aim for. The hands off approach allows for a lot more freedom and creativity in role-playing while saving everyone a lot of precious time.
I don't want to break anything, I want a feasible reason for our group to go from absolute nobodies to amazing demon vanquishers in two years, having money to establish keeps, rally and outfit armies, make deals with celestials and nations alike, and wage a truly epic war against Hell without the DM constantly having to hold back because, realistically, we would lose so hard our brains would kaleidoscope and we'd die alone and drooling out of the corners of our mouths, unable to fathom the horrors of the end of our world.
A smart demom army full of mythic creatures would scry out their threats, teleport onto them en masse in the hundreds, then use mythic anti-magic fields to keep us from doing shit about it while they shredded us. Without anti-magic fields, they could obliterate us with mythic save-or-die spells while binding us against teleportation. I can't make 40+ save-or-dies a round. Without some serious magic to keep them misinformed, restrict their scrying, protect our allies, ferret out corruption, detect invisibility ALL the time, block out teleportation, and protect us from magic... we would die. Demons are really smart, and unless we can take away their greatest strengths we are lost.
Normally, DM's go soft with their enemies to counteract this, or claim divine providence, or create exactly the same type of character as mine who mysteriously exists in this time of need and wants to help. But the DM shouldn't be forced to break the game to make it survivable when the players have the resources and ingenuity to manage it themselves... not to mention that this opens up opportunities for the players to strategize how to survive a true demonic invasion of their world.
Drevek, not every GM enjoys playing powerful outsiders to their full potential, not just because it could be very lethal to the players but because it's a whole different sort of tactics. Chat with your GM about whether he/she wants to up the ante in this way before you go looking for ways to survive it.
I think the restrictions on selling magic items aren't meant to represent the lack of a physical store as the lack of mercantile contacts. With or without a storefront adventuring wizards are not assumed to have the time to run a business. Plus, there's probably not enough economic demand for magic items to buy everything you could potentially produce.
Of course if you work with your GM you could certainly subvert these assumptions.
I personally find that many skills provide poor benefits for high skill investment, and more options for accelerating skill use in exchange for a higher DC would help this.
Drevek wrote: Yeah, I can say I'd have to level it out to some degree based on the scenario. Perhaps +5 for the first speed up with cumulative +5 increases, such that to craft at double speed is +5, triple is +15 (5 +10), quadruple is +30 (5 + 10 + 15), five times is +50 (5 + 10 + 15 +20), six times is +75 (5 + 10 + 15 + 20 + 25), etc. That sounds like a fair progression to me.
Legally no.
Take it up with your GM otherwise.
If it were me...well I don't really allow any crafting in the first place.
Weirdo wrote: restrictions on selling magic items aren't meant to represent the lack of a physical store It is more likely meant to limit WBL being broken beyond repair.
I meant thematically, in response to Drevek's comment:
Quote: Which also makes me hate the idea that you can't make money on things because you don't have a store. I have never, EVER needed a store to make money. So ridiculous! There's no reason something can't mechanically act as a limit on WBL and also thematically represent the limits of the magical enconomy.
Weirdo wrote: I meant thematically, in response to Drevek's comment:
Quote: Which also makes me hate the idea that you can't make money on things because you don't have a store. I have never, EVER needed a store to make money. So ridiculous! There's no reason something can't mechanically act as a limit on WBL and also thematically represent the limits of the magical enconomy.
I agree, as do the people at Paizo, who actually cite both as the reasons you can't make much from running an item shop. Actually, Paizo's idea is that first and foremost anything you sell as a crafter gets sold at half value with no profit because you can't find buyers or have to sell it to shops, and that even if you do own a shop and use downtime rules, you can only make a few gold a day from running the shop (subjective, but a truly small amount) because you go months between finding buyers.
Both could be true in certain areas, but this is where I also agree with your earlier statement about bypassing these via a DM.
For instance, that wouldn't make sense or be practical in this case: we're in a war to divert the end of the world, with armies of men and angels marching against demonic armies in an attempt to stem the tide at the breach and ultimately push it back before sealing The Worldwound. This campaign says "screw WBL" and gives you crazy ridiculous drops.
Beyond that, within our group are some of the most powerful, respected, and influential people in existence, with an extraordinary business network, the ability to set up a multitude of businesses and hire very talented, specialized talent to run and advertise them. We have access to hundreds of connections all over the world including all of the recommendations we can get from nation leaders directly through our friendships and deals, and even have extra-planar beings on our side to make special requests for access to a greater means to vanquish evil - and they have much to offer in return. Not to mention we have the capacity to sell directly to nations and create the most exquisite and legendary equipment in appearance and function in all of the mortal world. There is absolutely no reason we shouldn't be able to rake in considerable cash through a 100% custom order shop network that has no downtime.
Beyond that, we can create gates that teleport troops from one continent to ours and erect fortresses for them to safely reside in within a matter of hours (the fortreses and physical gates pre-enchantment are created via Polymorph Any Object, Fabricate is used for fine details or special materials), then enchant those fortresses with advanced protections as commissioned.
All of this can occur while churning out as many mundane cold iron weapons and normal armors a day as we can find materials for via a few magic items that allow use of Fabricate at will wielded by mages with the power and loyalty to be entrusted their use. We can find more materials via divination and have special groups using teleportation to collect ore, etc. from those locations.
In this particular case, we wouldn't have any trouble finding buyers, as we'd have nations where everyone of wealth and means would know to come to us. We also wouldn't be at lack for contacts or connections, being that we'd even have inter-planar networks capable of being set up, not to mention what we'd have on the material plane. Selling in this case would be a means to hire armies and motivate nations, rather than a way to break WBL, in order to put an end to the end of the world. In the worst areas of contact we would use unlimited use Summon Monster IX items to bring in Ghaele Azata's and Trumpet Archons to repel demons and raise morale.
Perhaps we'd even learn how to recreate or repair Wardstones. I have no idea about the later details of the campaign or if this might be part of it, but even if it is, perhaps we could learn how to craft more of them and set them in other locations. Crafting seems to have more viability, and less brokenness, in this campaign than any other; literally, without it, if the DM doesn't hold back, the world is toast. Very, very toasty toast.
Sounds like you have a store then. What's your problem?
kestral287 wrote: Sounds like you have a store then. What's your problem? Addressing the store: what good is a store that earns a few gold a day and has zero in-game impact at our level of power?
A few quick problems from above:
Even in the world outlined above, where we can build fortresses for other nations in minutes and have extraordinary networks of contacts and massive influence, we can only gain a tiny amount of gold a day from crafting per RAW.
Another is that, according to RAW, our characters can't have the motivations or means to even attempt the above, much less earning more than a paltry sum of gold, even if it's completely contradictory to the situation like it would be above.
A DM has discretion in all things, but has no guidance from the game in making a reasonable system to solve these issues. If they did take the time to make house rules for this, making those rules actually work with most of the rules in the game would require a massive overhaul of a very complex system on their part.
If you want a full understanding then please give a read to the rest of the thread, and if I confused you at any point, I apologize. There are a multitude of discussions going on about different rules and restrictions in RAW as well as theoretical situations and how they are impacted by RAW.
You can't make money out of making magic items because the game is designed for you to have a specific amount of gold/magic items at each level.
If players make more because they see a magical business opportunity, you could have a level 1 rogue as the wealthiest player on the planet, with the most expensive items on all slots and 100 Ioun Stones.
The whole gold thing is limited to keep balance, so the enemies designed for a certain level will still be challenging.
If you guys want to create a Universal Magical Econony System, good luck, it won't be easy to make it believable.
The 1000g per day and 8 hours a day rules are they way it works in the D&D/PF world. It implies that making magic items is a job like any other. If you work on more than 8hs a day you'll probably get tired and it could affect your work. Sure, we can find ways around this with magic and beings that don't sleep, but these are just the basic foundation rules that would work for any player.
If you don't follow these rules, then you'll get what you want, a universe that producess masses amount of powerfull magic items on short amount of time, and that whould blow all the other combat rules to Timbuktu. Just be carefull with what you wish.
I personally don't like the time it takes to craft magic items either. They make rules for the crafting times but didn't make rules for how long, in days, it should take for the player to level up. If you are playing an slow adventure that, with a group of elves where years pass by like days, then the crafting times won't mean much. But if you're playing a race agains armageddon adventure, then you can kiss your magic item creation feat goodbye.
I'm playing an adventure right now where we're crafting magic items on the road, and it's hell. We waste half the time calculating who's doing what and how many days we need. Soon we won't have enough time to craft anything.
I think the best way is to just speed things up, count magic creation feats as +25% WBL for that player and let them craft anything they can by WBL in between adventures.
Look at the real world...
The best phone developer/technician can build x phones a day...
Then he goes to his friend, who sells them.
The really big companies DO NOT sit 5 leaders around s table to build phones... They employ thousands of workers, who may not be as good, but they are many!
Using the Capital system from the downtime rules, you can make magical items for 1/4 the cost and sell them for 1/2 the cost.
Bacon666 wrote: Look at the real world...
The best phone developer/technician can build x phones a day...
Then he goes to his friend, who sells them.
The really big companies DO NOT sit 5 leaders around s table to build phones... They employ thousands of workers, who may not be as good, but they are many!
The comparison falls apart right there as even some kind of phone assembling demi-god would still only be able to ever make X = 1. His skill is irrelevant.
Drevek wrote: Is it possible to rush magical item creation multiple times? I ask this in the spirit of mundane crafting, which it seems does allow you to rush multiple times with 10 added to the DC cumulatively as indicated here:
"You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you'll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check."
It seems in RAW that you may not be able to do this multiple times with magic items:
"This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5."
I can't find anything official related to this, nor could I find anything in other questions. The reason I'm asking is I have a theoretical mythic crafter who is a demigod with over +90 on his craft checks, and it seems kinda crazy that I can only make such a small amount of progress on my items alone - 2k per day, not considering my soul forger benefit, but that each lowly punk I hire on to my team with the feat Cooperative Crafting doubles the value of progress I can make each day, as indicated here:
"You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the GP value of items that can be crafted each day."
What do you guys think? Are there clarifying resources related to this?
Since we are in the rules section I will tell you that you can not keep speeding up the item by adding +5's.
My non-rules statement: As a GM you have to remember that creating magic items is very easy, and then you have to decide do you have a "too fast" limit. If you don't mind high priced items being created in a very short amount of time then allow it without limit. If you want the items to be created faster, but not too fast then put a limit on how many times the +5 can be added.
If you and your players can have fun with much faster crafting time then ignore the rules.
edit: If you are not the GM then you need to remember that some rules are in place for balance reasons, and no amount of +'s is going to change that rule no matter how much sense it might make in real life.
Drevek wrote: Is it possible to rush magical item creation multiple times? I ask this in the spirit of mundane crafting, which it seems does allow you to rush multiple times with 10 added to the DC cumulatively as indicated here:
"You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you'll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check."
It seems in RAW that you may not be able to do this multiple times with magic items:
"This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5."
I can't find anything official related to this, nor could I find anything in other questions. The reason I'm asking is I have a theoretical mythic crafter who is a demigod with over +90 on his craft checks, and it seems kinda crazy that I can only make such a small amount of progress on my items alone - 2k per day, not considering my soul forger benefit, but that each lowly punk I hire on to my team with the feat Cooperative Crafting doubles the value of progress I can make each day, as indicated here:
"You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the GP value of items that can be crafted each day."
What do you guys think? Are there clarifying resources related to this?
RAW, you can speed up mundane crafting only once. In 3.5, you could speed up mundane crafting multiple times.
PF limits magical crafting to one speed up. It also has a familiar archetype to assist, and a feat to assist. In 3.5, you could get a feat for 75% time, and an epic feat for 10% time. [The epic feat was craft 10,000/day, and I think you could use the 75% feat with it.]
/cevah
With a Blackwick Cauldron a Potion Brewer could craft up to 24 CL 1 first level potions, or any other combination that resulted in a total value of less than 1200 gold per day.
Why oh why we don't seem to have a magic item desk that does this for scrolls I have no flipping clue.
Doomed Hero wrote: Drevek wrote: James Risner wrote: You may only add 5 once.
You could however do two different items a day for 4 hours each.
Unfortunately not, do this part:
"A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the under-construction item are wasted."
Also,
"Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day."
Sad face. Arbitrary b~%$%~*+ is arbitrary.
If it makes more sense to you that crafters should be able to work on a dozen things at once like DaVinci style mad tinker geniuses, just house rule that nonsense away.
Time is time and money is money. As long as the resources are tracked and checks are made, the rest is just fluff. Could you technically get around this arbitrary bull shit by crafting 4-hour or less item first, then putting in 4 hours on a two-day item and finishing it the next day? [at which point you could run a cycle where you put in 4 hours of work on a two-day item, and finish it the day after before starting another later that day.]
Would you mind explaining me how it's more broken for scrolls than potions? Assuming the same GP limitations as the Cauldron has.
If the character were crafting high level scrolls he wouldn't need to be able to craft more of them, higher level scrolls take more time to craft than lower ones. With the GP limit cut in half to account for the price difference between potions and scrolls, even 4th level potions wouldn't function with this theoretical 'Blackwick Desk'
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote: Would you mind explaining me how it's more broken for scrolls than potions? Assuming the same GP limitations as the Cauldron has.
If the character were crafting high level scrolls he wouldn't need to be able to craft more of them, higher level scrolls take more time to craft than lower ones. With the GP limit cut in half to account for the price difference between potions and scrolls, even 4th level potions wouldn't function with this theoretical 'Blackwick Desk'
Scrolls are much less limited than potions as to what kind of spell can be placed on them. They're also a lot cheaper to make, so using the same formula, you're talking about double the amount of scrolls that could be made.
Indeed, though I wasn't expecting the same formula. If the item is intended to be a parallel it would be capable of producing the same number of items in the same proportional quantities.
It's true scrolls can have different spells in them, but they're also more limited. Limited people can use them, you can't 'accelerate' their casting with resources the way you can for potions, and they don't benefit from Alchemist Discoveries and/or Alchemical Allocation.
Lastly [and this is a big one for parties that REALLY want to crank out the consumables] such a desk would be incompatible with the 'Witch's Brew' Major Hex [which allows the creation of two potions with each potion made and stacks with the Blackwick Cauldron as far as I can tell.]
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kestral287 wrote: It's got some significant balance implications to consider. You don't need anywhere near a +40 on your checks for that to start coming into play-- a lot of key items are easy. Stat belts are CL8th, which means a Spellcraft 18 check at worst, rush at 23. Since you can take ten on it... that's easy. You can consistently rush these items at level five without a lot of investment. So at level ten you could double-rush them, at fifteen triple-rush, etc. Much, much more if you put in any kind of investment.
Managing the time a player can craft is an easy way to control their power, but the more they can speed the process up the less time they can grant-- to everybody, notably, not just the guy crafting.
I'd have to ponder how I'd rule it as a GM. It's an interesting thought.
While it's not allowed by the rules, I'd have no issue with it myself. Generally speaking it's better for PCs to be over WBL than under, and due to the exponential cost increases of items, wealth will still be the most limiting aspect of all, as always.
kyrt-ryder wrote: With a Blackwick Cauldron a Potion Brewer could craft up to 24 CL 1 first level potions, or any other combination that resulted in a total value of less than 1200 gold per day.
Why oh why we don't seem to have a magic item desk that does this for scrolls I have no flipping clue.
So 'flipping' make one.
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