Core Only - How does it change things?


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Silver Crusade 2/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:
Undone wrote:

Druidzilla is the definitive winner from core.

Lion animal with light armor prof and power attack is a barbarian combatant. Built in pounce and it's 100% disposable.

"Please hand in your sprig of holly and mistletoe. You can leave your druid membership card on the counter."

Then write in a mechanic for that. Until then, he's 100% correct that animal companions are fire and forget cruise missiles if necessary.

4/5 *

Really? No one sees forcing a friend and trusted companion to die for you because you're too lazy to do it yourself as an evil act? There is a mechanic for that...

4/5 *

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PRD wrote:

Ex-Druids

A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).

Sovereign Court 5/5

We had a saying in the military:

You can do anything once.

Closely related:

You can do anything your career can handle.

Yes, the druid can callously order his trusting AC to a suicide mission. That doesn't mean there are no consequences.

1/5

deusvult wrote:


Pretty bad application of fundamentals then, to rely on tactic that has a 50/50 chance of success. Much better to use a potion of gaseous form and up your chances significantly. (by the time grappling is a death sentence, you can afford them, and it's only your own fault if you don't have them) That's just one example. One could also use that smart play I hinted at earlier, and actually use some teamwork in tough situations rather. Much more fun to struggle to overcome a hardship than to never face the hardship in the first place, no? If you don't agree, then that's fine. Stick to vanilla, and stop telling people who like Core they're BadWrong?

I'm fairly sure if you're relying on a potion which eats two full turns to get out you're going to lose that fight.

Scarab Sages 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
graywulfe wrote:


To the second post, I fail to see any specific context there. He directly correlated wanting more options with not being a roleplayer but rather a rollplayer. Perhaps there is a language barrier there I am failing to see past.

Sometimes a person substitutes one word for another by accident or for lack of awareness (there/their being most common to my vision, but -ole and -oll words as well - and pallet/palate).

And ESL could also have a part.

Of course, he could be a secret Amber player and all of Pathfinders to them are rollplayers.

Silver Crusade 2/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
Really? No one sees forcing a friend and trusted companion to die for you because you're too lazy to do it yourself as an evil act? There is a mechanic for that...

I've never seen this enforced. That makes it a non-rule. Give the druid some temp neg levels or SOMETHING.

Silver Crusade 2/5

deusvult wrote:

We had a saying in the military:

You can do anything once.

Closely related:

You can do anything your career can handle.

Yes, the druid can callously order his trusting AC to a suicide mission. That doesn't mean there are no consequences.

Actually, there aren't. At least not in RAW. I've seen animal companions named "Meat Shield" and no one batted an eye. Except me, but whatever.

Sovereign Court 5/5

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David Bowles wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Really? No one sees forcing a friend and trusted companion to die for you because you're too lazy to do it yourself as an evil act? There is a mechanic for that...
I've never seen this enforced. That makes it a non-rule. Give the druid some temp neg levels or SOMETHING.

There is that rather severe "something" he quoted right from the CRB. (you don't get another AC to replace it, oh or any more spells either. Ever.)

4/5 *

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I supposed you missed the "ceases to revere nature" portion of the RAW on how to become an ex-druid? Treating said nature, in the form of your AC, as disposable certainly qualifies in my books.

1/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
PRD wrote:

Ex-Druids

A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).

Have you ever sent an animal into combat? Well clearly that alone forces you to revoke your druid membership.

The fact that there is no stress IN REAL LIFE if they die doesn't mean in character I don't care (I even got to do NOOOO MUFASA! when my first animal companion died) it just means I know they don't matter. He came back as Scar. This is GM's hating on the FACT that druid animal companions are expendable in PFS.

4/5 *

David Bowles wrote:
I've never seen this enforced. That makes it a non-rule.

This is a terribly myopic thing to say, don't you think? Do you travel so far that you have the pulse of PFS world-wide?

Silver Crusade 2/5

deusvult wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Really? No one sees forcing a friend and trusted companion to die for you because you're too lazy to do it yourself as an evil act? There is a mechanic for that...
I've never seen this enforced. That makes it a non-rule. Give the druid some temp neg levels or SOMETHING.
There is that rather severe "something" he quoted right from the CRB. (you don't get another AC to replace it, oh or any more spells either. Ever.)

Until next PFS session, that is.

5/5 5/55/55/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Stratton wrote:
I promise you this: if a person comes to me with a concern and I say, "well, you can try X" and they say, "that won't work," and then I say, "well, how about Y" and they say, "that won't work, either" there are only so many suggestions I can make before I conclude that perhaps this person really isn't serious about finding solutions

And if your solutions simply aren't workable? There's only so many solutions relying on a larger player base and multiple venues someone can offer before I conclude that the person really doesn't understand the situation.

4/5 *

Combat is one thing - I'd fight to protect my friends, wouldn't you? Being used as a one-use minesweeper is what was originally postulated, though, and it is another thing entirely.

Silver Crusade 2/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
I've never seen this enforced. That makes it a non-rule.

This is a terribly myopic thing to say, don't you think? Do you travel so far that you have the pulse of PFS world-wide?

It would be much more consistently enforced if there was a mathematical detriment to it, instead of a GM-dependent if-come-maybe detriment that will not be enforceable in the next session.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I currently have a barbarian/sorceress/dragon disciple that I've played up to level 10 without using anything outside the CRB. I came close to dying in one season 5 scenario from some unlucky poison saves where I rolled exceptionally low and took max con damage twice. I had to continue raging a couple rounds after the fight till my party healed me enough not do die when I stopped.
Anyway, I guess my point is, the players who are making powerful combat beasts and roflstomping everything will continue to do so. Core only has less options but can still easily succeed at all the current scenarios.

One thing I like about core is that it will make random items on chronicles more exciting. Boon/item picking might become a thing as players look at games they played before and think I could make a character to use Gamin or something like that then play those specific games to get them.

4/5 *

David Bowles wrote:
Until next PFS session, that is.

If you want to spend 2500gp per session on a one-shot cruise missile, go for it.

Silver Crusade 2/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Until next PFS session, that is.
If you want to spend 2500gp per session on a one-shot cruise missile, go for it.

Only at your table. Maybe if I played at your table 100% of the time, I wouldn't hate ACs so much. But clearly, that has not happened.

Sovereign Court 5/5

David Bowles wrote:
deusvult wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Really? No one sees forcing a friend and trusted companion to die for you because you're too lazy to do it yourself as an evil act? There is a mechanic for that...
I've never seen this enforced. That makes it a non-rule. Give the druid some temp neg levels or SOMETHING.
There is that rather severe "something" he quoted right from the CRB. (you don't get another AC to replace it, oh or any more spells either. Ever.)
Until next PFS session, that is.

Where's the RAW on that?

The GM is allowed to say you're now, immediately, an ex-druid, according to the CRB.

Ah, I get it. Atonement makes it all ok again on the chronicle.

*shrug* As GM Lamplighter said.. if you wanna spend that kind of gold, go for it. There's definitely no justification for a GM to say you can't have your Nth atonement, since you're clearly not *really* sorry and you're just going to do it again.

But OTOH, if you're relying on atonement to just make it all ok, the GM *CAN* mark you down for evil act(s), and that too will need to be dealt with.

4/5 *

I suppose it depends on when you "use up" your animal companion - being an ex-druid for the rest of the session may be a problem.

1/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Combat is one thing - I'd fight to protect my friends, wouldn't you? Being used as a one-use minesweeper is what was originally postulated, though, and it is another thing entirely.

So I assume you'd fall the paladin for refusing to volunteer for mine sweeping duty since it endangers whoever is doing it right? Since clearly letting someone else get blown up while he watches is alignment breaking.

Quote:

Where's the RAW on that?

The GM is allowed to say you're now, immediately, an ex-druid, according to the CRB.

I'm fairly sure this violates the don't be a jerk rule.

Silver Crusade 2/5

deusvult wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
deusvult wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Really? No one sees forcing a friend and trusted companion to die for you because you're too lazy to do it yourself as an evil act? There is a mechanic for that...
I've never seen this enforced. That makes it a non-rule. Give the druid some temp neg levels or SOMETHING.
There is that rather severe "something" he quoted right from the CRB. (you don't get another AC to replace it, oh or any more spells either. Ever.)
Until next PFS session, that is.

Where's the RAW on that?

The GM is allowed to say you're now, immediately, an ex-druid, according to the CRB.

Ah, I get it. Atonement makes it all ok again on the chronicle.

*shrug* As GM Lamplighter said.. if you wanna spend that kind of gold, go for it.

As I said, I have never even seen this considered. Many GMs I know aren't confrontational enough to do this. Great for you guys, I suppose.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Undone wrote:


Quote:

Where's the RAW on that?

The GM is allowed to say you're now, immediately, an ex-druid, according to the CRB.

I'm fairly sure this violates the don't be a jerk rule.

Potentially, sure. If it's done as a "gotcha" because the AC died, obviously.

However it is an option in the GM toolbox for players who are in their opinion legitimately abusing the line delineating what is "druidly".

Silver Crusade 2/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
I suppose it depends on when you "use up" your animal companion - being an ex-druid for the rest of the session may be a problem.

You are also assuming something happens to the animal companion. Do they still get punished if the animal solos everything? Certainly possible in season 0-3. I mean is it really putting the thing in danger if the BBEG needs a "20" to hit it?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
graywulfe wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
LazarX wrote:


It is an everyone wins situation.

Except if you want to play one mode and the only games available are the other mode.

or maybe the game store only hosts D+D 5th, or GURPS, or HERO, ad nauseum. it's a choice for players and DM's who want something other than a campaign full of freak races and freak classes.

if you've been one of the ones complaining of "rules bloat", or the expense of buying suppleents, this is the campaign for you.

And after a post like this, "...campaign full of freak races and freak classes", people wonder why some of us have concerns about the change.

Seriously how hard would it be for you to stop being insulting to people who like things you don't?

I never said that I disliked any of the new classes or races. I'm playing a grandfathered aasimar oracle myself. I'm not particularly fond of the fact that the number one reason for playing a Samsaran is for it's use as a cheesing vehicle.

But there is something to be said for a campaign that reflects a more coherent simplfied choice of races and classes, and the folks at Paizo recognize that. Now some folks may be worried that their local GM will just go and chuck off PFS main in favor of core. I don't see it as that likely a problem but some local mileage will vary.

But that's not a reason to withold this choice from those who might want to experience it.

Some of you folks need to learn to separate my opinions about mechanics from my opinion (which is generally none) about the people who do enjoy them. In other words, if you're taking my opinions personally, then you have a need for some critical self-examination.

4/5 *

Enforcing the parts of RAW that are unpopular with the player is not "being a jerk".

Your analogy is not useful - if the paladin *forced* another PC to check for traps instead, you'd better believe they would fall.

The druid's animal companion is not just another set of stats to make you "win" Pathfinder; your connection to the divine actually grants you magical powers. Here you have a physical manifestation of that divinity following you around, rubbing its head against you and cuddling you at night, and you don't think betraying its trust and sacrificing it to save on buying a wand of trap detection wouldn't lose your powers?

Sorry that some people seem to play in areas where GMs are this... lax. It obviously develops bad habits.

Sovereign Court 5/5

David Bowles wrote:

As I said, I have never even seen this considered. Many GMs I know aren't confrontational enough to do this. Great for you guys, I suppose.

To be honest, I haven't seen a player of a druid treat his AC like a disposable tool. But you're the one who brought it up as being legitimate in PFS and without consequence.

Hence the discussion since.

Silver Crusade 2/5

"The druid's animal companion is not just another set of stats to make you "win" Pathfinder"

I must have been in a coma these last few years, because that sure seems like what they are used for in practice. The pouncing large cat gets FIVE attacks.

Silver Crusade 2/5

deusvult wrote:
David Bowles wrote:

As I said, I have never even seen this considered. Many GMs I know aren't confrontational enough to do this. Great for you guys, I suppose.

To be honest, I haven't seen a player of a druid treat his AC like a disposable tool. But you're the one who brought it up as being legitimate in PFS and without consequence.

Hence the discussion since.

Does the druid still get punished if the cat kills everything despite being treated like a tool? If so, where is the line?

4/5 *

And of course, you have to use them all, every round, no matter what, correct?

1/5

David Bowles wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
I suppose it depends on when you "use up" your animal companion - being an ex-druid for the rest of the session may be a problem.
You are also assuming something happens to the animal companion. Do they still get punished if the animal solos everything? Certainly possible in season 0-3. I mean is it really putting the thing in danger if the BBEG needs a "20" to hit it?

My poor animal did this in a season 3 3-7 playing at high tier. He pulled every single mob in the adventure into a single fight and won. The entire table was laughing as we ran through the adventure like a bunch of wild animals. (2 Wildshaped and 3 animal companions. The bad guys with hostages wouldn't bother negotiating with tigers.)

It's much more likely that the animal solos the adventure than that it dies. The only death my AC's had were to a dominated optimized dwarven fighter swinging for +30s and crit for over 100 points of damage. The second death (of Scar) was to Krune's Max/Emp Horrid wilting Which isn't exactly "stopping my reverence of nature" It just infuriates me enough to detonate my fire seeds.

Quote:
Sorry that some people seem to play in areas where GMs are this... lax. It obviously develops bad habits.

Alternatively you're adversarial GMing is being a Jerk. It's a matter of perspective. An animal companion dying in combat doesn't effect your reverence of nature. Burning a forest? Letting a group of people lobster knife fight and get away with it? That's it. Bad luck does not reverence revoke.

Silver Crusade 2/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
And of course, you have to use them all, every round, no matter what, correct?

From what I've seen, pretty much. I don't think that druids optimize their pets to NOT use them to dominate combats. Mithril barding, some bestiary feats, and they are good to go.

4/5 *

The line *should* be drawn by the player, roleplaying a devout lover of nature properly. If they don't, it is up to the GM to remind them of the possible consequences.

Silver Crusade 2/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
The line *should* be drawn by the player, roleplaying a devout lover of nature properly. If they don't, it is up to the GM to remind them of the possible consequences.

I think the heart of the matter is that most GMs probably know that most scenarios aren't a significant threat to an animal companion. This brings about the lax attitude with all parties and people stop paying attention. I mean the first thing the cat usually does is attack an NPC FIVE times with no TWF penalty because of the magic of natural attacks.

Scarab Sages 5/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Enforcing the parts of RAW that are unpopular with the player is not "being a jerk".

Your analogy is not useful - if the paladin *forced* another PC to check for traps instead, you'd better believe they would fall.

The druid's animal companion is not just another set of stats to make you "win" Pathfinder; your connection to the divine actually grants you magical powers. Here you have a physical manifestation of that divinity following you around, rubbing its head against you and cuddling you at night, and you don't think betraying its trust and sacrificing it to save on buying a wand of trap detection wouldn't lose your powers?

Sorry that some people seem to play in areas where GMs are this... lax. It obviously develops bad habits.

When people use summon nature ally to do the same sorts of suicidal activities, do you enforce this as well

what about non-druids and summon monster spells?

4/5 *

Again, I'm sorry that your GMs don't work that hard to make the scenario interesting just because someone brought a lion. Every druid we've had who has wrecked multiple adventures has been talked to, about leaving something for everyone else to do. They all get it when it is discussed openly and honestly.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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David,

You're a cool guy, and I like a lot of the times where you weigh in on a thread. You're smart, and your posts are well-reasoned.

But there are a couple of topics where your experiences are very different from other people's. In your neck of the woods, druids treat their animal companions as disposable class features, and the GMs all are okay with that.

That's not my experience at all. Nor Scott's. Nor deusvult's. Nor the experience of others on this thread. Druids don't act like that, and if they did, the GMs would enforce alignment penalties.

You've admitted that you "hate" animal companions. I'd like to suggest that you talk to your local Venture Captain about this situation. You're obviously bothered by the way certain GMs and certain players are playing the game, and your VC might have some advice.

EDIT: You've expressed your frustration in the general PFS threads as well. I don't think this is unique to CORE mode, and I'd advise us to move this over to a different thread, rather than derail this one further.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Really it's not that much different than a 2 handed power attack guy killing everything. Well, other than the fact it is a CLASS FEATURE making all the other martials pointless.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Undone wrote:


I'm fairly sure if you're relying on a potion which eats two full turns to get out you're going to lose that fight.

Wrong. I've been in at least one scenario where I got out of Black Tentacles via a potion of gaseous form and my character was responsible for us winning the fight.

Being inconvenienced for 2 rounds does NOT automatically equal a death sentence, let alone a TPK. Most of the bad guys can't actually put out huge amounts of damage each round.

Teamwork, preparation, smart play, decent builds and a reasonably balanced team will overcome at least nearly all of the scenarios. There are possibly one or two exceptions.

Now, it is DEFINITELY going to take some time to train both players and GMs to work within the new paradigm. Good thing we're all starting from level 1 again and so will have that time.

Hmm. I just thought of one potential down side. This may increase general player skill sufficiently that BasePFS becomes even more trivial :-).

Silver Crusade 2/5

Chris Mortika wrote:

David,

You're a cool guy, and I like a lot of the times where you weigh in on a thread. You're smart, and your posts are well-reasoned.

But there are a couple of topics where your experiences are very different from other people's. In your neck of the woods, druids treat their animal companions as disposable class features, and the GMs all are okay with that.

That's not my experience at all. Nor Scott's. Nor deusvult's. Nor the experience of others on this thread. Druids don't act like that, and if they did, the GMs would enforce alignment penalties.

You've admitted that you "hate" animal companions. I'd like to suggest that you talk to your local Venture Captain about this situation. You're obviously bothered by the way certain GMs and certain players are playing the game, and your VC might have some advice.

EDIT: You've expressed your frustration in the general PFS threads as well. I don't think this is unique to CORE mode, and I'd advise us to move this over to a different thread, rather than derail this one further.

It's really just a subset of the claims of "balance" and "making scenarios hard again". With animal companions, neither of these are happening. The druid furor has mostly subsided at my tables. However, I'm sure they'll be the hotness in CORE once again. I'll pass.

Silver Crusade 2/5

pauljathome wrote:
Undone wrote:


I'm fairly sure if you're relying on a potion which eats two full turns to get out you're going to lose that fight.

Wrong. I've been in at least one scenario where I got out of Black Tentacles via a potion of gaseous form and my character was responsible for us winning the fight.

Being inconvenienced for 2 rounds does NOT automatically equal a death sentence, let alone a TPK. Most of the bad guys can't actually put out huge amounts of damage each round.

Teamwork, preparation, smart play, decent builds and a reasonably balanced team will overcome at least nearly all of the scenarios. There are possibly one or two exceptions.

Now, it is DEFINITELY going to take some time to train both players and GMs to work within the new paradigm. Good thing we're all starting from level 1 again and so will have that time.

Hmm. I just thought of one potential down side. This may increase general player skill sufficiently that BasePFS becomes even more trivial :-).

This is true. Gaseous form potions are quite useful. Even in non-CORE.

1/5

Chris Mortika wrote:
You've admitted that you "hate" animal companions. I'd like to suggest that you talk to your local Venture Captain about this situation. You're obviously bothered by the way certain GMs and certain players are playing the game, and your VC might have some advice.

I'd just like to point out that basically animal companions are the most powerful single class feature in the game (besides the leadership). Math demonstrates this. If you don't like over powered things the animal companion will by default be something you dislike.

Quote:
That's not my experience at all. Nor Scott's. Nor deusvult's. Nor the experience of others on this thread. Druids don't act like that, and if they did, the GMs would enforce alignment penalties.

The thing is I don't treat him as disposable in game either. He get's heals from the wand, more buffs than my rothgar did (My druid), and the first death was to a dominated PC with the second death (Scar) being freeking Krune.

Neither death bothered me after game because I know they're expendable. It's not something I particularly even think about in game. I'd rather he not die but if he does I know he'll be back with a new name. Besides Gozreh supports both life and death as natural. It's not as though he'd have a problem with an animal dying in combat. He doesn't get used as a mine sweeper any more than my barbarian does and being at the front of the group doesn't automatically mean you're a mine sweeper.

5/5

pauljathome wrote:
Undone wrote:


I'm fairly sure if you're relying on a potion which eats two full turns to get out you're going to lose that fight.

Wrong. I've been in at least one scenario where I got out of Black Tentacles via a potion of gaseous form and my character was responsible for us winning the fight.

Being inconvenienced for 2 rounds does NOT automatically equal a death sentence, let alone a TPK. Most of the bad guys can't actually put out huge amounts of damage each round.

Side question: Why 2 rounds? You still have a move action and a standard action while grappled...

Pull potion with one hand (move)
Drink potion (standard)
5' float up (5' step with a fly speed)

Silver Crusade 2/5

Why would a druid ever use their AC for minesweeping when they get a ton of summon spells as another class feature? When I say fire-and-forget, I mean against an NPC foe. An NPC foe, by the way, that the math says the AC will likely shred trivially. Where does god-mode end, and disposable begin? If the animal does somehow die, just point out that is massacred the last 200 NPCs you sent it after. I think it's hard to cause a druid to fall with those kinds of numbers.

1/5

Kevin Ingle wrote:


Side question: Why 2 rounds? You still have a move action and a standard action while grappled...

Pull potion with one hand (move)
Drink potion (standard)
5' float up (5' step with a fly speed)

You need to dismiss (Can you even dismiss a potion?) which is a standard and with a 10 foot fly speed there's a strong chance you cannot get out and revert in one turn. It may eat as many as 3 turns.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Undone wrote:
Kevin Ingle wrote:


Side question: Why 2 rounds? You still have a move action and a standard action while grappled...

Pull potion with one hand (move)
Drink potion (standard)
5' float up (5' step with a fly speed)

You need to dismiss (Can you even dismiss a potion?) which is a standard and with a 10 foot fly speed there's a strong chance you cannot get out and revert in one turn. It may eat as many as 3 turns.

Yeah, that's fine. Just drags things out.

5/5 *****

deusvult wrote:

I think people saying rogues are losers in Core don't understand what rogues aren't supposed to revolve around their sneak attack.

In a world where rogues are the kings of skills and are the only ones with access to trapfinding... that's a world in which they'll shine.

Rogues are far from the kings of skills in Core. Wizards and Bards will still easily outclass them while also having far more in and out of combat tricks.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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What is this "making scenarios hard again?" I never understood this. Go play a core season zero and tell me it has challenging combats with its 1st level warrior mooks with straight 10s for stats and nothing but a short sword and padded armor. And the tier 4-5 version just had 3 more warrior levels. Old scenarios were easy when they first came out. Core is supposed to be about reducing the money and rules barriers for entry of new players as well as letting old players be nostalgic. It was never claimed to be an attempt to balance or make anything more difficult.

Silver Crusade 2/5

gnoams wrote:
What is this "making scenarios hard again?" I never understood this. Go play a core season zero and tell me it has challenging combats with its 1st level warrior mooks with straight 10s for stats and nothing but a short sword and padded armor. And the tier 4-5 version just had 3 more warrior levels. Old scenarios were easy when they first came out. Core is supposed to be about reducing the money and rules barriers for entry of new players as well as letting old players be nostalgic. It was never claimed to be an attempt to balance or make anything more difficult.

I've just heard some talk about "getting rid of power creep".

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